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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: thejumpsuitman on February 24, 2011, 10:08:14 AM
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W.W. Williams just called me back. They had their Sr. mechanic run the rack again. They say it is now running smoothly, but smoking badly on acceleration out of the right side. They are not interested in getting into it any further, saying I would be better with a new updated engine than to spend $13,000+ on a rebuild. Their opinion is is smoking and has lost power because it has a cracked piston ring. Mercy!
What do you guys think this means for me? I think their standpoint is that it wouldn't be worth fixing that old engine, but obviously I am not a fleet and am not going to be driving 80,000 miles a year. How big and expensive of a job is it to replace the piston ring and keep chugging?
Marc
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i think your best bet is to get of of their shop as fast as you can!!!
dont wanna say something wrong, but that all sounds like they dont know what they do.and they go a lot of shortcuts.
a cracked ring should be easy to see through the air box. also should have shown at compression test, if it is that bad that the engine smokes allready.
i would have left allready, and at least now .
they let you drive away first, and now they have to run the rack again to get it!! ????
what did they do first ???
i think somebody has to start over.
what happened to the injector.
did parts get into the combustion chamber.
are the valves good
compression test
rings inspected through air box
if its only a ring ,maybe a liner, still doesnt make up for a complete rebuild!!!!
just be carefull, it all sounds like they dont wanna work on a bus or even two stroke.
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what color smoke ?? white or blue ???
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I am at a disadvantage for lack of knowledge, but it doesn't strike me as a lost cause either. I am going to drive it home and check with Gene Russell.
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what color smoke ?? white or blue ???
White smoke under acceleration.
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white smoke , is unburned diesel fuel.
it can come from low compression (cracked ring), or poor spray pattern and late timing of injector.
cracked ring makes no sense to me,that its running good in idle !!??
rings and liner can be checked through air box.
running the engine without exhaust manifold will also help pinpoint the trouble cylinder.
if not maybe the whole bank is still not running right timed.
thats just me
i wouldnt drive to far without having a second opinion.
not to hurt the engine , only because its still adjusted wrong.
if its really a broken ring , then its poker to drag her home.
its all about what will it cost to repair at place or what will go bad trying to drive home.
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this may be overlooking the obvious but...as was already said white smoke is unburnt fuel. Did they run it down the road to get it up to operating temp? if they just throttled it while sitting in the shop it is not warmed up and white smoke while cold is not unusual. make sure it's warmed up before worrying about any smoke. run it down the road a few miles, get it up to op temp and see if the smoke clears. these 2 strokes don't like to run cold, almost as much as they don't like to run hot. IMHO & FWIW
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this may be overlooking the obvious but...as was already said white smoke is unburnt fuel. Did they run it down the road to get it up to operating temp? if they just throttled it while sitting in the shop it is not warmed up and white smoke while cold is not unusual. make sure it's warmed up before worrying about any smoke. run it down the road a few miles, get it up to op temp and see if the smoke clears. these 2 strokes don't like to run cold, almost as much as they don't like to run hot. IMHO & FWIW
My old RTS use to smoke (white) like crazy on acceleration after it had been idled but it would clear up very quickly like a couple miles. It also didn't smoke at idle...just under hard accelerations. I had been told that my problem was it was either loading up from the idling or I had an injector that was squirting instead of spraying. I was told to pull the manifold off and crank it to see if one of the cylinders were smoking anymore than the others. They said that would pinpoint the cylinder causing the trouble.
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I agree they did not do there diagnostics. A compression test would have indicated the problem. The bad news now is that new fuel injector might not be to new by the time you get home if those cracked rings are coming apart and exiting through the combustion chamber. If need to be, I have a brand new set of pistons and liners for 8v71 that I could let you have for 800.00 which is half price. A rebuild gasket set is 130.00 and main bearings 50.00 and rod bearings 50.00. All you need is someone that knows 2 stroke detroits to do the labor.
309-453-0963
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There is another way to check without taking the exhaust off. crank it up and get a pot holder check the manifolds beside the cylinder. for heat if you have a large deference in the temp. that will be the bad cylinder. if all are about the same that's not your problem. It is hard to find any body that really knows 8v71 most have retired or dead. check around until you find one. One all knowing mechanics cost me a total rebuild he didn't know half as much as he thought.
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I just picked up the bus. The smoke is more blueish according to my friend who followed me. It looked like white from the mirrors, but that's 40 feet back.
The engine is running smoothly now and seems to have a little more power. They have cracked ring at the top of their list of possibilities.
I am 400 miles from home and have no other place to take it. If I could damage the engine further, I will find somebody around here, at least within 100 miles or so who can fix it and just go home until it's fixed.
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I agree they did not do there diagnostics. A compression test would have indicated the problem. The bad news now is that new fuel injector might not be to new by the time you get home if those cracked rings are coming apart and exiting through the combustion chamber. If need to be, I have a brand new set of pistons and liners for 8v71 that I could let you have for 800.00 which is half price. A rebuild gasket set is 130.00 and main bearings 50.00 and rod bearings 50.00. All you need is someone that knows 2 stroke detroits to do the labor.
309-453-0963
You are right, they did NOT do a compression check, just replaced the injector to see if that worked. I assumed a compression check was standard procedure, but apparently not.
That is a generous offer on parts. I will keep that in mind.
Marc
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David's caoch 828-874-6105
russells diesel 828-863-2102
Call either one you will not regret it. every mile closer to them will save you dollars.
uncle ned
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Thanks Uncle Ned,
I just spoke with Gene. He said it was probably a valve or a ring and to go ahead and drive it. So that is my plan. Drive it straight to him.
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There is another way to check without taking the exhaust off. crank it up and get a pot holder check the manifolds beside the cylinder. for heat if you have a large deference in the temp.
Good advice, but I would use an inexpensive temperature gun instead of my hand.
go ahead and drive it.
My mechanic claims he drove a 8v71 across country after breaking a piston and having the rod flop all around. He has more war stories like that one and believes they are one of the toughest engines ever made. Overheating them are one of the few weaknesses that I know of.
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Inquiring minds like to know.. How many would just fix what needs fixing (Like a single bad liner, a broken ring, burned valve) and keep on a bussin down the road? While its nice to have a new overhaul, not everyone can afford that kind of surgery, especially out on the road far away from home. In this case I am sure Jumpsuit would rather fix it at his leisure?
In aircraft it is very common to replace a bad jug or piston or fix a valve on one jug and keep flying.
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Thanks Uncle Ned,
I just spoke with Gene. He said it was probably a valve or a ring and to go ahead and drive it. So that is my plan. Drive it straight to him.
While I still dont have experience with these Detroits, they are just engines. I think your doing the right thing. You really need another set of eyes on it by the sounds of it. Just drive easy and keep an eye on everything. If ive learned anything in my 52 years its that engines almost always warn you about what they are doing or about to do. You can stop at every exit and go back and give her a listen and a looksee.
I had an old Alfa Romeo that had been huffing at idle and fouling number 3 plug with oil. But it didnt stop me from driving it and I really didnt baby it. One night I was wound up 5500 in 5th climbing the grade east out 94 past the MPLS airport when she coughed and lost power. I looked up and saw nothing but heavy smoke. I pulled off and drove to a station, watching gauges like a hawk, boy was she missing bad. Oil pressure and temps stayed normal. Took 3 quarts to top it off (Alfas hold 10 quarts), and I fired it back up and nursed it home. On tear down found it had blown all the rings out the exhaust. I could have probably driven it to Cali and back like that without ever really hurting anything.
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Barn Owl;; Thats the poor boys way thanks for the vote
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My uncle used to run 318's and still swears by them! Told me once that he had one drop a liner in the oil pan. He and the guy who did most of his work for him stripped parts out of an old engine, drove to where the bus sat and "rebuilt" that on cylinder in a hotel parking lot over night and put the group back on it and sent it on it's way in AM!
Has told me numerous times of just fixing what was broke and sending them down the road!
I never have been that lucky! (but I've never had a 318 either!)
;D BK ;D
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How many would just fix what needs fixing (Like a single bad liner, a broken ring, burned valve) and keep on a bussin down the road?
I would fix what was broken and that would be it. There is no payback for doing a complete rebuild if everything else is within spec. There are some though that just can't sleep at night unless everything is new.
In aircraft it is very common to replace a bad jug or piston or fix a valve on one jug and keep flying.
That is very true, and if it works for planes, then why not buses?
If I was going to completely rebuild a 8v71 I would take my money and re-power with a 6V92ta. Plentiful and inexpensive.
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Fix what needs fixing. I ran several 318s in trucks when I was in that business. I put one hole in an engine if that was all it needed. They are tougher than you think.
I got a bunch of stories but they are too long to recount here. Me and another crazy guy turned an 8-71 into a a 7-71 on a fuel barge one time. It lost a rod through the block & the boss said make it run so we can pump off. About 4 hours, a torch, and some Marine-Tex & it was running. It sure did sound funny though! ;D ;D
TOM
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the question i would ask is what is the cost difference between fixing one cylinder and doing a rebuild? If the ring comes apart, it could do damage beyond that one ring.
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Point of diminishing returns on 8V71 that comes with a rebuild that would last 400,000 miles and a used engine that could be purchased for 2 or 3 grand. A member just had a 6V92 built in Missouri for 6800 including head : Wax um from Oklahoma. If your total travels would be around 20,000 miles a year it would take twenty years to put on 400,000. Good luck Bob
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Point of diminishing returns on 8V71 that comes with a rebuild that would last 400,000 miles and a used engine that could be purchased for 2 or 3 grand. A member just had a 6V92 built in Missouri for 6800 including head : Wax um from Oklahoma. If your total travels would be around 20,000 miles it would take twenty years to put on 400,000. Good luck Bob
This is exactly my kind of thinking. I was given the standard line from the shop as if I were a fleet manager, not an individual. I'm sure if I was Greyhound, a rebuild or replacement would be the way to go for the mileage that would be put on the bus. But I am looking at around 8-10k mi per year. If I could squeeze even just another 100k out of the engine, that would be about 10 years worth for me.
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Fix what needs fixing. I ran several 318s in trucks when I was in that business. I put one hole in an engine if that was all it needed. They are tougher than you think.
I got a bunch of stories but they are too long to recount here. Me and another crazy guy turned an 8-71 into a a 7-71 on a fuel barge one time. It lost a rod through the block & the boss said make it run so we can pump off. About 4 hours, a torch, and some Marine-Tex & it was running. It sure did sound funny though! ;D ;D
TOM
That MARINE-TEX is some bad stuff ain't it? ;)
Used to use it to repair Derby car blocks between races!
;D BK ;D
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That MARINE-TEX is some bad stuff ain't it? ;)
Used to use it to repair Derby car blocks between races!
;D BK ;D
It is! I had never used it until that day. Leeland (my buddy) is crazier than I am, if that is even possible. I had just accompanied him on a lark to his job, which was to pump off a barge on that particular night. We had just got the 318 up & pumping when it threw a rod through the block. We dropped the pan, removed what was left of the rod. welded the piston in to cover the scavenger holes, patched up the hole in the block with Marine-Tex & he did something with the injector. Fired it up & pumped out the barge.
The funny thing is, Leeland said he saw that barge again about a year later & IT WAS STILL RUNNING!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
Of course the boss was a real cheapskate.
TOM
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There is a guy in Tyler Texas with a 8V71 and HT740 out of an MC8 he will load for you for $1000. Has a video of it running.
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Near as I can tell from both threads, all you have is an educated guess that it is a cracked ring, no definitive diagnosis.
You will be fine when you get it closer to home and in the hands of a compensate but lower priced shop, one that understands your position.
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I really have no answers on why you are treated in that way at Williams I deal with 2 branches the one in Phoenix and Vegas and they don't work that way I can assure you on that part it would have been so easy to check the compression with injector removed.
Just replace the one liner set if needed and the head you will be fine for years my money is on a chip out of 1 of the valves I have never been lucky enough just to replace a injector, somewhere there are photos of what a blown injector will do to the head of a engine and the top of the piston that I posted from a 8v92 in Smiths Eagle a few years back
My voice would be heard in OHIO and if I paid with plastic notify the card co
good luck
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Could you diagnose a bad valve by putting the cylinder in compression and doing a leak-down test putting air pressure into the exhaust port? You could make up a sealing plate to cover the exhaust port with a place to attach an air hose with a leak=down tester. If you had the airbox cover for that cylinder off, you could listen for leakage in the air box. Just a random thought.
I'm on the side of those who think you could pull the head on that side, check the valves, pull the piston and look for bad rings and not be all that invested except in time. Fix what turns out to be broken White smoke says no compression, and I would think that a leak-down test into the injector hole could tell you if the problem was bad rings or a valve just by listening to where the leak is. Do you even do that on diesel engines? I do it all the time on my gas race engines.
Brian
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The head has to come off regardless. So pull the head, look at the valves. If nothing wrong with the valves, then take the oil pan off to push the liner/piston up and replace the rings or more if needed. And while you're there, you might as well look at the bearings and replace them. And the engine is half apart now, it is not that much of a jump to a complete inframe...LOL.
JC
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The mechanic should have noticed the injector was missing parts when it was pulled, and it is possible it may NOT have dropped a part until it WAS pulled. And quite unlike any other engine, he could have pulled a side cover (inspection port) and looked around inside through the liner transfer ports, inspected the rings and piston, located any loose pieces that may have been in there, ran a magnet around, looky see'ed around with a bore scope and mirror through the injector hole and ports and inspected the valves, blown it out with air, and ran a leak down test. Any physical damage shold have been visable. A leak down test AFTER the visual inspection will verify that the cylinder is sound. Its a piston engine, and just like any other piston engine, a leakage test will show compression losses.
While it is as yet unknown if it wasnt inspected, the fact they are surmising a cracked ring is evidence they didnt look. And we already know they didnt do a compression test or leakdown. Starting that engine back up without having physically looking for debris after knowing physical debris entered into the cylinder is incompetance. If you have even a basic understanding of auto mechanics, you should know better than that. It is then quite possible they started that motor up and did further damage.
This has nothing at to do with the company itself, the entire result falls squarely on the mechanic or his overseer. But hes only human. Hopefully the big dogs running the show will step up and make this right.
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This has nothing at to do with the company itself, the entire result falls squarely on the mechanic or his overseer. But hes only human. Hopefully the big dogs running the show will step up and make this right.
I agree with this. Their policy is good, but the service writer wanted me out of there. It was easy to see.
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If you are on your way to Gene's then your troubles will be over.
He will make it right. Check out his coach while there.
uncle ned
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Marc -
As Clifford and others have said, you need to let another Williams shop try to make it right for you - BEFORE you take it to Gene's.
Once you let another company/individual touch the engine, Williams will wash their hands of it.
I also think you need to let Williams corporate know about how you were treated by the service writer. (A lot of those guys work on commission, so if something comes back, they don't make any money.)
We're on your side!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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RJ I think if you tell gene the whole story he will recommend him in the right direction.
If he thinks Williams did something wrong he will let him know.
He is like most small business's We cannot let a bad deal fall on us.
Our reputation is important to us not like a huge corp. that keeps on going.
uncle ned
gene or david will look at the engine and tell him what is what and most likley not charge him for checking hoping to make him a steady customer.
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Well I agree with Uncle Ned, Clifford and most others here !
What ? You say, I can't agree with ALL of them @ once? Ah, but I can.
I believe Uncle Ned is DEAD RIGHT on Gene or David telling Marc the best way to handle it!
I also agree with Clifford about letting CORP know about it! (they may even pay Gene or David to fix it since Marc was more or less "booted" out the door in Montgomery!
Now I also agree with Clifford that the way Marc was treated was not normal. But OTH I have had 2 similar experiences where a coach was said to be fixed right and the drivers let not knowing any better and got an hour or more down the road before discovering it wasn't. In those cases it was easier to keep the bus rolling and take it to the next closest convenient Williams shop and have it looked at! (of course by this time I had been notified and had done had my words with the original shop, CORP and the shop it was going to)
Upon arriving @ the next shop my drivers and I were treated 100% like royalty and they jumped right on it, went out of their way to make sure the drivers were shuttled to hotel, meals, etc. and I was kept 100% in the loop as to what was going on, found and fixed!
;D BK ;D
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BREAKING NEWS...
Well, earlier today I decided to start heading home with the bus. I was going to call Williams corporate as soon as I got the chance and stop at W.W. Williams in Greer, SC to see if they could help. That would have been just 120 miles from home. I got 65 miles down I-85, stopped for fuel and checked the oil. It had dumped a gallon of diesel into the crankcase in about an hour!
Clifford said it sounded like the fuel line on the injector was leaking. I called Williams in Atlanta, which is about 70 miles from where we currently are parked. I gave him the quick version of my experience and he said do not drive it any further, that they would have it towed to Atlanta. They were going to have a mobile tech come out, but said no matter what, the oil would need to be changed before it was driven anyway.
He said if it was something they did, they would take care of it... If not, I would be charged for the repair and the tow. Sure hope they see things my way. The tow company will be here in the morning, so it's a Wal-Mart campout tonight on the border of Georgia and Alabama.
I wonder if I should stay with the bus or go back to Montgomery which is just an hour from here....
Marc
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If it were me, I would stay with your coach. Sure hope things start turning around for you soon.
You are getting great advice here.
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I dont know how bad news can be good news, but I think this is very good news. And I would definetly go with your Bus and stay until you see which direction it takes. I think if your expectations are resonable, they can fix whats wrong and put you back on the road in no time. Good luck.
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. . .I got 65 miles down I-85, stopped for fuel and checked the oil. It had dumped a gallon of diesel into the crankcase in about an hour!
Clifford said it sounded like the fuel line on the injector was leaking. I called Williams in Atlanta, which is about 70 miles from where we currently are parked. I gave him the quick version of my experience and he said do not drive it any further, that they would have it towed to Atlanta. They were going to have a mobile tech come out, but said no matter what, the oil would need to be changed before it was driven anyway.
He said if it was something they did, they would take care of it... If not, I would be charged for the repair and the tow. Sure hope they see things my way. The tow company will be here in the morning. . .
I don't know. . . This isn't the greatest situation either.
Jumpsuitman has a lot on the line here, possibly picking up a very expensive tow and a commitment for further work at non-negotiable rates.
It wouldn't take much more than basic skills and tools to pull a cover and see if one of the connecting lines are leaking. Also, what if it's found that there is an internal leak, but, unrelated to the previous work? Too bad that cover couldn't be pulled before a tow is scheduled. After all, it's just two bolts, may not even require a wrench.
From the top Jumpsuit, are you very sure that it's fuel topping-off the crankcase and not an overfill? I forgot how close to home you are now, but maybe that'd be the place to aim for, then you could work through a diagnosis without the costs and pressures of being stuck on the road.
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It takes quite a bit of work to remove the right hand valve cover on a 8v71 in a Eagle trust me you don't do it 5 minutes he made the right call it will be on Williams by not replacing the fuel lines with the injector like they are supposed to do
good luck
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it is a big deal on his coach. there is no clearance on the problem side to pull the valve cover, looks like he might have to pull blower.
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You have to remove the complete air horn or the blower I remove the 2 piece air horn myself
good luck
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Well the tight clearance changes everything.
Of course I still wonder if for sure fuel's leaking?
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I have been watching the oil closely from the time it first broke down. It was down 2 quarts when I left Montgomery today and 65 miles later it was over by at least 2 quarts. It's blowing a ton of fuel out the tailpipe, so I'm sure it's fuel.
I feel a little vulnerable as well because if they deny it's their fault, I will be on the hook. I hope their good reputation starts kicking in soon for me.
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it is a big deal on his coach. there is no clearance on the problem side to pull the valve cover, looks like he might have to pull blower.
You gotta pull the blower to pull the rocker cover? I suppose thats on any V71? 92's too? I would imagine thats a tough little job in an MC5 eh?
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it is a big deal on his coach. there is no clearance on the problem side to pull the valve cover, looks like he might have to pull blower.
You gotta pull the blower to pull the rocker cover? I suppose thats on any V71? 92's too? I would imagine thats a tough little job in an MC5 eh?
From what I understand, it's an Eagle only issue.
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You don't have that problem on every engine. this is an issue of not having clearance between the engine and the bus body. GMC's and MCI's you can pull both valve covers without pulling anything else like blowers etc.
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A broke fuel line is not going to blow out the tail pipe sounds like it pumping fuel down through cylinder wall is the engine missing you didn't tell me it was coming out the tail pipe.
Hold your ground you asked for repairs and they sent you down the road without repairing it right they will work with you probably no labor just parts
good luck
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Eagles pull air from both sides it not a problem on a 6v92TA or the 8v92TA only the 71 series
good luck
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I agree, knowing if there's a misfire would be key.
Although of course heavily diluted oil will tend to blow everywhere.
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You gotta pull the blower to pull the rocker cover? I suppose thats on any V71? 92's too? I would imagine thats a tough little job in an MC5 eh?
GM can be done standing up. I can have the lower one off and on in less than 20 sec. Due to the Jakes crowding the valve cover to bulkhead clearance on the top head, it takes 3 min off/on. I have the two piece valve covers, and I don't think I could do the back like that with the one piece.
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A broke fuel line is not going to blow out the tail pipe sounds like it pumping fuel down through cylinder wall is the engine missing you didn't tell me it was coming out the tail pipe.
Hold your ground you asked for repairs and they sent you down the road without repairing it right they will work with you probably no labor just parts
good luck
There's a lot of smoke on acceleration, I would assume it's fuel since it looks more white than blue. It was missing when they first gave it back to me, when I brought it back, they adjusted it out and it was running smooth. But today it started missing again.
