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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: JohnEd on May 12, 2011, 03:28:21 PM
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I am not an advocate of anything other than the principle of the thing. I keep hearing about this and I would like to put it to bed once and for all. I refuse to believe that it absolutely cannot be done. Economically or safely or? may make it out of the question from a economical perspective but thats a long from "can't happen".
Maybe more of us have info even if it is anecdotal. I am all ears and my mind isn't closed to info in any direction. I understand WALS reservations...truly, I do. But in the perspective that he has all the WVO oil he needs and can make BioD or properly treat WVO, he isn't a good fit for the guy to be looking into the merits of WMO. And that is completely ignoring that he s very very busy with work and other pressing issues. I have sympathy and will disrupt his routine as soon as I can visit.
I would want to see those engines and maybe one torn down. Meeting these guys face to face would be nice. Anybody here up to that?
Thanks,
John
from Doug Miller drmiller100@hotmail.com
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date Wed, May 11, 2011 at 7:56 AM
subject [wastewatts] making stuff
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I make my own diesel fuel for 52 cents a gallon. I make it from used motor oil, a tiny bit of gasoline, and I filter the heck out of it. I make it at the rate of 2 gallons a minute, and the work involved is minimal. I've been driving it for about 40,000 miles, and about 10 guys locally are running it, and 20 or so across the country are happily running it.
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Hi John
I too have been a member of the wastewatts group for years. However I process my waste motor oil for the purpose of heating the shop. ( 5000 sq ft )
I mix the various oils and gasoline to change the viscosity of the oil as I heat the shop in -40 degree weather.
It really depends on where you live ( temperature wise IMHO)
I produce some pretty nice diesel fuel not sure if I would ever run it in the bus tho.
A new website regarding waste oil burners is at wmoburners.com a spin off of a yahoo group wasteoilburners
Moderator Edit: As per Paso One's request, I have disabled the link. He indicated that the site was hacked.
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The question is?? Do you have the money to rebuild the topend of your Detroit engine if it soots or scores the cylinders. I asked this very same question months ago > however it was with regards to using it in the Genset or Webasto. The wisdom was that the metal fines would wear out the fuel injection pump.
I'll just keep on burning it in my shop heater.
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The bus garage I just used to replace my windshield burns waste motor oil to help heat their shop. I saw what I thought was a fuel oil tank and was wondering why they would burn fuel oil when natural gas is far less $$. On second look I realized they were burning waste oil.
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It would be best to filter the stuff with a super fine filter like a Gulf Coast bypass filter. Then try it in a generator or small engine first. It is important to get the viscosity and burn temp correct. Too much volatiles could burn a hole somewhere in the engine. How about mixing it with winter (thin) diesel?
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Drip it across a magnet, filter , thin it and run it. ;)
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Drip it across a magnet, filter , thin it and run it. ;)
The common word is that if you add the RUG first you get a much reduced settle time and you have more stuff drop out. What I have heard many say.
I think when I get into alt fuels I will make a "Simple Centrifuge" my first purchase. If the stuff is thin then the centrifuge can have a really high thru put. Thicker oil just takes longer. I would also opt to run my motor oil thru the cent on a regular basis.....5,000 miles. My drain plug is a pretty strong magnet and if I find any stuff there I would start looking really close at everything.
Thanks for the comments, all.
John
John
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I don't want this to appear to be a criticism of anybody....especially those that have been successfully doing something for years with huge success.
My problem is mixing RUG into WMO or any oil for that matter and then using that "blend" to fire a heating device in the structure. Gasoline is such a dangerous and explosive substance....to me. Your first furnace malfunction, and we know they screw up cause people make a really fine living fixing them, will probably be your last if you discharge fuel from the heating device. This was what was presented to me as a rebuttal when I brought up the possibility of viscosity management with solvents(RUG).
These guys have perfected the use of WMO as a fuel for boilers and air heaters. They are sold on the com market and work just fine. You don't NEED to run that risk. Your fuel will be cheaper if you don't blend for heating oil and build the WMO unit with the plans and materials out there..
I hope my expression of my personal hangup doesn't offend anyone.
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Ive wondered about running a mix of wmo and wvo thru a cf....... start on diesel and shut down on diesel... or even making biodiesel with wmo
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Brat,
You can't make BioD from WMO or any petroleum oils. Boy would that be a boon. It keeps coming up in the BioD forums so it is a appealing idea shared by many.
John
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JohnEd,
I would like to keep an open mind to opportunities, however my l thinking is in line with ZeroClearance. I prticipate in two Mercedes forums which many have bought old MB diesels and burn a number of waste oils, most incurr IP failures. Not all, so maybe it can be done, albeit for a finite period of time.
For me, if I did not want it in my crankcase, I do not wish to put it in my tank. Maybe old school, but Lord knows I do not have the money for an IP, or engine rebuild. Love you Luke & Bill, but no.
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The magnet is not for visible metal as just a 5 micron filter would take care of that. It is for metal that can hardly be seen.
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Reading much thats posted here and on the net, seeing some of the mixtures people are playing with, im not so sure im comfortable with all of it. Adding gasoline and oil together can not only create fuels that burn well, but can fool someone who thinks they are dealing with diesel fuel, something that wont normally burn, and create a real catastrophe when they find out it has the same volatility as Gasoline. You could throw lit matches into a bucket of fuel oil all day long and it wont ever catch fire. Add some Gasoline to it and someone could get a real surprise.
It is also sad to see those old Mercedes diesels being tossed away as has been discussed, and reading that places a great shadow over the whole WVO discussion. How truly bad is WVO to an engine, what kind or real issues have been seen, or might have been seen, had those cars been torn down and inspected? We lost a lot of data by people doing that.
At $4 gallon plus, diesel is expensive, there is no argument there. And my hat is off to Wal in running his Bus on WVO, and I hope the best. But this needs watching. There is so little data on the long term effects that it still appears risky. WMO adds yet another angle to the questions of long term effects. How does an injection pump hold up to fuel that is contaminated with acids and metal particles? How hard is it to fully clean and filter it to where its no longer harmful? And how does it burn? Does it build deposits?
When you consider that older mechanical injected diesels had different injection timing specs for different Cetane rated fuels, or that the DD has different injectors for different applications, or that they use different injectors for Bunker oil than for #2 diesel, then the idea you can simply change the fuel type and viscosity without making any changes to the injectors or injection timing becomes suspect. I for one simply cannot believe you can run any other fuel through a diesel set up to run #2, and expect it to run optimally or without some ill effects. There is a great deal of engineering and testing done on engines to find the proper timing and injection nozzle for a particular combustion chamber with a particular fuel grade, and any change to the fuel will effect the combustion of that fuel. To what degree however, is the question, and it is for all intents, unknown without some kind of testing that looks into the combustion chamber over a period of time, and a teardown of the injection pump to see how its wearing.
IOW, saving money on fuel is one thing, and great when it works. Creating volatile fuels, and putting those fuels into vehicles labeled as diesel fuel, and not labeling it, adds a danger that is simply not being addressed. And then destroying engines with WVO, and hiding the damage by just walking away and junking them, takes away a great deal of knowledge that could have been used, either to find work arounds to the problems, or to find its simply a dead end. A $10K engine failure after saving $9,998.00 on fuel isnt saving anything.
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My problem is mixing RUG into WMO or any oil for that matter and then using that "blend" to fire a heating device in the structure. Gasoline is such a dangerous and explosive substance....to me. Your first furnace malfunction, and we know they screw up cause people make a really fine living fixing them, will probably be your last if you discharge fuel from the heating device. This was what was presented to me as a rebuttal when I brought up the possibility of viscosity management with solvents(RUG).
These guys have perfected the use of WMO as a fuel for boilers and air heaters. They are sold on the com market and work just fine. You don't NEED to run that risk. Your fuel will be cheaper if you don't blend for heating oil and build the WMO unit with the plans and materials out there..
I hope my expression of my personal hangup doesn't offend anyone.
In my boiler the % of RUG is so small It is almost the same as the old carberated engines of years past.
When the old cars flooded you had to change the motor oil as so much Gas got into the oil pan it diluted the oil.
I have capacity of 2000 gallons using " settling" as the main cleaner.
so many differant types of "oil " is mixed in that process that the rug is very minimal you can maybe light a soaked rag :) not very explosive
Just the mere mention of RUG in the mix sends shivers to many. :) not for the informed :)
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In my boiler the % of RUG is so small
I have never heard of adding only a couple percent of RUG to WMO. In saying that I am defending my post. Despite have read about this stuff for years, I get my eyes opened on issues daily. And that is a good thing. I'll just bet that before I finish this reply we are in agreement on almost all of it.
I have capacity of 2000 gallons using " settling" as the main cleaner.
Settling works really well on WVO and I suspect it would work for WMO. Maybe take longer as the stuff LOOKS thicker to me. The added RUG, in whatever concentration, will reduce settling time and I think it will cause other nasties to fall out as well.
so many differant types of "oil " is mixed in that process that the rug is very minimal you can maybe light a soaked rag :) not very explosive
If you mix at a ratio as to make a soaked rag barely lightable then your mixing RUG isn't a consideration. I wonder why you blend at all is that is the case. WMO burners require no blending and you seem to have made a WMO burner. That info is widely available and modified burners are for sale by numerous sources. The blending going on here is for D substitute....different animal.
Just the mere mention of RUG in the mix sends shivers to many. :) not for the informed :)
Well said and so very true. I and most everyone else here wish you all manner of success and enjoyment. Make no mistake about this groups ultimate good intention and I am not saying you have.
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I'll just keep on burning it in my shop heater.
