BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: bobofthenorth on July 02, 2012, 02:53:03 PM
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I've been reluctant to start this thread but I guess most of the regulars here have long since figured out that I'm an idiot. Any newbies reading this thread will pretty soon arrive at the same conclusion. As I have alluded to in other threads, the frenchy-bus had become pretty tired looking. In four or five places cracks were starting to open up in the fibreglass board, particularly where the caps attach plus I had one bad one over the drivers on the road side. My original intent was to patch the cracks, get a close paint match and then slobber some new clear over everything to make it look less worse than it did. I have never had any illusions that I was going to end up with a show stopper paint job. The last straw came this spring when I was buying fuel at the Husky on the east side of Regina and some steering wheel holder in the next lane said something to the effect of "nice bus but she's sure starting to show her age isn't she?"
I phoned around the bodyshops in Saskatoon and everyone said I needed to talk to Walker's Auto Body so I took the outside cover for the fridge to them for paint matching. I opened the conversation by telling "Dan" that I didn't have an effing clue what I was doing but that I was going to do it anyway. He was very helpful and by the end of the day I had a couple of quart of supposedly matched paint. Its not cheap. Then I stopped at Peavey Mart, Princess Auto and Ukrainian Tire to pick up a 1.6 HP 20 gallon compressor along with some various sanding machines, water eliminators, regulators, die grinders, etc, etc.
(http://www.rjevans.org/BusPainting/RearCapCrackRepair.JPG)
The picture above is the curbside rear cap with patch in progress.
I started out on the @$# end fixing the cracks on both sides by grinding them back and layering fibreglass cloth over the patch to build out to the original level. That part I'm pretty comfortable with. I use West System and I've done so for years so I pretty well know what it will do and I've got a good stock of fillers, cloth and the various hardeners. When I got the back end ready for paint I masked and tried shooting to blend into the existing grey/silver of the coach. It was close but no cigar. So it was decision time and I decided that God hates a coward so as I have done all too many times in my life I went for it. Several years ago I told a customer that God hates a coward and he shot back "Yep but he hasn't got much time for fools either." Let me tell you it was damn hard to start sanding the good areas. Those shiny ribbons on the frenchy-bus took a lot of sanding. I was buying 75 packs of assorted grit at Canadian Tire and I think I went through 6 or maybe 8 of them. At the same time we were working out what the new colour scheme would be. There wasn't a hope in hell that we could duplicate the airbrushed ribbons and I didn't want to do something with straight lines. With all due respect to those of you who have gone that way, it shows. Nothing screams "I DID THIS MYSELF" more than straight lines on a bus paint job.
Today I started shooting red paint and very quickly learned that I need a lot more paint. So far I've got about $3000 all in on this project. That's paint, supplies, compressor, air tools - everything. By the time I get done that total will be $4000 and change. I thought 1 quart of red would be adequate - in fact it will likely take 3 and I will buy 4 just to be sure.
(http://www.rjevans.org/BusPainting/PaintCan.JPG)
That's the paint I'm using, in case anybody cares. Its a base/clearcoat 2 part urethane system from Sherwin Williams.
(http://www.rjevans.org/BusPainting/Curbside.JPG)
That's the start of the red. As you can see it isn't covering the old stripes yet. I'm really paranoid about runs so likely I'm not laying down as heavy coats as I could get away with but all I've got is time. The two pieces of tape amidships are my test strips to see what I can get away with as far as taping for additional colours. So far what I've learned is that they are leaving a small amount of adhesive residue which I think will wipe away with my final wipe but I don't want to try that until the paint has an overnight cure. The two remaining pieces of tape were applied 2 hours after shooting and will stay on overnight to make sure that they don't lift the base when I peel them back.
(http://www.rjevans.org/BusPainting/AssEnd.JPG)
Another shot from the back this time.
