BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: NEO/Russ on January 09, 2009, 09:16:42 AM
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My daughter lives in the MSP area and has a contact that is trying to help his church buy their own bus. They want a full sized to take groups to several areas away from the twin cities, not a schoolie or airport shuttle. They need an automatic for various drivers, but otherwise what is most important is very good condition inside and out and dependable.
I've gotten away from buses and turned to big HDT/fifthwheelers, but I know this group can suggest a few things.
* Is there a brand/model that would be good to look for in the $15-20k range?
* In the western burbs of Minneapolis(or the city area in general) is there a
reputable dealer?
* In the western burbs of Minneapolis is there a good service dealer/mechanic
for inspection or repairs?
Thanks for all feedback and have a great '09. Russ
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I am going to throw a few questions your way to help zero in on helping with recommendations:
1) Any feel for the annual mileage that will be put on this bus?
2) Will the bus be used more for day excursions, or multi-day trips? (cargo space underneath?)
3) On board bathroom facilities needed/desired?
4) Does the usage lean more toward the types of trips where every seat will be occupied (ie: number of seats important), or extended trips where maybe 60-70 % of the seating is actually used.
5) Will maintenance be handled by a commercial shop, or church members?
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Exactly what I was looking for to qualify the purchase. I will forward and get back to you next week - thanks.
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C&J Bus Repair is the place to go in Minneapolis for bus repairs and inspections. 952-881-0034. I get my yearly oil change, lube job, and inspection there.
JD there also sells buses from time to time, but mostly well beyond the church's budget.
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I saw this bus via Oodle yesterday and thought it looked like a sweet bus for $15k
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180319473794&category=6728
Cheers, Paul.
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Russ,
You might pass along to your daughter that those "various drivers" who need automatics will also each need a class B CDL with Passenger and Air Brake endorsements. The coach will also need to pass DOT inspection and be registered with the FMCSA.
It is a popular misconception among churches that they are somehow exempt from this requirement, particularly if the driver is a volunteer. The FMCSA and DOT consider a church a commercial enterprise and all the CDL and commercial inspection and weight rules apply, along with log books and hours-of-service -- even if the driver is an unpaid volunteer. This is inviolable if the coach is driven across state lines, as it now becomes a matter of federal law. If it never leaves the state, then MN law applies, which may be more lax. In any case, they should definitely do the research.
All enforcement agencies are giving this issue much more attention since a busload of church members ran off the road a few years ago behind an unlicensed (wrt CDL) driver:
http://www.nacba.net/PDF_FILES/Fatal%20Crash.pdf
Ironically (to you and me, at least), the bus involved in that case was a Neoplan.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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Excellent point sean, one of the churches in this area fought that battle out locally and lost, they were under the impression that because they were a church they were exempt but when they got pulled over by an MDOT officer they not only couldn't produce a log book or a CDL, the bus was found to be in a sad state of repair and was redtagged by the officer, the bus had to be towed from the stop and the church was forbidden to drive the bus until a long list of safety and mechanical violations were corrected, needless to say a legal battle followed with the judicial ruling being that when the church decided to become a motor carrier they also took on the responcibility of meeting the legal requirements of operating as a motor carrier, they paid the fines, court fees and sold the bus, interesting side note, the attorney they had retained to represent them in court now owns the bus and is converting it to a camper. thats how I became aware of it, I piled some sawdust in and about it lol.
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I have heard that insurance for this type of use is VERY expensive. Probably something else the church should look into before purchasing too.
Glenn
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Russ -
At one point in time, the large church I was a member of seriously considered buying an MC-9, for exactly the same reason's your daughter's friend's church is doing. One of the committee members looking into the project was a conservative CPA, and he asked the important questions, some of which have already been covered here. But the questions he asked that REALLY got their attention was related to how much the vehicle would cost them on a yearly basis, vs chartering a coach from a local, reputable charter outfit, based on the number of projected trips.
Guess what?
It was cheaper to charter than to own - and with none of the associated headaches!
Suggest to your daughter that her friend explore the same comparisons, especially with a volunteer organization.
OTOH, if the church is big enough, and the numbers pencil in that it's less expensive to own their own, then suggest the church also HIRE somebody to oversee the transportation dept. (Then add in that salary package into the operating cost, too!)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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I am the volunteer driver/mechanic for our local junior hockey team's bus.
One more consideration is very important: the moral and legal responsibility/ liability of operating your own bus. Your organization has to ask themselves: what if a volunteer driver puts it off the road one night and injures or kills somebody? A part time volunteer driver is never as good and confident behind the wheel as a full time professional with a charter company.