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OK again I side with Clifford on this. (as I usually do ;) )
I would have it towed and let them go in for a look. Then depending on what they say they have determined, it would depend on how loud I would get. First off being cool calm and firm usually goes a long way with getting results.
But if that don't work.............what does it hurt to let them know how ya really feel! ;)
Now on the other hand if I'd taken it to "Podunk's TRICYCLE & anything else shade tree shop" in BFE and pretty well knew that chances of it getting warrantied were 0 to None. Then I might be tempted to change directions of what to do!
I had a bad fuel leak in the 8V92 DDEC in the first bus we ever owned and changed the oil every night in the hotel parking on a 4 day tour and babied it home to where we found that 6 of the 8 injectors housings were cracked all over. Replaced all 8 injectors and she was still running like a top when the guy we sold it too drove it out to CA!
SO I see both sides, but my $ is on going back to Williams and insisting it be fixed right! After all they are a big corp and not "Bubba's beef jerky & repair shop"
;D BK ;D
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Now on the other hand if I'd taken it to "Podunk's TRICYCLE & anything else shade tree shop" in BFE...
..."Bubba's beef jerky & repair shop" ...
;D BK ;D
BK, you have a real knack for coming up with some names. If I ever open a shop, I'll consult you. ;D ;D ;D
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I really think your going to be okay, but just in case, make sure you use your card to pay the bill.
I would imagine that someone here knows somebody who knows a guy a Williams. If they are a big national heavy diesel repair outfit, bad publicity will always outspend good advertising. I would not be at all surprised if someone higher up at Williams is watching this event play out and would like nothing more than a well satisfied customer. I know I would if it was my company.
Hang in there buddy, were all pulling for ya. Make sure you report back here before you make any big decisions, or start yelling at them, lol.
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Marc,
Did you by any chance hear back from W.W.Williams corp office yesterday? At the time we spoke I did not have your phone number yet . Also as of yet I have not heard from the branch in Columbia,SC yet. Any thing I can do just call...............
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The only thing yelling will do is get you shut down and out the door quickly.BUt be firm in letting them know your problem is worse now after leaving there shop. Now a phone call to a higher up at corporate will useually do the trick. Like you said before a good word of mouth is the best advertising they can get. They are not going to lose customers over giving you free labor on the fix. Williams didn't get that big by having bad service. But like any big corporation there are mistakes made. Hopefully Williams will step up to the plate and take care of it. Marc keep your head up and go in with 100% confidence they are going to take care of the problem, and we are all rooting for you!! !If not I know some guys in Chicago that knows some guys in Atlanta that can go in and talk to them with baseball bats!!! Just kidding !!!maybe ...No really just kidding!!!!
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Hey just for reference, here's a 6-92 top end apart. Altough ours is a model 15 (102" wide) still a little tough to work on even for a string bean such as my self ;D
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cwvanhagen/DSC01493.jpg)
Heads off
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cwvanhagen/DSC01471.jpg)
New heads
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cwvanhagen/DSC01463.jpg)
Heads on, and assembled
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cwvanhagen/DSC01490.jpg)
And completed
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cwvanhagen/011-1.jpg)
Here's Marc's engine bay
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/cwvanhagen/2011-02-011enginebay.jpg)
Enjoy the bus porn! ;D Remember! Wise guy says, EXPERIENCE IS SOMETHING YOU GAIN RIGHT AFTER YOU NEEDED IT ;D ;D
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Marc,
I live on the northeast side of Atlanta. They'll be towing you to their Moreland Ave location. I'm about 30 miles from there, so, if you need any assistance, feel free to call me 770-47six-322six.
In fact, I've got a 5:00pm appointment south of Atlanta. Maybe I'll leave a little early and stick my head in and see how you (and they) are doing(if you're still there).
Bob
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WildBob, That is a very kind offer. Thank you. I actually had somebody meet us there, so we are already on the way home.
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The bus is at Williams on Moreland in Atlanta. They can't look at it until Monday. Gary LaBombard insisted on coming to get us, to take us back to Charlotte.
I was looking at the invoice from Montgomery is itemized. It is very detailed, even down to the 2 exhaust bolts @ $1.70 a piece. However there is no new line listed. Makes me think they didn't change it.
When I told him the biggest problem was fuel in the crankcase, he said "Oh, then it shouldn't be that bad.". I hope not.
Marc
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Marc,
OK. If you need local eyes and ears, or a place to park the bus when they get it repaired, let me know.
Bob
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:) ;) :D ;D 8) ::)
Just makes ya feel all warm & fuzzy all over don't it?
;D BK ;D
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There she goes...
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The wrecker isnt a wheel lift?
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Wow look at that...an Eagle pushing a wrecker AND popping a wheelie too. Very impressive. ;D ;D ;D
In all seriousness, I hope they can get to the bottom of your problem and it doesn't cost you a fortune (your fuel is going to cost a fortune). Good Luck and keep us posted.
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The wrecker isnt a wheel lift?
The HD wreckers lift under the axle. They'll have a few different size forks they can install on the end of the stinger that the axle beam will sit in.
Bob
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The wrecker isnt a wheel lift?
The wrecker isnt a wheel lift?
The HD wreckers lift under the axle. They'll have a few different size forks they can install on the end of the stinger that the axle beam will sit in.
Bob
Bob is correct! And yes, Artvonne some do actually use the "wheel cradles" instead of the axle forks, but mostly young guys with lots of extra testosterone to use showing how many heavy parts of a wheel lift they can carry while assembling it when it really isn't needed! ;)
;D BK ;D
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On a Eagle you chain around both torque tube pick it up and go that is the way da book says they don't have a front axle
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Did they pull the rear axles. I was told they have to pull the rear axles out. And all three times I have been towed they pulled the axles. Maybe its just a MCI thing.
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You pull the axles or the drive line on the Eagle the drive line is easy to drop
good luck
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On a Eagle you chain around both torque tube pick it up and go that is the way da book says they don't have a front axle
Doh!...Clifford is correct, of course. I've spent enough time under Eagle front ends to know this....just slipped my mind. Still the same principle, though. Just gotta spread the arms on the end of the stinger out a little wider to reach the torque tubes.
Bob
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Yes, he did pull the axle and put those forks on the stinger that cradle the Torsion bars at the bulkhead. It took about an hour to load her up.
When I was checking the oil the day before, I found that while working on my exhaust, the guy at W.W. Williams did not re-connect my tailpipe to the muffler! No wonder we were dying inside from the smell for the short time we were on the road. Exhaust fumes must have been sucking up inside!
I sent a LONG, LONG email to W.W. Williams this evening recounting my entire experience and asking for their help. We will see what happens.
Marc
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I sent a LONG, LONG email to W.W. Williams this evening recounting my entire experience and asking for their help. We will see what happens.
You have a lot of patience. I think writing corporate was a good move and after all the mistakes that were made it seems you have kept your wits about you. They didn’t even hook up the exhaust? Luckily that didn’t start a fire. :o These guys being a shop that supports the transportation industry is scary. Hopefully corporate will get involved and do some house cleaning at that location. In addition to writing your email, call corporate and be heard. They have wasted enough of your time and money.
How corporate handles your case will tell the rest of us if their reputation still holds true. ::)
Hang in there and keep us posted.
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Is Sam Walker running that garage? You have been hosed sooooo badly by that crew. Go for their groin. No mercy! Do what you can for the universe and don't spare any effort in making sure these clowns are not waiting anywhere for any of us. If Corporate gaffs you, and I am sure they will not do that, then you are going to have to bite the bullet and get an attorney. Get one of those low down rotten unscrupulous SOBs but you can tell people that he is "your SOB" and we will cheer you on. Hope it works out cause Corp America is sponsoring a big campaign to get rid of those attorneys to save us from them. And you know how corp Amerika is always looking out for our best interests.
John
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I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. All of our negative experiences have been with the Montgomery branch. It's hard to believe they won't be reasonable after all they put us through. I feel a lot better now that it is at a different W.W.Williams location.
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I sent a LONG, LONG email to W.W. Williams this evening recounting my entire experience and asking for their help. We will see what happens.
Marc
You may want to consider following this with a phone call to make sure that someone actually read the email. If your current experience is good, let corporate know about that too. That way they know what shops are doing a good job and what shops are slackers.
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Well today is the big day the bus goes in to the shop. They can say whatever they want about the fuel problem but letting that bus out of the shop without hooking the exhaust back up is just unheard of. I think a shop should tell you upfront and be honest if they dont have anyone that is qualified to work on a bus or just don't want to work on it. I am hoping that Williams Corp. office will take care of this matter and also take action to insure it doesnt happen againto another future busnut in trouble in Mongomery Alabama.
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Well today is the big day the bus goes in to the shop. They can say whatever they want about the fuel problem but letting that bus out of the shop without hooking the exhaust back up is just unheard of. I think a shop should tell you upfront and be honest if they dont have anyone that is qualified to work on a bus or just don't want to work on it. I am hoping that Williams Corp. office will take care of this matter and also take action to insure it doesnt happen againto another future busnut in trouble in Mongomery Alabama.
Yes! I wish they had just told me they weren't interested in working on it! That would have saved me almost 2 weeks of waiting around Montgomery and losing money... above and beyond what they charged for their "service".
There is no excuse for their attitude or for the lack of care and attention they put into their efforts. When they took the bus in, they were in effect, committing themselves to diagnosing the problem and to offering me reasonable options for repair.
I got a message this morning from Williams in Atlanta. They said they were pulling the bus in and were preparing to remove the exhaust manifold to get to the root of the problem... This is what Montgomery should have done in the first place!!!
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That is good news, Marc. I am glad that Atlanta is finally looking into what really happened.
I would also consider sending your letter certified mail, with a signature return. That letter WILL get read then.
I pray that things work out well for you. Sure is a nice bus.
God bless,
John
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I just got off the phone with Aven Sharp who is the Southeast president of W.W. Williams. His office is in Atlanta. He said he had just read my email recounting our experiences with the Montgomery branch. He said he is aware that the bus is there and would personally get involved. He assured me that we would hear from them again before the end of the day with information regarding it's condition.
I expressed to him that I was very concerned that any damage found could be related to the improper diagnoses and repairs that the shop in Montgomery did. He took a "wait and see" stance, which I can accept for now.
I hope and pray that this company displays the kind of character that we are told they have.
Marc
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They can say whatever they want about the fuel problem but letting that bus out of the shop without hooking the exhaust back up is just unheard of. I think a shop should tell you upfront and be honest if they dont have anyone that is qualified to work on a bus or just don't want to work on it.
They? It was one guy, the mechanic. He dont own the shop and neither does the guy who runs the shop.
I was poking around inside the wing of a Cessna 172 during an annual inspection, looking with a mirror and flashlight, when something caught my eye. I reached my hand up inside and brought out a pair of pliers. The pliers had a name ground into them. I walked over to Bob and showed them to him. He read the name "Oh, Billy _____'s". The guy he refered to hadnt been around a while, the pliers could have been up there for years through countless other 100 hour and annual inspections. Bob handed them back to me and said "thats why you dont put your name on your tools", laughed, and walked away. I was horrified. Those pliers could have been caught in a control cable for the aileron, or jammed the flaps. How can you laugh? Over time I saw the humor. Hopefully you can too if you think about it. But that incident had nothing to do with the shop owner, it was all on the mechanic who left them behind.
The point here is that we all make mistakes. How many times have we read of a doctor leaving a tool inside someones chest? I was amazed by a lot of things I saw working around airplanes. But to be fair, there isnt any law stopping an owner from inspecting his own airplane, over and above the mechanic. Once in a while an owner would follow behind a mechanic and look inside everything themselves. But it was VERY rare. Never assume that the clown working on your rig knows more than you do.
There is always something comforting in having a new set of eyes put on something. Mechanics love finding mistakes the last guy missed or goofed up, kind of a neener neener attitude. Jumpsuit drove in with a problem, and asked them to fix it. They returned it in no better condition, running rough, therfore it was NOT fixed. He returned, explaining the problem persisted, they fiddled and came up with guesses, and sent him down the road leaking fuel, a problem he did NOT have when he came in. I will be very surprised if there is any further billing on this, even to the point of a complete overhaul if the engine is damaged.
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I just heard from Williams again. The shop foreman is saying there was no fuel in the oil... He also said that he has determined that it has a valve problem, either burnt or broken. He scoped the cylinder but said he it had some wear but could not tell to what degree. The next step would be to pull the head.
Okay, I am getting nervous... He followed all that up by saying my current bill was $2,100, which includes a tow of $975. And it would be another $800 to pull the head off for further diagnostics. My response was to ask what kind help they were willing to give based on our 10-day nightmare experience in Montgomery. He said it was not up to him to make those calls and would have his boss call me.
He apologized for my bad experience so far and said all he could do is do things correctly from here on. I said I understand that, but if I have a full size bill after having had that experience, the taste in my mouth would still be very bitter!
Boy, I am starting to feel sick.
I am at a loss as to him saying there was no fuel in the oil. Somehow it went from 2 quarts down to 2 quarts over without me adding anything... And YES, I know how to check oil. I checked it 3 different times and parked on different surfaces to make sure I was getting a correct reading. I did notice that when they pulled in in on the hook that there was a trail of oil under the bus. Maybe it leaked out what was over, but I know of nothing but water or fuel that could get into a crankcase without adding it yourself.
I will try not get too anxious and simply wait to hear from the foreman's boss on how they plan to help us on this bill.
Marc
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If it is not fuel in the oil then what was it that raised the oil level. huh?? Maybe your engine makes oil. What about not hooking up the exhaust? It sounds that they are back tracking now. I think maybe we should all make a phone call.
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I am going to remain cool until I hear what they are or are not willing to do... But I DO wish I had got an oil sample before leaving. Might call on someone to run by to get one for me. But still want to stay cool and let them do right.
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So they are going to lie about the fuel in the oil, stick you with the tow, and tell you the engine damage isnt anything they are responsible for?
Okay let me see if I get this straight. They cant tell if the engine has any compression or a bad valve without pulling off the head? Are they serious? STOP. This is BS. If they cant run a simple compression test or run a leak down after all the garbage they have put you through, tell them to shove it outside and go drive it to someone who knows what the heck their doing.
A compression test at a minimum, and really, it needed a leak down test, should have been the very first thing they did. PERIOD! A leakdown would tell the % of loss and the area, valve or rings.
I would seriously call them and tell them to stop doing anymore work, leave it alone, your coming to get it and drive it out of there. Im really sorry to see you getting a run around on this.
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Marc,
I too am sorry to hear/see that your still having problems on this.
But when you said it had pumped a gallon of fuel in it in an hour, I thought YOU KNEW FOR SURE that there was FUEL in the oil! Had I known that it had just gained oil mysteriously, I probable would have told you to go buy a couple drain pans, oil, & filters and change it your self to be sure what ya had & how much, instead of insisting that you have Williams have it towed!
Now I'm not blaming you, or whatever, just saying I misunderstood the EXACT situation.
BUT again, I'm at a loss as to why they are not able to tell you more about the problem after already charging $1125 just to tell you "there is no fuel in the oil, and it has a valve problem!"
What have they done for $1125? An oil analysis and scoping the cylinders should not cost that much!
What is their shop rate? @ $1125 you'd think they would have spent about 9-10 hrs on it already! And if they spent that much time on it they damn well should be able to tell you what is wrong with it!
$800 just to pull the head? After $1125 already? Ah, I'd be on the phone with the guy that called you and let him know MANY of us experienced as well as inexperienced busnuts are following this ordeal and not liking what we're seeing/hearing at all! I for one have always thought they were a better company than it is starting to appear to be!
They sent a service truck out to us in a McDonald's parking lot once south of Atlanta as we were loaded and on our way to Orlando when one of the buses just stopped building air.
He put a governor on it and sent us on our way. Once in Orlando it acted up again. Only this time it was building too much air!
So I took it to Orlando Detroit Diesel and they found it was a bad governor that had been put on it.
SO we paid them and left. When I got to the hotel I told them about it, and what ODD had told us. He insisted I fax him the bill from ODD and to my surprise when I got home I had a check waiting on me from them that not only covered ODD's bill but also a full refund of their service call, parts, & labor bill too!
SO I have used them again since and had a couple minor issues and they immediately corrected those too!
FWIW I am sorry! And I would NOT go for what they are telling you now! If they are going to charge you $2000 just to be able to tell you what Clifford already had told you from the start and Montgomery should have also done/told you. Then tell them thanks but no thanks just make it drivable and I'll take it to a shop that WILL DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME & take it to Gene or David!
And yes I'm sorry to say it, but you will have to pay the $2100 before they will release it to you! But pay it and tell them they just lost a LOT OF PEOPLES business! (especially at these 2 locations!)
Then take it to Gene or David and have them fix it right and chalk up the rest to a bad learning experience!
>:( BK :(
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Marc -
Do you know the simple test to determine if there's diesel in the engine oil?
All it takes is a couple of paper towels folded together.
Set them on the floor. Pull the dipstick and let it drip oil onto the towels.
If almost immediately the oil starts spreading throughout the towel, there's fuel in the oil.
If it slowly dissipates, then it's only oil.
As a follow-up and back-up, smell the paper towel. If there's diesel on the towel, it will be VERY noticeable.
So, a trip over to Williams shop for a look/see?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Jump,
You should have been called by the Prez seeing as he is involved. That any shop person called you is a bad sign....to me. Attitudes do not flow UP hill. They flow down.
Sadly, I think you are into plan "B". You never ever go there till you can "prove" that you have exhausted all other avenues of redress with the principles. Any SOB will immediately start writing letters asking for help on your behalf and making all the appropriate phone calls....once.
If you don't get a call that they are soprry and will pay the bill then you should get that bus out of there and into a shop that will help you with the documentation you will need. If you take it out then get the name of a truly dispicable SOB. Contrary to common opinion they almost always only come out of it with damages to cover your loss and pay their fee. Do a "free" consultation and ask what kind of info he needs from the repair shop to support your claim against W.
I hope someone on here can refer you to the worst AH they have ever heard of. The guy that rapes the opposition. 99.99 times they only get back "most" of your expenses and a modest fee....BUT THEY WIN. Once W gets a certified letter from the BAD AXX imloring them to do the right thing then it starts to happen. Their att will advise them to settle and pay expenses and "do the right thing". This isn't megabuckville and a fight will cost them a lot also. Your SOB can clarify all this.
So who should he call or who can he call to find out who to call?
Don't start any of this if you made some mistakes you forgot to mention for any reason as every attorney I ever drank Scotch with reamed anyone that misrepresented no matter if the client were idiots or corrupt in there information. I think that is where the bad rep comes from, at least partly. Even if you don't use him for any legal work, you should, at this point CYA and get legal advice cause, first and foremost, I can't give it and nobody that I know of here can either.
Fuel doesn't make sparks out the EX. Steel being shreded does, however and I think many here knew that all was not going to be well after they heard that report. It is plausible that your valves were alright when you arrived at the first W shop and were damaged in the drive "from" the first W shop to the next one. Get that oil checked ASAP.
Good luck to you,
John
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I disagree with BK, and that is rare. Don't mention this site or his loosing other customers. And get a SOBs advice on paying the current bill or anything else. You are out of your depth and I am out of your depth, as well. Time for the A team.
Sorry about how this is working out for you. Quit worrying and let the Pro earn his keep.
John
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Let me stick this in there real quick...
YES, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY 100% FOR SURE FUEL IN THE OIL!!!!
I may not be a diesel expert, but I'm not an idiot. If I had a magical engine that produced oil from thin air, I would be a millionaire!
When the oil dripped on the cloth it acted like water. And it smelled like fuel. What they are saying is complete B.S.!
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The regional manager called and here's the deal they are offering...
They want me to commit to the repair and proceed with removing the head, knowing there is at least a problem with a valve. He said only then could they can give me a true repair estimate.
I told him I did not want to commit to that until I knew how they were going to mitigate our losses. He called back saying the Montgomery branch is willing to refund all the money from the first bill in the form of a credit to be applied to the new bill.
The "ballpark" estimate is $4500 before the Montgomery is applied. So take away the Montgomery bill and the tow, and we get an estimate of about $2,300 for the actual repair assuming it needs a re-manufactured head. The head being about $900 by itself.
They are waiting for my answer and I am trying to decide whether or not to go with this. Personally, I don't think it's enough. What about my 10 days of out of town expenses, lost time and income while they strung me along day by day?
In my side-line business, I refurbish sewing machines and sell them. I have sold over 2,000 sewing machines over the past few years. On more than one occasion, things have gone wrong. Machines arrive broken, people are difficult, whatever. In those cases, I am willing to take a loss to keep the peace. I have on more than one occasion eaten both the cost of the machine and the shipping. I was hoping I could expect the same from Williams. They are offering less than I do in my own business.
I know some of you are willing to take things further than me. I have enough to worry about in my life (see my off-topic post "lifeline or noose") In my way of thinking, you cannot make somebody do something they don't want to do.
I do not want to pay that tow Coach-net membership notwithstanding. Had they done their job in Montgomery, a tow would never have been necessary! They are trying to say there was no fuel in the oil, and in essence, that the bus could have been driven. I absolutely reject that. I will insist on an oil test if necessary, but the only reason I even called them is because it was "making oil".
I don't really know what else I can do with these guys. I am not really satisfied with the offer, but I don't really know what else I can feasibly do.
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I'd get them started right away.
Document everything that was / is done. Get the oil sample asap. (you )
Start negotiating the bill fresh when it is sitting outside running.
