BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Chopper Scott on February 18, 2011, 07:09:58 PM
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Just a question out of curiosity. I see a lot of custom coaches for sale that all list the motor as a Series 60 Detroit. Has that became the standard as far as bus power? I heard someone tell me that the only motor available in a KW truck was the DD 60 and also that Cat had quit it's over the road program. I see a few supplier's trucks in the shop that have Mercedes emblems on them. Like I said.... Just curious.
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I'd say the S60, in one form of displacement or another, was pretty much the standard from the mid 90's to the mid of last decade. (can't believe we're already onto the 2nd decade of the 1st century of the 3rd millenium!)
But recently, the Cummins ISM is also commanding a small portion of the market, as is the Volve D13 in Prevosts. The new baby ISX, and Detroit DD13, may become the near future of bus engines.
In trucks, you can only get a Detroit in a Freightliner, as parent company Daimler won't sell to other companies.
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OK. It was the Frieghtliner instead of the KW's. I get confused easily. No more Cats however in the trucks. I see some of their ag tractors in my line of work and it seems they are not to popular. In fact I even saw a few of the Cat combines. Also turned out to be a bust. Maybe the economy or the overseas market has changed Cat's outlook. Most of the s&s rv's have Cummins while bus types show Detroits for some reason. Like I said.... Just curious..
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Cat is introducing a on highway truck next year
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The Series 60 came out in the late 80's as a 11.1 liter and 12.7 liter 6 cylinder. Later the 11.1 liter was dropped and the 14.0 liter came out. From 2007 to 2009, only the 14 liter was available. The 11.1 liter, 12.7 liter, and the early 14.0 liters all looked the same from the outside and all had the same dimensions. The 2007-2009 14 liter had a thinner bull gear on the front of the engine. Also produced was the 4 cylinder 8.5 liter that was used in many transit buses, and in Freightliner FL106's. Detroit took the 12.7 liter and removed the middle two cylinders, added two balance shafts under the crankshaft, but otherwise was very similar to the 6 cylinder. 2009 was the last year Series 60's were installed in trucks.
Now we have the 2010 certified (with Urea, or Diesel Exhaust Fluid [DEF]) in the 12.8 liter DD13, 14.8 liter DD15, and 15.6 liter DD16. From 350hp at 1250 torque to 470hp at 1650 torque for the DD13; 455hp at 1550 torque to 560hp at 1850 torque for the DD15 and 475hp at 1750 torque to 600hp at 2050 torque for the DD16. The DD engines are available in Freightliner, Western Star Trucks, and Setra buses. Also available is the Cummins 15 liter ISX.
Freightliner and Western Star along with Setra are the only Heavy Duty vehicles with all American made and designed engines.
Pete and Kenworth have both the 15 liter and 11.9 liter ISX Cummins available (no more ISM) along with their DAF based Paccar engine.
Volvo has their D11, D13, D16 liter and Cummins ISX 15 liter available. Mack only uses the Volvo based engines.
International only uses their 11 liter Maxxforce engine and 12.4 liter Maxxforce 13 engines based on the MAN engine.
As to the marriage between Caterpillar and International-the International based Caterpillar truck will only be introduced in foreign countries. The Maxxforce 15 based on the C15 is not certified for US use. Good Luck, TomC
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So you can get a DD in a Setra. What are the other companies using and do they have access to the DD's?
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So you can get a DD in a Setra. What are the other companies using and do they have access to the DD's?
If you're talking about buses, then you can get a S60 in all of MCI and Prevost coaches. The "Daimler only" restriction applies to trucks only, as far as I know.
The 14L S60 is probably better suited to coaches than trucks, I find it relatively gutless, hp for hp, on a truck. The 515hp version I drove got walked all over the place by a 500hp ISX in the mountains (which is just about anywhere here in BC).
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All of MCI's coaches on the MCI website list the Cummins ISM as standard with the 14L Series 60 as optional. I don't understand how they could sell a bus with a Series 60 engine since the Series 60 is obsolete? Prevost's website lists their buses as standard with a 2007 Series 60 and optional 2007 Volvo engine.
I thought Detroit was originally not going to sell engines to non-Diamler companies and that they changed their minds for motorcoaches? I'm a little surprised since Diamler owns Setra. Prevost was going to switch to Vovo engines since they couldn't get Detroit anymore.
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Prevost don't offer a DD only Cummins or the gutlless Volvo 435 hp D13 in a 45 ft bus standard,MCI has a Cummins std it is the new DD15 the Germans won't sell to others not the series 60
good luck
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I was just listing what Prevost has on their website listing engine choices for new coaches. They still list the 2007 Series 60 as an option, but I know that isn't correct as it would have to be a 2010 engine plus the Series 60 is no longer sold.
How can MCI still offer the Series 60? Detroit doen't list it a product anymore. I thought Detroit never updated the Series 60 to 2010 pollution standards and now sells only their new DD series?
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MCI offers the CUMMINS ISX as standard while the new DETROIT 13L is optional. I guess MCI has a special deal with DETROIT(DAIMLER) like PIERCE(fire apparatus) does. Not sure if VAN HOOL still offers DETROIT as they did in '10 but PREVOST is supposed to be VOLVO only as of this year. SETRA is part of the DAIMLER empire so naturally, it's their preogative the exclude other engine builders.