In our case, the closest charter bus co. is 70 miles away, so it would be too expensive to charter. But if your church is in a city, tell them to charter when they need a bus. The liability is born by the commercial bus company, not the church and the volunteer driver.
That is worth thinking about...
JC
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Quite a few "professional" drivers are no more than steering wheel holders these days. (There are still plenty of good ones out there too.)
I suspect any volunteer driver has a greater sense of responsibility to his/her passengers and will take less chances especially if his/her family is also on the bus. Any volunteer willing to undergo the training and testing for a CDL is putting a pretty big committment into driving a church bus.
That said, I agree with others that a charter will most likely be less expensive in the long run. If a church will run a bus multiple days a week to justify their own bus can they find enough qualified volunteers or will they need to hire drivers anyhow? One thing that does come up with charters versus owning is who pays for everything? If church groups have to pay for a charter themselves they may not go, but if the church owns a bus and pays the insurance and repairs then groups are more likely to go if they pay fuel and tolls only.
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If the church already has members who are experienced, professional CDL holding drivers, that is one thing. But if the intent is to have a few folks go out and take their CDL certifications, that is another thing.
I am picturing the church coach being used 1-2 times a month, with a pool of drivers. Much as they may care about their families sitting in the back, you still have drivers up front that have limited hours of experience, and only get to drive a few times a year. There are good and not-so-good proffessionals, just like their are good and not-so-good volunteers. I'd take my chances with the professional that has greater experience and miles under their belt.
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The big insurance coverage on my Eagle as a motorhome is under $600 a year. $50,000 collision, $1Million Liability and same uninsured motorist. For a commercial bus its around $6000 a year for comperable coverage.
I believe that if I truely wanted to donate my services on occasion to my church for no charge, my insurance would be binding. However if I were to allow them to pay for some fuel or other costs and something happened my insurance could skate on the injuries.
I have had to sue my insurance before to cover uninsured/underinsured motorist and would want to be sure that everything was proper on my end to avoid losing.
I have been in the freight end of the transportation business all my life,(40 Years). I have rarely driven passengers, (a couple years in college as a work study program) but basically, I do not like the responsiblity that goes with being the one that gets people injured or killed. Its alot more relaxing to haul freight and easier to sleep at night.
I see no circumstance that I would turn any driver loose with passengers of any kind that did not have a CDL, a drug test in my file, an app for employment,(Verified), a 10 year copy of their PDL and CDL (A clean one too), at least 100,000 miles, (Thats not much) all weather experience with a bus and a P endorsement, not to mention the log book and a Prorate/Apportioned Plate for the Vehicle, (Prepaid Annually) that covers each state the coach will operate in.
Thats not all, but it is probably enough to keep the Pastor out of jail.
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Russ,
You might pass along to your daughter that those "various drivers" who need automatics will also each need a class B CDL with Passenger and Air Brake endorsements. The coach will also need to pass DOT inspection and be registered with the FMCSA.
It is a popular misconception among churches that they are somehow exempt from this requirement, particularly if the driver is a volunteer. The FMCSA and DOT consider a church a commercial enterprise and all the CDL and commercial inspection and weight rules apply, along with log books and hours-of-service -- even if the driver is an unpaid volunteer. This is inviolable if the coach is driven across state lines, as it now becomes a matter of federal law. If it never leaves the state, then MN law applies, which may be more lax. In any case, they should definitely do the research.
All enforcement agencies are giving this issue much more attention since a busload of church members ran off the road a few years ago behind an unlicensed (wrt CDL) driver:
http://www.nacba.net/PDF_FILES/Fatal%20Crash.pdf
Ironically (to you and me, at least), the bus involved in that case was a Neoplan.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Aside from the "Pray it dont breakdown Miant program" I have looked at a few "Church" busses and Found them Sadly lacking, Mushy brakes, leaky air lines, badly worn tires.. I wont consider a CHURCH Anything again..
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RJ hit the nail squarely on the head.
We had a sister church in our association that bought a bus for about that price, promptly blew an engine on the first ski trip. After rebuilding it, then the AC went out. After rebuilding that, the bus was sold for less than they originally bought it. It nearly broke the church financially and left some very hard feelings among some of the members. From that experience I think it is better to charter a professional.
If they are determined to buy then figure the expected annual mileage and ask a bus company what they would expect that annual cost may be. It may take your breath away. Obviously your mileage will be much less than a bus company, so the actual cost will be much more per mile than a high mileage bus company. They could give you an idea on fixed cost just to own even if the bus is parked behind the church all year.
David
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Seems to me all this mess (concerns) may be completely avoided just by Chartering from a good company whenever you need a Coach? Bottom line, bottom line.