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That is going to be a tough call Marc I pretty much guarantee you will need a head, work on him for the wrecker fee they paid about 1/2 of that and you are not going to do much better than 900 bucks on a Relibilt head from DD they won't buy off the self from another supplier also work on him for the labor they control all of that with the other branch offering credit they are trying to find away out of this mess created in Montgomery so both sides will be happy
good luck
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I would not say anything to them about oil sample go back there and get one yourself. Otherwise they will give you a bogus oil sample knowing that there is fuel in the oil. Your right it doesn't take a rocket scientest to tell if your engine is filling up with fuel. Thats one reaseon they put dipsticks in the engine 1. to see if you need oil 2. to detect a problem of being to full then the only question is why is it to full. 1. would be antifreeze leaking in (oil would be milky) 2. Fuel leaking in (which would make the oil have the consistancy of water).They have already admitted to them doing something wrong by offering to put the Montgomery bill towards a higher bill at their shop. Ask them to put that in writing then after you get that in writing tell them you only want the work the other shop done correctly. Maybe you burned a valve after leaving the montgomery shop because the engine was sucking air back in the exhaust from not being hooked back up.
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We know a place (I won't say which one, or who, but it was an authorized Detroit shop), but they wrote off pretty much all of the labour on a 8K bill, for pretty much no reason.
They can do it.....
Also, see if somebody in Atlanta can get you a sample, like Chart was saying. Just show up, and get it.
FWIW
God bless,
John
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He didn't burn a valve the tip from the injector took it out not much room for metal from a injector to pass in that area on a DD with no intake valves best of luck to you Marc some times your the bug and next time you are the windshield I would be willing to wager a private owned shop is not going to be much cheaper when all is said and done man I feel bad for you
good luck
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That is going to be a tough call Marc I pretty much guarantee you will need a head, work on him for the wrecker fee they paid about 1/2 of that and you are not going to do much better than 900 bucks on a Relibilt head from DD they won't buy off the self from another supplier also work on him for the labor they control all of that with the other branch offering credit they are trying to find away out of this mess created in Montgomery so both sides will be happy
good luck
Well I did get Coach-net on Friday before we left... LOL... But does anybody know if there is a waiting period before it kicks in?
I have been doing a lot of thinking since I spoke with the guy. I have in mind to ask him two questions...
1) If W.W. Williams in Montgomery had done it's job, would a tow have been necessary at all?
2) Is your time any more valuable than mine? If not, labor should be free just like my time was lost waiting for 10 days in Montgomery.
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Marc,
For us Coachnet was effective the day after you sign up (or it might be midnight of that day).
I feel really sorry for you, man. I agree, doesn't seem like enough, but I don't know. Could you try to maybe squeeze more out of them? Probably, but then again, you don't have too much bargaining power, since you aren't there....
God bless,
John
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Well I think Williams should foot the bill for the tow, but if it comes down to it, I will contact Coach-Net about reimbursing me for it.
I am trying to be pragmatic about it all. I agree with Clifford... At this point,I don't think I would be any better off starting over. What I am really trying to get compensation for is my lost time and aggravation.
It will all be okay. Don't feel sorry for me. Life is good, God is good.
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Well now wait a minute!!!!
I just got some great news that will really us help pay the bill!!!
I just found out by email that I have won the U.K. Lottery again! I won $15,500,000!!!!
My troubles are over!!!!!! Woohooooo! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Marc, I am with Clifford on the damage being done when the injector tip went through the valve. yes Coachnet kicks in right away and you can ask them to pay your tow bill however it is my experience that Coachnet will probably only pay an amount equal to a tow to the nearest qualified repair facility.
I would have them do the repair with a written estimate and written warranty but I would try to negotiate a little more reduction in the refund/credit from Montgomery.
The cost does not seem out of line to replace the head especially using a DD Reliabuilt Head
I would be prepared for more expense when the head is removed as there could be damage to the liner or piston as well
The technician needs to find out from where the Fuel in the crankcase came
GOOD LUCK
Chris
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Re: the $15,500,000 is only payable in CANADIAN funds.
So, feel free to sign the back of the cheque and send it to me here.
I would be more than happy to convert it to U.S. greenbacks for you and send them back.... ;)
Hope your days start improving from now on.....
Mark
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"best of luck to you Marc some times your the bug and next time you are the windshield"
So true.
A friend of mine called today, he was at Cat in Birmingham, having some work done on his Pete, and the (ahem) "Technician" leans his hood over on this long nose, and let's go and smacks the radiator on a tool box in front of the truck.
Damages all that pretty Alum and what knot. So he goes and gets the manager and shows it to him (about $800-900 all total in damages) and asks about a replacement or repair.
The manager looks at him, says, "Accidents happen." Turns and walks away.
Maybe it is just Alabama?
BCO
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So are you saying this repair would have cost $4500 if done properly at the first place? If so, then maybe applying the money spent there to the repairs done in Alabama would be OK less the tow bill. OTOH, if there was additional damage done, or other expense incurred (tow bills, hotels, loss of income, etc) then that's another story. Looks like to me the second repair should be on WW since you paid the first time in good faith that the repairs were satisfactory completed. Either way this definitely leaves a mark..for WW and for you.
Boyce
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It just does not pay to waste your time or energy trying to squeeze something out of the unwilling... Money, Love, etc.
In my experience, the times I have gotten red hot over something, it has cost me more than I would have gained in the form of a loss of my peace. I have gotten crazy mad over "wrongs" and it physically wears me down and out.
I will call the regional manager and tell him what I think would be right but he will do what he will do.
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I disagree with BK, and that is rare. Don't mention this site or his loosing other customers. And get a SOBs advice on paying the current bill or anything else. You are out of your depth and I am out of your depth, as well. Time for the A team.
Sorry about how this is working out for you. Quit worrying and let the Pro earn his keep.
John
JohnEd,
By all means you have the right to disagree with me, and I even respect that you do.
But to set the record straight I never said mention this site! (or any other!)
"Ah, I'd be on the phone with the guy that called you and let him know MANY of us experienced as well as inexperienced busnuts are following this ordeal and not liking what we're seeing/hearing at all! I for one have always thought they were a better company than it is starting to appear to be."
Now that said they will ask that is for sure, but all he has to say is I have many friends who are as crazy as I am and they own buses too. We all belong to an International "club". (which technically we do! we're all memebers here and we have members from several CONTINENTS not just countrys!
;D BK ;D
And Marc I agree with Clifford as bad as I hate to say it. It sounds like you'll be $ ahead to just go ahead and have them fix it.
Now that said, you still maybe able to get more of a break on the price, but I wouldn't bet the bus title on it.
And as far as Coachnet only paying for the tow to the nearest place of repair.(as a former vendor I know there are exceptions!)
And you my friend qualify for one of them! You had it towed to a location that was connected to the last place that worked on it, as it should be a warranty repair. But tell them that they won't cover the tow under warranty! (not lying here!)
Good luck and I hope you feel better about making a decision after sleeping on it!
;D BK ;D
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So are you saying this repair would have cost $4500 if done properly at the first place? I
Boyce
Yes, $4,500 minus the tow, of course. And that is assuming there is no bottom end damage.
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I'm no mechanic, but if they didn't hook up the exhaust, Maybe, they didn't tighten down the fuel lines to the injector when they changed it? Wouldn't that pour fuel into the oil? Wouldn't it still miss?
Don and Cary
GMC4107
Neoplan AN340
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I'm no mechanic, but if they didn't hook up the exhaust, Maybe, they didn't tighten down the fuel lines to the injector when they changed it? Wouldn't that pour fuel into the oil? Wouldn't it still miss?
Don and Cary
GMC4107
Neoplan AN340
Nothing would surprise me. The oil level rose a gallon somehow. I guess maybe it was the "oil fairy".
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. . .my current bill was $2,100, which includes a tow of $975. And it would be another $800 to pull the head off for further diagnostics. . . .
I remember the mentioned close working clearance, but I still can't imagine that it took $1100 worth of diagnostic work on a 71 to not yet specifically pinpointed the problem.
This engine needed two relatively simple tests:
- The mentioned compression/leakdown test of at least the suspect cylinder.
- A leak-down test of the fuel supply circuit to determine if fuel was bleeding off internally.
How could that possibly be billed out at a grand?
A key question is if it hitting on eight when it left Montgomery?
I'm sure the defective injector is long gone to core land.
Jumpsuit - Did you get a show-N-tell of the bad injector?
Best luck Jumpsuit
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BK,
Thanks, No worries.
The problem here is who is not involved......the SOB. He does all that worrying and head scratching and ruminating. Make sure he is working on kon tin gency. When he writes or calls and asks for the best deal they can give you it will mean more than your actions. Tell him to assure the Prez that "$#!% happens to people" and I am the $#!% that is going to happen to you people unless you compensate my client. At that point they will only have to give him a couple grand in legal fees".
Here is the current problem as I see it: A shop can screw you with you standing there looking at them. If they want you they "got'cha". These people have demonstrated that they are not trustworthy and seem to be working in you specific disinterest. The first shop screwed you royal. The crankcase fuel leak happened "after" they worked on the fuel system and that would seem to put them squarely on the hook for those damages. No body has come right out and said it but diluted oil causes accelerated wear and premature failures. You may need an in-frame and who in your present circle of friends is going t give straight info on that? W? Come on. One Knut is on record as warning you that dilution of the oil with fuel turns the oil into "water thin oil".@ The current shop is saying that your oil is "not fuel contaminated" and that is most assuredly to cover the corporate butt at your expense. I fail to appreciate why anyone in this circumstance would "allow" this crew to turn a wrench on $18K overhaul headed engine. Any mech in that shop is going to be introduced to you as the unreasonable cuss of a customer that has everybody working for nothing. Bet on your having a piss poor rep in that shop. And like I said....even with you watch'n an sleep'n with your baby like you did the last time. Lot of good that did you and you lost a couple weeks of pay in the process. I really want you to protect yourself and get off this hook.
Here is what I think you should have:
Rebuilt/overhauled engine if a tear down of bearings shows wear or an oil analysis shows metals. They did it and you should get the benefit of the doubt and the Judge will be looking at who tried to do the right thing.
All tow charges including the next one that gets you into the next shop.
All repairs to your engine if an in-frame or overhaul isn't warranted.
Exhaust sys work.
Compensation for the month of work you have lost.
$20 K for legal fees that you have bills for at least. That much or double cause in this system that is the only way they LEARN. Cost Ford $112M in Punity award before they were willing to fix the Pinto exploding gas tank and that was money that went to the dead victum's father for lost affection. Don't feel sorry for them....feel sorry for your attorney cause he has to face these dirt wads every day and then people hate him for succeeding in your behalf. What would you say if you learned that W had a case like yours a week and that was the east coast alone. I haven't a clue but given their current attitude I suspect that you have company and your SOB will uncover that.
And whatever else your SOB gets from the sob that brought your SOB into his life. From the Bronx Tale: "you see my face? You look at me. I am the man that did this to you. If I ever see you again I will know that you have a death wish." Subtle and gentle like, always.
I am loath to involve an attorney in my affairs in any way. really, I am. But when I have exhausted all other avenues I get serious by fetching up a Gladiator. Then I sit back and watch and shake my head in amusement. Now any Dr or DDS or Corp will hate my guts for advocating legal action. Just imagine what you would be getting if you had no recourse to legal action in TORT court. Imagine what the "good conscience" on the other side would give you. "$#!% Happens"? Is that all? That is not the way I conduct my life and dealings.
You need a reputable shop that will cooperate with your SOB. Make sure they know that they will be doing all the work and will be paid for testifying. Make sure that it is an honest shop with a solid reputation as well as well as having the skills. Really and no joke....honest as the day is long. A good shop will be interested in cleaning up the business environment by telling only the truth. When you walk in say something like "I have been having a dickens of a time with W and I hope you can resolve my engine problems". If the guy says "you and a couple hundred others" then you are on firm footing.
They admitted culpability when they offered to compensate you for the last bill and the plot thickens from there. I suspect that you will have to settle with them to get your bus back but I would want my SOB to ell me what my options are in that state. A mechanics lean can be "unleaned" but it takes a SOB. I know that in Ca it used to be that if you paid a bill it was assumed that you accepted the deal and conditions. The trick was to pay by check and annotate the check that "payment is being made under protest". Then it ain't over and you can actually be awarded that cost pending court findings. An SOB told me that......"always pay, John. Always pay. But do it the right way." A witness helps in every instance.
It might cost you a few grand up front and for the time being but you at least would have hope of coming out "made whole". I will repeat one warning "do not let that crew work on your bus under any circumstance". Talk to the shop you will be going into before you do and make sure your SOB gives them the nod.
Only go with a contingency arrangement and maybe you want to give him 40% of the settlement over you actuals. 50%? I can well imagine that my discussion will nauseate many here and I regret that, truly. We will see how many more "ignore" me.
Fuxx! Fuxx back! I am done now.
John the mellow and sweating rejection
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A compression test on a 2 stroke is a major under taking there is no such thing as a leak down test each cylinders is tested while the engine is running at 900 rpm with that injector removed but you can get a reading of some sort if it has no pressure while turning it over with the starter that cylinder is bad fwiw
good luck
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What a big time pain in the arse indeed! I guess in my business when I make a mistake I work pretty hard with the customer to make it right because I eat breakfast with him sometimes and he has helped me feed my family for years and I have him. Love the small town life. I don't enjoy what has happened as of late with dealing with larger companies and the products they are trying to shove down our throats however. I have little knowledge of major diesel repair shops such as the one in question and hopefully never will. But without a doubt large companies that I have dealt with for years and years are really starting to drop the ball. Normal stuff that you always got because it was the top of the line has slowly but surely eroded into crap. I feel sorry for what you are going through indeed. Hopefully you have the financial ability to get it squared away as it looks to be a pretty nice bus. Like I stated several days ago. These busses are not for the feint of heart. Even finding someone knowledgeable in 2 strokers is getting harder and harder to find. Thank God for someone like Cliff who you can't put a price on for the $$ he has saved mostly everyone of us. Knowledge, it is way more valuable than experience. Unfortunately you are getting the experience end at the moment. Best of luck...
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Dangnabbit. Someone here can tell me, can you see the top of the piston through the transfer ports with the side inspection cover removed? Can you mirror around in back and see the rings? With a bore scope, can you inspect the valves?
After thats done, can you, or can you not, do a leak down test to check compression losses???
I am having a hard time with a company this big (over 30 service centers nationwide) not doing this basic work and having solid answers.
Back to Montgomery. Does it really cost $2100 to R&R an injector and run the rack? Just what was the amount of work that was done? Is there flat rate time tables on Detroits, or is it all straight time?
Maybe were not getting the whole story from Marc, but he sounds believable. Marc, and perhaps a moderator can advise, can you put a pic of the invoice up? That might tell someone here something that nobody else is seeing??
I think I share the sadness we are all feeling, and the fear it could be one of us. The more you can share of the event the more help someone might be able to offer, and the more guidance we can someday offer someone else.
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OOOOWWWWW! What a bunch of rabble rousers. Jeeesh. Have you no sympathy for the BIG guy? What about the banks? Now there is a tear jerker. I think this bad attitude starts at the very top and trickles down. The only thing that I know of that trickles down is the shiX and we are getting that from every quadrant.
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Williams dropped the ball on this one and they know it who knows what the outcome will be they will be open for discussion and JohnEd you mention lawyer all converstation will stop you can bank on that ask your friend at SOD what happens when people say they are going to get a lawyers
Marc is keeping his cool and that will prevail in the long run he may not get what all he wants but it will help.
Word of wisdom for you 2 stroke guys if the shop guy has a Pro/Link in his pocket run like hell, now if he is holding a long handle off set wrench hang on to him lol
good luck
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A compression test on a 2 stroke is a major under taking there is no such thing as a leak down test each cylinders is tested while the engine is running at 900 rpm with that injector removed but you can get a reading of some sort if it has no pressure while turning it over with the starter that cylinder is bad fwiw
good luck
Howdy Luvrbus,
I meant a cheap and dirty basic diagnosis, that's all that actually was needed here. Just enough diagnostic work to determine if the one dead cylinder had a chance of hitting again without a tear-down. With an engine having a dead hole, there's no sense in going into in-depth evaluation until the bad cylinder is diagnosed.
Basically - Lock the engine with the piston covering the ports, flip the valvetrain, pull the injector, air charge the cylinder. If major air is blown into the box or crankcase, it's at least a piston problem - very major tear down required. If air exhausts through the port, it's at least a valve problem - at least head has to come off. The mechanic could bop each valve to try to pinpoint the bad valve or to get a sense if it's burned or bent or held off seat. If the valve seems bent or off-seat from foreign object, the head pull may likely lead to more major work. From this basic testing the next move can be decided.
The diagnostics that were actually needed just don't seem like $1100 worth to me.
Ted
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I'd get them started right away.
Document everything that was / is done. Get the oil sample asap. (you )
Start negotiating the bill fresh when it is sitting outside running.
Marc when it comes out of the shop all fixed and ready to go both sides at that point know what was needed to be done
and have a lot better idea whos fault it was if anyones.
I think if Williams was wrong they will be more than likely to own up to it.
Owning up to it at this point might be too costly.
If the first location had of fixed it, it might have cost you the same $4500.
I think your better off negotiating after it is fixed.
Way to many unknowns and guesses now. I'd prefer to argue FACTS.
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You are right on Paso. The best of all the posts so far. nobody knows until it's fixed.
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Why a new head, cant they repair a valve anymore? Or maybe they can, maybe that $900 head theyll charge you for will just be your head fixed with a shot of green paint.
And why fix it now? If they want to stick up for Montgomery so bad, why con you into fixing a motor they said was not worth fixing? I would really ask them to justify that one. Why stop at $4500, when you could have a fully overhauled motor for twice as much?
No, I think you are maybe heading down a path of throwing good money after bad. They need to fix it on their nickle now IMHO, no more stories. If not, I think you should arrange to have it towed (using coach net) to Gene? The guy up the road that was mentioned earlier? At the very least they need to give a price set in stone thats fair for what youve gone through, and not a penny more, no more wait and see after we pull off the head and drop the pan BS.
I feel your pain Marc, I know I couldnt have kept my cool this long.
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So are you saying this repair would have cost $4500 if done properly at the first place? If so, then maybe applying the money spent there to the repairs done in Alabama would be OK less the tow bill. OTOH, if there was additional damage done, or other expense incurred (tow bills, hotels, loss of income, etc) then that's another story. Looks like to me the second repair should be on WW since you paid the first time in good faith that the repairs were satisfactory completed. Either way this definitely leaves a mark..for WW and for you.
Boyce
From the beginning I didn't have any problem with paying the repair bill. My problem is that the diagnosis was not done properly and 10 days of my life were totally wasted.
I really don't think any other damage was done. The oil was over by 1 gallon with diesel. According to Clifford, that was not enough to cause any damage.
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...Back to Montgomery. Does it really cost $2100 to R&R an injector and run the rack? ...
The $2,100 is what they are saying I owe now, not what they charged me in Montgomery. The bill from Montgomery was about $1,200. But they didn't do anything of value except get me a new exhaust pipe. They charged me about $700 to install the injector and run the rack. They said they knocked a little off because it didn't turn out so well.
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Marc,
This is a question that needs to be asked. Do you have a remote oil reservoir? One of those oil storage reservoirs, usually mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment that holds about 2 gallons? I have, over the years, probably left the petcock open on mine after stopping for fuel or in the morning after a long drive I have started to add a couple quarts and ended up getting distracted and forgot the darn thing was open.
Any chance that happened here?
Sorry but that would explain the mystery oil level.
Slow to anger and a good eye on an ending that you would like to see happen while you're halfway through it is usually a good plan in these situations. Angry squeaky wheels don't always get greased.
Prayer helps too.
RB
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Angry squeaky wheels don't always get greased.
Prayer helps too.
RB
Plus one on the Prayer. But God said not to sin in anger, but didnt say we couldnt get angry. In fact He said to raise up like Lions.
Sometimes a little controlled anger in front of customers is enough to get the point across.
The point here is Marc is getting screwed, IMHO. Williams would have come off much better if they just hadnt said the oil didnt have fuel. Its just a point of contrition. An "I dont know" or a "maybe" would have smoothed the waters much better than than calling Marc a liar or a moron, which is what they insued by saying it didnt have fuel in it. Then there is the diagnosis. I have worked on everything from airplanes to outboard motors, and more than a few diesels. I just cant understand how you can screw around blowing thousands of dollars of someones hard earned money, and still say you dont know whats wrong. Especially on an engine thats been around 80 some years without any real design changes.
Here is what I think. The shop in Montgomery didnt want to work on it, didnt have a mechanic on duty that really knew Detroits or didnt wanna workon it, so they threw it at a rookie and screwed with it and threw it back, figuring it would make it far enough away they could wash their hands of it. When it came back, they said it wasnt worth fixing (without actually being able to say whats wrong with it) and sent it off again.
Why they wanted it towed into Atlanta is anyones guess. Maybe just to get it back so they could say it wasnt anything they did. Without anyone around to see what they found, who can argue? Your word against theirs? If you believe Marc cant read a dipstick then maybe you side with Williams. If you think the head they havnt pulled is junk before they see it, then maybe you side with Williams. If you think its normal to blow $2000 replacing an injector and diagnosing an engine problem, only to tell you they still dont know whats wrong, maybe you side with Williams.
All I know is if $700 to R$R an injector and run the rack is appropriate, I better learn to do more of my own work. Can you iagine if they needed to pull all 8? Wow, half the price of a whole new engine just to tune one??
OTOH, I think Marc should post the invoice from Montgomery so we have something more than he said she said. I hate bad mouthing a business if its not 100% just.
