BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Darkspeed on October 27, 2015, 04:07:02 AM
-
I know most of the older buses have a fixed steering wheel but is there a reason for the flatter horizontal orientation of the steering wheel?
Is it to get better leverage on the steering back when it required muscle to steer with a giant steering wheel?
Is there anything wrong with having a more modern vertical orientation if one has good power steering and an 18" wheel?
Is the horizontal position more comfortable for long distance driving? To me it seems like the vertical position would be more comfortable..
I have a tilt telescoping steering column and 18" wheel and im getting ready to locate it and I am trying to decide on an angle for the center of the tilt range.
-
With the power steering you are putting on your bus. Use a good tilt . It makes driving so much better and a lot easier for us old people
to get in and out from behind the wheel.
uncle ned
-
Ned , I did not even think of that..
Im using a 2015 freightliner cascadia steering column and in the up tilt position the steering wheel is completely flat and way forward, now i know why....
I will rename that the McDonalds position..
-
If for some reason you blow the power steering, you'll be greatful for the horizontal choice of steering wheel. I personally like the flat steering on my transit. Good Luck, TomC
-
Design and operation philosophy? How often is full integral power steering going to totally fail? Extinct old Crown Supercoach school buses and most if not all new fire apparatus has a fall back system where if the primary power assist fails the vehicle can still be safely stopped or even driven if need be.
With a small tilt extend neat nice steering column and wheel, do understand that if your integral full power steering fails you are dead in the water. Or along side the road. If you can get off the road. Still steer the Bus Conversion? No. Even I could not. Something to consider. An engineering point of view.
-
Design and operation philosophy? How often is full integral power steering going to totally fail? Extinct old Crown Supercoach school buses and most if not all new fire apparatus has a fall back system where if the primary power assist fails the vehicle can still be safely stopped or even driven if need be.
With a small tilt extend neat nice steering column and wheel, do understand that if your integral full power steering fails you are dead in the water. Or along side the road. If you can get off the road. Still steer the Bus Conversion? No. Even I could not. Something to consider. An engineering point of view.
Interesting point..
Most modern semi trucks and class a motorhomes have tilt telescoping columns and im pretty sure the ross gear + 18" wheel would be considered the standard.
What do they do in a primary power assist failure?
Is modern power steering most often a slow failure or a total crap out.. assuming you dont cut/rupture a line.
-
Lots of modern stuff has built in POTENTIAL weaknesses. 99.98% of the time nothing happens bad because nothing happens. Perhaps a better word would be technology.
One older point of view would be ... "the fancier they make the plumbing ... the easier it is to stop up the pipes". This always has been a potential with modern stuff like power steering.
Practically every vehicle today, large or small, has full power steering. A few exceptions. Such systems are extremely reliable. They rarely fail. But when they do? Yikes!
Another non related example would be the computer controlled fuel injection and emission systems. Extremely reliable and efficient. They work. But if only one fuze blows?
How non likely is it that entire systems could fail? Practically zero. But ... all it would take is one big H bomb EMP device 1000 miles over Omaha NB to bring down the nation.
Back to full integral power steering. Along with automatic transmissions, they are the normal thing to have today. I suppose it depends upon your point of view. Very nice to have.
-
Todd -
If you were to be rollin' down the super slab at 60 mph and the engine quit, you'd very quickly appreciate the OEM 22" steering wheel!
;)
-
Todd -
If you were to be rollin' down the super slab at 60 mph and the engine quit, you'd very quickly appreciate the OEM 22" steering wheel!
;)
This ^ much more likely. I've experienced it several times as a matter of fact. But once stopped, even with the big wheel, you're not turning it much....call a tow truck
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
When I bought my 4106 I moved it with no power steering and it was like turning a battle ship, im not sure I would want to get over 30mph like that.
What do all of you folks with your tilt steering / steering wheel upgrades do in an emergency?
Anyone been hurt by this?
-
The larger the wheel, the less force required at the rim to provide the same torque input to the steering box.
(Another way to look at it - the less force to your hands as a result of reflected torque from debris, potholes, etc)
An old engineer that worked on bus steering gear boxes mentioned that you aren't going to be able to do much steering with freshly broken hands - a very possible result the wheel unexpectedly spins in your hands - as a result of reflected torque from road conditions.
BTW, front wheel alignment is usually different for manual steering - almost no caster or camber when compared to power steering settings.
It was rare for a Trailways bus to have power steering & they made it from one terminal to the next. . . .