Thank you for that. Any move to put a dent in our oil dependance is a move in the right direction. If I had room for a tank and outside boiler I would be heating everything with WMO. Let there be no doubt. Hot water, jacuze, sauna, house and sidewalks and...... And if your only alternative is heating oil I think a WMO furnace is a no brainer. The things can easily be converted to fuel oil if the WMO supply dries up so there seems to be no risk at all to me.
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It would be best to filter the stuff with a super fine filter like a Gulf Coast bypass filter. Then try it in a generator or small engine first. It is important to get the viscosity and burn temp correct. Too much volatiles could burn a hole somewhere in the engine. How about mixing it with winter (thin) diesel?
You can never heat it as thin as D but "thin" would be a move in the right direction. I know that they heat the stuff way up "at the burner" so you would need more line pressure for the burn rate of a vehicle. I have a hunch that no matter how hot you get it, within reason, it will still be too thick for a D engine to deal with. But, obviously you can get it thin enuf with RUG. But flow doesn't dismiss the host of other problems associated with a substance that "the state of Kalifirnia has determined that WMO is a carcinogen". ??? ;)
THAT WAS MY IDEA. Try it in something you can work on and repair yourself such as a generator. Understand that the folks that have done a lot of research into this at Universities advocate using WVO at full load only to avoid any build up at all. At very light loads the engine combustion temp won't prevent build up regardless of heating the oil to 180 but here we go with many flying in the face of scientific proof and doing nicely, thank you. That would be my final test before using it in a $15 engine. I also bought a fiber-optic scope so I could look into the cylinder and SEE HOW I AM DOING. Even from a combustion chamber point of view these things are all different animals and add into that the fuel pumps and injectors and timing and I think you loose the concept of one size fits all. I think it is critical that you eval your own situation. (WAL, you can borrow my scope and it will take pics if you attach a digital camera but that would go for my anus, too. The pic part....not the lending.)
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Where are you guys getting WMO to burn? Do service garages just give it to you? If I drained the oil on everything I own I might get 7 or 8 gallons. Certainly not enough to use for anything.
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soooo, I guess the next natural step would be to use wvo or even wmo or even some sort of a blend with our propane appliances.... once in awhile I see gas engines that have been converted to use propane, would it be possible to do some sort of a blend with gas to keep the flash point or other slight modification....
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Reading much thats posted here and on the net, seeing some of the mixtures people are playing with, im not so sure im comfortable with all of it. Adding gasoline and oil together can not only create fuels that burn well, but can fool someone who thinks they are dealing with diesel fuel, something that wont normally burn, and create a real catastrophe when they find out it has the same volatility as Gasoline. You could throw lit matches into a bucket of fuel oil all day long and it wont ever catch fire. Add some Gasoline to it and someone could get a real surprise.
That is a valid safety concern. We deal with those regularly and with great success. Now can you hear the uproar if a DOT requirement hit the street that made it a requirement to label alt fuel vehicles tank filling point with a caution and that caution right under the "DIESEL ONLY" sticker. Not to be cute about it.
It is also sad to see those old Mercedes diesels being tossed away as has been discussed, and reading that places a great shadow over the whole WVO discussion. How truly bad is WVO to an engine, what kind or real issues have been seen, or might have been seen, had those cars been torn down and inspected? We lost a lot of data by people doing that.
We are birds of a feather on that. I lament the loss of recoverable machinery and the stupid disregard for empirical evidence. In this case I think the data is in, analyzed and the scientific conclusions are written. IT WORKS REALLY WELL There are considerations and qualifications attached to that statement. Will it work? That's a moot question.
At $4 gallon plus, diesel is expensive, there is no argument there. And my hat is off to Wal in running his Bus on WVO, and I hope the best. But this needs watching. There is so little data on the long term effects that it still appears risky.
I disagree and I think a brief investigation will bear out the truth but in the past all evidence was dismissed with some comment such as "Yes, but there are other factors and stuff." The labs and universities that do this testing run engines for hundreds of hours and tear down the engine and project that if the residue peaked at 50 hours and they saw no change over the next 50 hours then the max deposit was that that was seen at the 50 hour run time. Follow that logic? Most of the nay sayers want the test to state what the condition would be at 150 hours and they announce that reservation as though they have exposed a vital flaw in the scientific findings. If you run it for a thousand hours they still pull a reservation out of their but as a question and declare the test invalid. Present company excepted on that.
WMO adds yet another angle to the questions of long term effects. How does an injection pump hold up to fuel that is contaminated with acids and metal particles? How hard is it to fully clean and filter it to where its no longer harmful? And how does it burn? Does it build deposits?
Now you are talk'n. "How do we fully clean and make it harmless to our engines?" (loosely quoted) I am going with "It can be done cause it is a petro product". The question is how and at what cost.
When you consider that older mechanical injected diesels had different injection timing specs for different Cetane rated fuels, or that the DD has different injectors for different applications, or that they use different injectors for Bunker oil than for #2 diesel, then the idea you can simply change the fuel type and viscosity without making any changes to the injectors or injection timing becomes suspect. I for one simply cannot believe you can run any other fuel through a diesel set up to run #2, and expect it to run optimally or without some ill effects.
There is a great deal of engineering and testing done on engines to find the proper timing and injection nozzle for a particular combustion chamber with a particular fuel grade, and any change to the fuel will effect the combustion of that fuel. To what degree however, is the question, and it is for all intents, unknown without some kind of testing that looks into the combustion chamber over a period of time, and a teardown of the injection pump to see how its wearing.
I think this testing has been concluded for WVO. There are some engines and fuel pumps that will not tolerate any increase in fuel viscosity and those pumps are known due to their frequent failures pushing DinoD. You are even more than correct that we need to know the history of the pumps we will be using. Again, I think that data has been accumulated. DD is a winner based on results. VW TDI is a winner but the modern Mercedes won't allow it. Older Mercedes are a "go". Lots of info out there and just because somebody can articulate a question is not proof, in itself, that no answer can be found even ever.
IOW, saving money on fuel is one thing, and great when it works. Creating volatile fuels, and putting those fuels into vehicles labeled as diesel fuel, and not labeling it, adds a danger that is simply not being addressed.
You are correct and that is why we have all those warnings and cautions on just about every blessed thing we purchase. I have three pages of "WARNING"s in my new stereo manual. The litegous few have brought this down on us and the corps that have flagrantly disregarded our safty in the past are at the front of the list of why the lawyers are needed in the first place. Ever heard about the Pinto with the exploding gas tank? How about the Firestone tires that disentagrated after a couple thousand miles. In both these case it took a law suit to alter the corporatios behavior and stop killing men women and children by the hundreds. I don't like a lot of tis system either but I have lived thru the history and read about a lot of it that happened before my time. The alternatives are far far worse. I'll tolerate those scum that sue for everything and consider it the cost of doing bidness
And then destroying engines with WVO, and hiding the damage by just walking away and junking them, takes away a great deal of knowledge that could have been used, either to find work arounds to the problems, or to find its simply a dead end. A $10K engine failure after saving $9,998.00 on fuel isnt saving anything.
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Where are you guys getting WMO to burn? Do service garages just give it to you? If I drained the oil on everything I own I might get 7 or 8 gallons. Certainly not enough to use for anything.
Here in the Commie NW we have to take our drain oil to a disposal site and that is the store where I bought it. If I want to drain their holding tank I am welcome to do that cause they pay to have it hauled off.
Used to be you could buy "Reclaimed oil" for next to nothing. It was clear and golden but wasn't a good engine lube cause it ahd all the additives and impurities removed by heating and filtering and neutralizing, At least they did back in the 50's. I'll wager they weren't breaking new ground with filtering oil even way back then.
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soooo, I guess the next natural step would be to use wvo or even wmo or even some sort of a blend with our propane appliances.... once in awhile I see gas engines that have been converted to use propane, would it be possible to do some sort of a blend with gas to keep the flash point or other slight modification....
There are systems for sale out there that inject propane gas into the D intake to boost power on a hill or such. These are unsophisticated single stage systems.....on or off. I figure any power I use on a hill, no matter where I got it, would be of cost beni if that power was derived from a source cheaper that DinoD. But how much bene and at what install cost might be a sticking point. Then there is the sophisticated system that injects the propane in accord with the throttle's setting and engine's ability to use it. Given all that i wondered why they didn't just install bigger injectors but then the mfrs are not to free with their electronic data for the older engines. I did a search on "propane injection for diesel" and got a ton of data. Old technology I guess, as so many of my own bright ideas have proven to be in the past....even all the way back to grade school.
John
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Where are you guys getting WMO to burn? Do service garages just give it to you? If I drained the oil on everything I own I might get 7 or 8 gallons. Certainly not enough to use for anything.
Good question Brian I belong to a few car clubs and I just let the word out that I'll take there used oil. :)
I have friends in the equipment business and when they change Hyd oil motor oil etc.. they save it for me.
Before I converted my boiler to run WMO I saved for years. ( only need 300 gals a heating season )
My problem now is so many people call to drop of their oil or say they have been collecting for years in a 45 gallon drum and its getting full.
I have all my filtering and oil tanks in a 45' semi trailer so all is out of sight and lots of room :)
I have tanks that have only 100% HHO, 50/50 WMO and HHO, Pure WMO, Mixed WMO, HHO, RUG,
I filter etc.... in the hot summer (thinest oil ) easy to filter :)
Winter when its -40 f All I want to do is switch tanks ( turn valves ) or swap burners. selecting to suit outside conditions.
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Paseo.
You are my Hero.
John
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[wastewatts] cheap diesel
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Doug Miller to wastewatts
show details 7:12 AM (8 hours ago)
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to make your own diesel:
put 40 gallons of WMO, Waste ATF, waste hydraulic oil in a 55 gallon drum.
Add 5 gallons cheap unleaded gas
mix
let sit 3 days for most of the gunk to settle out
filter through 3 micron filter into your truck's fuel tank.