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Marc,
This is a question that needs to be asked. Do you have a remote oil reservoir? One of those oil storage reservoirs, usually mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment that holds about 2 gallons? I have, over the years, probably left the petcock open on mine after stopping for fuel or in the morning after a long drive I have started to add a couple quarts and ended up getting distracted and forgot the darn thing was open.
Any chance that happened here?
I have never even heard of a remote oil reservoir. But even if there was one and it was left open, it would not explain the extremely watery oil.
I am actually not very concerned about the fuel in the oil in terms of engine damage. Like I said before, when I noticed it, I called Clifford and he told me that a gallon was not enough to cause any damage.
The only thing at stake with diesel being in the oil is that this is the main reason the tow truck was called in. The presence of fuel in the oil would justify the tow, landing the responsibility for the tow bill squarely on W.W.Williams since they sent me off like that after I asked them to change my oil in Montgomery. If there was no fuel in the oil, I was just a panicky customer who probably could have driven in.
And YES, indeed I do believe in prayer. I will be on my knees tonight asking God to move on the hearts of those who are in charge there. I would ask that you pray for me as well.
Thanks,
Marc
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Angry squeaky wheels don't always get greased.
Prayer helps too.
RB
Here is what I think. The shop in Montgomery didnt want to work on it, didnt have a mechanic on duty that really knew Detroits or didnt wanna workon it, so they threw it at a rookie and screwed with it and threw it back, figuring it would make it far enough away they could wash their hands of it. When it came back, they said it wasnt worth fixing (without actually being able to say whats wrong with it) and sent it off again.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
As to what they charged me, I tried to clear that up in a post just before this one. The $2,100 is not what Montgomery charged me, it is what Atlanta says I now owe them. This includes the cost of the tow ($975). The rest they say is labor.
Montgomery charged me $700 for the injector and running the rack and about $400 to replace a broken exhaust pipe.
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This is what my Montgomery invoice says verbatim...
Complaint:
White smoke from exhaust, Engine miss on right bank, high idle inop, misc.
Cause:
Injector right bank R&R Exhaust Leak
Correction:
Pulled air cleaner off to access the intake. Could not.
Moved bed and floor panels. Removed intake and #3 injector.
Installed new injector and set rack. Injector height was set at 1.470.
Installed all removed items. Test drove engine.
Removed exhaust elbow from engine. Had to have an elbow made up.
Installed new elbow and verified repairs.
Could not troubleshoot electrical system. Did not have the means to do so.
If while attempting to start unit hold switch down for approx. 10 secs. unit should start.
System does not have a high idle switch.
Order subtotal $1,076.95
EPA charge $ 29.20
Misc Supplies $23.36
Sales tax $31.53
Invoice total $1,161.04
Page 2.
Parts Content
Injector (1) $68.27
Gasket (1) $ 3.28
Bolt (2) $3.40
Flange Welding $75.00
Exhaust elbow $142.00
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$3300 to replace an injector and fix an exhaust pipe?? Less the tow, $2325, and the Bus still runs like crap and they still cant tell you exactly whats wrong without spending more of your money? I am in the wrong business apparently.
I would say no to any further work unless they wanna do it for nothing to make up for the BS. If you do go forward, have a solid repair estimate in writing before they pull the head. No more guessing. Or....
This is your butt ~> . This could be your butt after you leave Williams ~> (@)
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The guestimate is $2,325 to fix the head, not just the injector. The initial bill of $1,200 was for the injector and the exhaust.
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I just send another email to the SE President of W.W.Williams asking him point blank to cover the tow bill and all labor costs for the repairs our bus needs. I told him that the tow would not have been necessary had the Montgomery shop done their job properly and that the labor should be covered because of the expenses we incurred in having to stay in Montgomery without our coach and also because we both lost so much time away from our business, which of course, translates to lost income.
I have been trying to figure out how to contact the CEO of W.W.Williams, but can't figure out how to get his email. His name is William S.Williams and his great-grandfather founded the company. Maybe he cares enough about their reputation to get involved.
If anybody wants to read the letter, PM me and I will send it to you.
Marc
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I had also sent a copy of my email requesting they cover the tow and labor to the manager of the Atlanta store and he forwarded it to the SE manager. I Just got a response from them. They have denied my request and I am now inferring from the tone of the email that they do not want to deal with us anymore. They siad the response could be "very costly" and suggested the option of patching up the engine, blocking off the cylinder and us taking it like that to another shop. Might be a good idea, but it will cost us $2,100 just to get it back.
Maybe the SE President will be more reasonable.
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I have to say that I now think you're asking for too much. Williams isn't responsible for your personal issues, they're only responsible for what they did or didn't do to the engine. Even then, they replaced a bad injector. If you don't have evidence from an oil sample that they did that wrong, it's hard to say that they owe you more than offering to absorb the bill from that entire episode. I thought they gave you some decent options. Personally, I'd ask them to button it up and drive away if you don't want to let them pull the head off and see. Lesson learned - old buses sometimes cost a heck of a lot in a very short period of time... and there is nothing you can do about it.
No one knows what's inside that engine until they take it apart. You can do all sorts of diagnostics and you still have to take it apart to see. It's a gamble, and one that Williams isn't interested in taking on your behalf, from the sounds of it. I maybe take a little different stance because I've been in the "fix old engines" business. I tell people my hourly rate and my markup on parts, and that's the end of it. I make no guarantees about anything, because I know that I can't back them up. Sounds like Williams has a similar policy.
Brian
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I have to say that I now think you're asking for too much. Williams isn't responsible for your personal issues, they're only responsible for what they did or didn't do to the engine. Even then, they replaced a bad injector. If you don't have evidence from an oil sample that they did that wrong, it's hard to say that they owe you more than offering to absorb the bill from that entire episode. I thought they gave you some decent options. Personally, I'd ask them to button it up and drive away if you don't want to let them pull the head off and see. Lesson learned - old buses sometimes cost a heck of a lot in a very short period of time... and there is nothing you can do about it.
No one knows what's inside that engine until they take it apart. You can do all sorts of diagnostics and you still have to take it apart to see. It's a gamble, and one that Williams isn't interested in taking on your behalf, from the sounds of it. I maybe take a little different stance because I've been in the "fix old engines" business. I tell people my hourly rate and my markup on parts, and that's the end of it. I make no guarantees about anything, because I know that I can't back them up. Sounds like Williams has a similar policy.
Brian
Perhaps you are right, but my "personal problems" were not just personal, they were in large part caused by their incompetence. An extra week was spent away from my business and we lost a lot of money and spent a lot of money. That would not have happened if W.W.Williams was what they claim to be. I am convinced they are not.
As for what I am asking, I think I have the right to ask. They have the right to say no. Perhaps my asking for "too much" will result in their offering me a just amount. Their paying for the tow at least! It was their night foreman who told me to call the tow in. That opens up the other issue about their denying there is fuel in the oil. I do not trust these people. They have given me no reason to.
As of right now, my wife and I are discussing it and if they are not willing to give us more than they have offered, we will have them put it back together, have them apply the credit to whatever the bill is and limp home.
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Art,
Just because some people look at conflict resolution differently than you and others do doesn't mean they are "siding" with Williams. This not a for or against issue at least on my part.
It is a real and honest concern that by ratcheting up the rhetoric and posturing so high that you end up with Williams hearing you complaining instead of hearing the complaint. If that behavior leads to them digging their feet into the sand will that accomplish what we all want, which is a reasonable bill for services rendered and reasonable expectations met by the service provider. Lawsuits, threats, turning the bus blog against all things Williams usually doesn't happen. Meanwhile, they guy who has just succeeded in getting them madder than himself ends up paying the bill. You and I aren't going to pay this bill that Marc is looking at, but he may very well heed advice from this board and I sure hope we help and not hurt the situation.
A few months back when I had an issue with a cop and a DOT fellow you and many others here seemingly had one response which was "get real pissed off". I agree that there are personalities out there that don't seem to understand any kind of reasonable argument but they are rarer than we think and by just getting them mad we may create the opposite effect of our intentions.
A few years back I brought my bus into C&J and they put a rookie on my job and they charged me $1200 to not fix the problem basically they did exactly what it appears Williams is doing.Well, I got mad, decided to not pay them and after a couple years between my conscience and the fact that we need two stroke mechanics more every year I went in, tail between my legs and talked to JD and he said "you went from yelling at me and calling me names to basically ignoring me, next time can you just try something in between and talk like grown ups?"
He was right and I was wrong. They charged me $200 and I have given them stuff over theyears to let them know I appreciate them. Let's face it,we all make mistakes, but does somebody getting really mad before the facts are in ever accomplish our goals?
There many more than two ways to skin a cat.
RB
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Face to face and communication is the way to reslove this not emails or phone calls, your call Marc but there is no guarantee the engine will not seize with the raw fuel washing out the cylinder then your into big bucks.
Have you gotten any quotes from the other shops it's going to be 4 grand to replace the head.I probably jinx this bus when I told Jim a bus is one of the few things you can own one day it will cost sorry it happen to you
.FWIW Ed is going to pull his 8v71 from a Eagle he may cut you a deal and not that far from you a good engine he just wants more power Gary knows ED 2 days and your on the road not a hard thing to do
good luck
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The 8V71 (any Detroit really) has a side cover on the outside of the block. Its held on by one bolt. Once its off, you can look straight in at the liner. If you turn the engine, you can see the piston move up and down, and down far enough to see the piston top. There is room to shine a flashlight in and with a mirror, see all around it. With a mirror, you can slip inside the liner and look up at the valves. If they havnt done a compression test or a leakdown, then all they have done for $2000 is look through a hole for 20 hours.
No lie, we used to pull a Cessna 150/172 into the shop in the morning, pull the seats and carpet, open up all the inspection covers, pull the cowling, drain the oil, pull the plugs, do a leakdown, clean everything, put new oil and filter in, poke around with flashlights and mirrors in all the holes looking for birds and stuff, etc., etc....put it all back together and shove it back outside before we left for the day. In fact on one particular 172, it had low compression leaking past the exhaust on one cylinder. I pulled the jug and handed it off to Bob. He went to work on the valve while we completed the rest of the annual. After lunch I put the jug back on and Bob test flew it and gave it back to the owner before we left for the day.
So maybe you can see why I cant understand it taking $2000 to look inside one hole and inspect one cylinder, without doing anything else. Methinks a lot of kafeclutchin goin on on your nickle buddy. I say $2000, because the initial work was diagnosis of the problem and install an injector. I have a hard time thinking it would take 7 hours labor just to change an injector and run the rack, but maybe it does.
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If you guys never been into the right side of a 8v71 in a Eagle don't discount 7 hrs to r&r lol you can do the left side in a couple of hours and fwiw only the old antique engines have the 1 bolt covers the later model have a 2x3 inch hole hard to see in there without removing the exhaust manifold
good luck
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I think if it were me i would have taken them on the offer to do the repair the right way and apply the cost of the initial repair to the end bill. I would ask them to do that and split the cost of the tow, they already said they would not pay for the tow right? maybe you can get them to split it. If you just have them band aid it back together and take it to another shop you are going to be out a lot more money in the long run. Sometimes we have to eat penny's to save dimes. Not saying it makes it right, but it makes economical sense.
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Provided Coach-net is going to cover the tow, that part of the bill is a matter of principle. By saying they could close off the fuel supply to that cylinder to limp it home, they are admitting there is fuel getting in.
If I can damage the engine taking it somewhere else, then that is a totally different issue. I want it fixed right and I don't wan to hurt it. But quite frankly, I don't really trust Williams anymore. Can they do the work right? Yes. But look at all the posturing going on so far. I am leery of them. This is a tough call.
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Art,
I have never had a quote to run the rack that was under $600 and it always tended to be more like $700 by the time they were done. Replacing the injector and setting the height needs to be done really right and it takes time. Add to that the fact that there is no room in some bus engine compartments and it can take a full day to do this right and that's gonna be $7-800 wherever you go. I think we all look down the barrel of just how expensive these this hobby of ours can be and it scares the crap out of us. Anyone who has ever heard the engine compartment go silent on a highway somewhere knows what I'm talking about here. You're first thought is $500 to a grand for towing and between 2-10k for engine work. Thank God these things tend to run a relatively long time between major issues with the low amount of hours we put on them.
Because agreeing with him is such a possible wallet emptying endeavor it is hard to agree with Clifford and his dollar figures but I believe if you count up the times his estimates were correct despite our screams of unfairness and price gouging he was right in the 90% range. That means we were wrong in our estimates of the cost of repairs 9 out of 10 times.
Maybe one day we'll all become realists when it comes to the fact that if you don't have at least 10k set aside for repairs in the bank you are not fully prepared for what these things really cost to repair.
RB
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Well, I don't think there is all that much similar about a Cessna and a Detroit in an Eagle. I don't think any of the charges discussed have been out of line, the part that's been the problem is the work hasn't fixed the problem yet. The second shop bore-scoped the hole, at least I recall reading that, and diagnosed a probable bad valve. If I had a bitch, it's that the first shop didn't diagnose the bad valve while it had the injector out. That they could easily have done.
Shops around here say upfront that they won't work on an old bus like I/we have. They don't need the aggravation of dealing with a private owner, and they don't need the aggravation of working on a bus where they may break three things trying to fix the first thing. This is why. They want to deal with a company who understands the costs and builds them into the business case to run the equipment.
here is a question - can't you leave the injector out and or cap the fuel lines to it so it's not injecting fuel for the drive home? It would just be a 7V71 then... no more smoke! Capping off the fuel to the injector would just let you drive it without further damage, it's not an admission that the fuel lines were cracked or loose on the injector.
Brian
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You are pumping raw fuel because there is no compression on that cylinder and yes plugging the 2 lines from a injector is a comman practice for that but you lose that new injector
good luck
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Clifford, why do you loose the injector? Because of no fuel going through the injector? I assume it gets trashed?
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I'll tell you what to do-- get that bus to a real DD 2-stroke mechanic. From everything I have read these guys don't know what they are doing. Having them continue is just going to cost you more money until they put a rebuilt engine in for $20,000.
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Rick,
I hate to disagree with you.
But I'd go 95% on Clifford's accuracy and that's only because we're all too cheap the wanna do it right the first time ! (and I'm including myself!)
When Clifford throws out a price I can guarantee you he is pretty much on the $!
And not only that but many times Clifford has tossed out tips on where to buy stuff cheaper than we knew where to find it!
Let's face it when it comes to bus stuff ya gotta be pretty sharp to get any better than Clifford! ;)
;D BK ;D
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Montgomery was the problem not Atlanta those guys know what they are doing Marc will work this out ,how much for a new head and piston/liner set installed in a 8v71 in a Eagle bus Geoff you worked for dealer before talking with Don I have a idea where he would be me I roll the engine out makes it a easier job and save time
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Has this turned into something other than a bus related topic?
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Long time ago Kenny lol now it is all about Williams I have friends at other branches so I am out of here but I do agree with the treatment Marc received in Montgomery is not the way Williams does business the Montgomery branch should have fix the damn thing right if they did not have the right mechanics they should have set him on to Atlanta and not taken his money that's all I have to say on the subject at hand
good luck
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If I had a bitch, it's that the first shop didn't diagnose the bad valve while it had the injector out.
Yes, this is what it all comes down to. This is the hinge-pin of my beef. I was prepared for, and after talking with Clifford, expecting to pay a repair bill that was going to approach $3,000, maybe a little more. Instead, what happened happened. And here 2+weeks later I have had living expenses without income that have eaten away at that buffer.
I'll admit that we were tight after buying the bus, but we could have still absorbed this repair had they fixed it right the first time and quickly. Think about what would happen to your savings account if you were forced to take a 10 day unpaid vacation without planning or preparing to.
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For some of us here, Montgomery would have been where we handed the bus title to the repair shop and drove home in the toad.
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Clifford,
"My Friend at Southern Oregon Diesel" is more of an acquaintance and he could be expected to tell you that we have only talked three or four times. I am well impressed with him and besides his sterling professional rep in most circles I would trust him with my engine and check book simply on impressions. But that's me.
If David was treated like Marc has been treated by a vendor or even a customer I think he would have shed himself of the problem and engaged the SOB but I certainly am not speaking for him. I think in the past he has been so upset and disappointed by bus owners, both in the shop and on the phone, that he has given up on buses unless the owner is a good friend. That is truly sad to me. I am sure he isn't missing any money when you play it off against the grief. David's time is worth a lot to him and I am pretty sure he wouldn't waste any more of it on a matter like this if he were the bus owner. I rather think he would write it off and leave unless he engaged an SOB. But the SOB allows you to get away from the mess, relax, and rest assured that all that can be done is being done on your behalf. But often the guy with the big bucks can "afford" to turn and walk away. I don't think Marc is on that list and I would not equate him and his options to David.
I know some must think I am pro lawyer. I certainly am not. Emphatically not. A lawyer is the second worst type to have in your life right after a cop. But when you need one you have no choice except to eat the bullet and turn and walk away from your money, bus, home or whatever is at stake or risk and fight. I left out pride and face and a lot of other stuff that motivates some of us, me included. Also, in my case at least, I want on the record that I reject this uncaring and unscrupulous deceitful conduct and I will go the extra mile to make certain I have done all in my power to make sure you don't hurt anyone else. I number many good men my friend and I treat them as well as I can and I am their proponent. I won't cheapen those and many other lesser relationships by treating a crook in any same manner to any degree. Pro lawyer?....Naw...pro justice for sure and certainly for the little guy and the underdog.
The tragedy began when it was agreed to let the second W have the coach to work on. I thought that stop was to get a diagnosis of fuel in the oil and an estimate. How that could get to two grand is beyond me. There was every reason to doubt their sincerity given that they were investigating their shops work from a different city. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.....you understand I am sure. Had they given me a report that stated "We are at fault for the fuel leak. We didn't do what we were paid to do and will refund all monies paid for that service. We will determine what damage the engine might have sustained due to our negligence and effect repairs or overhauls as required or prudent in your behalf. We will reimburse you any expense that you might have incurred due to our negligence. We will accomplish any part or all of this work or agree to pay any other authorized dealer to perform the work all or in part at industry standard rates and expenses. We agree to compensate your legal representative for all standard charges for his representation in the resolution of this matter. We require that you also hold us blameless for further legal actions pr liabilities. Then I would sign on the recommendation of my SOB and have the bus towed to another shop that had passed my loyalty test. Even the best intentioned manager must realize that any of his staff might take it upon themselves to punish a customer they deemed taking advantage. Now that is a fair resolution from a company this large and scattered. Were it me and I was a small bus. and only had a single employee I would take out a loan to pay off this deal and learn a dismal lesson on Q&A. Were I an owner of a small bus. and a creep came in and tried to game the system on me I would be equally generous with my vitriol and vengeance.
Attorneys will all tell you that they are blindsided by their clients not telling the full story or flat misrepresenting/lying. This makes contingency cases even more risky for them. The system is adversarial by design and their opponent is always in the sabotage mode. You drink scotch with these guys a few times a week for a few years and your understanding of their life broadens. Even they are disappointed by others in their profession and they resent being cast in the same light as your common legal charlatan and they see no way of digging out from under no matter what they do.. They are like any other profession in that some are good and some are bad but the legal beagles seem to be tarred with the worst brush in the box through no fault of the individual. I am sympathetic to their position and they, curiously enuf, are sympathetic to the victims of legal malpractice. We all seem to hate the right guys as close as I could tell. You want a fun and entertaining group I heartily recommend a covey of PI Tort attorneys with three shots of Scotch in each of their bellies. Hate the sin....not the sinner. Right?
Now, having sat across the table from Corp attorneys for many years I will share that I have only met a couple I had the least respect for. At least the ones in the defense contractor arena. They tried everything in the book....waited till I went to the head to pay my bar tab and scurry out the door. The bartenders in those instances made a hellacious tip as I insisted to paying my tab with a credit card and I keep register receipts and card copies. How about getting a "gift" of four box seats to see the Socks play this weekend and "any other sports event you might be interested in cause we get lots of these to pass out as PR". No thanks. They said I couldn't be reasoned with and refused to "play ball" so they were hell bent on corrupting me and then exposing me. Why not just do the work? And the professionals that lawyers consider the most corrupt? Bankers! Think on that.
Oh well. I guess Marc is in as good of shape as he is. I wish him and all well. And by the way, I think advocating "negotiating" after the bill is established with a work order is ....well....not in mixed company will i use those words.
John
It took me a couple days to finish this and it might be disjointed or poorly stated. I still have vision issues that interrupt everything.....not just this. Sorry.
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I guess some of us see things different.
He paid for diagnosis and repair once. When he came back, instead of standing behind their work, they tell him the engine aint worth fixing. That should have been said up front, not after they charged him to fix it in the first place.
Now they are blowing more of his money, re-diagnosing the same problem they charged him to diagnose two weeks ago, talking him into fixing an engine a few days ago they said was junk and not monetarily worth putting money into. How anyone can justify any of this is beyond belief.
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And by the way, I think advocating "negotiating" after the bill is established with a work order is ....well....not in mixed company will i use those words.
Hi John
I made that suggestion based on many years of Service management ( warranty administration)
Negotiating after it is fixed. Has some merit Maximum repair $$ has been established prior to the repair.
Both parties are somewhat relieved as the problem is fixed. Clarity on what was a "overcharge" and what was a " mis treatment "is also very clear.
COSTS are known. ie mechanics time etc...
Both sides usually negotiate amicably and come away satisfied.
Just my experiences :)
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I just had a good talk with the SE manager of W.W. Williams a while ago. Although they are not willing to give me everything I asked for, I do believe they are ready to put their best effort into getting this repair done right.