-
Some years ago the high-pressure hydraulic hose to my fan motor split, resulting in all the ATF that supplies the fan and the power steering dumping out on the road. I could muscle the bus off the freeway and into a gas station parking lot, but it was HARD WORK ! As far as I'm concerned, my bus is not drivable without power steering. Maybe going down the freeway at 60 MPH it would be OK, but at lower speeds it's arduous. I keep my steering wheel at about 15 degrees back from horizontal so I can muscle it in an emergency, and it just feels nicer at that angle anyway. I've noticed that some of the new Thomas buses have their wheels at about a 45 degree angle - I think that would feel strange.
I've sometimes wondered how so many older British buses and coaches managed without power steering, but I think (on seeing videos of them being driven) that they had much lower-geared steering. However, wrestling a heavily-loaded double-decker front-engine bus through narrow city streets would have been a workout.
John
-
I have an 18 inch wheel on an adjustable column with power assist. I do keep some tilt in the wheel for comfort while driving. I can not see spending years of driving in a less comfortable, and therefore less safe, position waiting for a particular failure. I believe that, if the system failed I would be able to get it to the side of the road-- that's all I would want to do.
If you have a tilt wheel, maybe you could use it to maximize your comfort for now and flip the wheel to horizontal should you need it. Also it would be good motivation to stay on top of preventive maintenance on your steering system.
-
Sometimes older may be better? Back in 2001 when driving my new to me then Crown Supercoach ex schoolie from Apple Valley CA to Cave Junction OR, the Victors VT42 power steering pump totally failed North of Sacramento on Interstate Five. Locked up tight. Oil everywhere. Yikes!
Since I had thoughtfully failed to provide an adequate trip repair kit, I just cut the belts and drove the Crown home with manual steering. I had power assist, not integral power steering. Designed that way for a purpose. At highway speed the TRW Armstrong steering felt the same.
I drove her a bit that way, then found and hung a larger proper pump for the 16K front axle along with new long hoses. If I had had full integral power steering, things would have turned out very different. Again, different design philosophies. I guess it depends upon personal experience.
-
I've sometimes wondered how so many older British buses and coaches managed without power steering, but I think (on seeing videos of them being driven) that they had much lower-geared steering. However, wrestling a heavily-loaded double-decker front-engine bus through narrow city streets would have been a workout.
John
Things like near zero camber and caster settings along with the angle of the king pin/ball joints, a thing called "included angle" all have a factor on how manageable standard steering is or not. They are mucho different in a vehicle with power steering.
-
On my first truck, I had manual steering. I drove that truck for 8 years, then bought my present truck with power steering. The gear ratio on manual steering is slower than power. And the trick was to keep the lower king pin well greased. The main reason it is so hard to drive a power steering vehicle when the power fails, is the fast gear ratio of the power steering box. Good Luck, TomC
-
All I know is that when mine shut down because the wire broke off the oil switch, and i was rolling about 10 mph. i was glad i had a big steering wheel. It took all i had to get it off the road and the pavement only went a foot past the white line.
-
My first bus was a GM PD-3751 with a big flat steering wheel and not even a hint of power steering. I regularly traversed city alleys and parked in places that wouldn't be easy in a full size automobile despite the fact that I was a 132 pound 6'2 sedentary type.
The trick was learning to "shuffle" the steering wheel and you just plain can't do that with a steering wheel that is tilted very much. With power steering and a small tilted wheel, you tend to keep one or both hands on the steering wheel for complete revolutions of the wheel whereas the shuffle involves relatively short coordinated moves using both hands on only the section of the steering wheel nearest you. Someone like RJ could better describe this than I can.
Mechanical advantage and alignment are important ingredients that differ radically as noted above between OEM power and non-power steering setups so remember when you talk about steering wheel angle, you're talking about just one part of a whole system and don't forget the driver IS an important part of the system.
edward
-
My first bus came with no power steering whatsoever. I looked into an air assist but installed integral power instead. We changed out the original steering column for one we got out of a Cadillac in a scrap yard. We therefore had tilt and telescope on it. Because of the angel the column was installed at the amount of tilt ended up being relatively conservative, but I did like steering with it. Since this only had standard car size wheel, I did feel that it would need some wrestling to get off the road should the system go out. I probably should have increased the size from 14 to 18.
We have the hydraulic power assist on the 5a, and it is acceptable. I like the integral better but not so much as to pay for the change. I think that the vast number of large motorhomes and professional bus conversions use power steering and wheels designed for drive-ability. I would assume that there have been power steering failures some times. Have you ever come across reports of catastrophes related to them? Do you carry a crank in case your starter fails?
-
Even if you did have a crank, you couldn't budge a Diesel engine by hand.
-
Hey Tom, What about using a cordless drill!
Anyway, to get back to he topic, my point is that with power steering as with many other things you work out the best compromise system. It would be overly optimistic to ignore the possibility of failure but overly pessimistic to design everything as if it is sure to fail immediately.