So be gentle with your comments. The best advice anybody could give me is that I'm an idiot who should have hired an expert. That's not gonna happen. I've known a lot of painters over the years and - nice guys that they are all of them - they're no smarter than me. I also watched some Mexicans painting coaches at Puerto Penasco the year that Mel & Billie enticed us down there. They were painting coaches on the sandy, dusty parking lot and they were turning out just fine. My biggest challenge is getting a weather break in the non-stop pissing rain that western Canada has had dumped on it for the last month but so far the forecast for this week is good. Unfortunately I'll lose tomorrow because I have to make a supply run for paint.
I've got an old geek who used to own a bodyshop in town who's keeping an eye on me. He says my biggest challenge will be that bugs will migrate from miles around to die in my paint but that hasn't been a problem so far. I think the clear will stay tacky longer than the base so it may be more of an issue once I start shooting clear. The base dries so fast the bug would have to be riding on the spray gun to get there in time to stick.
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I knew you liked the awning Bob but wouldn't it be easier to change the fabric color lol it will turn out good I have faith in you and George
good luck
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I was pretty proud of myself for figuring out how to tie it up over the roof like that. Would never have happened without your good instruction.
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When you're all done practicing, Papabus could use a facelift. Looking good so far!
Mark
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That's what I keep telling the neighbour Mark - the farther away you get the better it looks. From where you are it must look real good - what are you ~ 150 miles or so?
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LOL. Yep, likely 150-200 miles as the crow flies.
But, unless you can also work magic with your digital cam, even the photos are looking good!
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So...is the red you've applied today in the shape it is because it's the beginning of a new 'big swirly pattern' type paint scheme? Personally I'd have primered the whole bus first to get a uniform base, then paint the whole thing with a top coat in whatever single colour is the 'background' colour of the new paint scheme. And only then start on the individual colours of the pattern such as this red.
But I've probably completely misunderstood what you've got planned, and am not helping at all.
Jeremy
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Yes, the red is the start of some curved shapes. And I was advised that there was no need to prime since the entire bus had been previously painted and since I was painting over plastic. There might have been some advantage in terms of covering the previous paint scheme but at a considerable increase in material cost. Based on the layers of paint I uncovered during sanding none of the previous colours were initiated with a total re-prime.
My goal when I was sanding was to get to a solid base. In a few locations I encountered flaking layers but those areas were relatively small and in each case I chased the flaking until I couldn't find any more of it. As I have made abundantly clear in previous posts and earlier in this post, I have no illusions that I am likely to end up with a showroom paint job. My goals were first to repair the cracks in our 20+ year old conversion structure and second to have something that looks acceptable at 60 MPH.
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Bob when you are finished a good round of 3M supercut compound and sponge wheel on a buffer who knows you may decide to do it for money it will look so good even the best use the 3M
good luck
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We had the top of our bus painted where the sun had burned through the purplish color when we were down in Mexico a couple of trips ago. Well just when you think a paint problem is solved it shows up again. The sun scorched it again so I guess we have to go white on the top if we want continue living in the desert. If you get good at this Bob you can do the white for us.
Melbo
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Good on you Bob, everyone needs a hobby and you can go on the road with sprayer in hand. I'm sure you will get some armchair experts with their Googled advise on this one. The buffer will make the runs and blemishes go away. Are you close to the #1, Dorothy and I are traveling to Thunder Bay, leaving here August 8th.
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Perfect opportunity for a bus rally at our place in August! Bob can show off the paint job, I can show my 'shift-less' driving technique, and Fraser can awe us again with his culinary skills!
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Mel you live in Albuquerque go by Jims and let him do his thing with the line a bed materail you cannot be the only one there without it on the top of your bus lol
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Don't hold your breath on that paint job Mel. And Fraser we're further off #1 than you likely want to go. Even if you swing north at Balgonie it would still add 60 or 80 miles to your trip. But Mark may be onto something. He's not that far away for us. Remind us as the time gets closer.