We do not agree on how I should be compensated and on who should be responsible for what, but I am willing to put that behind me and move on.
I asked him for solid estimates on repairs and made clear that we needed a way out if things started to get out of hand and it looked like we would be throwing good money after bad. He seemed to understand where I was coming from and promised to help us out where they could on labor and parts.
As I said before, I am trying to be as pragmatic and dispassionate as I can be about the whole situation. The damage is done. My goal now is to get the bus back running right as easily as possible while spending the least amount of money as possible. And it seems like sticking with Williams is the best option at this time.
Marc
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Marc,
You are braver than I for one thing. You have what you want and I am certainly clapping for you. I hate to see you "compromise" and eat a grand or two on the deal that went south through no fault of your own and that was what I wanted you to avoid. God knows your solution is going to resolve the thing more quickly than mine. If you are satisfied then good for you and God speed.
John
Clifford,
I had a hunch. You seem to know a few people everywhere. I am surprised that you got in as deep as you did and I think that is to your credit. Can you check your PM file for a msg from me that is on another topic, please.
BK,
You indicated you might be revisiting your patronage of W and that is your bus. alone. Personally, if I were you and I got exemplary service from them I would continue to do bus. You being in bus. can't afford to not get the most bang for your buck. Those shops usually have a special contempt for "RVr types" and from the stories that I hear from the likes of David those RVr types have earned that dislike. I won't do bus. with that crew for my own sake as a non commercial customer but you are a different story.
Paso,
I am in no way discounting your experience as a manager. I have little doubt that W will be satisfied with the final billing and such associated with this arrangement. I read your post as "you agree to have unspecified work done and when we get it all finished then we will dicker". If I were dealing with David I would likely go for that deal. Maybe you also after we became aquainted. Trusting and being trust worthy can be a great simplification to doing bus. I deal with quite a few shops in Eugene where I drop of the equip or vehicle and go back for the bill when I get called about it being done. Easy!
Good luck to all,
John
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Still pretty hard to make assumptions until the fat lady sings.
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To my pleasant surprise, my squeaking seemed to help. The Regional Manager called the Service writer today and had him re-calculate the labor cost in my favor. Had to walk away for a day, but things seem to be looking up.
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To my pleasant surprise, my squeaking seemed to help. The Regional Manager called the Service writer today and had him re-calculate the labor cost in my favor. Had to walk away for a day, but things seem to be looking up.
;)
As I said early on, persistent stern insistence can go a long way toward letting them know your there, still gonna be there, and lastly "it ain't over yet!" Attitudes can go along way toward getting results. Once I get no where here is when I make it known I'm gonna be around until the fat lady sings!
;D BK ;D
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I'm glad its working out and W is stepping up to the plate. Heres to happy conclusion.
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Most certainly good news. Hope all continues to go well.
John
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Most certainly good news. Hope all continues to go well.
John
"The wheel that squeals the loudest, gets the grease first."
BCO
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Glad to hear things are turning for the better. It is good to know that Williams is doing what is right and standing by their work and reputation even for a independent bus owner and not some big fleet company. Marc you did the right thing by giving Williams the chance to make things right and by keeping your cool things will all come together. And for Williams thanks for taking care of another fellow Busnut!!!
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I am glad its all working out, and happier still that Williams is stepping up. And I appologise, for not having a better understanding of the expense and work involved in diagnosing a big diesel. But I dont believe marc needed all the aggrevation this caused him either. I think too many of us, myself included, get real excited when someone starts throwing repairs costing $$$$$$$ at us and still arent able to tell whats wrong. Perhaps better communication from the very beginning (from all sides) would have elleviated much of the pain this has caused.
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Well when the episode happened on the road, Clifford prepared me for the big $$$$ I would be spending, but I was not prepared for the failed attempt at the fix and all the delays. In the end it costs what it costs. And from the numbers I have been given, Clifford was right.
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UPDATE...
I just got a call from Williams. They have taken the head off and found that the #3 piston has come apart. The head mechanic who is working on it says that a big chunk of it was just gone. (That must be what sparked coming out the tailpipe back on I-65). The broken chunk got slammed into the valves, bending them.
The good news was that he said the head itself was fine other than that and that he could press new valves in. That savings offsets some of the cost of the piston and liner. Ironically, the actual piston rings were fine.
The overall estimate has remained just about the same, even though more work is being done.
I did ask him what caused that. His guess was overuse of ether. He said that violent explosion could have caused a fracture in the piston which eventually over time caused the crack to spread and for the chunk to come loose. The injector was intact, so I don't think that was the cause of the problem. Of course, when the piston belw apart, it destroyed the injector which they replaced of course.
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Well it is finally nice to know the cause of the headache. Not so good to hear what the probable cause of the piston coming apart as I live in a climate that calls for ether in the winter months. I don't use much but I do use.
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So the original injector coming apart didn't contribute to this at all. Was the original injector in the #3 piston?
How can you "over use" either? We all need to hear that.
Thanks for your post,
John
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So the original injector coming apart didn't contribute to this at all. Was the original injector in the #3 piston?
How can you "over use" either? We all need to hear that.
Thanks for your post,
John
I can't answer that. This is just what he said. Maybe he means too much at once was shot in there once. Or maybe somebody dumped gasoline in there at some point in the past. I have heard of people doing that and it is very explosive.
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I don't buy the big "bang" most of the time staring fluid will take the compression ring out first or break the crank, if the piston failed something else went wrong could have been wrong timing gauge used on that 1 cylinder or bad rack adjustment causing that one cylinder to carry 30% more of the load on that bank
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I don't think we will ever know why that happened. The only thing I can say for sure is that I saw the old original injector and it was completely intact.
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(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001363557/zzYoure_screwed_xlarge.jpeg)
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Marc, is Williams going to rebuild the entire head?? Is the tech just recommending to stuff 4 exhaust valves in the failed "hole"
I think that it's foolish not rebuilding the head since it is already off the engine. Is it really penny wise? How many miles since the last topend overhaul.
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broken piston parts = not so good for turbo.
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They were actually recommending re-sleeving all cylinders as it was. I asked them if they just did the one cylinder, would it run like it did before this disaster happened, and he said yes. The problem with fixing more than the minimum is where do you stop? That's just the problem. They know I need to save what I can or this whole course of putting money into this engine is not feasible. I could come out better with a re-power somewhere else.
All I know is that they said it was possible that it would need a head, but would see when the got if off. Now that they have it off they say they can save it.
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broken piston parts = not so good for turbo.
The engine is non-turbo.
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Do you have any history on the engine? Not the old "it was rebuilt 10K ago but no paperwork" garbage, but real paperwork that documents everything. Curious how long since an overhaul, miles, .....
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I am glad to hear you are getting some resolution to the problem. Reading your experience helped me and I think others as well. As with all things, what any engine can do is unpredictable. Unless you know all the variables, which we never do, you can't really predict when/where you will have problems.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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I am glad to hear you are getting some resolution to the problem. Reading your experience helped me and I think others as well. As with all things, what any engine can do is unpredictable. Unless you know all the variables, which we never do, you can't really predict when/where you will have problems.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
With all the folks on here considering a bus and still shopping, they can look at me as the guy out front running wildly through the minefield taking all the hits.
Some lessons so far.
***Have a minimum $5,000 emergency fund for repairs and rebuild the fund after you use money out of it.
***Have Coach-Net and KNOW HOW IT WORKS
***Never drive away from a shop until you are 100% satisfied or are compensated.
***If your bus needs major repair on the road, make them to tell you how long it will take so you can go home if you need to and come back later.
***Have a lot of friends all over the country where you can squat in a pinch.
I'm sure I can add more to this and maybe some of you can add more, but this is a saying I came up with and unfortunately in my experience, it always holds true...
"Things will always cost more, take longer, and be more difficult than you think."
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Do you have any history on the engine? Not the old "it was rebuilt 10K ago but no paperwork" garbage, but real paperwork that documents everything. Curious how long since an overhaul, miles, .....
Nobody made any claims about the engine. It just ran great with no smoke at all. It does have some kind of tag on it and it is pretty clean. The bus is a professional conversion and they installed a digital odometer that reads 30K. What that means, who knows.
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So again, and not having any living experience with a Detroit. And equally and obviously we'll never know what caused the piston to break....
How common is it to have an injector come unglued and drop parts into a cylinder?
While ether sounds plausible, running sweet for 500 miles and suddenly going Kaboom makes a guy think something more catastrophic happened.
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So again, and not having any living experience with a Detroit. And equally and obviously we'll never know what caused the piston to break....
How common is it to have an injector come unglued and drop parts into a cylinder?
While ether sounds plausible, running sweet for 500 miles and suddenly going Kaboom makes a guy think something more catastrophic happened.
It's scarier than that... The injector did NOT come apart, they showed it to me. And I drove it 800 miles without even a hint of trouble. It all happened at once and completely without warning.
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I am glad that it worked out for you. It is amazing how tough these old 2 strokes are!. Regardless of the busted piston the old girl was still trying to get you home!
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There is no doubt she would have made it home. If you can get an 8v71 started it will go.
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Naw he would be on a hook shortly with his engine pumping raw fuel with no compression would not have been long before it seized they are tough engines but not that tough lol
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so back to the no fuel in the oil bit...how is that possible with a busted piston? I'm no diesel mechanic but I would think if that cylinder is not burning the fuel/no compression some fuel must be getting in the oil or is it 100% going out the exhaust? Just wonderin'
Boyce
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There was definitely fuel in the oil. I don't care what they try to say. I watched it go from 2 quarts down to 2 quarts over in an hour. It blotted the rag like water and smelled like diesel.
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Way to hang J-elvis. cooler heads prevail. You may have felt you should have been compensated for the lost time and all but i think thats where they started to balk. They did offer a way to fix it and it seems like it is working out. I do know that alot of places wont even let a old bus in the drivway because of these kinda things. Ever try to dock a wooden boat anywhere?
We had a bad experience at a well respected bus repair shop. Went in for brakes and they mentioned that the bus popped out of second when deaccelerating. It did but i just held it in second slowing down. Well "while they were at it" ( laughing about the last centerforld article again) they fixed the trans. never popped out 2nd any more! Just out of 4th and not while slowing down but at anytime. We paid dearly for that! But the brakes worked great!
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Marc, there hasn't been any recommendations from anyone about what to do next that will gauge your engine wear> so I will make the recommendations that you ASKand pay to remove one of the main bearing caps and inspect the bearings. You are already paying monies to remove the oil pan. Ask them how much they will charge you to roll new main bearings in. Look at the rod bearing from the rod/piston that is removed.
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There was definitely fuel in the oil. I don't care what they try to say. I watched it go from 2 quarts down to 2 quarts over in an hour. It blotted the rag like water and smelled like diesel.
So Jumpsuit suspects roughly one gallon of fuel dilution in an hour?
Presuming the fuel passed through the dead cylinder's injector, rather than a line leak, let's apply math to one injector's maximum potential fuel volume, in one hour, in this application.
I'll start with the easy round numbers:
60mph @10mpg = 6 gallons per hour
6 gallons ÷ 8 cylinders = .75 gallon per injector
Sounds close doesn't it?
Someone else can figure out how much went out the tailpipe. ;D
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Someone else can figure out how much went out the tailpipe.
After doing all the calculations .25 gallons of fuel an hour was the smoke that was coming out the exhuast.
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Someone else can figure out how much went out the tailpipe.
After doing all the calculations .25 gallons of fuel an hour was the smoke that was coming out the exhuast.
That's brilliant!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Tedsbusted and I have figured out more in 5 minutes than Williams did in 20 days. We will send you the bill!!...LOL ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry to bring this up but where exactly did the missing parts of the piston go and do they have any plans on checking to see if it's in the bottom end of the motor and if it is has it damaged the crank[
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While driving away from the first shop his wife, following in the toad, saw sparks flying from the exhaust pipe. I suspect that most of that chunk is rattling, in smaller pieces, around in the innards of his muffler. If he had a turbo they would be easier to find in the turbo impeller "filter". ;D
John
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John Ed,
The unsettling word in your post is the word "most". ;D ;D I am imagining that Marc is looking for the word "all". :D
I know that it feels like this situation was bad before but if he drives down the road and two months from now part of the "most" that didn't go out the exhaust decides to make a cameo. Now, folks that would really suck. :o
Here's hoping that between the oil filter, the oil change, the magnetic oil plug and good old thorough follow through on the part of the Williams folks gets rid of any remaining fragments.
Marc, I do agree with the earlier post that if they are pulling the pan roll in some new bearings. That can't be all that expensive while they are in there. iIwould at least get an estimate.
Good luck friend
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They have to drop the pan to do replace the piston, so I guess they will see. But since he could see the chunk missing when he removed the head, I am thinking it pushed it all out the top and out the exhaust valve.
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Marc, I do agree with the earlier post that if they are pulling the pan roll in some new bearings. That can't be all that expensive while they are in there. iIwould at least get an estimate.
Good luck friend
Given the numbers they have been quoting me so far, my estimate is one arm and one leg.
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It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you. If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner... it's just how it goes. A normal person just can't afford much in a pro shop these days. I recently had my eyes opened very wide, accompanied by a panic attack - my wife's mother fell and did soft tissue damage to her knee - a lot of pain, can't walk, and is too weak to be able to self transfer to a wheel chair or anything like that. she lives in a Retirement Villa sort of place, the rent is already $3K a month. We had to have an around the clock "personal support worker" to assist, which are tremendous people but the lowest possible tier of care workers making little more than minimum wage. $25 per hour to the agency, 24 hours a day = $600 a day or $4200 a week, or $18,000 if I had the serious misfortune to have to have need for that for a month...
Things just cost a lot these days if actual people are involved in the doing of them...
Brian
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They will see the rod bearing and crank journal when they replace the engine no need to give them any intention that you want to spend more money
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It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you. If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner... it's just how it goes.....
Yes, overhead will kill you, that's why I run both of our business out of our home. And I know that a National chain has extremely high overhead. That's why I am going to get them to do as little as I have to. If the bus needs more work, I will go to a smaller shop where they can afford to charge me less. I am jut a "normal person" as you say... (though some might disagree) ;D ;D ;D
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I'll start with the easy round numbers:
60mph @10mpg = 6 gallons per hour
6 gallons ÷ 8 cylinders = .75 gallon per injector
Sounds close doesn't it?
Someone else can figure out how much went out the tailpipe. ;D
I don't agree that the fuel in the oil came from the cylinder and I think this post sorta proves it.... With no compression I think "all" the injected fuel would go out the exhaust. You can't really subtract a whole lot from .75 to get it "down" to 1.0, not to put to fine an edge on it... ;D So at the very least, some fuel was coming from somewhere else and I think ALL the dilution was caused by leakage from injector plumbing that was worked on or disturbed by W. I have read lots of posts about fuel dilution caused by cracked or broken injector fuel lines. This puppy had no history of fuel dilution, the shop was into the injectors and afterwards there was a huge fuel leak and why the experts here are still mulling the "reason" just simply amazes me no end. No end! I am not saying that that is the reason conclusively...truly, I am not. But I think that needs to be eliminated and the current shop can be guaranteed to "NOT" find any loose/broken hoses to any injectors. They are already on record with "there is no fuel dilution" and it is easy to understand their reasoning/motivation.
I have copied that formula for determining fuel flow in a cylinder. wasn't deep but I have never seen it and it make intuitive sense. Thank you, Ted.
John
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It's scarier than that... The injector did NOT come apart, they showed it to me.
The scary part to me is why anyone would hang their hat on "anything" those birds had to say. Keep'em talking....for sure. Run the dialog past your good and well intensioned friends, but, don't draw any firm conclusions. I would view all that they say through the jaundiced lens of "what reason would they have to lie?" and keep smiling and nodding. They have proven themselves to be unreliable sources and that isn't our fault or attributable to any paranoia. Ask to see the oil analysis that states there is no fuel in your oil. Ask to see that and I'll bet they tell you you are unreasonable and not cooperating. How much?
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It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you. If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner... it's just how it goes. A normal person just can't afford much in a pro shop these days. I recently had my eyes opened very wide, accompanied by a panic attack - my wife's mother fell and did soft tissue damage to her knee - a lot of pain, can't walk, and is too weak to be able to self transfer to a wheel chair or anything like that. she lives in a Retirement Villa sort of place, the rent is already $3K a month. We had to have an around the clock "personal support worker" to assist, which are tremendous people but the lowest possible tier of care workers making little more than minimum wage. $25 per hour to the agency, 24 hours a day = $600 a day or $4200 a week, or $18,000 if I had the serious misfortune to have to have need for that for a month...
Things just cost a lot these days if actual people are involved in the doing of them...
Brian
And that is why we are blessed when we find an honest shop that is well intentioned and reasonable in assigning costs. Truly a great find. And we tell our friends, and, somewhat out of gratitude, we encourage patronage. By the same token, and to add value to our recommendations, we share our dismal experiences with a word of caution. To our friends.
We would be SOL if these enclaves of expertise were not available. And to think that they are all honest or fair or not opportunistic is to deny that power corrupts and that there is greed buried in the "for profit" model. Look at all the agencies dedicated to consumer protection and the mountain of tort law and then say that these people(all of us to be fair) don't need any policing or inflicted responsibility. For example: An airliner falling out of the sky due to faulty maint would be considered criminal and a tragedy by the FAA but the business community would see this as the airline industry "self correcting". Ya just gotta keep perspective.
John
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I give up on posting photos here I have some photos to show you guys what will happen guarantee that injector is not intact or they would not have replaced it, I still think he lost a tip first no compression it will build up fuel and run into the air box and back to the pan not out the tail pipe.
You guys not being there need to lighten up on Williams they have good techs now Montgomery is a ? just like a lot of DD shops that display the DD sign it maybe one for 4 strokes only you see that truck dealers across the USA.
I have never been into a major DD dealer that did not have good 2 stroke techs at Stewart and Stevenson the guys just about come to blows to see who gets the job on a 2 stroke lol and they do a ton of work on buses with the 2 stroke and so does Williams and the others depending om the location a DD dealers rates are around 90 bucks a hour and no extra charge for the RV
good luck
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They are going to email me some pics of the engine showing the damage. The mechanic said all the debris would have been blown out the exhaust. The fellow working on it seems like a good guy and really sounds like he knows his stuff. I'll post the pics when I get them.
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Marc if it can get pass the 4 small valves in the head it go out the exhaust if not it will stay there till it breaks into smaller pieces or goes out a cylinder port hole either way it is going to cost you valves or a head most of the time
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Not to distract from this thread post but I hope after MarC has his bus back that all you busnuts that have had good experiences from repair shops that do know how to trouble shoot and repair 2 stroke DD's and 4 stroke as well will post shop names, address and phone numbers.
I hope the moderators on this board can make a section special just for this information we can refer to while we travel on the road, on a Saturday & Sunday as well. We cannot expect Clifford to be there by the phone all the time for us but I do know he knows a lot of people and shops, I mean a lot of people that will help us on the road.
This experience MarC is going through is unfortunate for sure and many, many of us are pulling for him to have this resolved very soon. My stomach turns at just thinking of this happening to me if if it did, but if I knew a shop was within a reasonable distance that knew these ole girls I would do all I could to get there. This information is requested by those actually using these shops and not by word of mouth.
We all wish Cliff would start a DD repair shop chain but know he won't, hell, why not Cliff. Just Kidding!! Thanks Cliff for all you have done advising MarC during this unfortunate break down.
I am not sure if it is possible to also post towing packages that would allow us to choose the repair shop we want to use from the information from the recommended shops on the bb'd in the area we are traveling. I know many towing packages only bring you to the nearest repair facility which is not always affordable to us to consider. Are there towing packages available that will go up to say 150 miles to a reputable dd repair person or shop? If so is it legal to mention that here, we should all have this information to consider for our own conversion travels.
I am sure a lot of good will come out of this terrible break down of MarC's, I know I have different plans now with my engine before we go very far, if I ever get to go that is. I will, I will.
Good Luck MarC, we are all pulling for you buddy.
Garylee
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Chart1, yes the mechanic will see the rod bearing and the crankshaft rod journal, but unless Marc asks to remove a main cap he won't be able to see the condtion of the main bearings.
I side with Clifford, I don't think that Williams is going to "run" up the bill with the exposure that is on the forums right now.
However, it is in Marc's best interest to have some peace of mind to know how the conditions of his bearings are. Who knows, they might need to be replaced, and then they might have some life in them. Rod and Main bearings don't cost much, it is the labor that is the bulk of the dollars.
Marc hasn't told us if he is handy with a wrench, or if he has the patients to pull his oil pan and roll bearing in. Right now he has the chance to see what the condition of his bearings are.
Speculating that the mechanic is going to pull a bearing out and "rig" the results is out of line. I highly doubt Williams is going to go out of there way to stick it to him.
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I highly doubt Williams is going to go out of there way to stick it to him.
Sorry if I dont share your optimism. All ive learned from this is that Williams wont stand behind their work, and their word isnt worth a plugged nickle.
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I was going to post this as a response to the Coach-net thread, but I am going to try to keep posts on topic, so I will answer it here... The question was why not spend $1,000 on a used engine....
What Brandon said (on the Coach-net thread) is exactly right. The choice is not $1,000 for a running used engine vs. $3,800 for repairing the existing engine... If I were to get a used one, I would have first had to get the bus home, which would probably be largely at my own cost since I doubt Coach-Net would pay for that distance, while passing a bunch of shops... Then actually find a $1,000 (or more) deal on an engine that runs good... Arrange to go get it... Then, since I can't swap it myself, I would have to find somebody honest and trustworthy around here who would be willing and able to do the engine swap (Finding someone like that around here is not an easy task, believe me). And even at that point, as Brandon pointed out, I would likely have had to spend some money on that engine. For example, wouldn't it be prudent to pull the heads and have a look... And pull the pan and have a look at the bearings? What if it doesn't look so good in there? You're right back to square one, spending money on a used engine.