Details:
pump/filter setup to filter to 3 microns is NOT trivial.
Lots of detergents in WMO/WATF - it will scrub your tank clean and plug your on truck filter on the first tank. be prepared for it.
total cost today is about 53 cents a gallon mostly due to the purchase of the gas.
7.3 fords, 5.9 cummins, old mercedes, old vw's, every tractor we have tried so far work fine. chevies have issues due to optical sensors in the IP.
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Now you all know I am not endorsing this. I am going to save this post to "wastewatts" by Doug Miller and get more info first hand. Maybe one of you would like to contact him and then get a Knut to look into it in person. He might live next door to Clifford...who knows.
Thanks,
John
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Paseo.
You are my Hero.
John
Wow Thanks John before you corrected the typo I thought you were thinking I was a ZERO ;D
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My bad, sorry :)
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OK....I have the name of a gentleman that has been running WMO blended with RUG in his D for 40K miles or such. As well, I think there may be a dozen in his area that have been doing likewise. He lives in the Boise, Idaho area in a section called "Eagle". Who do we have in that area that would like to visit this guy and get a grip on his operation and maybe look at what his associates are doing as well. Please contact me at 541 915 083two and we can talk about it. He seems congenial and totally open. He indicated he wouldn't mind if a few visited even at different times. Always a pleasure. Mind you I don't know these people but they are familiar to me as posters on Yahoo Wastewatts Group.
Anybody in the Boise area?
Thanks,
John
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Ok call me DUM. What is RUG? I missed this part, now I have to work on my bus. To much time spent here.
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TomY,
I am a long way from ever calling you dumb, Tom. RUG is the accepted abbreviation for Regular Unleaded Gasoline among "Blenders", those that make or extend diesel by a mixing in or blending in other fuels. They, those on the forums where alternative (Alt) fuels are the topic, always specify REGULAR. They could just as easily say GAS if hightest/highoctane were acceptable but they do not. In fact, they specifically say High Octane is NOT acceptable. So RUG it is among those people and those of us that aspire to cheaper fuels and longer trips and shorter stays. ;) I guess I am a blender wanna be.
Thanks for your question. I'm sure you were not alone.
John
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Johned your one step away from being a "blender want to be". Come on over to the dark side my friend. I like to call it an alternative fuel style :o.
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Im curious why they arent blending in Kerosene rather than Gasoline/RUG. RUG almost always has some ethanol and all kinds of unknown chemicals the EPA is sure we need, MTBE being one. Kerosene would thin it out without losing so much lubricity, and without making it quite volatile.
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Has anyone heard of blending wmo with wvo, filtering and/or cf, then running them?
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Im curious why they arent blending in Kerosene rather than Gasoline/RUG. RUG almost always has some ethanol and all kinds of unknown chemicals the EPA is sure we need, MTBE being one. Kerosene would thin it out without losing so much lubricity, and without making it quite volatile.
In my case I have used kerosene yes it works great but it is so close to diesel you may as well pay for diesel :)
Teresa mixing WVO and WMO you get dirty sludge :) never tried it but many have said that is the end result.
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In my case I have used kerosene yes it works great but it is so close to diesel you may as well pay for diesel :)
RUG isn't?????
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Johned your one step away from being a "blender want to be". Come on over to the dark side my friend. I like to call it an alternative fuel style :o.
I am one step away from soooo many things. Blender is just one. I was really close....wannabee...to getting my CCP for Utah. After today I am not a wannabeeee any more. One down and a gazillion to go.
Have fun wal,
John
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Has anyone heard of blending wmo with wvo, filtering and/or cf, then running them?
Doug answered your question over on wastewatts.
Reply
Doug Miller to wastewatts
show details 7:34 AM (13 hours ago)
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Do NOT mix Waste Veggie Oil (WVO) and waste motor oil (WMO). it turns to lard in your fuel lines.
veggie oil needs to be heated up. what they are really doing is using the heater circuit to heat up some veggie oil and run it into your engine.
you need two tanks with veggie oil - one with diesel to start the engine up and shut it down with, and the other with veggie oil you use when you are driving around with.
When you use WMO, we mix it 15 percent gasoline, and call it W85. With this system, one tank, no heating, and you can mix with diesel in any ratio.
WMO and WVO both have the same problem....both are too thick to use as fuel as they are. Mixing them together just gets you VERY filthy thick stuff. The blenders are "cleaning" the WMO by adding the RUG and settling. I need to understand more about this. There are so many variables I think that no absolute answer is to be had. Engine fuel pumps, electronic vs MUI and what else I don't know. Some here feel that the modern ATF will not work in our engines as they did in the past due to advances in chem additives but they seem silent on the current threads. WMO blending just seems like such a totally "wrong" idea to me and others. BUT those folks are pulling it off over there in Boise and from what I read in the forums they are far from being alone. Very old generation engines? Don't know. Please don't think I am anything but an advocate for researching the practice and concluding it validity.
This came up in the past on this board and the consensus then was ...LUNACY....
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wvo and wmo blending create sludge....... okay. What if they are heated, a little rug added, settled, dewatered and filtered with magnets..... has anyone tried this in the forums you are in?
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Morning T. Take a Mason Jar and mix the ingredients and let it sit for a day or two. See what happens. Put in the fridge and make mental notes. Then take the lid off and set it out in the sun to warm it up. I have so answers to the questions you pose. I am a "way out of the box" thinker, but wmo/wvo/rug mix is so far out there. I am certainly not apposed to it, I would just have to research, test myself.
Most of us, I am assuming, have DD engines which require a low ash sump oil. So an issue I see that must be talked about is what oil are we going to use in the fuel tank. Again an assumption on my part is when collecting used motor oil, one would be getting a mixture of many different oils. So when that tank oil hits the cylinder and goes bang, what will happen to the ash in the oil? Will RUG thin it enough and burn it enough to get the ash out the tailpipe?
This is another one of those issues that could create a slow death. Is it like cold wvo where you put it in and all works well and then one day we need an inframe rebuild because the rings and cylinder sleeves are toasted.
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This is a good place to start in your quest for those that are into all sorts of alternate fuels:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums)
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Ok, Im gonna search around. Im not set up to filter wvo and do my own experimentation with it yet. So far Ive only used the biodiesel my brother makes, and getting used oil is illegal in ca...... but Im still wanting to get set up for when out of state and such.
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With all the reading and visiting sites and talking to people I have come to some conclusions and maybe a solution.
CONCLUSIONS TO DATE:
WMO won't work in a DD two stroke as a fuel because of ash contamination/build up.
WMO settled and blended with RUG is a viable fuel for smaller D industrial engine and cars and trucks. Perhaps direct and indirect injection plays a role.
Those in the RV/bus arena have closed their ears to the viability of the Blend due to it's unsuitability in only one application. It may be that the blend is fully compatible with their toad power plant or their generator or house backup generator. Just for a moment consider the game changer of free fuel for the generator would have on the decision to invest in solar cells or wind generators or even camp ground selection? Free generator fuel? And we missed that savings cause the fuel isn't compatible with a 2 stroke?
While there is o standardization of the content of WMO I think you can approximate what might get in there. Here again, consider your source. Mixing in 20% RUG causes a huge particulate fall out. I have no idea what chemicals are left by either the RUG or WMO. I think that info needs to be gotten hold of so a valid decision can be made on the facts. And one of those facts seems to be that the WMO blend works just fine in Small D engines for a moderate length of time....say 40K miles or so based on anecdotal evidence that isn't sufficient to bet the genny let alone the main power plant. But its getting closer.
END
Simple solution here is to send off a sample of settled WMO blend. I will pay for the blend analysis my self if only to satisfy my own curiosity and contribute to the data on the subject. I will post the outcome/results. Pics as well if I can figure out the new Nikon D3100. That is iffy cause I have already concluded that camera is smarter than I will ever be again.
I would like to see and publish pics of the engine internals, air box pistons and chamber, for an engine in good condition that will be modified to run heated WVO. I would like to do the same for the same engine after a thousand or so miles. Any pics of any engine that has the air box opened that is running WVO would be very useful.
I will try to get WMO Blended, settled and filtered fuel analyzed and get an analysis of the crankcase oil tested to determine "ash" and other content buildup.
Sound like a deal?
John
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I would volunteer my engine for the experiment and photos on WVO although Im still trying to figure out the purpose? There is only so much wvo to go around anyway.. The wmo Im still not so sure about..... but are you going to take it apart to do photos and put it back together again? Are you going to supply me with an endless amount of vo for doing this lol
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What is RUG?
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regular unleaded gas= rug
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You guys are sure trying to hurt my Exxon/Mobil stock lol but go for it I don't mind they will sell you the rug
good luck
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In my case I have used kerosene yes it works great but it is so close to diesel you may as well pay for diesel :)
RUG isn't?????
Hi Oonrhnsay
I have never bought "RUG " specifically for my blending I tap my car club buddies for the old stale gas they drain from the latest "project " vehicle they purchased :):)
I also drain my collector cars / lawn mowers etc prior to storage. I use that gas for blending
Don't forget I am a cheap bas * tard :0 or I'd just burn HHO :D or turn on the shop gas furnace
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so what about the generators, heaters, stoves that can be run on wmo? anyone running those?
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I had at one time aspired to buy a gen big enough to run my house but soon figured out there isn't enough oil for all my ideas. Maybe after I retire I could start a rendering company, hire a collector and just skim the good stuff for all my ideas. Then sell the rest. But for now It is strictly my vehicles.
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so what about the generators, heaters, stoves that can be run on wmo? anyone running those?
Hi Teresa
If you google Lister diesel running on WMO or WVO you will find a bunch of people using the old single cylinder turning about 300RPM powering generators. The Lister diesel is as old as the Detroit diesel and is as affectionately loved as the Detroit:)
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This has detailed testimonials going back to 06. There must be more going back further but the further back you go the more all the data seems to be "this worked for me" stuff".