And thanks Clifford - sounds like a good excuse to buy another tool. Gotta love any project that increases your tool count and this one's been pretty good on that front already.
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Bob, yer putting swirls and curly cues on Frenchy? Now you'll certainly get rousted crossing the borders, but enough on immigration ;D Yer doin a splendid job, one I'm sure we'll all be proud of ;D Lol! While some are laying it down, I'm bustin hump to get mine off ::) ;D
Keep at it, you'll do fine ;)
V.
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If you are going basecoat/clearcoat you are gonna have to prime. Basecoats are relatively transparent and do not cover existing muticolored paint jobs nor will they bond well straight over bare metal. Without going in to excrutiating detail I will give you a few suggestions:
1. Sand
2. Mask
3. Prime
4. Base
5. Clear
I think with out priming you are setting up for disaster. I painted my bus outdoors and epoxed primed over all repairs and previous paint jobs etc. The epoxy primer covers and sticks to everything and I have had no lifting or any other issue yet.
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As well as potential reaction / adhesion problems, it's also much cheaper to use primer. Primer itself is relatively cheap (compared to top coat), and will also greatly reduce the amount of topcoat you need to apply to get coverage.
But the advise you had from your paint supplier is probably better and more valuable than any reply here from me or anyone else.
Jeremy
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As well as potential reaction / adhesion problems, it's also much cheaper to use primer. Primer itself is relatively cheap (compared to top coat), and will also greatly reduce the amount of topcoat you need to apply to get coverage.
But the advise you had from your paint supplier is probably better and more valuable than any reply here from me or anyone else.
Jeremy
Well - they may have a vested interest in selling me some more (expensive) paint but they have to make a living too. And no metal, bare or otherwise, to be painted except for the black window frames and they're getting Tremclad.
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Perhaps the term 'primer' implies a treatment given to bare metal, and 'undercoat' would be a better name for it when it's applied on top of existing paint or fibreglass (I assume you meant fibreglass when you said 'plastic' before incidentally - just to confuse things, painting plastic requires it's own set of specialist primers).
Some 'between paint' type primers are referred to as 'sealers' because they are specifically used for preventing reaction problems between the old and new paint. This isn't often a problem with base/clearcoat systems because they are pretty innocuous things, but two-pack paints for instance can be a very chemically intolerant. I've had reactions so bad that they've melted the fibreglass gelcoat - any thoughts of trying to save money by skimping on the primer stage seem a bit silly once you've experienced that kind of painting nightmare.
Jeremy
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Prevost converters order the shell painted or primed and then do the graphics or paint
I watched Country Coach paint the graphics on the painted shell for years then clear coat so who knows
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Red is a very transparent (and expensive) color. Best to primer to fill and smooth your bodywork. Next sealer to provide a uniform color base. Then base coat with final color. Add stripes, flames, etc. and clear everything.
Since you have already painted color and have some bleed through from the existing stripes. This new paint will act as a sealer for the next color coat. So, wet sand the red with 400 and recoat for your final finish.
I'm not sure why you were taping 2 hours after your sprayed. Understand you were doing a test, but the paint should at least dry overnight before taping to presumably to add stripes.
If the paint is so dry and hard after 2 hours, then I'm thinking you are painting when it is too hot and using a fast reducer, and possibly too much hardener. This will result is dry spray areas that do not blend together with each overlapping spray pass. Also increases the orange peel if the paint is not allow to flow. They make different speed of reducers to better match your temperature. Slow for hot days, and faster for the cool ones.
Each coat should be a full wet coat. Not heavy or too much that it will run, but enough material. Have your local body shop buddy show you. Paint is too expensive to learn by doing, and doing, ;) !
Good luck and have fun.
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yes.. it should be completely primered first. depending on the color or colors used, ya might want to get the primer tinted the color of your base coats, but if its just red then red primer me guesses. when i want to do a good paint job, i get the primer tinted and use the good paint at the industrial finishes place.. and red is really high now.
however, i didnt want to spend over 2k for supplies for my bus, so just used grey primer behind the silver and blue...