And as far as getting it home, you can say you wouldn't care if it blows up... But my wife was with me, I am not going to knowingly put her in the frightening position that we could be stranded somewhere unsafe on the side of the road on our first trip in the bus. Can you imagine the engine blowing in our beautiful Eagle on I-85 ramp in the middle of Atlanta?
This all began with my spending $1,200, then investing in the tow (hopefully to be rembursed), now we are looking at a $3,800 quote, but with a $1,200 credit toward that bill. This all happened incrementally.
One thing I will be able to say about the engine already in the bus is that it ran perfect for 800 miles and the thing that went wrong will be fixed. And I was more than thrilled with the way it ran before.
Art, I really, honestly do appreciate all the empathy. Your sincerity makes me feel like we aren't in it alone. And it pains me more than anyone else that I will have $3,500-$4,000 in this repair, but when you consider all the other factors, I still say from this point in time,that this is the fastest and least expensive way to get the bus back on the road.
Hindsight is 20/20. So if I knew all of this back in Montgomery before I spent dollar #1, I would probably have looked for a good used engine around there and left the bus there to be fixed.
But once you're half way through the woods, it's just as far to turn around as to keep going.
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When you pay a 1000 bucks for a engine Marc that is what you get a 1000 dollar engine and may take you a week to change parts over if it didn't come from the same year and model of bus example Eagle and MCI engines don't mix
good luck
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.....Plus, the way this it unfolded, I thought the problem might have been something they would cover from the first repair or be something relatively simple like a broken fuel line.
.............. Hindsight is 20/20. So if I knew all of this back in Montgomery before I spent dollar #1, I would probably have looked for a good used engine around there and left the bus, but once you're half way through the woods, it's just as far to turn around as keep going.
BTDTGTTS or as Shakespeare said "we're in blood so far steeped now that turning back were as perilous as go o'er"
And after the fact you can bank on having plenty of armchair experts ready to second guess your decisions every step of the way. We did a similar process a few years ago in New Jersey except that our final bill came out around $18k. When I was all done though I knew exactly what I had. Like Clifford said, a thousand dollar engine is a thousand dollar engine.
I know you don't need my approval for your decisions but from here it looks like you are making them logically and in the right order. Good luck.
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When you pay a 1000 bucks for a engine Marc that is what you get a 1000 dollar engine and may take you a week to change parts over if it didn't come from the same year and model of bus example Eagle and MCI engines don't mix
good luck
Another good point, Clifford.
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.....Plus, the way this it unfolded, I thought the problem might have been something they would cover from the first repair or be something relatively simple like a broken fuel line.
.............. Hindsight is 20/20. So if I knew all of this back in Montgomery before I spent dollar #1, I would probably have looked for a good used engine around there and left the bus, but once you're half way through the woods, it's just as far to turn around as keep going.
BTDTGTTS or as Shakespeare said "we're in blood so far steeped now that turning back were as perilous as go o'er"
Ah, doesn't it figure that a Shakespeare quote would become apropos at some point during all of this. ;D
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When you buy a 1000 dollar engine running or not you are buying a core or parts engine.
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You got the picture Cory lol, but in life you take the hand that you were dealt I don't think William S said that
good luck
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Here's another Shakespeare quote that fits...
"When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions" :-\
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Had a van breakdown on me while on the road with the wife and kids the other day. Bloody modern van with tons of electronics, switched some relays around, checked all the fuses, unplugged the ecm to see if it would limp home etc....no go on anything. Called the tow and a taxi to the nearest town, local shop diagnosed nonsense (we had continued in another van) on the phone they sounded like they had got it fixed with a reboot of the ecm (yeah right) but they said it was running. $300 fro diagnosis and fuel pressure checking etc...van made it 10 miles before dying again on the side of highway. Another tow back to the shop, this time they switched in a new coil (BS as the van is still running rough) they tried to charge me another $300 for the 2nd visit...Haha they must be nuts, I agreed to pay for the coil only no other charges, van made it 100 miles back to town, I don't trust it and need to find the real fault before I do. Usually I do all my own repairs/ diagnosing but there was no time/place/weather (snow storm both times) so I was at the mercy of the shop and every time that happens I am not pleased with the result, even when I have been right there looking over his shoulder I watched a mech pull apart a CV joint for no reason other than ignorance I then had to try to reassemble it on my own time.
All this to say sorry you are having these problems, I know how they tend to compound themselves and good money starts chasing bad. Personally I would eventually go after the first shop for doing unnecessary BS work and replacement of what sounds like it may have been a still good injector, since it is a big chain you might be surprised when you really start complaining. If my bill had been bigger I would have done more to get the first service call reduced.
When it is all right again maybe it is time to get some overalls and plenty of hand cleaner and do the next repair yourself. :) These things are really just big jigsaw puzzles, other than the legendary "running of the rack" which I have yet to de-mystify.
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Now there is one thing I think I have learned that would help to avoid a repeat of this expensive nightmare... Get a spare engine! If I could find a good core for somewhere around $1,000 and rebuild it over time, then put it up, that would be insurance against this happening again.
Even if the engine failure happened on the road, I could go get my new engine and trailer it to where the bus was and have someone there do an R&R. Or, as Art said, limp home, and even if you destroyed your current engine, it wouldn't matter if it got you back.
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Hi Marc! Remember this, "I have never owned a diesel anything. But I am a quick study and engross myself into anything I get interested in. I am no mechanic, but I am mechanically inclined, and do many of my own repairs in general" , Now's the time to get busy, having paid for my education already ::), I can honestly say, if you can twirl some 1"+ wrenches and have a few additional resources you'll get the best education for your money by swapping the engine out yourself (if that is your next step) once you have it home ;). On the other hand, shelling out a good chuck of dough to a reputable establishment is OK I guess too ;D Good luck!
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Van speaks from experience the first engine Don and I helped the second engine because he forgot to check the oil in hydraulic fan was all on him but I did help him roll the engine in lol and he did do it all on his own and made for a wiser young man in the process.
I furnished him drinking water and food he would work to about 10 pm at night and he got her done I know it was cold on my part lol but a good education does not come cheap huh Van,Jim and Doyle have also been through my school
good luck
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Is that the Lovrbus School of Diesel? And you grduate with a masters in Busnut Technology!! Where do I sign up?
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First off, until all of this came up I was a bit more ignorant than I am right now. Had it been me, two weeksago, I would most likely have found my way into the same deal Marc had. I dont know as I would have been able to sit still 9 days watching work come through ahead of me without going berzerk, but still. $1200 and on my way, again, the shop had a stellar reputation, not a ton of money, lets burn some road...
I probably would have come a bit unglued when I came back and they told me the engines junk, after taking $1200 of my hard earned money to fix it, and send me down the road without saying it was junk to begin with. But they worked on it some more and im back with Marc again.
I was also alongside for the tow, fully believing that Williams was really going to step up to the plate and take care of business. However, when they said no fuel in the oil, I might have just pulled the plug right there and then. You can only betray trust so many times.
Running a bad engine home? Taking chances? Well, I dont know about you, but I thank the Lord every day I open my eyes again. Ive almost been killed more times than I can count, and always something where something made me turn and see it coming at the last second. So there is enough risk just to breathing to keep a man excited. Why worry about things you cant control?
They overhauled a big Continental in a Beech Debonair, basically a V tail Bonanza (kind Buddy Holly was in) with a straight tail. Bob did all the engine work but the crank was sent out to an aircraft crank shop. Continental cranks have lead plugs they smash in the holes to plug the oil galleys.
So we got it all back together, new prop, yada yada, we done a lot of work on that girl. Time to take her up and fly for the one hour flight you do on a new engine before you return it to service. Man what a blast, she flew sweet, motor ran "perfect", cept for slightly low oil pressure. Next day Bob ran her up to warm it, then shimmed the relief valve to punch up the pressure a few pounds. Fired her up, let her warm while he cycled the prop, then poured the coal to her. I wasnt there, but by all accounts it never reached full power before it suddenly went quiet. Bob said he never saw an engine stop so fast. Three guys couldnt turn the prop after, it was froze solid. Diagnosis: a lead plug came out, instant siezure.
So I flew in an airplane with a brand new engine for one hour, that had maybe 5 minutes of life left in it when we set her down on Gods green pasture. When I think of where we flew that day, over lakes, some places we flew rather low, well, you better laugh cause it will scare the hell out you if you dont. Its not unheard of for an engine to rip itself right out of a plane when it locks up. So I think about stuff like that when im flying down the highway watching the little white lines blow under the nose and thread out behind me through the mirror. The tractor that almost pushed my into a huge fire pit while I had my back to it, and a voice that said "look". The giant implement tire that came off a semi on the freeway, went a hundred feet in the air, and bounced off the road 4 feet in front of a blond in a VW. She never saw it, just drove along like nothing happened. The time we drifted toward a dam and the engine engine wouldnt start.
So I just dont think ill worry to much about an old Detroit bangin away in the back trying to die, ill just plan my way of escape better.
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Wow, you've had some close calls alright. Glad you're still with us! ;D ;D ;D
I guess the important thing in any situation is to have a "plan B". What I mean is know in advance what you will do in case of an emergency. What plan B is to you might be different than what mine is, but I think in life, you have to have one for everything. Otherwise, when disaster strikes, you run around like a chicken with it's head cut off. At least with a "Plan B", you already know what you are going to do and how to proceed.
On the Williams situation, it's not over yet. I still hold out hope for an overall positive outcome. And I will reserve my own personal judgement of the company until I am completely done with the deal.
I can't really second guess myself because the more I think about it the more I realize that I would have done the exact same thing again if I didn't already know what the outcome would be (and we never do).
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Marc??? Whens the Beauty going to makes its way into North Carolina?? Need any help getting to Atlanta or someone to follow you back??
Jimmy
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Brian,
I couldn't be in more sympathy with what you are saying. I take full issue with it costing $400/day to coordinate the availability of three people on site. That is 120% overhead with no plant assets or even a facility. I think you are being a trifle overly sympathetic in that regard. But, again, I agree with you about the cost of doing business. I have never begrudged a man his earned pay or other compensation and when possible I have been generous and even added money to the bill in good conscience. Nothing in this post shouldn't be understood in that light even if I misspoke in some instance.
I once had to task into a Gummint Agency to have some software engineering and other computer services done. When I got their estimate I was flabbergasted that their labor rate was $400/hr. 400! Of course we had to talk about that before I would authorize the funding. Turns out that the powers that be had consolidated a weapons depot that handles nuclear weapons and had had a new railroad system installed, including two locomotives, with the engineering facility. Weapons don't get any funding from anybody but the shooters and the cost to support the depot was breaking some funding backs. To spread the "burden" they annexed a few other facilities into the pot and spread the load over a broader spectrum of Gummint projects. Dirty pool? Maybe. I thought so and I resent hiding charges and deferring costs. BUT that was the game being played so we all had no choice. That was the best money I ever invested and the products I got from them shook the earth....by the way.
John
It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you. If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner... it's just how it goes. A normal person just can't afford much in a pro shop these days. I recently had my eyes opened very wide, accompanied by a panic attack - my wife's mother fell and did soft tissue damage to her knee - a lot of pain, can't walk, and is too weak to be able to self transfer to a wheel chair or anything like that. she lives in a Retirement Villa sort of place, the rent is already $3K a month. We had to have an around the clock "personal support worker" to assist, which are tremendous people but the lowest possible tier of care workers making little more than minimum wage. $25 per hour to the agency, 24 hours a day = $600 a day or $4200 a week, or $18,000 if I had the serious misfortune to have to have need for that for a month...
Things just cost a lot these days if actual people are involved in the doing of them...
Brian
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While ether sounds plausible, running sweet for 500 miles and suddenly going Kaboom makes a guy think something more catastrophic happened.
It's scarier than that... The injector did NOT come apart, they showed it to me. And I drove it 800 miles without even a hint of trouble. It all happened at once and completely without warning.
[/quote]
This makes so little sense. If the piston threw a chunk and bent all four valves I think it is not possible that the injector head/nipple went unscathed. Still, it couldn't have run so sweet with the bent valves and you did note a loss of power but no a dilution of fuel in the original failure episode.
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There was definitely fuel in the oil. I don't care what they try to say. I watched it go from 2 quarts down to 2 quarts over in an hour. It blotted the rag like water and smelled like diesel.
So Jumpsuit suspects roughly one gallon of fuel dilution in an hour?
I think the dilution was greater than a single gallon. I have read many times that 15 W 40 is consumed at a faster rate than straight 40W. The reason presented was that the thinner oil goes thru seals and past rings much easier. Clifford said that a single gallon dilution should not have torched the bearings and I will take his word without question. How much the oil was was diluted can be determined with a "specific Gravity" test of the oil and that is a simple test. Not much math involved either. Just gotta have a sample you are confident in.
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John Ed,
The unsettling word in your post is the word "most". ;D ;D I am imagining that Marc is looking for the word "all". :D
/quote]
Now see, that's what is meant by Pa. humor. Understatement at the worst possible instance. Its like asking if someone is dead and getting "mostly" as an answer.
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While ether sounds plausible, running sweet for 500 miles and suddenly going Kaboom makes a guy think something more catastrophic happened.
It's scarier than that... The injector did NOT come apart, they showed it to me. And I drove it 800 miles without even a hint of trouble. It all happened at once and completely without warning.
This makes so little sense. If the piston threw a chunk and bent all four valves I think it is not possible that the injector head/nipple went unscathed. Still, it couldn't have run so sweet with the bent valves and you did note a loss of power but no a dilution of fuel in the original failure episode.
[/quote]
I was surprised when I saw it intact. The mechanic even said... "Even the tip is there."
I asked if I could have it, but there was a $61 core charge.
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It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you. If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days),
Things just cost a lot these days if actual people are involved in the doing of them...
Brian
If fuel really tops $5 and stays there, the merry go round is going to come to a screeching halt. No more new home construction, no more new appliances, no more shiney new cars. They can want $100 hour all they want, but if everyones out of work, they will be too.
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I am really confused here are we talking about the first injector removed and replaced in Montgomery or the one removed in Atlanta when they pulled the head I am missing something here ?
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Clifford, I think the first injector took a dump?
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The only injector that was ever replaced was the one in Montgomery. I saw it with my own two eyes and it was completely intact. I asked for it, but it had a core return. The only thing that seemed wrong with it was the lever was kind of loose. The tip was there, all the guts were still in it.
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Marc??? Whens the Beauty going to makes its way into North Carolina?? Need any help getting to Atlanta or someone to follow you back??
Jimmy
LOL. I wish I knew, Jimmy. Thanks for the offer. I might just take you up on it.
Marc
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Should have got photos of that one I bet money there was a section missing on the tip or it would not have run some better after the repairs
good luck
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Should have got photos of that one I bet money there was a section missing on the tip or it would not have run some better after the repairs
good luck
Looking back on it, it had a miss when it first went bad, and it still had a miss when I got it back from them. I only heard it run smooth once right after the third time they tried to give it back. It smoked when I dropped it off and it still smoked when I picked it up. I'm not sure that I could say it was running any better at all.
The only difference is that it was smoking more at idle when I dropped it off.
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[quote author=thejumpsuitman link=topic=19110.msg208847#msg208847 date=1299369372
I was surprised when I saw it intact. The mechanic even said... "Even the tip is there."
I asked if I could have it, but there was a $61 core charge.
[/quote]
In hindsight, it may well have been $61 well spent for when they deny it wasnt damaged.
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I don't think it really matters. The mechanic's theory was that the piston was cracked from stress caused by ether. Like I said before, we will never know what really happened.
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First off, until all of this came up I was a bit more ignorant than I am right now. Had it been me, two weeksago, I would most likely have found my way into the same deal Marc had. I dont know as I would have been able to sit still 9 days watching work come through ahead of me without going berzerk, but still. $1200 and on my way, again, the shop had a stellar reputation, not a ton of money, lets burn some road...
I probably would have come a bit unglued when I came back and they told me the engines junk, after taking $1200 of my hard earned money to fix it, and send me down the road without saying it was junk to begin with. But they worked on it some more and im back with Marc again.
I was also alongside for the tow, fully believing that Williams was really going to step up to the plate and take care of business. However, when they said no fuel in the oil, I might have just pulled the plug right there and then. You can only betray trust so many times.
I am with you on that 100% I would have paid to have it towed anywhere else. Anywhere I thought I could get even the barest of a competent job. Anywhere!
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After church today I was talking with a guy who works on construction equipment... Turns out he is an old 2-stroke guy! He said just the other day he was rebuilding a 3-71on a piece of equipment. I may have local help after all! Now if I had only invited him on our trip to pick up the bus! ;D
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Artvonne and John Ed
We all get your viewpoint on this so let's move on shall we.
Let's be done with talking about folks that aren't here to respond and while we're at it, let's realize these are people we're talking about. People who just like us make mistakes and just like us have families. They're not monsters, they're folks like us trying to make a living.
They also have made and kept commitments to fix this situation.
This horse is dead let's quit beating it alright?
RB
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Horse? We got a horse in all this now?
When & how did the horse die? And why on earth are we beating this poor horse's body.
Did this horse cause all of this?
I am totally lost, I thought we were talking about Eagles and now we got a beaten dead horse!
;D BK ;D
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I am with you on that 100% I would have paid to have it towed anywhere else. Anywhere I thought I could get even the barest of a competent job. Anywhere!
[/quote]
Even If you had a warranty for the work you just paid for and was going to get that money credited and told they would pay for the tow to go to in fact a different shop!!
Huh.. You do make mistakes too... you are human
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Artvonne and John Ed
We all get your viewpoint on this so let's move on shall we.
Let's be done with talking about folks that aren't here to respond and while we're at it, let's realize these are people we're talking about. People who just like us make mistakes and just like us have families. They're not monsters, they're folks like us trying to make a living.
They also have made and kept commitments to fix this situation.
This horse is dead let's quit beating it alright?
RB
Rick,
You are right about most of it. Yes, Art and I seem to be in sync and of common mind. It is a dead issue and has been overdone by me. I do appreciate your calling me on it.
Chart,
If they were doing all those things you mentioned I would be delighted and you couldn't drive me from that shop to get the work done elsewhere. But Rick seems to have raised a good point and I will accommodate him(and maybe others) and let this dead horse lie. We will tell BK it is a dead Egglle to avoid further confusing him, bless his heart. ;D ;D ;D
John
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John, from what I've heard, BK is a big boy, go ahead and tell him the truth, the horse is dead and gone! Eagles don't die, they just fade to rust (oops)
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Almost got to the point of politics....LOL ;D
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If they were doing all those things you mentioned I would be delighted and you couldn't drive me from that shop to get the work done elsewhere.
If they were doing half as well as we thought they should we probably wouldnt have heard half as much about them.
As far as the people in question, crooks are people too ya know. And if a nut like me can find his way here, im sure someone from the place in question could as well.
As far as a dead horse, and hitting one with a stick, or other implement, I never hit a horse, dead or otherwise, and take offense at the suggestion. Now there was that guy up in Wisconsin who was seen hitting a dead horse...
I went to look at a Bus down here. It was on Dead Horse Mountain Road. Honest.
Elvis has left the building.
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There is a Dead Horse State Park in AZ. :)
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Ok guys there is a thread in the off topic for dead horses...If you are tired about hearing this topic dont click on it.
Marc, LET US KNOW IF YOU HEAR ANYTHING FROM WILLIAMS A LOT OF US ARE STILL CURIOUS OF THE OUTCOME.
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I expect to hear something today. I was looking forward to seeing the pictures of the damage, but he hasn't sent them yet.
Again, I reserve final judgement until this whole ordeal is over. Their shop in Montgomery needs a spanking, but if they make it right in the end, "all sins are forgiven."
By the way, this is now the #1 most replied-to bus-related post in BCM history... (if you don't count sticky threads)... And it's dead horse by a nose!... :P ::)
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Ok guys there is a thread in the off topic for dead horses...If you are tired about hearing this topic don't click on it.
Marc, LET US KNOW IF YOU HEAR ANYTHING FROM WILLIAMS A LOT OF US ARE STILL CURIOUS OF THE OUTCOME.
Profound wisdom!
Now that is well said. Really! Much of this ta-do is about other nuts posting. Not a discussion about what they said, so much, but more to the point that they shouldn't have said anything at all or are repetitive.
I would add that if you are fatigued with a particular poster there is ALWAYS the ignore button. Sadly that is the selected option of wussus that are unable to make their point and choose the Rush option of hanging up when a question you don't like is raised even once.
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Come on... I just want hear the outcome and then it will be all done. It's like watching a good movie and you can't wait to see how it ends. Cant we all just get along!!!! ;D
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I just got 4 pics from the mechanic at W.W. Williams. Here they are...
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/Engine1.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/Engine2.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/Engine3.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/Engine4.jpg)
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She has had water in there before looking at the liners has been a little warm
good luck
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So, what do the other three clyinders on that bank look like?
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The piston top and head look like they have been shot peened or blasted with gravel. Did the chunk of piston do this or is it some sort of normal? If it was the piston and it got the entire innards surface hammered then why are there carbon deposits on the valves? And I thought the valves were broken/bent and that jug had zero compression. While it looks bad I would think that cylinder would build at least a little compression.