The really big deal is water in the oil.....it has lots. Waste oil bins in shops are treated as "WASTE BINS" and oil is not always a component of what goes in them. Eth. Gly antifreeze mixes in with the WMOL and renders it "fire proof". That contaminated shop blend is lurking for a unsuspecting "blender". KNOW you source.
http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/?cx=partner-pub-2633097455068883%3A47x6l23pend&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=waste+motor+oil+&sa=Search#920 (http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/?cx=partner-pub-2633097455068883%3A47x6l23pend&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=waste+motor+oil+&sa=Search#920)
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Either know your source or find a way to get the various componants out of the oil.
EX: I used to have my vacuum super sucker connected to a smaller tank with its own hose. I called it a glop sucker. At the time I was super picky about what oil I would collect for oil use and then I used the glop sucker to get the crud off of the bottom of the collection barrel. Now I collect it all and let it settle, draining hte nasty glop off of the containers I store them in.
I also used to spend a lot of time dewatering and filtering the oil being sent to my WVO container. I don't do that anymore, I just let time settle out all the junk and run it through a filter into the bus. I do of course check for water but have yet to have a water problem after settling for a good while. Remember, oil with a lot of free fatty acids will suspend a lot more water than a low acid count oil.
I am no authority but I would imagine settling will take a lot of your impurities out of the WMO.
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I understand your logic. What I seem to be hearing is that no matter how long you settle WMO, the instant you blend in RUG the WMO starts to drop out all sorts of crap. They also blend before they filter.
Mind you now, it is not I that takes any issue with what you said. How do you do it with your WMO fuel?
What vehicle do you run on WMO blend? Seems that IDI and DI both work long term.
Thanks,
John
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Either know your source or find a way to get the various componants out of the oil.
I just let time settle out all the junk and run it through a filter into the bus. I do of course check for water but have yet to have a water problem after settling for a good while.
I am no authority but I would imagine settling will take a lot of your impurities out of the WMO.
I do both know my source, and.....
Unknown sources I settle out for sure.
After settling out I drain the crap and water out, then hook my pump to do the filtering etc...
In my case I hvae lots of storage space so I am in know rush to settle out and use so I settle longer than the normal person.
Wal1809 you may not be an authority but you know what your talking about. same thing in my boat.
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Wal1809 you may not be an authority but you know what your talking about. same thing in my boat.
Well! I guess you have him fooled. ;) ::)
John
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Wal1809 you may not be an authority but you know what your talking about. same thing in my boat.
Well! I guess you have him fooled. ;) ::)
John
Now Johned that is simply good humor!! I chuckled. ;D
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Oh yeah back to your question. I run WMO at very very minute amounts in every diesel engine I have. When I drain the oil I keep it. I run it through a 5 micron sock filter and let it drip onto a big magnet. Then I will put 1 or 2 courts in a full tank. I only do this if I am running Diesel.
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Thank you paso one, I will chalk that up as a nice compliment!!! ;D
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I know about the Lister diesel gens, but I was wondering about a more modern Honda or something.... no?
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I asked for experience with WMO blend that was peculiar to specific engines. There is a world of info out there and people have spent hundreds of hours testing these things in real life. The following is only one answer:
Tom,
I`m not familiar with the Mazda engine and the positioning of the injector in the (pre) combustion chamber, however a problem that occurs with Mitsubishi IDI and engines using the Ricardo Comet type combustion chamber, is that when run on blend, due to the positioning of the injector which is recessed 2 or 3mm in order to keep the injector tip out of the heat, is that a disc of carbon forms in this recess and eventually blinds the injector, making for difficult starting, rough running, overheating and a smoky exhaust.
Here are some genset engines I have used in the last 8 years with a brief outline of performance on 80:20 sometimes 90:10 blend. Perkins 6-354 DI, not enough load, added oil to sump,smoky. Paxman 4RQ IDI, difficult to start, injectors blinded every 40 hours. Lister FR6 IDI, very difficult to start ran hot. Foden FD6 two stroke, very smoky and produced vast quantities of tar in the exhaust. Paxman 6RW IDI, injectors blinded, 1000 cu inch engine, too thirsty ! Perkins 4-270 DI, the ideal engine, starts quite well is matched to the load and economical. A 2.5 litre Ford DI engine which is used to drive a 20Kva auxillary generator, generally on light load, adds so much oil to the sump that I have it constantly draining into a drum when running, this engine starts easily in the coldest weather. Both the Perkins 4-270 and the Ford start to smoke after 8-10 hours run depending on load, my way of clearing this, is to load the engines fully then slowly inject a couple ounces of diesel into the inlet manifold, this clears whatever it is causing the smoke, maybe carbon whiskers growing on the injector. Like you I have experimented with the injection timing, advancing the 4RQ 2 degrees had a marked effect on the ex manifold temp but made it even more difficult to start. One thing I have learned is that the engines need to be operating at or near their rated power output for best results.
Mark.
This confirms a thought that kept nagging in the back of my mind. Short trip from front to back but.... That thought seems to be confirmed in this post: Different designs and different engines within a given design are not compatible with WMO blend. The biggest problems with the different designs seems to be happening with the IDI engines. They coke up and "shade" the injector after a time. Contradicting this conclusion is the Mazda diesel that is IDI and runs clean and efficiently in a small Ford truck and does that at varieing loads, as you might expect. DI engines do much better, as a rule, but the worst performer came from this group. The condition of a particular engine seems to come to bear and this fuel can fail drastically. That translates to an in-frame at the least. And that is a lot to be putting on the line for any reason.
The last comment by the poster Mark is about performance being associated with loading the engine. His observation is that the blend performs better if the engine is under heavy load. The DD 2 stroke is a breed of engine that does poorly if run at light load....it carbons up badly I am told. That breed of engine has done very well in spite of its inherent flaw of needing to be beat or run hard. Maybe the two stroke and blended fuel were made for each other. ?????
I have blended some RUG and WMO and will let it settle for a few days at 100 F till I take a sample over and have it analyzed. I can't see where this testing would prove conclusive in any way as the quality of the oil isn't controlled and whatever is found will be little more than of interest to me. And its my money and time, right?
John
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How much does it cost to have it tested? If it were me, I would get enough to make a couple hundred gallons of blend, settle and filter the wmo. And then in separate test jars put a 90-10, 70-30 and a 50-50 "then" go have those jars tested. If the expense of testing and all other things worked out, then run the wmo you have blended according to how the test came out until it was all gone. Each time you have enough for a couple hundred gallons, do the blend and the test again, then run it. You know enough about engines and stuff that you could examine your injectors and keep a close eye on the condition of your engine as long as you stayed on top of the blending and testing....
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One of the tests i would add is specific gravity. You can pourchase the guage pretty cheap.
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This topic does make for good reading but I have a question do any of you guys know how many HP you get from a gallon of WVO or the blend.
Just so you know my side of this story not that it means anything there would be no way I ran the used engine oil in a DD section 13 of the DD bible is very clear about the fuel requirements for a DD and not knowing much about WVO but the little I do know I cannot see where WVO can meet that requirement either,
I do like pioneers that get outside the box the world would not be much without you guy's and girls
good luck
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T,
There is a definite limit on how much gasoline you can put into a D and not suffer consequences. Those limits seem to be 10% in the summer and 20% in the winter when blended with MO if the blend isn't heated and I have yet to read of anyone heating their fuel. They typically use a single tank and if their engines overheat and loose power they increase the MO they have in concentration and if they get hard starts and smoke they add RUG to increase the % concentration. That's the performance angle.
Using the RUG at the processing outset is a large aid in the filtering and facilitates the settling. That isn't the purpose in the blend but it is a serious side beni. The purpose is to reduce viscosity at ambient temps. Given that they use less RUG in the summer it follows that they would need less still if the Blend were heated as we do the WVO.
When you drain your oil the first thing you do with it is have it tested/analyzed. That test is a huge indicator of whether you will be able to complete your next trip. If you were going to use that WMO as a fuel for anything down the line you would want to know it's suitability. I think the testing is already being done on your feed stock if you have a good source. Your feed stock should be an accumulation of tested batches. Big "IF" there. You would have to be very fortunate in your circumstances to cover some of these angles. Still, your idea of accumulating a large batch and having that tested prior to doing any further testing sure has merit. The last test I had run was $30.
Your right about needing to be able to evaluate the consequences of using this stuff as a fuel and be doing that "while" you are testing. I know "something" about engines and stuff but I don't think I know enuf to properly evaluate the affects of the fuel. I might be clever enuf to collect the info/data needed to do that but somebody smart and experienced would need to evaluate it. I don't think this fuel has much promise for any that aren't capable of monitoring quality and evaluation. There is just too much at stake.
The idea may have merit as a fuel for the genny. Only maybe. The blend looks to cost about $.50/gal. How much would you burn if you could get fuel for that price that was viable? Generators are selling for a few thousand new and I guess you could fix one for a lot less so maybe that is a option for testing and a possible use.
All of this is really "iffy" as the feed stock varies in quality and the engine may or may not be suitable. It will be difficult to draw conclusions. But, here is what I expect to learn at the minimum...what is the improvement to the WMO by the RUG dilution and settling and what is the actual chemical make up of the final blend. At the least that is entertaining.
Hope that cleared up some of it for you, T, but honestly I am out of my depth and any conclusion or interpretations need evaluated by experts. What I can say is that "will" it work is moot cause lots of people out there are using it as a fuel and have been doing so for many thousands of miles for a long time.
John
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I have a little story regarding producing Diesel from waste motor oil.