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Bit more on primers. There are two types of primers.
Primer Surfacer - This is thicker and is designed to fill small surface irregularities and has to be sanded. For example, to fill sanding scratches in bondo. The epoxy two part primer has great filling ability and it sands easily.
Primer Sealer - This is used after your body work is finished. It is very thin and sprays like paint. So watch for runs. This can be tinted and provides a uniform color for the base paint coat.
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And to add:
Etch Primer - Has acid in it which slightly eats into the surface being painted, to improve adhesion. Regarded as essential on aluminum and galvanized steel, and desirable as a 'first coat' on anything. The primer I use for everything (simply because I like it) is by Upoxy and is a 2-pack high-build etch primer, so 'ticks all the boxes'. It's good stuff. My local supplier stopped selling it at one point because the price went up and (he told me later) practically had a riot on his hands when all his regular customers found out.
I don't know whether the acid used in etch primer is Phosphoric acid, but if it is I assume etch primer must have some anti-rust properties as well. Phosphoric acid is the active ingredient in all those proprietary anti-rust paints (Hammerite, Rustoleum, POR-15 etc). Bodyshops used to have bottles of concentrated Phosphoric acid to hand, and before painting would wipe bare metal down with a rag soaked in the stuff. I believe they aren't allowed to do it any more because of health and safety rules.
Jeremy
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Bob, this is just to slow. You are lucky to have me here to watch out for you.
Now set up 2-4X6 posts at 10 ft apart, make sure you have an 42 foot on each side of the posts. Now nail a 2x4 across the top. Hook up a spray gun on each side and 2 at the top. Connect all hoses together and then a 2 inch air line back to the compressor. Now have someone pull the triggers that could be hooked together also with cables and return springs. They pull the triggers and you drive the bus through at an even speed about 40MPH. Then back up and put someone on a graphics-trampoline on each side and give them a spray-gun with another color. Set them to jumpin and drive through again. Instant Design.awesome!!!... Also you might want to tape up windows etc. too. That part is your choice?... Done
Your Welcome, don't we think alike.
Dave5Cs ;D 8) ::)
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Bob now I know what you were saying lol
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Bob, this is just to slow. You are lucky to have me here to watch out for you.
............. etc.
I can go one better than that Dave. You guys don't have Red Green down there but some of you have likely seen him on PBS. He's my hero - master of duct tape and innovator extraordinaire. His conversion of a Cadillac into an excavator is one of my all time favorites. One time he built a fence painter & I don't know why I didn't think of it before I started because it would have worked for what I'm doing.
The fence painting machine started life as a wringer washer. The pump got repurposed to become a paint pump and he mounted some spray nozzles on the outside of the tub (with duct tape) at the appropriate heights to spray the boards on his fence. Then he ran a rope from one end of the fence, through the wringer and tied it to the other end of the fence. Dump the paint in the tub, turn it on, crank down the wringer and stand back. Like Red says "if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy"
The wind is blowing pretty good today but on the plus side not too many bugs can fly into that kind of headwind so I put another coat of red on. I must be getting better at laying on a thick coat because today I got some sags and runs. Gotta do some books this afternoon and then I'll sand the runs out tonight. I'm just about ready for the next colour.
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Bob, like others have mentioned you typically need to prime your repaired areas. This is done to prevent outgasing. You need to make sure that you have enough cure time with fiberglass. A sandable primer is strongly recommended.
For the other areas of the bus where you have just sanded the original paint it is strongly recommended to use a sealer. You can call it a primer sealer. The product that I use is manufactured by PPG DP series.. Like DP 40, DP 50. It is a two part epoxy sealer. It is NOT sandable. It is designed to seal everything under the paint and allow great adhesion of your new paint to the previous paint and repaired surfaces.