Water damage and "hot" would seem to have happened prior to JSM taking possession or am I missing something Clifford?
john
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Well, I’m not a diesel mechanic but looks like maybe a new liner, piston, mill head and fix the valves, and your back on the road. That’s assuming that the piston parts went out the exhaust. Did they give you their thoughts? Have they removed the valves yet? Hard to know if the seats are damaged. I’m pullin for you. jm
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Well, I’m not a diesel mechanic but looks like maybe a new liner, piston, mill head and fix the valves, and your back on the road. That’s assuming that the piston parts went out the exhaust. Did they give you their thoughts? Have they removed the valves yet? Hard to know if the seats are damaged. I’m pullin for you. jm
They said the exact same thing, so that's the plan.
Marc
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It looks to me the engine got hot and was shut off with that piston up top and the ring bonded to the liner as it cooled. Then upon restart the downward motion of the piston broke off a peice where the ring was siezed up. Just a thought. There are no marks where it hit the valves.HUH?
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Williams will probably check the rod anyway but I would replace the rod also after all it's only money Marc lol
good luck
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I don't see where the valves are damaged. Is it possible that the engine had the piston chunk come off, was taken down and the min was to replace the valves to "get it out the door"? If water was a problem could the piston crown have been broken by hydraulic lock? Hydraulic lock would approximate too much either....no?
I know it must seem to some that we are "beating a dead horse", and I understand that eval, but, understanding the full scope of the thing and, very importantly for those of us not savvy in matters DD, what are the lessons learned?
hank you all,
John
Chart's theory seems to have merit. No? does that sort of thing happen often to an overheated engine? Wouldn't you get the same result if it "seized" anywhere on the down stroke? Why only at TDC?
John
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First hand experience with an over heated mill, you'll crack the head. On mine, the pistons and rings were fine! Wonder if something might have been floating around in the air box and... :)
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2 different animals here Van he has a 71 dry liner heads are different the 6v92 will crack a head if the forecast in Vegas says 118 today lol
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It looks to me that those are different cylinders the one that is busted doesn't show the fuel burn pattern on top of the piston.
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They faxed me this.... :( :( :( :( :( :( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/Estimatescan.jpg)
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No word on the credit from the previous work? If you can get the tow $'s back those 2 figures would help alot. Got our fingers crossed. good luck.
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Is it done? that's a lot of dough :o :o :-\
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They agreed to re-credit me the roughly $1,200 already paid in Montgomery... The tow bill they are laying on me. I have requested a copy to send to my roadside service company.
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It looks to me that those are different cylinders the one that is busted doesn't show the fuel burn pattern on top of the piston.
GOOD EYE!
I think the diagnosis is going to be that a complete rebuild is called for. Hope I am wrong. Are those cylinders badly scored? He used to have good compression given "no smoke" and "good" power.
John
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Your right Clifford! no exp on 871's, but what about the dished piston vs the flat one, or are my eyes shot! lol
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Would you have paid 6-7K more for that bus if you had to?
I really feel for you, makes me afraid to go more than a couple hundred miles from home.
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Your right Clifford! no exp on 871's, but what about the dished piston vs the flat one, or are my eyes shot! lol
Van,
That is so scary. I didn't notice that there were two different type pistons.
My eye is failing, still. :(
John
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Is it done? that's a lot of dough :o :o :-\
They have not started yet. They just faxed me the estimate for approval.
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Let this simmer on the board for a day. More info and advice can't hurt at this point.
Really sad to see this. Are the prices in line? If BK is still speaking to us/me I think he might have an idea of what is the norm. Call Luke at US coach for opinions and answers. What would Choo Choo charge or is the water too muddy for even a comment on that. Smart to stay far far away I know.
Ten years ago the machine shop charge for sizing and straightening a con rod was way less than replacement. A bent rod gave a distinct signature on the cylinder wall and piston. Different with DD?
John
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That's the cost of one hole? Ouch! What about finding a good used take out or do a re-power with a 6V92ta? If I were to start spending that kind of money I would want something with a little more scoot put back in.
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I spoke with Clifford a little bit ago. He assured me that with using genuine Detroit Diesel parts, that bill is in line. He also figures that give all that has happened and all the trouble we had in Montgomery, that they would make sure it comes out of there 100%, checking bearings, etc..
There are people out there a lot worse off than me in their buses. Hopefully I am getting my big "ouch" out of the way quickly.
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Your right Clifford! no exp on 871's, but what about the dished piston vs the flat one, or are my eyes shot! lol
I think they are all dished if you look at them closley. The piston that is busted has no fuel burn pattern at all. Whats up with that? If this was a new problem wouldnt there be old burn pattern on the piston? confused here. Maybe clifford could answer that one.
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Another question is if the valves where bent would they be closed all the way? I have seen many bent valves in auto heads usually the valves do not seat flush after being bent? Just been studing the pictures.
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Sorry Marc! Lemme clarify the "Lotta Dough" comment I made, didn't mean it to sound like the amount was outta line, just that it is a lot of moo la. I'm from B'KLYN now can you tell LOL!
Van
AYE! ;D
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Sorry Marc! Lemme clarify the "Lotta Dough" comment I made, didn't mean it to sound like the amount was outta line, just that it is a lot of moo la. I'm from B'KLYN now can you tell LOL!
Van
AYE! ;D
That's a lotta dough for me too! In fact, that's about all of it. We will get it paid, but OUCH!!!!. We were going to buy a Cherokee 4x4 with that money... :( :( :(
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Just one of the finer points of owning such a machine. Granted it sucks and we all shiver thinking about going through just such an ordeal. Wasn't it last year that Bob of the North got a total rebuild at Lukes? I'm sure there was some puckering factor there also but it wasn't like someone taking advantage of him. It is what it is. I don't know what your position financially is Marc but if I was in your position I would go the total rebuild route, save the documents and be on my way. If that bus had a documented rebuild with whatever quarantee goes with it before you bought it would you have kicked in another 10-12 grand? Any upgrade to a 92 or 60 series will involve more than a rebuild of the 71 and then you are still talking used. Sounds like you have good heads. 5 or 6 grand is almost 1/2 way there. It won't hurt to ask. Later
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Re: Smoking. Cracked ring...??? What to do
Block the injector shut and drive it home. Thats what ya should have done, and thats what I'll do if I'm ever faced with something simular.
But that comes only with the 20/20 hindsight that this adventure has given me.
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When piston parts go threw valves there is usually signs of trauma. Normally the head looks like it was beat with the sharp end of a hammer and the seats are shot and the valves get bent (at least). Same with the piston. I don’t see and don’t understand why there is no damage in these areas. The head looks like it has suffered from water damage, not like damage from physical contact. Easier to diagnose in person for sure, but I am curious how that much piston escaped past those valves with no damage.
I worked at an engine rebuild shop for a couple of years. I was the tear down guy. I’ve seen just about every kind of engine failure you can imagine. Rods that looked like pretzels, cams broken (but still running) same with cranks. I gotta admit, these pics have me stumped. You could always do a backyard repair on it. Run a berry hone on the cylinder, find a close enough piston, slap it back together, have it on the road for a couple of hundred... Might last 10 miles or 10,000. Marc really hoping for the best for you. My own bus hasn’t left the yard yet. JM
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Marc,
Just a thought. This thread has gotten kinda long. If it was me, I would start a new thread now. Briefly summarize what has happened, include the estimate, and link to this thread. It might help some people be able to follow the thread.
FWIW
BTW, I am sorry for all of your troubles. That is rough....
God bless,
John
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What about this option:
http://goldcountry.craigslist.org/pts/2250257159.html (http://goldcountry.craigslist.org/pts/2250257159.html)
I have no interest in the above add. I've been reading your posts the past few days and seen this while looking for spare bus parts.
I have seen this ebay seller part out buses , might be a good engine avail through him ( I'm not way connected to him/her either)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eagle-Bus-MCI-5-Bus-third-member-373-gears-/180636226260?pt=Buses&hash=item2a0ec212d4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eagle-Bus-MCI-5-Bus-third-member-373-gears-/180636226260?pt=Buses&hash=item2a0ec212d4)
I know I've kick around at our local bus shops and found a pile of NOS GM bus parts stored away from when they were a GM Coach dealer. Another bus shop had an extra allison 4 speed on the shelf at a fair price and they also had a MCI 8 with lots of parts avail if I pull them, plus LOTS of misc items just sitting on the self they saved for years.
I'm just 33 years old but I've learned ( with the help of my wonderful wife ) to just calm down sometimes and go drive around and scratch the dirt. I'm amazed what will pop up when I take my blinders off.
Best luck
Bill in KS
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It does look strange indeed but it is what it is. I guess I would be afraid that one of the seven remaining may be on the verge of a similar demise. What would really suck is to pay that much to fix one hole and have another let go. What is the ball park for a rebuild. 12-14 grand?
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When they pull the liner and clean out the air box they will find the rest of piston along with missing pieces of the liner ports it didn't go out the valves you should see a head that a injector tip comes off pretty much junk,Marc will be ok replacing one liner and piston just one of the diesel engines things you guys know S*** happens to the best of us
good luck
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I guess I would be afraid that one of the seven remaining may be on the verge of a similar demise.
Why be afraid? Williams stands behind their work, dont they? Shouldnt he trust them?
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Paul you need to need to take a rest here man Marc has a plate full and you are not helping much
good luck
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If it were me, at this point I think that I would approach the shop for the: One-time, as-is, no guarantee, (but do the best you can) out-the-door, the last you'll hear of this episode, rock-bottom, best buddy cash price; to assemble the engine with one correctly repaired hole to get this whole deal behind both of us. We part on friendly terms and in the future we'll hope to do business again, with a better situation.
I wonder if this engine shows any evidence of a recent pre-Montgomery opening? Fresh pan or head gasket, paint off of the inspection covers, etc.?
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well the 1200. credit helps and if you can get the towing out of the equation, your in the 3000. plus tax range. not too bad. now if we could charge a fee for posting on this topic we could raise some real $. And a better deal will come along on a cherokkee for sure (with the high gas prices ;) ) Get the service manager to go for a ride with you and make sure everyone is happy. being a mechanic or in the service business can be a thankless job, bet they are doing the right thing. Just read Teds busted post. Ditto
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Paul you need to need to take a rest here man Marc has a plate full and you are not helping much
good luck
Fair enough.
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UPDATE....
Yesterday I got a call from W.W. Williams saying that we needed to pay half of the invoice total ($5,275) for them to get started on the repair. This total includes the tow bill which I would have had to seek reimbursement on myself.
Today, they have called me back saying that Williams is going to take care of the tow bill themselves!!!!! And that they are not requiring any down payment for them to start the repairs!
KUDOS to W.W. Williams for doing what I think most of us would agree is the "right thing!"
I asked the office manager to whom I owe my gratitude (Although I know I owe it to God)...
She said it was the SE President Aven Sharp who made the decision.
I am so incredibly thrilled to be able to post positive news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
She said parts have been ordered and repairs are underway! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That is awesome! Way to keep your cool and keep soldering on! I guess I now know about a great chain of diesel shops.
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That is GREAT news!! Now you are are right in the ball park for the parts and labor that they are doing compared to the new bill. It is just great to hear that the SE President cares enough about an independent bus owner to make that decision.
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Marc,
That is great news. I really expected them to say that. They really are a good company.
So they said that they would take care of your tow bill? I missed exactly what they were going to take care of.
Anyway, I am happy for you.
God bless,
John
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Marc, if you ever get to Phoenix let me know I have a friend at WW Williams you need to meet he his the southwest guy and I am sure he is reading this lol
good luck
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The gesture to pay the tow bill and re-credit me for the Montgomery goes a long way with me. This way, I feel I am paying out of pocket a fair amount for the repairs, given the high cost of Detroit Diesel factory parts.
It took a lot of effort and persistence on my part, but in the end, I think it has paid off. I have no problem paying a fair amount for repairs as long as they are willing to take responsibility for their mistakes. And now I believe they have.
Marc
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The gesture to pay the tow bill and re-credit me for the Montgomery goes a long way with me. This way, I feel I am paying out of pocket a fair amount for the repairs, given the high cost of Detroit Diesel factory parts.
It took a lot of effort and persistence on my part, but in the end, I think it has paid off. I have no problem paying a fair amount for repairs as long as they are willing to take responsibility for their mistakes. And now I believe they have.
Marc
Nice to see that you came out of it Okay, I told you they were "stand up kind of folks" and they just proved it. What ends well, stays well.
BCO
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Yep and he still has one more shot at the bill lol
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When it's all said and done it would be nice to have the address of the big wig in charge so that many of us can send him a word of thanks and appreciation for how they handled everything. Just a thought....
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When it's all said and done it would be nice to have the address of the big wig in charge so that many of us can send him a word of thanks and appreciation for how they handled everything. Just a thought....
I was told that the man most responsible for making this happen is the Southeast President, Aven Sharp. It would be fine with me if someone sent a not to him through the website and let him know how we all appreciate his attention to this matter.
Marc
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305 post and everything is working out! Great news Marc. This is why we should not post negative post about a business until the entire siutuation has been resolved. Those negative post will still be there as long as there is an internet, even though the company "did the right thing". Jack
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You are right, Jack. And that's why I am not going to hesitate to "sing their praises" for doing the right thing!!! ;D ;D ;D
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I guess I am a pessimist... They are talking the talk, but the head is still off...they have to fix the thing yet! ::)
I'm a guy who's seen engines do a ton of stupid things to ever-optimistic owners. Like I tell people, magnafluxing a crank only tells you it ain't cracked now - it could crack while you are cranking up oil pressure! Even a brand new engine carries a certain risk. I'm sitting here sayin' to myself that this is going to be an engine with 12.5% new pistons, and I'm crossing my fingers that the other 87.5% don't have sympathy for the attention!
Brian
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When it's all said and done it would be nice to have the address of the big wig in charge so that many of us can send him a word of thanks and appreciation for how they handled everything. Just a thought....
Let there be no doubt.....a small wave of "letters of appreciation" is called for here. Both to SE Prez and....
And Clifford....here is yours: Thank you Clifford for involving the person in WWW that had the Horse Power to resolve this difficulty for Marc in a fair manner. Your generosity, talent/skills and contacts/influence still amaze me. We are very lucky to have you with us.
And I really mean it this time. ;D
Be well, Sir.
John
PS: Your PM copy is in the mail.
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I guess I am a pessimist... They are talking the talk, but the head is still off...they have to fix the thing yet! ::)
I'm a guy who's seen engines do a ton of stupid things to ever-optimistic owners. Like I tell people, magnafluxing a crank only tells you it ain't cracked now - it could crack while you are cranking up oil pressure! Even a brand new engine carries a certain risk. I'm sitting here sayin' to myself that this is going to be an engine with 12.5% new pistons, and I'm crossing my fingers that the other 87.5% don't have sympathy for the attention!
Brian
You aren't a pessimist...you are talking reality. Sadly, it isn't welcome at this time and some think quoting probability is a treacherous thing to do. I have no doubt that you wish Marc the absolute best of luck, as do I and every else I think. I think "I told you so would be the absolute cruelest of cuts" and I have said more than one small prayer about that.
Thanks Brian
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Are the prices in line? If BK is still speaking to us/me I think he might have an idea of what is the norm. John
John,
Of course I'm still speaking to you! (& the rest of this crazy group of nutz! After all we iz family ain't we all?)
Really the GURU of DD & 2 strokes has already said that yes it is inline for genuine DD parts!
And as you all know that when it comes to buses Clifford is EF Hutton! and we should all listen! (I KNOW I DO!)
I spoke with Clifford a little bit ago. He assured me that with using genuine Detroit Diesel parts, that bill is in line. He also figures that give all that has happened and all the trouble we had in Montgomery, that they would make sure it comes out of there 100%, checking bearings, etc..
There are people out there a lot worse off than me in their buses. Hopefully I am getting my big "ouch" out of the way quickly.
Marc I can assure you that Clifford is 100% right on this too! They are not going to want to be married to a nightmare that will keep coming back to haunt them! They will want it to run like a sewing machine and you too be well pleased when it leaves so that everybody can put this behind them and live happily ever after!
And trust me & Clifford here too. Aftermarket parts may save you $ if all goes well, but...............................
Many times it doesn't and then those small stand alone shops that sold you the aftermarket parts will tell you.........."If so & so warranties their parts, we will replace them, but they won't cover the parts & our labor so the labor is on you!"
(don't ask me how some of us know this!)
And then on top of that many times the aftermarket company blames improper installation and refuses to replace the parts too so then your out all the way around.
SO as hard as it is to swallow the larger bills for GENUINE parts and the FACTORY Authorized DD (or what ever brand it is) shops to do the work, most times it pays to bite the bullet and pony up the first time around!
I can speak of this from personal experience! Last yr (well actually Dec '09) a transmission cooler went out in one of our '05 Setra's and allowed coolant and tranny fluid to mix. Well in doing that it ruined our tranny.
And I thought that Allison should cover the trans on the extended warranty we had. But as they explained it to me, had the cooler been an Allison part they would have, but since it was chosen and installed by Setra it was a "chassis" part and either on me or Setra! Well since it was @ 278,000 miles and the warranty expired @ 250,000 guess who got stuck with the bill?
OK so I bought a new cooler ($4000) from Setra, and almost bought a re-manufactured transmission from (ready for this?) WW Williams plant in Columbus, GA for $7800 and was about to do this and install it myself.
But I got a bad feeling about it and told dad let's just bite the bullet and pay Clarke Power Services (our local DD centers) the $15,000 that they had quoted me for the exact same transmission (even told me it was coming from Williams in Columbus, GA an it was a Williams re-manufactured not a "Reliabuilt" but came with a better warranty and less $)
So like I told dad by spending the extra $ on the transmission, & labor we didn't have to pay a "core" charge and wait for a refund after we sent the trans back, and PARTS & LABOR would all be WARRANTIED!
Well guess how glad I was less than 3 months later when the EXACT same thing happened and Allison, Williams, nor Setra could say "musta been something you did while installing it!"
So for the second go around Clarke, Setra & Williams had to decide who paid the $19,000 for the new cooler & trans the second time around! But it wasn't yours truly!
I am so happy to see that WW Williams has again stepped up to the plate and done as Clifford & I both said they should/would! And farther more it goes to show you exactly what I said about the second shop going out of their way to be sure that it is taken care of correct the second and everybody hopes FINAL time around!
;D BK ;D
And by the way the transmission deal had nothing to do with the other times I mentioned that WW Williams had gone above and beyond to make things right for us. It was bought from them but installed by our local DD/Allison shop!
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Like I said before....you as a small business owner are obliged to deal where "you" get the most cost effective deal; and warranty. Other's experience don't really come into play with your dealings. I am happy you are pleased with the result...you should be IMHO.
I missed the comment that the prices were normal. Understand, I don 't know enuf to call my local DD shop and compare.
John
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Brian, it is common on any diesel to replace one bad cylinder, heck I know a guy on this board that just had 1/2 of his 8v71T rebuilt 2 years ago I don't know if he has done the other side yet or not, I am sure he his shaking his head on this one lol and FWIW John I did not get my guy involved I just ask him to read Marc's post
good luck
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Marc and Clifford, I know that this is a good repair decision and I'm sitting here just praying that it works out as perfect as can be...
But being a bit of a heathen I decided years ago that engines were inhabited by hobs and sprites, and they sometimes have their own ideas about things! That's all! I'm sending nothing but good luck into the aether for Marc... ;D
(aether, as in sky/heaven in greek mythology, as opposed to ether, which is sometimes bad luck...)
Brian
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Well I as soon as possible I will be implementing "Operation Spare Engine"...
I see no other sure-fire way to hedge against this kind of thing.
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Saw the perfect spare engine for you while visiting Gene Russell last week. Only problem will be talking him out of it.
It was in a gmc truck. Had 12 cylinders,twin turbos.
Would look good in a eagle.
uncle ned
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Spare sounds great till you are several thousand miles away from it. Instead of tow then you would faced with shipping. I am not sure there is a good way to cover all bases except to have a rainy day fund that you may never need but will have if you can keep from dipping into it. LOL
John
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the good thing about having a spare is fly home load the engine in the back of the old pickup and drive it to the bus. Still 1000's cheaper than a rebuild on the road away from home.
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Great news Marc!
Now let's pray that your drive home will be a pleasure and we wouldn't be able to wipe that smile off you face! Good for you for staying calm and persistent, I'm sure it will pay off.
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Still waiting for that "she runs like a sewing machine" post. But it is nice to see things going in a good direction that several predicted would happen.
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great news buy the crew lunch!
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UPDATE....
KUDOS to W.W. Williams for doing what I think most of us would agree is the "right thing!"
She said parts have been ordered and repairs are underway! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Im very happy for you that your prayers were answered Marc, I truly am. Although it took a while, and you were alone in the desert for a time, they are doing the right thing now and for that we can all be thankful.
I would also agree that after all of this, and considering the 180 they are doing, they are not about to turn that Bus out without being reasonably sure of it, and will stand behind it for a while. Certainly long enough for you to start planning a better replacement or to overhaul the other 7/8 of what you have now. I believe youll be good to go for quite a while, time to start laying some asphalt under the nose. I would love to be with when your 10 miles down the road from this and start yelling in JOY! Elvis is back.
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Thanks everyone. I am glad this episode is almost over.
I had a real bad feeling about getting my tow bill reimbursed. I can just imagine the insurance company saying, "Well, the closest garage was just 9 miles away, so we will give you 10% of the total bill."
We hope to hear from them soon saying that repairs are complete.