I purchase 5 acres of land, at the time of purchase, on the property was a small waste oil refinery that re cracked the oil. To produce # 2 diesel
The previous owner of the property Orville Middleton designed and developed this refinery. He is still alive and well at 90 years. He produced a very good quality diesel that he uses in all his diesel vehicles. Dodge truck with a cummins, a VW Jetta, Massey tractor, He brags that he hasn't bought fuel for the last 10 years. He has never had a engine failure or damaged engines from the old plant. I once filled up a fuel tank on a 966 Cat loader with a 3 yard bucket and worked in the yard for 8 hours I never notice any performance issues in that time, I did however notice a different " smell " from the exhaust.
He sold the plant and it was moved to Manitoba and re assembled. The Manitoba Government and a private company have entered into a joint venture to "deal" with all the waste motor oil in the Province.
I think this will be an up and coming way to recycle used motor oil in an environmental friendly manner.
this joint project is accumulating the used oil from all over the Province. The plant i believe was capable of producing 3000 gallons an hour.
I will post some pictures of the Plant when I bought the land and look for the web site of the newly formed company in Manitoba that is re cracking the oil.
www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/waste-oil-refinery-to-open-here-75724382.html (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/waste-oil-refinery-to-open-here-75724382.html)
www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/waste-oil-refinery-eyes-turning-plastic-bags-into (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/waste-oil-refinery-eyes-turning-plastic-bags-into)
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Wow! That is neat to see. What does each piece do? What does it do to the motor oil and where does the waste go? Thank you for sharing.
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This topic does make for good reading but I have a question do any of you guys know how many HP you get from a gallon of WVO or the blend.
Just so you know my side of this story not that it means anything there would be no way I ran the used engine oil in a DD section 13 of the DD bible is very clear about the fuel requirements for a DD and not knowing much about WVO but the little I do know I cannot see where WVO can meet that requirement either,
I do like pioneers that get outside the box the world would not be much without you guy's and girls
good luck
Thank you for joining in the fracus here luvrbus. Where does waste vegetable oil stray off of Detroit's requirements? Is it viscosity, esters, ash maybe? ?I ask because I am sitting here in Fort Worth with a dirty car. It used to get a mixture of dirt and oil from being towed. Not it has a real fine powder like ash that will come off with just wiping it. Very pdd t what I am used to, ut then again I am a weird person ;Db
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Wow! That is neat to see. What does each piece do? What does it do to the motor oil and where does the waste go? Thank you for sharing.
One of the interesting things to me was one of the tanks to the left side of the picture is the recepticle for catching the "sweat" That "Sweat " is gasoline. ( not sure what he did with that )
The blue tank is actually the kettle that heats the oil till it "cracks " and apparently in the refining world that is all they do ??
The product is amazingly clear compared to what WMO looks like.
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This topic does make for good reading but I have a question do any of you guys know how many HP you get from a gallon of WVO or the blend.
Just so you know my side of this story not that it means anything there would be no way I ran the used engine oil in a DD section 13 of the DD bible is very clear about the fuel requirements for a DD and not knowing much about WVO but the little I do know I cannot see where WVO can meet that requirement either,
I do like pioneers that get outside the box the world would not be much without you guy's and girls
good luck
To be absolutely CLEAR. I feel exactly the same way. MOSTLY.
It isn't HP that you can compare. Rather, it's BTUs. HP has a rate associated with it. BTU is a content kind thing.... like a gallon is.
John
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One of the interesting things to me was one of the tanks to the left side of the picture is the recepticle for catching the "sweat" That "Sweat " is gasoline. ( not sure what he did with that )
The blue tank is actually the kettle that heats the oil till it "cracks " and apparently in the refining world that is all they do ??
The product is amazingly clear compared to what WMO looks like.
[/quote]
Coming from Pennsylvania and near Drake's ville, the sight of the first oil well in the USA, we got some of this stuff in Pa. history. At the time they wanted the oil to lube the gears of the steam engines that powered the industrial revolution. D and gasoline were both an annoyance and a disposal problem back then. Having as a very small boy driven thru Oil City Pa., I can tell you that I think they sprayed the countryside and city with all the waste that came out of those old timey refineries. At least it looked like they did.
Paso,
Thank you so very much for sharing all that. It is a terrific story and an incentive for us all. Canada, huh? Canada, you say? They use trains up there and have not a dribble of WMO compared to our nation. Anybody ever heard of "cracking" WMO down here? Canadians have even stricter EPA type rules up there, right? They still haven't found a use for our acid rain, far as I've heard. Sorry, Canada. You are a great example for your neighbors to the south.
John
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I think we may be closing in on the final word and the "real" reasons. If high levels of sulfur turn to abrasive ash when combusted and that ash accelerates top end wear and general deterioration then we have the problem identified,,,,sulfur content. Or at least one and that is a start. That still has to be verified as the reason and I think an analysis is the answer to that.
Didn't the fed, not to awful long ago, call for the virtual elimination of sulfur from D fuel? I never understood why they did that. More importantly, why did we never hear of this UP-SIDE of decreasing engine wear. Starting to sound like a political question...huh? And the info I got was that the low sulfur fuel needed to have a lubricant asses so the "trucker" on the street was dumping in MO to regain lubricity.
Ever hear that using regular oil instead of cutting oil will dull a bit much quicker than running it dry? I did and the source can not be challenged. Any correlation to this discussion is iffy. But?????
Clifford,
You quoted DD manual spec for fuel. Can you share that spec with us or at least cite the sulfur content limit?
Thanks all,
John
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The DD manual on lubricants & fuel is here: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/lube-oil-fuel-requirements.pdf (http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/lube-oil-fuel-requirements.pdf)
The fuel section starts on page 27.
Only problem is that they are grouping the two strokes in with the modern engines that are built specifically to require modern reduced sulfur standards. So even though it indicates that the standards also apply to the two strokes, that isn't a reasonable indication of what they were built to be able to use. When they were in full production for commercial use, diesel fuel had a full dose of sulfur.
There are statements in there that are noteworthy, but there again may have more to do with the modern engines than the two strokes given successes some are having with running bioD, WVO, etc. Hard to say.
Page 29, regarding BioD & WVO:
Detroit Diesel Corporation highly recommends biodiesel fuels made from soybean or rapeseed oil
through the proper transesterification reaction process. Other feedstock source of biodiesel fuels
such as animal fat and used cooking oils are not recommended by DDC.
Page 33, regarding WMO:
The following fuel additives are NOT allowed:
Used Lubricating Oil – Detroit Diesel specifically prohibits the use of drained lubricating oil in
diesel fuel. Used lubricating oil contains combustion acids and particulate materials, which erode
injector components, resulting in loss of power and increased exhaust emissions.
Of course, some of the refining/filtering methods described in this thread may alleviate some of that. Not so sure about the acids, it may well take the refining/cracking method to get those out. It might be helpful to take a PH reading on it before using it.
All that said, it is in DD's best interest to only recommend & support the use of fuels that have been thoroughly tested and are refined to highly regulated standards. I don't think they test anything separately for the two strokes anymore. A lab analysis of the fuels being home brewed might yield some interesting results. If it meets the fuel specs except for sulfur, has a near neutral PH, and the sulfur is within the levels that it was before they started cutting it out, then it might be fine for the old two strokes.
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'Re-cracking' is an interesting idea and I can certainly see how it would be the ultimate way of getting 'pure' oil out of old contaminated stuff, just as boiling and re-condensing dirty water will give clean water.
I'm a bit confused about the "producing Diesel from waste motor oil" statement though. I'm certainly no chemist, but I understood a cracking tower to work on the principle that at different heights on the tower the crude oil would condense out into components of different weights - everything from tar at the bottom to the lightest and most volatile stuff at the top. Presumably then, engine oil and diesel condense out at different points, with the lighter diesel going higher up the tower. So by definition there is no 'diesel' left in the engine oil when it is originally cracked. So how can you get diesel out of the engine oil by re-cracking it later?
If (as I suspect), 're-cracking' is more of a purification thing, it would be interesting to know how technically superior it is as a process than the best 'mechanical' purification processes (ie. filtering, centrifuging etc). Also taking into account the (presumably large) energy input required in the re-cracking process.
Jeremy
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Mike,
That is a wonderful and coherent comment and info. There are ways to neutralize the PH and there must be ways to deplete the sulfur....if that shows to be required. You have pointed a way to go and the data that needs to be collected. Hah, there is a reason you get paid the BIG BUCKS...right?
Thank you very much. In all sincerity
John
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Section 13.3 pages 6 and 7 under fuel selection in the DD bible will tell you everything you need to know about fuel for a 2 stroke
good luck
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By the time you spend all the money on testing, filtering, gasoline, tanks, and all the rest are you really saving any money unless you burns hundreds or thousands of gallons a month? If you have to buy chemicals or something to lower PH and remove sulphur your savings are even less.
How long is WMO going to be readily available? More and more people are going to be looking for alternative fuels as fuel prices go up. Will we end up with businesses contracting to pay for WMO just like WVO?
It seems like a lot of people are this to stick it to the oil companies more than to actually save money.
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Good point Clifford, I forgot the older standards were in the engine manual:
FUEL SULFUR CONTENT
The sulfur content of the fuel should be as low as
possible to avoid premature wear and excessive deposit
formation. Fuel containing no more than 0.5% sulfur are
recommended. If the use of fuels with sulfur contents above
0.5% are unavoidable, lube oil drain intervals and lubricant
selection need to be changed. Detroit Diesel recommends
that the Total Base Number (TBN D 2896) of the lubricant
be monitored and the oil drain interval be reduced.
Fuel additives specifically NOT recommended
include:
Used Lubricating Oil
Gasoline
Detroit Diesel does NOT recommend the use of
drained lubricating oil or gasoline in diesel fuel. Furthermore
Detroit Diesel Corporation will not be responsible for any
detrimental effects which it determines resulted form this
practice.