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FWIW, cost of replacement parts (and availability) on proprietary engines would be an issue for me. Volvo's pricing on things I've seen in the past and Mercedes availability have both caused heartaches and headaches. I assume for the Paccar line-up it will be the same. Too bad about the Cat Truck deal but I am not surprised
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MCI offers the CUMMINS ISX as standard while the new DETROIT 13L is optional. I guess MCI has a special deal with DETROIT(DAIMLER) like PIERCE(fire apparatus) does. Not sure if VAN HOOL still offers DETROIT as they did in '10 but PREVOST is supposed to be VOLVO only as of this year. SETRA is part of the DAIMLER empire so naturally, it's their preogative the exclude other engine builders.
I guess MCI needs to update their website then, because they still have S60 / ISM listed on there. But come of think about it, S60 and ISM are both obselete.
The ISX must be the new 11.9L version, as I don't think the 14.9L has ever been put into a coach, other than a Newell. I'd love to have a big ISX on a coach, it could keep up with cars with some mods!
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http://www.mcicoach.com/2010-engines/index.htm (http://www.mcicoach.com/2010-engines/index.htm)
Sometimes it takes awhile to update their brouchures. But you can see that DETROIT engines are optional.
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It shouldn't be that hard to update a website. On both Prevost's website and MCI's website they still list pre-2010 engine options for each model they currently sell. They have a seperate section about 2010 engine options, but I have no idea why they update specs for each bus model.
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They may have had orders to complete coaches with pre 2010 engines so they had to finish those orders so that may have explained the lack of updates. You're right though, it makes you wonder what the "webmaster" does all day. :)
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Many have the situation of the Detroit engines backwards. Detroit will sell their engines to anyone that wants to buy them. Many military vehicles still use the 6V-53TA, 8V-71TA, 8V-92TA-which all three are still being made. Series 60 is still being made for commercial and marine use.
Any manufacturer that wants to offer a Detroit-can. The main reason the truck manufacturers dropped the Series 60 from their lineup of engines is that when Freightliner bought out Detroit Diesel, the other manufacturers felt they would then be buying from the competition. I know several big trucking companies that had been using White/GMC/Volvo, Kenworth, Peterbilts-all with Series 60's that switched to Freightliner because they wanted the Series 60-not the truck.
Now just a matter of time before we see the DD engines in buses. Good Luck, TomC
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If Detroit engines are available for any manufacturer to use why does Detroit's web page for the DD15 show it as available only in Western Star and Freightliner trucks?
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If I were ordering a coach and had an option for an engine it would be an ISX600, no if's and's or buts. I would take a Caterpillar C15 first, but you cant get them now, so....ISX all the way.
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http://www.mcicoach.com/2010-engines/index.htm (http://www.mcicoach.com/2010-engines/index.htm)
Sometimes it takes awhile to update their brouchures. But you can see that DETROIT engines are optional.
Thanks for the link.
I find it surprising that they'd put an ISL, primarily a transit engine, in a highway coach. Then again, why not? It probably run circles around the early 11.1L S60 they put in the origional 102D models. Shows you how far we've come in terms of technology, even considering the emissions choke-up.
I also find it surprising that the J/E series gets better mileage than the D series, considering the D is lighter and smaller in frontal area. The J/E must have significantly better drag coefficient.
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It appears to me that the ISL may only be available on the 40 foot version of the D series. For sure it is only available on the D series. It is still a better engine than the 6V92 they put in 40 foot coaches at one point. (Yes, they still make a 40 foot coach if you want one.)
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It's only a better engine if you buy a pre 2007 model. the EGR engines don't last and cause all kinds of engine coding grief. I work on the transits every day and they do not perform well at all.
Gerry
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It's only a better engine if you buy a pre 2007 model. the EGR engines don't last and cause all kinds of engine coding grief. I work on the transits every day and they do not perform well at all.
Gerry
I'd say 2007 - 2010 are the worst 3 years ever for diesels. They tried to control NoX levels by aggressive EGR, which produces lots of soot. They then tries to eliminate all that soot by aggressive regen on DPFs. It's a bad cycle.
I do think the newer Urea Injection based diesels will be better, as Nox is now offloaded to downstream treatment instead of highly inefficient EGR.
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I know that Prevost started putting series 60 in 1994, right at the end of that year, supposedly only 5 got them in 1994 All 5 were 40 ft coaches, last year for the 40 ft, went to 42 and 45 in in 1995 and all series 60.
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Bill - I think we all discussed this before - Weren't the (5) series 60's all VIP's? I think you meant H3-41's (not 42's) only made for one year
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Comparing a transit buses performance (which is thee hardest service any engine can be asked to do) to using the engine in a bus conversion is just not the same. The ISL is just about the perfect motorhome engine. It is 1300lbs lighter then the ISX, 1000lbs lighter then the DD or Series 60 engines, and tremendously smaller physically. Current engines have a 450hp and 1250hp rating for motoehomes-almost as much power as an 8V-92TA (actually more compared to the stock 8V-92TA at 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque). When and if I have to up grade my 3406B Caterpillar 400hp in my truck to a smog engine, the ISL will be the one I use. Good Luck, TomC
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OK on the Setra/Diamler issue. I have a little insight being we own 6 Setra's and I pretty much keep up with what is happening with them.