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Hope we can all meet up some time soon at a rally and start telling stories...Marc will still the show!!LOL It will have to be a 2 week long rally.... :o :o
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Hey Marc, Sometimes all it takes is a phone call!................ ;)
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Thanks everyone. I am glad this episode is almost over.
I had a real bad feeling about getting my tow bill reimbursed. I can just imagine the insurance company saying, "Well, the closest garage was just 9 miles away, so we will give you 10% of the total bill."
We hope to hear from them soon saying that repairs are complete.
Well they might argue about how close the nearest shop was. But even if it was 5 miles away about $300 is the lowest a big wrecker will hook up and move a bus for. (and that's only if he's bored or broke! And under 10 miles!)
;D BK ;D
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Well got me pessimistic was the recording at Progressive. "It said to submit your invoice for reimbursement consideration send to..."
I have a feeling I was going to get stuck with a good chunk of it.
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Thanks everyone. I am glad this episode is almost over.
I had a real bad feeling about getting my tow bill reimbursed. I can just imagine the insurance company saying, "Well, the closest garage was just 9 miles away, so we will give you 10% of the total bill."
We hope to hear from them soon saying that repairs are complete.
Well they might argue about how close the nearest shop was. But even if it was 5 miles away about $300 is the lowest a big wrecker will hook up and move a bus for. (and that's only if he's bored or broke! And under 10 miles!)
;D BK ;D
Last time I was on "the big hook" it was $350 to just show up, and then it went from there. Not cheap, I have insurance now and peace of mind. Will this thing ever end, it is almost like Rambo or Rocky movies or something.
BCO
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BCO,
The quality and varied advice will keep it going a long while longer and given the mind boggling number of posts it is an experience of deep interest to most of us. I think getting a bus with a fragile engine is a nightmare for all....I know I dread it happening to me. Getting crosswise with a merchant/shop is high on the list of heartburn episodes to be avoided. I don't think it will be a dead post till Jumpsuit gets many many miles down the road...trouble free. Me, I am still holding my breath for the guy so I read all the posts and I am getting bluer by the minute. ;D
John
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BCO,
The quality and varied advice will keep it going a long while longer and given the mind boggling number of posts it is an experience of deep interest to most of us. I think getting a bus with a fragile engine is a nightmare for all....I know I dread it happening to me. Getting crosswise with a merchant/shop is high on the list of heartburn episodes to be avoided. I don't think it will be a dead post till Jumpsuit gets many many miles down the road...trouble free. Me, I am still holding my breath for the guy so I read all the posts and I am getting bluer by the minute. ;D
John
Well John, it just might be me, being cranky and all, but it seems to me it is resolved. But that is my take on it, and I will be quiet.
BCO
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Look at it this way Don, we got us a 300+ all time record breaking thread going on here, now that's something ya kin hang yer hat on lol! ;D ;D
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Me, I am still holding my breath for the guy so I read all the posts and I am getting bluer by the minute. John
I know I and some others here, made some noise that wasnt greatly appreciated by some, but what was happening was very unreasonable. They started off making his life hell, and it continued. But we must realise this was a management problem at the store level, more than a company policy problem. While its easy to assume the managers are taught to act in this manner, if they are making commision they may be acting in their own self serving interests.
Had this behavior been company policy, they wouldnt have bent at all. This shows that at least in this case, the company does care about the customer. Sad that it had to go on so long or require so much noise, but they have stepped up to the plate. I am sure they have the best guys on it now, and will stand behind it for a while. Maybe 90 days? I dont know their standard warantee, but I doubt well hear anything bad now.
But while a manager may be out looking for a new job becauseof this mess, it doesnt mean the next guy couldnt come across another jerk manager at another shop tomorrow. Service managers can often be some real rogue authoritarians that a company sometimes has to throttle.
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Look at it this way Don, we got us a 300+ all time record breaking thread going on here, now that's something ya kin hang yer hat on lol! ;D ;D
No comment. I am now "read only" and that is it.
BCO
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At some of our ages having something to hang your hat on requires little blue pills!!! :D :D So come on Don........ Are you still "read only"? :D Like I stated before. The ONLY reason this has gotten this many pages is because of the really awesome people that live here. I've been happy, unhappy, mad, bored, checking it constantly, bored again, excited and judgemental........ per page!!!! Posted sometimes, sometimes not. Changed my mind and deleted some posts. I sure haven't been bored!!! :) Eventually Marc will post the final outcome and after 4 more pages it will end up really driving someone nuts when they search "Williams"!!! ;D
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Me, I am still holding my breath for the guy so I read all the posts and I am getting bluer by the minute. John
I know I and some others here, made some noise that wasnt greatly appreciated by some, but what was happening was very unreasonable. They started off making his life hell, and it continued. But we must realise this was a management problem at the store level, more than a company policy problem. While its easy to assume the managers are taught to act in this manner, if they are making commision they may be acting in their own self serving interests.
Had this behavior been company policy, they wouldnt have bent at all. This shows that at least in this case, the company does care about the customer. Sad that it had to go on so long or require so much noise, but they have stepped up to the plate. I am sure they have the best guys on it now, and will stand behind it for a while. Maybe 90 days? I dont know their standard warantee, but I doubt well hear anything bad now.
But while a manager may be out looking for a new job becauseof this mess, it doesnt mean the next guy couldnt come across another jerk manager at another shop tomorrow. Service managers can often be some real rogue authoritarians that a company sometimes has to throttle.
I know I and some others here,
I resemble that remark ;D You and I were on track, more or less. But that is what makes horse races, right? No, it's the other way...sorry.
The thing here was that so many of our "All Star" hitters came out in favor of the company and the Atlanta shop. That should give anyone great pause and I thought and rethought my posture. While BCO has a comparatively short history here he has rapidly attracted a following and justifiably so. Add my name to the list early on. While I am disappointed in his final posture on this thread, one "aw-$#!%" does not cancel one thousand attaboys in my book. I can accept what he wants for himself on any issue and he is always welcome.
I am still with you. We wish Jump the very best.
As I noted in another post, W has a excellent rating with RV owners for work on engines and transmissions and their comments are posted and recorded. I never doubted for even the most brief of an instant that they had done some very good work if the likes of BK and Clifford (and others) were so firmly in their corner at the outset. Never a doubt!
Jump will post the outcome and details, for sure.
We may not be as alone as we feel. Art.
Thanks,
John
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"While I am disappointed in his (BCO's) final posture on this thread, one "aw-$#!%" does not cancel one thousand attaboys in my book. I can accept what he wants for himself on any issue and he is always welcome."
Thanks.
BCO
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Good ;D
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Bump! :D :D :D
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My true and final thoughts will only be given if someone needs to know and wants to PM me. I have by no means posted everything that has happened, nor will I.
All I can say right now is that I hope to have our bus back this week and that I like the trajectory of things.
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Call me please I don't do the PM thing lol
good luck
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Please post the ending when you get the bus please
Lonnie
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I think my last comment was poorly written, or at least misunderstood. Nothing new has happened, and all is well as far as I know.
I am just not interested in discussing W.W. Williams anymore. In writing what I wrote, I had more in mind someone in the (distant) future who might be searching the subject and looking for info about the company without sifting through all these posts.
I appreciate all the interest in our experience and everyone's support, but I think we have said all that needs to be said about the company as it relates to my experience.
Williams gets accolades from me for covering the tow bill, and unless something changes, that is the last thing I want to say about them.
That being said, and with all the members who seem to be interested, I will update everyone about the bus when we get back down to pick it up.
Marc
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Well I spoke with the shop foreman at Williams. He says if all goes as planned, Friday should be our day!
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Remember the whole way home just keep saying...I think I can ..I think I can....I think I can ....SEBN Here I Come!!! ;D
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Well I spoke with the shop foreman at Williams. He says if all goes as planned, Friday should be our day!
I do hope today is the day you get your bus back. The final cost has my interest. good luck
Lonnie
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Just an update for everyone... The repair was finally completed on Monday, March 21. I am planning to go get it on Friday and spend the weekend in it. Final invoice is a little less than I was quoted, so that is nice.
Marc
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Congrat's Marc, glad to hear of the positive outcome.
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I am just now reading the invoice they faxed me. Turns out I had another injector that was leaking! I knew nothing about that. Said fuel was leaking into oil from #1 cylinder. It was #3 they replaced in Montgomery.
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Doesn't surprise me at all! When I had injector problems on a DDEC 8V92 6 out of 8 were badly cracked. But the only way we found them was with dye, and a "black" light at night! Once the black light hit the dye it looked like a lightening storm with all the cracks!
;D BK ;D
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Doesn't surprise me at all! When I had injector problems on a DDEC 8V92 6 out of 8 were badly cracked. But the only way we found them was with dye, and a "black" light at night! Once the black light hit the dye it looked like a lightening storm with all the cracks!
;D BK ;D
So how long do they last without/before cracking, and how common to drop metal bits into the cylinder and ruin your engine?
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So how long do they last without/before cracking, and how common to drop metal bits into the cylinder and ruin your engine?
That's one of those thousand dollar questions.
Just like any other wear item. Sometimes they last forever and sometimes they don't last as long as it took to put 'm in!
;D BK ;D
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Guess im curious what would crack them and if it can be eleviated.
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I thought they said you had no fuel in the oil?
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I thought they said you had no fuel in the oil?
John,
Good catch, but at this time it's probably a mute point!
And maybe they were mistaken and really meant "no oil in the fuel!"
;D BK ;D
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BK,
Good catch, but at this time it's probably a mute point!
Might seem like that "beating the DEAD horse stuff". It isn't, really. Just that "lessons learned" debrief that should follow every adventure....good or bad....difficult or easy....happy or sad. A memory isn't the deep character flaw that some would have you believe because the good stuff is just as indelible and people, for sure, are never forgotten. Not that I believe that it is a universally appreciated trait, I assure you. And you point is well made and appreciated as the generosity that I know you intend.
Thank you,
John
You meant to spell moot "mute"....didn't ya? Now that is what I call supreme wit. OUTSTANDING, BK.....simply OUTSTANDING. It took me awhile but I finally caught that. Even if it was a "Freudian slip", it is still priceless. ;) :) 8)
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At the bottom of my signature...... bad decisions make great stories!! The key is to not end up with a lot of great stories!!
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Scott,
Your bi-line is really good. I love it. I like Clifford's as well. It ain't so much the destination as it is the journey.
Will Rogers is one of my personal heroes as he told a lot of people they were sub human and everybody got a good laugh including the butt of the joke. Just how in hexx did he pull that off? I ain't never figured it out...obviously i didn't need to make that last confession bit.
Thanks for your wisdom,
John
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thejumpsuitman,
I'm very new to busses, so I'm reading everything I can here about the joys and pitfalls before buying, but I will buy one. I am saddened that this chain of events unfolded the way it did for you, but I am very grateful to you for sharing the entire experience with us the way you did, it was an incredible education for me.
I read the entire thread last night and have been thinking about it all morning, and it occurred to me that as expensive as the repairs were, it seems to me (forum experts correct me if I'm wrong, please) that someone in an S&S gasoline powered RV would have a similar bill if a piston came apart.
If a GM 454 (or a Ford 460 or a Dodge 440) were to have a piston come apart, it would likely damage the engine block and head severely enough that the motor would have to be replaced. Unless the S&S is a diesel pusher (and for the sake of the argument it isn't) the engine would normally be removed through the cabin given the design of most class A and C motorhomes.
I can't imagine that the combined cost of the motor and installation would be much lower than what you paid. If the owner opted for a factory crate replacement engine, I suspect that the repair bill would actually be higher.
I'm asking this primarily because my wife and I are gearing up to do some full-timing and are new to RVs across the board. I made the above assumption based on having looked at several S&S RVs that we've been interested in and working on a couple back when I was an OTR truck mechanic.
I hope that your bus is running like a top, and continues to hum happily down the road for you for years to come!
Les
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I read the entire thread last night and have been thinking about it all morning, and it occurred to me that as expensive as the repairs were, it seems to me (forum experts correct me if I'm wrong, please) that someone in an S&S gasoline powered RV would have a similar bill if a piston came apart.
It would be two or three times as much on a 454 in a class A, and would likely exceed $20K on a diesel pusher, in both cases the engines come out from underneath or out the back, but they are not designed or built to easily come apart, and the labor to R&R one could easily exceed 80 hours. So yeah, Bus is cheaper.
Nothing against the company in saying this, as they have come back around, but I couldnt have sat around 9 days waiting for them to look at it, and then been down for a month. If this happened on a vacation, the vacation would be over. Having watched all this, and if I were faced with a simular issue tomorrow, I would jerry rig the engine any way possible within reason and push on down the road taking my chances.
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Here, Here.....or.....there....there. :P
John
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Good observation Les..... In any of those cases they would more than likely replaced or rebuilt the entire engine as what would have been my choice in this instance.
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I have to say that this is precisely why I want a bus instead of a S&S rv.
...well, one of the reasons ;D
ok - maybe one of the 'reasonable' reasons.... :P
not like there's any appeal to the styling of a 4104, or any coolness to polished aluminum, or anything like that. certainly no reasons like that... :o
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Got the bus back. Runs good. But we are 3 hours from home and have no 12v charge from the alt. Have stopped at a rest area and started the generator with a boost. Hope it charges the batteries enough for 3 hours of headlights.
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good luck, sir! I hope you find a simple reason when you have a moment to check it!
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Jimminy Cricket Elvis, it's not just a bus, it's an adventure ;)
Almost home, hang in there.
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Can you run the gen set to charge the batts. while on the road?...Cable
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Its good that you have the bus. Now with a little luck you can make it home.
Lonnie
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Gary has let us pull in for the night. Thank God for him! He is going to help me take it to the alternator repair place tomorrow morning before he leaves fopr Myrtle Beach.
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Jumpsuit - Maybe the no-charge is due to a minor assembly oversight.
If so, maybe a careful examination will uncover the culprit.
Wire off, connector unplugged?
Maybe an Eagle hand has a more specific suggestion of what to look for.
Ted
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Would you guys believe when the dash was redone in that Eagle the PO did not install a volt/amp gauge in the dash,I told Marc it probably was something simple maybe a wire,belts slipping or setting so long the charging relay stuck but he is getting closer to home lol
good luck
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Just another brick in the wall.....
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Come on baby, hold together!
(http://massassi.hobby-site.com/massassi/pictures/episode_4/img/space11.jpg)
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We'll make it... at some point. LOL. We are about to remove the alternator and have it checked. Hopefully they have another one in stock. If not, we will just leave the bus here until Gary comes back from Myrtle Beach. No hurry at this point. We have certainly learned to be patient.
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Marc, if you have the 300 amp alternator that was factory you don't won't to buy that one my friend lol
good luck
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Curious, why not have Williams look at it? They surely had to R&R it to pull the head(s). If it wasnt charging when it left they should have told you. Does it have a charging light, any charge indicator?
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You don't remove the alternator on 05 Eagle to remove the head they set on drivers side behind the tail light door they stay there with even a engine removal and no wires to disconnect either
good luck
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Curious, why not have Williams look at it? They surely had to R&R it to pull the head(s). If it wasnt charging when it left they should have told you. Does it have a charging light, any charge indicator?
There is no alternator gage. I am installing one. I didn't know it wasn't charging myself for almost two hours. Clifford seems to think the isolator is the problem.
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Marc, Clifford is the real King! ;) ;D
Thank ya very much ;)
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Yes, Clifford was right.... again :D Kudos to Cory as well for recognizing the non-ignition wire alternator.
So here we are... 47 days after the purchase, (41 of which were in the shop), and $4,100 spent, we are home with the bus! All is well except for needing a new battery isolator, 20 lug nut covers that were never reinstalled after the tow, and a chrome tailpipe extension we lost on the way.... (By the way, the lug nut covers are the 1-1/2 inch type in case anybody needs to buy some).
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Marc, don't buy a isolator just use solenoids a lot cheaper no way would I have a isolator in my charging system loop after the starting batteries maybe lol
good luck
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Yes, Clifford was right.... again :D Kudos to Cory as well for recognizing the non-ignition wire alternator.
So here we are... 47 days after the purchase, (41 of which were in the shop), and $4,100 spent, we are home with the bus! All is well except for needing a new battery isolator and 20 lug nut covers that were never reinstalled after the tow.... (By the way, they are the 1-1/2 inch type in case anybody needs to buy some).
Marc.. Glad you finally got the Beauty home.. Once you get her all settled in, give me a call because I'd love for you to give me a tour of her.
Jimmy
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Hey not bad $4100 for 41 days in the shop! I wish I could get my buses in & out of a shop for just $100 a day! (jest kidding)
;D BK ;D
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Marc.. Glad you finally got the Beauty home.. Once you get her all settled in, give me a call because I'd love for you to give me a tour of her.
Jimmy
Will do Jimmy. Would love to finally meet you.
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Hey not bad $4100 for 41 days in the shop! I wish I could get my buses in & out of a shop for just $100 a day! (jest kidding)
;D BK ;D
Yeah, I think I would take that deal... $100 for a day's work at a diesel shop... Kind of gets rough after 40 days though. :o :o :o
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Marc, don't buy a isolator just use solenoids a lot cheaper no way would I have a isolator in my charging system loop after the starting batteries maybe lol
good luck
Cheaper is better, that's for sure... Why no isolator? Not needed?
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Just found out why it takes so long to get from Texas to Charlotte NC. It was the passenger's fault.
uncle ned
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Uh oh.... Sounds like someone's telling tales.
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Marc, don't buy a isolator just use solenoids a lot cheaper no way would I have a isolator in my charging system loop after the starting batteries maybe lol
good luck
Cheaper is better, that's for sure... Why no isolator? Not needed?
Any "solid state" device has a voltage drop. If you install a isolator in a system to separate the bats you must, by doing so, put a silicon union in series with the bat. That means that while the alternator is putting out a full 13.5 volts to maintain your bats charge your bat is actually seeing only 13...... or 13.5 minus .5. The real numbers are a hundredth of a volt different but you get the idea.
To make this system work you need to relocate the "charge voltage sense line" from the alt + term way out to the "bat plus terminal". That way the alt will jack up its charge voltage till it sees the voltage at the bat rise to the level God intended.
NOW, having said all that there are still a couple flys in the ointment. !) The isolator is a electrical device and as we know they are not all the same. Basically, a isolator is just a couple big diodes hooked together. Diodes have a peculiar current rating and as that current rating goes up the cost of the isolator goes up much faster. Costs are always turbocharged like that. Lets see now, you have an alternator that cranks out 300 amps and it will put that current into the bat maybe never but a couple hundred is a for sure if you have a 50 and the bats are dead. Check the price on the isolator that you need....current wise. Those top-o-the-line solenoids rated for continuous duty are 15 or 20 bucks and that is your alternative. That system requires that a solenoid be placed across the +12 start bat bank to the +12 house bat bank. The second is .....? Need I say more?
Regardless of what you decide you should run that wire from the bat + to the regulator, internal t the alt or external, Measure with a voltmeter from the regulator to the 12+ and see the voltage that you are missing. Now try to do that test with the bat drawing 200 amps of charge. Get it? Run the wire.
OR.... Call Ace and see if all this can be done using pneumatic circuit for the air horn. ????? Couldn't resist, Ace ;D Still luv ya. :P (WHOA Nellie! Easy girl.)
John
Oh by the way. I have a 75 amp Cole Hersy isolator for sale CHEAP. Give a holler. 8)
John
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Well "Big Red" has finally settled into her assigned parking space. I had to take down a tree and trim several others to make way for her. I have two driveways, and the neighbors on the side where she was temporarily parked are rejoicing now that her profile no longer eclipses the sun from their property. ;D.
Boy, backing into the drive will take some practice! On the third try I finally got the correct angle to cut the turn. Black&White backup camera doesn't help much when all you see are trees and bushes. Glad nobody was watching while I worked it out. LOL... Well, my wife was watching, but we don't get embarrassed around each other. She sure didn't want to be the one backing her up!!!! Now we are on the road to pick up a new leather sleeper sofa to replace the house style day bed the PO had in there. The fun begins!
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No next is removing the front windshield to get the new sofa in the bus ??? ??? ???..LOL
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No... No!!!! Don't even say it!!!! :o LOL... I wondered what I would do if it wouldn't go in the door. I installed a sleeper sofa in a 26' RV once, and the armrests came off which allowed me to make it through the door. I'm hoping for the same success with this.
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Well "Big Red" has finally settled into her assigned parking space. I had to take down a tree and trim several others to make way for her. I have two driveways, and the neighbors on the side where she was temporarily parked are rejoicing now that her profile no longer eclipses the sun from their property. ;D.
Boy, backing into the drive will take some practice! On the third try I finally got the correct angle to cut the turn. Black&White backup camera doesn't help much when all you see are trees and bushes. Glad nobody was watching while I worked it out. LOL... Well, my wife was watching, but we don't get embarrassed around each other. She sure didn't want to be the one backing her up!!!! Now we are on the road to pick up a new leather sleeper sofa to replace the house style day bed the PO had in there. The fun begins!
You thought nobody was watching...
bus backing up on small gravel road (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG0foydvLgM#)
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Hmmmm. . .
Suppose the reason that bus couldn't make the turn was because it's a VanHool?
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Hmmmm. . .
Suppose the reason that bus couldn't make the turn was because it's a VanHool?
I'm sure thats it. ::)
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Well that guy makes me feel better... LOL.
What's tricky about my driveway is that there is a ditch on either side. One much worse than the other, but both will bottom out the bus.
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Before you remove the windshield, see if the couch will come apart. Nearly everything in ours had to come apart to come inside. Still easier and safer than windshield removal...Cable
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OOps.... Mean to start new thread...