The full specs and other information is there too.
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Yea Mike I go through this with other WVO users they have no idea what the base number is using WVO they just keep on using the less than 1 % ash oil where they may need 1.24 or more ash content oil
good luck
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By the time you spend all the money on testing, filtering, gasoline, tanks, and all the rest are you really saving any money unless you burns hundreds or thousands of gallons a month? If you have to buy chemicals or something to lower PH and remove sulphur your savings are even less.
I cant speak for the others, but Im interested in processing a few hundred gallons a year for just a couple long trips and around town stuff. It takes lots of fuel to move my puppy! Of course all the math has to work out, but at the price of fuel today it gives a lot of room for error I would think.
How long is WMO going to be readily available? More and more people are going to be looking for alternative fuels as fuel prices go up. Will we end up with businesses contracting to pay for WMO just like WVO?
THERE is the biggest problem I see. If the country follows what Cally does like usual, then kiss it good-bye. Cally has very strict laws on wmo and wvo
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Yea Mike I go through this with other WVO users they have no idea what the base number is using WVO they just keep on using the less than 1 % ash oil where they may need 1.24 or more ash content oil
good luck
Personally, I love that people are finding good, low-cost ways to fuel a bus. But I'm concerned about WMO and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the byproducts of combustion in an engine are acidic (or tend to form acids, like NOx interacting with water vapor to form nitrous/nitric acid; CO and CO2 combining with water to form carbonic acid; and if sulfur is there, sulfur oxides combining with water to form sulfurous/sulfuric acids) but most of the additives in modern oils are metallic and basic. And high school chemistry teaches us that if you combine acids and bases, you generally get salts and I would want to be really sure that these salts are not going to cause deposits in/on my injectors, valves, pistons/rings etc.
If you're burning WMO, you're putting a witches brew of complex chemicals in your engine -- chemicals that are mixed with the oil. And these chemicals that you're injecting with the fuel are mixed with other chemicals that are the result of the current combustion. Clifford is exactly right to be concerned about the effects of "blowby" getting into the oil that's lubricating your engine now. Too much of this can wreck the bottom end of your engine; too much ash or deposit on your injectors can wreck the top end.
I *really* hope that it works out that WMO, WVO, biodiesel etc. are safe fuels in reality (and I think that it's likely that our "elderly" engines with low injection pressures and "low tech" engine management may tolerate it better than modern, precision equipment). But my engine won't be the test unit.
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Yea Mike I go through this with other WVO users they have no idea what the base number is using WVO they just keep on using the less than 1 % ash oil where they may need 1.24 or more ash content oil
good luck
Good morning Clifford, What will the higher ash (1.24) do for the engine?
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I guess mine will be the test unit then. I am going to run WVO until the wheels fall off or a piston shoots through the roof. If there is information I can get before success or failure then I will certainly pay attention too and use it. I didn't buy the bus to have it sit in the barn. I didn't buy 8 different deisel vehicles to have anyone of them sit around to look at. I became committed a long time ago and went full throttle into the alternative fuel lifestyle. By committed I mean burn it down or build it again, no matter what I aim to be free of the pump as much as humanly possible. Have there been some bumps int he road, "Yes". Have I destroyed anything "No". I don't have an exact figure but by now we should be between 250,000 and 300,000 miles on bio diesel and now WVO.
In spite of what Belfert believes I have saved a whole pile of money. I don't have an exact figure but enough to have a shop rebuild my 6v92 every year for the next 10 years. If it goes, then I will deal with that the same way I deal with everything in life. I put my head down and bust my way through it. Mind you I certainly don't want to do that but if I have to I will.
So far as sticking it to the oil companies-That is not it. I don't want anymore middle east oil here. I come from a 100 year background in the Texas oil industry. The main reason I recieved a diesel mechanics degree was so I could go into the oil business. The 1980s oil bust is what redirected me to something else. The end of what we have known is very very near. When we hit $8.00 who will still be driving a bus?
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Wayne I have no idea about the WVO but on a 2 stroke you need the TBN to be right for long life and it has always been achieved by adjusting the ash in the oil.
On my equipment years back using the off road fuel which was a heavier fuel then we had to use 1.24 ash content oil to make the Total Base Number (TBN) work it's in your DD bible it's always been there the oil and fuel are tied together.
So is WVO heavier than diesel ? I don't know myself but I do admire you guys for getting out of the box just do a lot of checking you may need to change the oil every 3000 miles to keep it balanced lol I don't know how WVO burns in the 2 strokes
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In spite of what Belfert believes I have saved a whole pile of money. I don't have an exact figure but enough to have a shop rebuild my 6v92 every year for the next 10 years. If it goes, then I will deal with that the same way I deal with everything in life. I put my head down and bust my way through it. Mind you I certainly don't want to do that but if I have to I will.
You're using WVO, not WMO. WVO doesn't seem to be quite as bad. For some people who use a lot of fuel alternatives make sense. You have 8 diesel vehicles. your case would make sense to use alternative fuels.
I own two vehicles. One that takes gas and one that takes diesel. I don't burn enough fuel to make WMO worthwhile for me. I also have an expensive electronic diesel engine that wouldn't tolerate alternatives well.
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Sorry Belfert I meant to hit the 6 not the 8. I have 6 diesels. In your case I can see not doing the alt thing. We both live 40 miles one way from work. That is 160 miles a day minimum. Then add trips and what nots it adds up. A step son in Kentucky, step daughter in Missouri, family in Odessa and California (north). We drive and we drive a lot. I put a pen to it as we drove to Yellowstone. On the very high end and paying for fuel it would cost us at most $100 a day more in the bus than the Jetta.
Clifford I will draw a sample and send it to the lab at the end of this oil cycle. I want to know what is getting past the rings and into the sump. The last thing I want is for the WVO to get int here, get polymerization and destroy what I have going. To be continued.....
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Okay I'll chime in again!
Since I already stated I do not use my WMO in the bus engine or any other engine my comments are solely based on using the WMO for burning in the shop furnace.
One of the observations is in the burning chamber when burning WMO the chamber is remarkably clean, now that tells me it is burning cleaner than # 2 HHO.
I also frequent (in the winter) a technical web site for the best in the industry oil burner technicians.
They would be appalled at what I do ( burn WMO ) in an oil burner.
However as most tech sites these guys know their stuff and they always l ask "whats the combustion chamber look like) They usually ask this question when someone is having incomplete combustion, rough running conditions etc ( sound familiar ) hmmmm same fuel differant use. :) makes me wonder
Some amazing things happen when experimentation happens ( some things work :)
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Paso,
If you are getting away with using WMO in a stock HHO boiler you are one lucky guy indeed. There are groups dedicated to the modification of those flame thrower heads so that rthey can successfully burn WMO. Then again, they sell those heads and the entire furnace/boiler geared for WMO. I think some of those newer WMO burners will also take HHO.
What brand and model boiler are you using?
Thank you,
John
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I have an two Boilers feeding a primary circuit.
One boiler is a 250,000 BTU converted OWB that will eventually have 3 burner guns thru the side.
The one boiler is a 140,000 Benjamin which left the factory as a oil fired boiler :)
The idea is to have the ability to direct whatever " Fuel " ( WMO ) I want to the oil gun and heat the water.
I am aware of the other groups in the Yahoo groups that are experimenting, on the wasteoilburners group there is a fellow that is doing so awesome work building a pipe burner based on the Babington ball principle.
Perhaps we should continue some of these discussions on that group or some of the bus guys will be falling asleep:)
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Keep Going on this board. Interesting topic for Bus guys.
Big John
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Good reading between naps keep it here
good luck
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Maybe yall have noticed the alt fuel topics here lately have been stretching out the pages and fast. I like it too.
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I guess mine will be the test unit then. I am going to run WVO until the wheels fall off or a piston shoots through the roof. If there is information I can get before success or failure then I will certainly pay attention too and use it.
Wal,
Being the test bed is a really good thing. Means lots of eyeballs on you and plenty of opinion and advice.
I offered to send you my scope so you could look at and take pics of the cylinder chamber and injector tip. I owe you a favor of that sort based on your past generosity...and even if I didn't. I will also send you some money to pay for the additional tests that you perform to document conditions. Maybe someone here has contacts in a lab. I used to have a friend that ran a coolant eval lab and I got that service for free. I don't know anyone in the oil eval business. Have you or has anyone ever sent in a WVO sample to be evaluated at a motor oil lab? Would WVO have any sulfur in it at all? What other content would a lab analysis turn up?
Clifford has mentioned 3,000 mile oil changes if you use WVO as a possibility. Starting this thing out at what interval should you have the MO tested to insure you are safe from that standpoint? I suppose you would test till it showed you "needed" and oil change and that would become your sched interval?
You mentioned polymerization and a couple other things I am certain everyone here doesn't understand. Don't ask why I am certain of that. Leads me to believe that we have a concern for something(s) developing in the MO that is associated with the WVO fuel. What are they and how can we test for them? Seems like I am loading you. You are being loaded, for sure, but we only do that because we are sure you can handle it and more importantly, you are one of the willing.
Let me know about the fibreoptic scope. No worries...if it craps out, so be it. Just one of the Harbor Freight deals. Maybe that is another eval. Of the test equip used?
Get back to me when it is convenient.
John
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I am definately up to it. I am about to start class right now and as soon as it is over I have to get back to camp, break it down, pack it up and head for home. I got called in to testify on a case I don't want to lose. I am expecting to get home late late late!! I have to get up early, go get the evidence from the proerty room and then read the reports I wrote over the several weeks during the investigation. I do believe I will be bed bound after that. So give me a day or two to come back to earth and we will hash it out. Oh and I will take the loading up of assignments as a compliment. ;D
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. . . . When we hit $8.00 who will still be driving a bus?