Without doing this you risk adhesion problems.
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Bob, if the paint blows off you're driving to fast, slow down and paint it again. Hope to see you at the Brandon get together, we should check with Donna on it...
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You're right Clifford - there's a reason I waited to 'fess up about what I was doing. On the other hand, one of the neat things about this hobby of ours is how people will just phone you out of the blue. I haven't experienced that on the boating side but it definitely happens in the bus world. Yesterday I had a great visit with Van. I'm not following all his advice (mainly because I'm lazy) but I think he has forgotten more about painting than I will ever know.
Yesterday I got the main colour on the curb side as well as the clear. Today is a slow day - I masked for my gray stripe which is relatively small as well as my graphic on the rear which while somewhat intricate is a small surface as well. Now I have to wait for all that to harden and then tomorrow will be another big day. Fortunately Marilyn was in the big city so I could order additional paint and clear. I don't know what the regs are in the US but up here its impossible to ship paint on a major courier. I thought for sure it could go on the bus because they used to take anything and everything, including live chickens but it was going to be a 7 hour round trip to p/u more paint if it hadn't worked out that Marilyn was already in the city.
If anybody is interested I have an update here (http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.ca/2012/07/painting-progress.html)
For those of you that insisted - contrary to the advice I have received from a well respected body supply shop - that I absolutely needed to prime ......... you may be right ............ the paint may all fall off within weeks or even days ......... its just too soon to tell right now. I disagree that I needed to prime to cover the previous graphics - I thought that initially but that was pretty well all beginner technique. The red is definitely harder to cover with but by no means impossible. What I did run into that a primer may very well have helped with was that the texture of the graphics showed through in some spots. Particularly on the road side for some reason I had to do a lot of additional sanding after I thought I had already done a lot of sanding to get rid of the imprint of the underlying graphics.
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Bob I had a car that I used to take out to the race track and everyone wanted to tell me how to build it ,paint it , drive it. Well the guy who tried the most to tell me how to do it was at the track 1 day and I had to race him. I won and I went home tape up the back of the car and had a friend come over that did really nice graphics and paint on "MY WAY". When my buddy know it all came over I told him I had something to show him that he could read the next time he was following me down the race track, LOL
Good Luck with your paint job, it will probably be great and if it isn't nobody died.
Dave5Cs ;D 8)
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you dont absolutely have to prime. its just better cause the paint is all one color that way. as long as the surface has adhesion, paint will not come off.. thats what scotchbrite and cheap enamel is for the trailers or cars for resale.
its just better if ya follow all the steps. i dont except on the good cars.
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.......... and if it isn't nobody died.
Dave5Cs ;D 8)
Yet.
Clearly you haven't watched any Red Green episodes.
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Oh! don't forget to mix thoroughly! ;D ;D
Red Green Handyman Tip - Paint Mixing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVvFQop_Zc4#)
Boy talk about graphics in a can, hmmm! ;)
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I did it mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyyyyy Wayyyyyyyy, LOL ::) ;D :D
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Oh! don't forget to mix thoroughly! ;D ;D
Boy talk about graphics in a can, hmmm! ;)
See? What did I tell you? The man knows his paint.
If you think about it a bit it makes more sense to use a vehicle with smaller wheels - higher RPM for the same speed or you can drive slower and still get a good mix. And if you put the paint can slightly off centre you would get a more vigorous agitation. Not to mention more spectacular graphics if the lid comes off.
K.Y.S.O.T.I.
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Bob, hey have fun!!! We painted our bus and it turned out great!!!!
Sent from iPhone via Tapatalk
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Update posted here: Current paint situation (http://www.travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.ca/2012/07/more-of-same.html)
Today I started putting the clearance lights back on and discovered that some of the cheapo Chinese LED lights I bought at Princess Auto a few years ago no longer light all their LEDs. Imagine that!
