Smoking. Cracked ring...??? What to do

[Paso One]

I'd get them started right away.

 Document everything that was / is done. Get the oil sample asap.  (you )

Start negotiating the bill fresh when it is sitting outside running.

Marc when it comes out of the shop all fixed and ready to go both sides at that point know what was needed to be done

and have a lot better idea whos fault it was if anyones.

 I think  if Williams was wrong they will be more than likely to own up to it.

Owning up to it at this point might be too costly.

If the first location had of fixed it, it might have cost you the same $4500.

 I think your better off negotiating after it is fixed.

Way to many unknowns and guesses now.  I'd prefer to argue FACTS.

[Chopper Scott]

You are right on Paso. The best of all the posts so far. nobody knows until it's fixed.

[artvonne]

  Why a new head, cant they repair a valve anymore? Or maybe they can, maybe that $900 head theyll charge you for will just be your head fixed with a shot of green paint.

  And why fix it now? If they want to stick up for Montgomery so bad, why con you into fixing a motor they said was not worth fixing? I would really ask them to justify that one. Why stop at $4500, when you could have a fully overhauled motor for twice as much?

  No, I think you are maybe heading down a path of throwing good money after bad. They need to fix it on their nickle now IMHO, no more stories. If not, I think you should arrange to have it towed (using coach net) to Gene? The guy up the road that was mentioned earlier? At the very least they need to give a price set in stone thats fair for what youve gone through, and not a penny more, no more wait and see after we pull off the head and drop the pan BS.

  I feel your pain Marc, I know I couldnt have kept my cool this long.

  

  

[thejumpsuitman]

So are you saying this repair would have cost $4500 if done properly at the first place? If so, then maybe applying the money spent there to the repairs done in Alabama would be OK less the tow bill. OTOH, if there was additional damage done, or other expense incurred (tow bills, hotels, loss of income, etc) then that's another story. Looks like to me the second repair should be on WW since you paid the first time in good faith that the repairs were satisfactory completed. Either way this definitely leaves a mark..for WW and for you.

Boyce

From the beginning I didn't have any problem with paying the repair bill.  My problem is that the diagnosis was not done properly and 10 days of my life were totally wasted. 

I really don't think any other damage was done.  The oil was over by 1 gallon with diesel.  According to Clifford, that was not enough to cause any damage.

[thejumpsuitman]

...Back to Montgomery. Does it really cost $2100 to R&R an injector and run the rack? ...
  

The $2,100 is what they are saying I owe now, not what they charged me in Montgomery.  The bill from Montgomery was about $1,200.  But they didn't do anything of value except get me a new exhaust pipe.  They charged me about $700 to install the injector and run the rack.  They said they knocked a little off because it didn't turn out so well. 

[RickB]

Marc,
This is a question that needs to be asked. Do you have a remote oil reservoir? One of those oil storage reservoirs, usually mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment that holds about 2 gallons?    I have, over the years, probably left the petcock open on mine after stopping for fuel or in the morning after a long drive I have started to add a couple quarts and ended up getting distracted and forgot the darn thing was open.
Any chance that happened here?

Sorry but that would explain the mystery oil level.
Slow to anger and a good eye on an ending that you would like to see happen while you're halfway through it is usually a good plan in these situations. Angry squeaky wheels don't always get greased.
Prayer helps too.
RB

[artvonne]

Angry squeaky wheels don't always get greased.
Prayer helps too.
RB

  Plus one on the Prayer. But God said not to sin in anger, but didnt say we couldnt get angry. In fact He said to raise up like Lions.

  Sometimes a little controlled anger in front of customers is enough to get the point across.

  The point here is Marc is getting screwed, IMHO. Williams would have come off much better if they just hadnt said the oil didnt have fuel. Its just a point of contrition. An "I dont know" or a "maybe" would have smoothed the waters much better than than calling Marc a liar or a moron, which is what they insued by saying it didnt have fuel in it. Then there is the diagnosis. I have worked on everything from airplanes to outboard motors, and more than a few diesels. I just cant understand how you can screw around blowing thousands of dollars of someones hard earned money, and still say you dont know whats wrong. Especially on an engine thats been around 80 some years without any real design changes.

  Here is what I think. The shop in Montgomery didnt want to work on it, didnt have a mechanic on duty that really knew Detroits or didnt wanna workon it, so they threw it at a rookie and screwed with it and threw it back, figuring it would make it far enough away they could wash their hands of it. When it came back, they said it wasnt worth fixing (without actually being able to say whats wrong with it) and sent it off again.

  Why they wanted it towed into Atlanta is anyones guess. Maybe just to get it back so they could say it wasnt anything they did. Without anyone around to see what they found, who can argue? Your word against theirs? If you believe Marc cant read a dipstick then maybe you side with Williams. If you think the head they havnt pulled is junk before they see it, then maybe you side with Williams. If you think its normal to blow $2000 replacing an injector and diagnosing an engine problem, only to tell you they still dont know whats wrong, maybe you side with Williams.

  All I know is if $700 to R$R an injector and run the rack is appropriate, I better learn to do more of my own work. Can you iagine if they needed to pull all 8? Wow, half the price of a whole new engine just to tune one??

  OTOH, I think Marc should post the invoice from Montgomery so we have something more than he said she said. I hate bad mouthing a business if its not 100% just.

[thejumpsuitman]

Marc,
This is a question that needs to be asked. Do you have a remote oil reservoir? One of those oil storage reservoirs, usually mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment that holds about 2 gallons?    I have, over the years, probably left the petcock open on mine after stopping for fuel or in the morning after a long drive I have started to add a couple quarts and ended up getting distracted and forgot the darn thing was open.
Any chance that happened here?