More than you think.
The price of fuel won't stop me from using my bus. It may influence the type of trips we take, but we will still use it every chance we get & go coast to coast when desired.
I am taking steps to make mine as fuel efficient as possible, but I'll just include the cost of the fuel as I do now.
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Oh and I will take the loading up of assignments as a compliment. Grin
It is intended as one! ;)
John
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. . . . When we hit $8.00 who will still be driving a bus?
More than you think.
The price of fuel won't stop me from using my bus. It may influence the type of trips we take, but we will still use it every chance we get & go coast to coast when desired.
I am taking steps to make mine as fuel efficient as possible, but I'll just include the cost of the fuel as I do now.
I definately commend you for thinking fuel economy. as fuel prices are now your looking at a $3000 trip. Do-able yes, Do I want to pay that no. If it goes to $8 a gallon that is a $6000 trip. That s a lot of money. I, like you will do what I have to do to keep driving my bus. I need it more than one trip a year.
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https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1VnQzHNGXRyCebpS17oI-wdNa9gLAQwfIgsstjZfeGJzxeOAHwgZ3t6Bu9e9C&hl=en_US
This is a copy of the oil analysis I got back from Peterson Car Labs. The objective was to determine what effect dilution of WMO with 20% regular gas had on settling out contaminated oil. My pedestrian conclusion is that the RUG did not cause contaminants to settle out. The WMO sample was taken from a local shop and it was only light brown from use and it had some anti freeze in it that affected nothing. I did note that the sulfur content went up with the RUG dilution and I conclude that the RUG had a sulfur content. White gas, non road grade, fuel might make a superior blend ingredient if it has no sulfur content. I'll leave it to the Wizards to tell us if that sulfur content is beyond the limits that a DD 2 stroke can handle. Wizards?????
All of the discussion by anyone that claimed to be a blender contained cautions on settling times and filtering. They all mentioned that huge quantities of crap fell out of suspension when the WMO was first diluted with RUG. The viscosity of diesel WMO is supposed to go up with usage due to the introduction of SOOT. The RUG, apparently, allows the soot to fall out. The blenders settle their fuel for more than three days. My test showed no measurable soot so I only settled my sample for a day and a half. The viscosity reduction achieved by blenders seems to have two causes. The RUG being much lower in viscosity lowers the viscosity of the blend appropriately. Additionally, the WMO viscosity is raised significantly by the soot it carries in suspension and that soot is allowed to settle out by dilution of the WMO with RUG.
While this test, such as it is, was only useful to me to demonstrate that the only chemical improvement to WMO would be the reduction in carbon and viscosity excluding the minor reductions of components due the dilution alone. I will pay WAL to repeat this test with a sample taken from one of his D engines....preferably the DD in his bus. Unless he mutinys, that is.
Hope the link works so I can get some feedback, comments welcome.
John
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Mighty interesting results. Definately have to deal with the water. No mutiny here, I just need some time.
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That is a big turn off to doing wmo..... because from what I recall when I looked into it before, anti-freeze was a big problem in collecting from garages and stuff. Seems the mechanics dont read the sign that says "Waste Motor Oil Only" and think it says "Fluid Trash Bin"
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just curious is there a process to get the antifreeze out of used motor oil
thanks
Lonnie
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Teresa,
WMO in a garage being suspect of contamination was always a given. Any one that has worked in a shop or spent much time there knows that brake fluid and solvents go in that tank and coolant as well. The rule has always been that YOU must know your source.
Testing for water content isn't all that hard and should be done regardless of the trust you have in the source. Spilling a large drop of oil on a hot(250F) surface will demonstrate the water content. Water boils and oil doesn't. No bubbles is a good thing.
We send off a sample of our oil to be analyzed with every oil change. If that analysis shows water or coolant its suitability as a fuel additive falls to the bottom of the list. Oil gets changed at annual or sooner rates in a car...DD call for anything less? Hot oil gets changed so water shouldn't be an issue...coolant, maybe.
Don't abandon ship just yet. That MO is a suitable fuel has never been the question. Can it be made a safe and long term viable fuel is the question. How to get the harmful contaminants out is the challenge. Soot removal seems to be doable with the dilution with RUG and settling. "Seems" is the operative word and oil analysis will answer that. How clean is permissible is a hanging point as anything in the fuel that shouldn't be there is a discouraging factor. But, realistically, the consequence should be that the life of the engine dramatically shortened or life cycle costs are prohibitive. I think WAL: has penciled out his justification and it should guide us all if substantiated. He saves sufficiently on fuel burning WVO that he can tolerate more frequent overhauls and justify their expense.
John
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just curious is there a process to get the antifreeze out of used motor oil
thanks
Lonnie
A centrifuge de-waters oil and I suspect it would also eliminate coolant. To my knowledge, water and coolant are not dissolved in oil but are held in suspension. The addition of RUG accelerates that settling process by reducing the viscosity of the "blend". In theory the coolant should settle out of its own accord but how long that will take is the question. The blenders put the time required at a few days.
John
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just curious is there a process to get the antifreeze out of used motor oil
thanks
Lonnie
In theory the coolant should settle out of its own accord but how long that will take is the question. The blenders put the time required at a few days.
John
In my set up I believe the water settles out in weeks not days. I would go along with " some water settles out in days but not all.
I have gas valve drains on the bottom of all tanks. I can drain water and a/f out after a few days. but without adding any more oil in the same tank I can come back and drain an addtional gallon of water or more in 2 weeks.
I believe the water being heavier than the oil goes to the bottom, but some water must take longer to get to the bottom.
On the "property" there is an old oil refinery centifuge, it is as big as a dump truck so I can not ever see making it operational.
However there is an old "medical " centifuge that keeps catching my eye that I may "play with " in the future.
In my operation that extra process may not do anything to benefit burning it in the furnace.
However in might be handy to know first hand :) for those with other ideas
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Water should not be that hard to remove what would concern me is all the chemicals in antifreeze how would one remove the Glyco with a filter
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Paso,
The blenders say that after mixing in the RUG the "junk" settles out much quicker...days. Its their "lie" not mine. I would drain off the accumulated water after one day, then day two, then one week, and week two. and so on til I got no more water. Then I would know how long it took for sure and make a safety margin from that. You sound like a few weeks gets it all...correct? And what do you blend?
The test for water is pretty simple and involves dropping oil on a hot plate. Sizzles and bubbles are the fail indication.
HHO will tolerate more water than internal combustion. I don't remember those guys ever doing a test. I congratulate you on your use of WMO for heating. Seems like a blow for justice and the environment.
Go to a site named "Simple Centrifuge" and they have the spec on the G forces required to "clean" oil. That thing costs $1400 as I recall and no matter what fuel you are reclaiming I think that system is a must. Especially if you are space challenged.
Thanks for your comments,
John
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From other worlds:
I have a lister static engine that will start and run on waste motor oil.
Ive been doing some reading on the topic recently and came across a thread on the lister engine forum where one user (who had meen running on WMO for a great number of hours, generating electical power for his home) claimed that there was incresed ring and bore damage.
He had had no isses with the injector pump, or other fuel system components, but had seen a significant buidup of white ash in the exhaust system (as it also seen, it seems, by people running wmo powered heaters)
As he did not see ware to the fuel system, but did see ware post injector, he attributed the ware to the products of combustion, and pointed his suspician at the white dust.
I dont know about any of the above myself, but it has made me a little cautious about running my static engine off wmo. (i am likly to go for waste veg oil insted)
Julian
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gulfcoastfilters.com sells a "fuel polishing system". It might help.
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I can't believe more bus owners are not looking into this.
Based on cost alone if you get 100.000 miles out of bus on used engine oil that's great.
If normal cost of fuel is $1.00 per mile and you get 100.000 miles before rebuilding the engine.
Most rebuilds are $10.000 or less you saved $90.000.
That is a win in my book
Now with many using WMO as fuel we could find ways to process better and better quality of fuel.
come on guys lets work this out.
Lonnie
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I can't believe more bus owners are not looking into this.
Based on cost alone if you get 100.000 miles out of bus on used engine oil that's great.
If normal cost of fuel is $1.00 per mile and you get 100.000 miles before rebuilding the engine.
Most rebuilds are $10.000 or less you saved $90.000.
That is a win in my book
Now with many using WMO as fuel we could find ways to process better and better quality of fuel.
come on guys lets work this out.
Lonnie
Anything after that break even point is a bonus. Those Blenders, and I am NOT vouching for them, claim 40K and still doing fine. Their blending of RUG allows the "soot" to settle out. They filter carefully. The sulfur isn't removed by blending, as I proved, and the other contaminants associated with acid neutralization is still in there. Then again, the level of those contaminants is a variable and D drain oil is a potent cocktail while hydraulic fluid should be comparatively clean. To me the answer seems to be in the condition of the feed stock. We are back to know your source as a foundation requirement.
.
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Background primer for oil condition and analysis.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/what-are-insolubles.php (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/what-are-insolubles.php)
John
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I doubt that any would be surprised to learn that this has been an issue for a long time. This, however, did surprise me: http://prose.eng.ua.edu/ed/pdf_file/tguide.pdf (http://prose.eng.ua.edu/ed/pdf_file/tguide.pdf)
The two states mentioned are not known to be all that Green, as far as I can remember. And to have oil companies involved and supporting the effort is a welcome surprise.
I think that "fracking" being the center process eliminates any amateur involvement. I note that fracking the WMO resulted in distillation of gasoline and D as products as well as greases. I assume that they got that from the MO it self and not from contaminants being separated.
John
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And to have oil companies involved and supporting the effort is a welcome surprise.
The surprise will come when they lobby congress to make DIY oil changes illegal. Follow the money, they arent in it for any other purpose than to gain an advantage.