The clock is ticking now - there's about 20 couples from my grad class of 1979 that have got together the 3rd weekend in July every year since we graduated. Not all of us make it back every year but a lot of us show up each year. We missed last year but we'll be there this year as long as I get the paint done and the noisemaker is willing to start after sitting this long.
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Gosh darn it all Bob, it's startin' to look good, and see... it's not even moving ;) so much for the 65mph paint job ;D Don't worry bout changes your an artist' and they do it all the time :)
Keep up the good work! 8)
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One last kick at this, update posted here (http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.ca/2012/07/closing-in-on-end.html).
Lessons learned:
- the advice I got here to prime everything first was well founded. I think I already stated that it would have concealed the texture of the underlying graphics. I don't believe priming was necessary to hide the underlying paint.
- any fool can do this (as long as the paint doesn't fall off Friday as soon as I get up to 60 MPH). I don't have any fancy tools - everything I used came from Peavey Mart, Walmart, Canadian Tire or Princess Auto. I certainly don't have any previous experience or skills. I did have some previous experience with West System and in many ways I think that was likely more important than painting skills - if the fibreglass repairs don't hold then the whole exercise was for naught.
- it takes way longer than you think. WAY longer. Sanding sanding sanding. I bought a lot of sandpaper - I've kind of lost track and I've got a lot left over but I probably bought 800 or 1000 discs. Velcro backed paper is wonderful.
- control the exhaust from your airsander. I couldn't figure out where the oil spots were coming from and when I did figure it out I immediately put an exhaust hose on my sander and had no more problems
- cleanup wasn't nearly the chore that I expected but I was religious about it. Everything cleaned completely after every shot. The clearcoat is a genuine PITA to clean once it starts to cure and on a hot day it cures way faster than you might think. I lost about a quart of clear when I mixed a whole gallon and the last of it went off. In theory I had 8 hour pot life but that batch went off in under an hour. I've had that experience with West System but the clear took me by surprise.
- bugs weren't near the problem that I expected. I did the whole job outdoors and I've got a few buggers embedded in the clear but very few and they'll sand and polish out easily. The basecoat cures so quickly that bugs just weren't an issue and I seemed to always be painting in a breeze so that helped keep them away too.
Skip asked me if I'd do it over knowing what I know now and the answer is unequivocally yes. I'd call Manpower and rent some lowlife to help with the sanding but otherwise I wouldn't change a whole lot from how I did it this time. I haven't done books for a long time but I think I'm into this for about $5000 including the tools. Figure $1500 for the tools and the balance for paint, epoxy and sandpaper. That will give me 4-6 coats of clear on everything. If my labour had any value it would be a pretty expensive job but since I work for nothing I think I got a paint job that will outlive me for not too much money.
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I like it Bob looks good any boo/boo the 3M fast cut will take care of it 50 bucks a qt and worth every dime of it
good luck
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See I told ya it would look good. You never believe me. Whats the X on the front?
Dave5Cs ;D
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Bob,
I am impressed. Would you like to come down and redo our Star Junk paint job? They were supposed to be pros, and your bus came out looking WAY better then our fit and finish on our bus. Great job.
John
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Clifford: I've got some bottles of 3M polish sitting on the shelf waiting for me to get to them. They'll have to wait until we get back from the reunion & until I get the balance of the clearcoat applied.
Dave: There's red pinstriping outside the headlights & I needed somewhere for it to go so it ended up crossing in the middle. It just sort of happened. I still think Red's painting machine would have been the way to go.
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Looks like a nice job Bob Can't wait to I see it driving thru town hopefully at 50 /50 :)
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Bob, it looks real fine indeed. I should be at Marks's somewhere around the 12th to the 15th of August. Hopefully we can get together. Fraser
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i know i'm amazed at the beauty of the job! Although in the prices and quantities of tools and supplies, i don't see any artistic enhancement liquids listed? (the tax boys frown if you just write down "Scotch".)
Way to go Bob ;D