I have never even heard of a remote oil reservoir.  But even if there was one and it was left open, it would not explain the extremely watery oil.

I am actually not very concerned about the fuel in the oil in terms of engine damage.  Like I said before, when I noticed it, I called Clifford and he told me that a gallon was not enough to cause any damage.  

The only thing at stake with diesel being in the oil is that this is the main reason the tow truck was called in.  The presence of fuel in the oil would justify the tow, landing the responsibility for the tow bill squarely on W.W.Williams since they sent me off like that after I asked them to change my oil in Montgomery.  If there was no fuel in the oil, I was just a panicky customer who probably could have driven in.

And YES, indeed I do believe in prayer.  I will be on my knees tonight asking God to move on the hearts of those who are in charge there.  I would ask that you pray for me as well.

Thanks,
Marc

[thejumpsuitman]

Angry squeaky wheels don't always get greased.
Prayer helps too.
RB

  
  Here is what I think. The shop in Montgomery didnt want to work on it, didnt have a mechanic on duty that really knew Detroits or didnt wanna workon it, so they threw it at a rookie and screwed with it and threw it back, figuring it would make it far enough away they could wash their hands of it. When it came back, they said it wasnt worth fixing (without actually being able to say whats wrong with it) and sent it off again.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  

As to what they charged me, I tried to clear that up in a post just before this one.  The $2,100 is not what Montgomery charged me, it is what Atlanta says I now owe them.  This includes the cost of the tow ($975).  The rest they say is labor.  

Montgomery charged me $700 for the injector and running the rack and about $400 to replace a broken exhaust pipe.  

[thejumpsuitman]

This is what my Montgomery invoice says verbatim...

Complaint:

White smoke from exhaust, Engine miss on right bank, high idle inop, misc.

Cause:

Injector right bank R&R Exhaust Leak

Correction:

Pulled air cleaner off to access the intake.  Could not.
Moved bed and floor panels.  Removed intake and #3 injector.
Installed new injector and set rack.  Injector height was set at 1.470.
Installed all removed items.  Test drove engine.
Removed exhaust elbow from engine.  Had to have an elbow made up.
Installed new elbow and verified repairs.
Could not troubleshoot electrical system.  Did not have the means to do so.
If while attempting to start unit hold switch down for approx. 10 secs.  unit should start.
System does not have a high idle switch.

Order subtotal  $1,076.95
EPA charge       $ 29.20
Misc Supplies    $23.36
Sales tax          $31.53
Invoice total     $1,161.04


Page 2.

Parts Content

Injector (1)       $68.27
Gasket  (1)        $ 3.28
Bolt (2)             $3.40
Flange Welding  $75.00
Exhaust elbow    $142.00

[artvonne]

  $3300 to replace an injector and fix an exhaust pipe?? Less the tow, $2325, and the Bus still runs like crap and they still cant tell you exactly whats wrong without spending more of your money? I am in the wrong business apparently.

  I would say no to any further work unless they wanna do it for nothing to make up for the BS. If you do go forward, have a solid repair estimate in writing before they pull the head. No more guessing. Or....

  This is your butt ~> .    This could be your butt after you leave Williams ~> (@)  

[thejumpsuitman]

The guestimate is $2,325 to fix the head, not just the injector.  The initial bill of $1,200 was for the injector and the exhaust.

[thejumpsuitman]

I just send another email to the SE President of W.W.Williams asking him point blank to cover the tow bill and all labor costs for the repairs our bus needs.  I told him that the tow would not have been necessary had the Montgomery shop done their job properly and that the labor should be covered because of the expenses we incurred in having to stay in Montgomery without our coach and also because we both lost so much time away from our business, which of course, translates to lost income.

I have been trying to figure out how to contact the CEO of W.W.Williams, but can't figure out how to get his email.  His name is William S.Williams and his great-grandfather founded the company.  Maybe he cares enough about their reputation to get involved.

If anybody wants to read the letter, PM me and I will send it to you.

Marc

[thejumpsuitman]

I had also sent a copy of my email requesting they cover the tow and labor to the manager of the Atlanta store and he forwarded it to the SE manager.  I Just got a response from them.  They have denied my request and I am now inferring from the tone of the email that they do not want to deal with us anymore.  They siad the response could be "very costly" and suggested the option of patching up the engine, blocking off the cylinder and us taking it like that to another shop.  Might be a good idea, but it will cost us $2,100 just to get it back.

Maybe the SE President will be more reasonable.

[bevans6]

I have to say that I now think you're asking for too much.  Williams isn't responsible for your personal issues, they're only responsible for what they did or didn't do to the engine.  Even then, they replaced a bad injector.  If you don't have evidence from an oil sample that they did that wrong, it's hard to say that they owe you more  than offering to absorb the bill from that entire episode.  I thought they gave you some decent options.  Personally, I'd ask them to button it up and drive away if you don't want to let them pull the head off and see.  Lesson learned - old buses sometimes cost a heck of a lot in a very short period of time...  and there is nothing you can do about it.

No one knows what's inside that engine until they take it apart.  You can do all sorts of diagnostics and you still have to take it apart to see.  It's a gamble, and one that Williams isn't interested in taking on your behalf, from the sounds of it.  I maybe take a little different stance because I've been in the "fix old engines" business.  I tell people my hourly rate and my markup on parts, and that's the end of it.  I make no guarantees about anything, because I know that I can't back them up.  Sounds like Williams has a similar policy.

Brian