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Art,
No argument from me. The trick is to make it profitable for them to use a troublesome waste. I think the ships use it to fire boilers and industry uses tons of the stuff to fire heaters for making cement and other gargantuan processes. We let the oil companies, the most profitable corps in the world, operate "tax free" so why can't we incentivise WMO as fuel. Or even recrack it to make D?
John
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You all are gonna hate me for this, but I just ran 90 gallons of WMO/Tranny Fluid with 90 gal of diesel and a bottle of power service. I've run it pretty hard for 1000 miles like that. Runs great. Could die tomorrow....I guess we'll find out. I'm about to fill-er-up again in October before we head to Florida.
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Could waste tranny fluid be added to diesel at about 1 gallon per 100 without concern?
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Auto trans fluid is nearly as combustible as Diesel. Can run any amount in the fuel tank-but it is red in color. If you're stopped by the DOT and they stick the tank to find out if you're running off road fuel, they will give you a ticket. But-when they take the sample back to the lab for analysis, they will dismiss the ticket and refund the ticket price since ATF has a different composition then the red dye they use. In my opinion-not worth it. Good Luck, TomC
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You all are gonna hate me for this, but I just ran 90 gallons of WMO/Tranny Fluid with 90 gal of diesel and a bottle of power service. I've run it pretty hard for 1000 miles like that. Runs great. Could die tomorrow....I guess we'll find out. I'm about to fill-er-up again in October before we head to Florida.
Love it!!!!!!
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Could waste tranny fluid be added to diesel at about 1 gallon per 100 without concern?
No problem.
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What Wal said....both times. He tends to stutter :-* ;D
I am assuming you have a MUII, mechanical injection engine. Tell me I am right. The common rail won't tolerate that much MO in concentration and the pump will break.
Boy would it be nice if you could open an air box and get pics of the pistons and cylinders so you could attribute any complications to the WMO blend. You have a lot of company. Google "Blenders waste motor oil" and visit the blenders Yahoo Group.
Never, under any circumstance, blend WMO with WVO together or allow them to blend, even in small quantities, in your tank. That is reaching for trouble.
I wouldn't try 50/50 blends in the winter. That is asking for trouble and proven to fail. Talk to the blenders as they mix that ration in the winter and also add some Regular Unleaded Gasoline (RUG).
Thanks for sharing Scott
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Good going Scotty!!! I assume you are filtering the wmo and tranny fluid and running them pass a magnet before injecting into your engine.....
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And for those that don't read all the posts.....this applies:
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/bio-diesel-alternative-fuels-supplements/53347-waste-motor-oil-diesel-fuel-blend-8.html (http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/bio-diesel-alternative-fuels-supplements/53347-waste-motor-oil-diesel-fuel-blend-8.html)
John
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You all are gonna hate me for this, but I just ran 90 gallons of WMO/Tranny Fluid with 90 gal of diesel and a bottle of power service. I've run it pretty hard for 1000 miles like that. Runs great. Could die tomorrow....I guess we'll find out. I'm about to fill-er-up again in October before we head to Florida.
Keep us updated!!! I for one am very interested in trying it out and applaud those that are on the forefront!!
Love your posts !!!
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Not sure how much help I'll be, but I will keep running the WMO. I filter it through a 5 micron filter. That' about it. Runs like a champ, hardly smokes. Only question I have before I destroy my engine (sounds like fun) is how can I be sure I have mechanical injection...? I do not have the black box for DDEC II on top of the engine....anything specific I can look for. DD 6v92
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Not sure how much help I'll be, but I will keep running the WMO. I filter it through a 5 micron filter. That' about it. Runs like a champ, hardly smokes. Only question I have before I destroy my engine (sounds like fun) is how can I be sure I have mechanical injection...? I do not have the black box for DDEC II on top of the engine....anything specific I can look for. DD 6v92
I think that is the definitive PROOF that yours is a mechanical engine.
You are one gutsy guy. Were your engine to fail while you were traveling what would be your course of action? Destroy is a harsh way to put it. Actually, if this doesn't work out you will have plugged injectors, gummed rings and excessive carbon deposits. It isn't exactly like your engine won't run at all....just that it won't move anything but itself at full throttle. Repair is $400 per cylinder plus the other stuff needed for an in-frame rounding out to about $6K min and about the same amt for labor and lest we forget the tow bill at $3 per mile. Now hear me on this, I don't think that will happen. Too many are doing this without a hitch. But they are not doing 50/50. More like 25% as I read it and less in really cold weather. Do not use Diesel drain WMO....ever.
As Dallas pointed out running water into the running engine will blast away the carbon that might have built up. Lot of technique involved so I would suggest you talk to Dallas or someone just as "old". (laugh Dallas...it was a joke).
Please understand that my approximations are not binding to anyone on planet earth that can do the work.
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. John The sky is falling.
Think of it this way how many miles per year do you travel.
IF you get this working you can cover the cost of repair in just a year or two with money saved.
You must put money saved from fuel in the bank to cover cost of repair.
In 5 years you could save enough for ????
Good luck I rooting for you
Lonnie
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One thing I can tell you blending guys it does play hell with the filter inside the injector body I bet I have changed his a dozen times not fun either, it is not as bad now since he went to a 1 micron secondary filter he now uses a 3 micron for a primary also.
I think his filter bill would offset his savings lol but he keeps going he has a Parker fuel polishing system on his no telling what that cost him
good luck
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Clifford where is the filter you were speaking of? What engine is it on? Please tell me I don't have one ;D
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No Wayne you don't have 1 you have 6 of those little babies inside the injector lol,I haven't been around the WVO burners just the 50/50 used oil and he uses any type oil he can get even 90 w.
He never knows what he is getting from the truck oil change places and no filtering will remove all the impurities but he has been using for over 80,000 miles and his engine is starting to show results lately
What I try to tell him is not all oil is a petroleum base stock but he is like a Timex he keeps on ticking
good luck
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. John The sky is falling.
Think of it this way how many miles per year do you travel.
IF you get this working you can cover the cost of repair in just a year or two with money saved.
You must put money saved from fuel in the bank to cover cost of repair.
In 5 years you could save enough for ????
Good luck I rooting for you
Lonnie
Lonnie,
I must have allowed a miss conception here....my fault. To be clear on this, I am a complete FAN of using WMO for fuel. Make no mistake, if I ran a D it would have WMO in the fuel to one concentration or another. I offer that 50% is a bit much and base that on what the "mavericks" over on the Alt fuels sites say about it. Mine were not words of condemnation or intended to discourage but merely a caution. Lets not have a failure turn everyone off on the practice.
WAL has posted all the financial analysis on making fuels and burning WVO. He only has to make it XXX miles and he can consider the engine a consumable. I think he has exceeded his most optimistic goals so the concept of "free fuel" is no longer a theory but is proven.
I still wait for people like BK, those with a serious financial motive, to post that they are using the WMO they generate as a fuel blend. I never hear of the professionals doing this except to reclaim their engine oil for their engine.
John
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john ed
I get what your saying about being cautious. It was a good statement to always think it through.
I was just adding some humor to keep things on a lighter side.
Lonnie
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OK....Well I missed that. Had so many bad experiences with this "flat medium"....well....don't get me started.
Thanks for the clarification. I need all the help I can get. And humor....I need all of that I can get, also. ;D
John ??? :P :o ::) :-*
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Update on my methods. Starting to spend some $$$ to get into this a little more smartly. Purchasing a 2 micron filter from CAT. I bought all the transfer pump hardware yesterday. Planning to run a 10 micron filter first out of the WMO drum, then to a 5, then to the 2 before going into tank. The 10 is a water block. Also, purchasing a "Water Worm" which can and will absorb 16 ounces of water per use and will drop that into my 55 gallon drum. That being said, I really would like to get my hands on antifreeze testing chemicals that can detect coolant in any oil donated. I know they exist for the home user. Sending oil samples to a lab isn't going to work for me. Too slow. Anyone have any ideas on that? I already have obtained a source for Water Indicating Paste, so that's no issue, and a local CAT dealer has the 2 micron filter. I just need a modal to test for coolant in the oil. BTW, based on our current usage model, per year, we have the potential to save nearly $5000 per year on fuel with the coach alone. I am in the market for a Land Cruiser right now and plan to pop a 4bt or other mech injection diesel into it. If both our coach and our truck were set up to run WMO, and as long as we can get it free (right now I have sources), we're looking at a very real number of nearly $15,000 per year of fuel costs eliminated. These are real numbers. For the last 3 years in a row, we've clocked 45,000 miles on our car per year. In a truck that can obtain 18 MPG, that's $9750 in diesel fuel per year at $3.90/gal. Add in the coach fuel (this year we are scheduled to clock just around 5000 miles), and we are conservatively into the $15,000 range for annual fuel bill. I fully understand that the cost of setting up my WMO delivery system, tank heater, fuel filter changeouts, possible engine problems can and will mitigate the savings somewhat, but I'll take the risk as long as WMO is available. Anyway, all this just to ask for help obtaining coolant test chemicals for oil analysis. :-\
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JohnEd You mentioned you have a Lister that runs on WMO? I've spent the last several hours on the MicroGen forum where a huge 11 page discussion arose over using WMO in those Listers. Some pretty neat results too. I think a centrifuge is in order at some point here. The only negative by-product of burning properly filtered WMO, appears to be the ash buildup. Those Lister owners in the MicroGen forum have been running their gensets on the WMO, then tearing down the motors to see the results. White ash in every case. No one really knows what it is, but could it be Calcium? Look at this BlackStone Lab analysis of a typical oil sample taken out of a diesel trucK:
(http://thumb18.webshots.net/t/50/50/8/14/75/445281475KeGGaQ_th.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1445281475011294358KeGGaQ)