Toos bad you're not out West somewhere, then the answer is easy; a recently retired Crown Supercoach ex-school bus with a Turbo Detroit, Jake and Allision.
Mid 1980's, two axles, about 36 feet long, 96" wide, (pick the flat glass model) white roof, seats about 40-50 high school students, 10-12 mpg, high quality, etc., etc..
Want to learn more about Crown Supercoach School Buses? wwwcrownbus.com will get you to a site with all sorts of connections and stuff. Good luck. HB of CJ
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Thanks guys for all the great advice. I passed them along and here is what my daughter had for replies;
Friday -
"1) Any feel for the annual mileage that will be put on this bus? about 10,000
2) Will the bus be used more for day excursions, or multi-day trips? (cargo space underneath?) will do some multi-day, so some cargo space is needed
3) On board bathroom facilities needed/desired? doubt it
4) Does the usage lean more toward the types of trips where every seat will be occupied (ie: number of seats important), or extended trips where maybe 60-70 % of the seating is actually used.
5) Will maintenance be handled by a commercial shop, or church members? commercial--I know JD at C&J and already told them to go there. He is FABULOUS and remembers me whenever I call or stop by. They are also the guys that a lot of smaller shops in the area use(including the one the Scouts used near Green Bay) Note: my daughter was Transportation Director for the Madison Scouts for about 10 years, she's about 5'-1" and has driven many kinds of busses, as well as 18-wheelers from coast to coast all hours of the day, so she has a good knowledge of getting repairs, and Jim [who has a CDL] was one of her drivers, but now retired.
Today -
"Jim checked with the activity guy at church. Bathroom would never be used-if possible not having it would be better to avoid confusion. Closer to 35 in that 35-50 passenger range. They are actually replacing 2 - 15 passenger vans and a school bus with this(which means they are already aware of all the commercial vehicle size nightmares that go with a bus-though he appreciates all the info people have been writing in and will go over it all with the church council to be sure they haven't been missing something all this time). The thought right now is to find the type of bus (brand, specs, price range) then run it through the beaurocracy of the church council. If all passes-find and purchase a specific bus.
He says THANKS for all your help-"
So with that information - any suggestions so they can get a price range for a descent unit?
Thanks one and all....Russ
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I for one would contact another church that has a bus and ask lots of questions, you never know what lies around the corner. ;)
Good Luck,
Paul
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Sorry if it appears I'm beating this to death, but a mid 1980's Crown School Bus can be had for a lot less than $5000.00. Most of those year model's had the DD 671T with the 650 series 4 speed Allision. A few have Jakes.
Some will have just been retired from school bus duty and may have a 2008 CHP (California Highway Patrol) school bus inspection, which is the mother of all examinations. A state-wide political/environmental situation.
These perfectly good busses are being retired from active service one day and sadly most are going the next day to the wrecking yard where they are parted out. Midship engine, heavy truck components, huge brakes,
Absolutely superb handling, seat about 40 to 50 high school kids, (did I already say that?) have boxed frames with a bonded/welded/bolted aluminum body. Cold/snowy options available. Mine got 10 to 12 mph at 55 mph. Top of 85.
Crown Coach went belly up in 1992 or soooss. New Crowns cost about twice to three times more than the cheapo schoolies. Twenty year or 200,000 warranty, bumper to bumper, parts and labor. The best of the best.
Downsides is they don't have MEANINGFUL under floor storage. Mine had two big trunks. No toilet or A/C, but could be added if really needed. Drives like a car, stops better than some pickups. www.crownbus.com will get you started.
Another possible disadvantage is that Crowns were/are kinda a West Coast thing with a few getting as far as Colorado and New Mexico, but most in California. Most of the components are off-the-shelf heavy truck stuff. Hope this helps. HB of CJ
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Today -
"Jim checked with the activity guy at church. Bathroom would never be used-if possible not having it would be better to avoid confusion. Closer to 35 in that 35-50 passenger range. They are actually replacing 2 - 15 passenger vans and a school bus with this(which means they are already aware of all the commercial vehicle size nightmares that go with a bus-though he appreciates all the info people have been writing in and will go over it all with the church council to be sure they haven't been missing something all this time). The thought right now is to find the type of bus (brand, specs, price range) then run it through the beaurocracy of the church council. If all passes-find and purchase a specific bus.
He says THANKS for all your help-"
So with that information - any suggestions so they can get a price range for a descent unit?
Russ -
Here's an MC-9 from rust-free Southern California. This particular company, Inland Empire, runs a great operation, with a good PM program. Would make somebody a good coach, for a reasonable price, so share this link w/ your daughter.
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/971605309.html
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)