I was told by Setra that Diamler NA was not going to restrict the sale of DD's to just Setra coaches. When I asked why not they told me there were several reasons.
1) was that it some how violated fair trade laws. yada yada yada. (also why the rumors that the Van Hools would be the only coaches allowed to use the Cummins engine went away fast!
2) it was said that if Setra were to be the only one allowed DD's and Van Hool had exclusives to Cummins and Prevost had exclusives on Volvo, and CAT getting out of the US OTR Market then there would be lawsuits from MCI about anti-trust laws & monopolies and all that junk! Supposedly when all these deals were being done it looked like MCI was going under anyway and nobody was worried. But when MCI was able to make it's deals to come out of the bankruptcy everyone back pedaled and rethought their strategies!
That is the way it was explained to me by those in the know @ Setra.
;D BK ;D
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Very good perspective thanks for the insight. Evidently, PREVOST(VOLVO) is confident on the idea of offering VOLVO engines only at this time. It wouldn't shock me too much if VAN HOOL began to offer MAXXFORCE engines at some point or even MCI doing that. BCI was supposed to offer MAXXFORCE exclusively but since they are out of the picture, MAXXFORCE could make a pitch. Some of you know that I own CUMMINS stock but I like the idea of buses and fire trucks offering engines from different builders. It keeps competitors on their toes and the coach builder can give customers a choice. BOEING offers a choice of 3 engine builders on the 747.
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My idea of the Cummins ISL being better than the 6V92 is that it has better HP and better torque. Some might not call the ISL better because they don't like the electronics and all that on new engines.
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Niles you are right, they were 41 footers, BUT mine was a hwy coach and it has one of those 5, with a 4 speed allison
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I love my 2 strokes what really gets to me every time this comes up everyone compares the 6v92 a 9 L engine to the 11 L Cummins do apples to apples and the 6v92 will hold it own with the L10 or 8.3 Cummins ,hp,torque and fuel mileage now you know lol
good luck
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6V-92TA with 90 injectors will put out 340hp and 1000lb/ft torque. The new Cummins ISC will put out 350hp and 1000lb/ft torque. The Cummins L10 put out around 335hp and 950lb/ft torque-so yes-they are on par with each other power wise. But- a mechanical 4 stroke will always get better fuel mileage then a mechanical 2 stroke. An electronic 2 stroke will get the same mileage as a mechanical 4 stroke. The electronic 4 stroke will get the best fuel mileage of all engines. Good Luck, TomC
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I think people compare a 6V92 to an L10 or ISL because they are used in the same application (as is the Series 50) - transits and light coaches, and town tractors.
The 8.3 ISC is a lighter duty engine, typically used in school buses and 5 tons. I don't think it's the same class as a 6V Detroit.
Tom, you mentioned putting an ISL in your truck. I assume that's a truck conversion, and not an OTR? I'm gonna guess that ISL can't provide the power AND duty cycle for OTR use?
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ISB, ISC, ISL are considered medium duty engines. Typically around 50,000 miles a year. You can use them OTR, but be ready for an overhaul in the 4-500,000 mile range. The big block engines have 1-1.2 million miles before overhaul. Good Luck, TomC
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You can use them OTR, but be ready for an overhaul in the 4-500,000 mile range. The big block engines have 1-1.2 million miles before overhaul. Good Luck, TomC
And so, where does a two stroke fall into that category?
And, are there any mechanical injection 4 strokes we can use?
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Detroit 2 stroke engines (series 71 and 92) are considered heavy duty engines. Mostly will last about 500k mi between overhauls. I've seen some 12V-71N's go over 800,000mi, but that's pushing it. 2 strokes just need more preventative maintenance and don't last as long because of the rings going over the intake ports constantly. If the 2 strokers were available with common rail electronic fuel injection, and particulate traps, we could see them at least get to 2002 if not 2007 engine certification. Curious how they are still being used in EMD (Electro Motive Diesel [which is now owned by Caterpillar]) and the 2 stroke design is both the most fuel efficient engine and also the largest made (for ships).
As to mechanically injected 4 stroke engines you could use-In the power range of the 6V-92TA is the excellent Caterpillar 3306TA, and the Cummins L10. In the higher 8V-92TA horsepower range is the also excellent 3406B or C up to 425hp (400hp with jacket water aftercooler [like I'm using in my truck], and 425hp with air to air intercooler), and the Cummins NTC 855cu/in engines up to 400hp (they made both a 444hp and a twin turbo 475hp which both proved to be less than stellar engines). These engines will also get around 500kmi before overhaul. Good Luck, TomC
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"(they made both a 444hp and a twin turbo 475hp which both proved to be less than stellar engines).
;D ;) ;D
Worst engine I EVER HAD was a 444!
;D BK ;D