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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: TomC on December 11, 2015, 06:39:28 AM
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Have been reading up on AGM (not even considering wet batteries) vs Lithium batteries for my deep cycle house batteries. Now that the Lithium iron batteries are being used that have eliminated fire problems, I have been on AMSolar.com looking at both solar and batteries. With Lithium, you can use all the amp/hr rating and there isn't any degration of output until the very end-think of your cordless drill that goes and goes, then suddenly dies to need recharging. With AGM batteries, you should have twice the amp/hr rating that you should use to get maximum life. So here's the difference in cost: 400amp/hr Lithium battery pack is $3,300. Using 4-Lifeline L16 will give 800amp/hr at about $2,200. Which would you use? Good Luck, TomC
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Have been reading up on AGM (not even considering wet batteries) vs Lithium batteries for my deep cycle house batteries. Now that the Lithium iron batteries are being used that have eliminated fire problems, I have been on AMSolar.com looking at both solar and batteries. With Lithium, you can use all the amp/hr rating and there isn't any degration of output until the very end-think of your cordless drill that goes and goes, then suddenly dies to need recharging. With AGM batteries, you should have twice the amp/hr rating that you should use to get maximum life. So here's the difference in cost: 400amp/hr Lithium battery pack is $3,300. Using 4-Lifeline L16 will give 800amp/hr at about $2,200. Which would you use? Good Luck, TomC
Hard call. There were some technical challenges with LI batteries not so long ago. Are we *sure* that it's a reliable, safe, long-lasting technology? I like advanced technology but I'm a little nervous being too close to the sharp end. Yeah, a hard call.
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Operational temp swings and mobile vibration damage potential may enter into it also. I also would shy away from the very sharp cutting edge stuff. Just me.
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Tom here is the link to Williams site for his Australian bus VP and has mega Liths and solar and explains it all. He is over on Scotts Board BGM pretty interesting stuff. They run everything on them and has lots of solar panels also. HTH
Dave5Cs
http://www.motorhomeconversion.com.au/rvenergy/ (http://www.motorhomeconversion.com.au/rvenergy/)
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Lithium batteries can only be discharged to 20% or the batteries can be damaged. Devices that use lithium batteries have a chip or something that shuts off the battery when it gets to 20%. That is why power tools with lithium batteries cut off abruptly in many cases.
Power tools have had lithium batteries for close to 10 years with few issues. I can't imagine an RV is harder on batteries than power tools are.
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I would probably wait on the lithium until there was more substantial road use information. The few times I have gotten excited about a new technology and tried to be an early adopter have had mixed results. Also, the 33% cost differential would be significant to me.
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I was watching the news seems like the lithium batteries in the hover boards are causing lots of fires and are banned by the airlines
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I know you don't like the wet batteries . . . . But -
2 8D's will get you 650 amp/hrs for $400.
The AGM & lithium are less maintenance -
So, the question is how much convenience do you want to afford?
Your coach, do what ever makes it more enjoyable for you. ;)
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Kyle-I know about the lack of maintenance required for AGM. My first set of 2-8D batteries from Lifeline (rated at 510amp/hrs total) lasted 7 years. In that 7 years I did nothing as far as maintenance to the batteries-not even clean the terminals since AGM batteries do not outgas (unless overcharged). I will never go back to a wet battery no matter how cheap that wet battery may be. Good Luck, TomC
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I got six or seven years out of a set of slightly used AGM batteries I got for $100 each. They were not a standard size that weighed 100 pounds each and I think were about 100 AH. They were in a very warm area on a trip in 2013 and I think that killed them. They could no longer keep the bus running overnight after that.
I got a free set of AGM batteries this year that I hope will last at least a few years. The batteries were in telecom service and the telecom was just going to scrap them. The equipment was being decommissioned and the batteries still have some life in them. The telco wasn't going to put old batteries in a new installation.
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After Clifford's mess this summer...besure that there is adequate cooling and air circulation... >:(
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Technomadia has a really good blog about their lithium batteries after one year in service. You might want to read it before deciding. It seems they do have a short life expectancy.
Don and Cary
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Check out the Technomads website for a series of articles on Lithium batteries for the most up-to-date information. www.technomadia.com/lithium (http://www.technomadia.com/lithium)
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I wonder if the lithium batteries can be left to just sit over the winter with no charging? It gets way below 32F here and I don't heat my bus over the winter.
It is unlikely I would ever get lithium batteries, but maybe if the price comes down significantly. I would probably go with two 8D AGMs if I needed batteries today and just run my generator more often.
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Aren't they still having trouble with the Lithium batteries on the Boeing with thermal runaway. There was a Jet from Japan grounded at Phoenix last week from a Lithium battery fire according to the news
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I couldn't find anything about another Boeing jet having battery issues online.
I am not worried about fires with lithium batteries personally. The vast majority of us have at least one lithium battery that we carry around all the time in our phones. If you have a laptop or tablet there is a another lithium battery. Those of us on this forum likely have lithium batteries in our cordless tools too. I happen to have six lithium batteries for cordless tools.
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Telephones and tool are on a lot smaller scale,my old Hp laptop would get so hot you could not hold it. The Lithium battery probably adds to global warming and we are not aware off it ;D . I believe the technology will improve in the coming years
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As for the excessive heat concern & comparing a cell phone battery to a coach house battery bank-
A cell phone has about 3 Ah worth of battery -
A coach battery bank will have at least 10 times that if not 20+ times that size.
In a mass grouping that large, I'm guessing something more than passive cooling will be required to prevent uncontrolled temperature rise.
As much as I like the light weight lithium batteries - - I'm waiting for more field data AND the cost to come down to a more reasonable level.
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Seems like a lot more safety issues coming to light with lithium batteries everyday. I keep one eye on the lithium stuff, but sleep better at night with AGM. I like the no off-gassing and low maintenance (water) part of AGM's, a little longer life than standard wet cells, and mid cost factor. I guess the thing that keeps me up at night is the proper charging voltage factor for each type. Get it right and all is well. Get it wrong and s--t happens. Keep the smoke inside. Gerry H
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Seems like a lot more safety issues coming to light with lithium batteries everyday. I keep one eye on the lithium stuff, but sleep better at night with AGM. I like the no off-gassing and low maintenance (water) part of AGM's, a little longer life than standard wet cells, and mid cost factor. I guess the thing that keeps me up at night is the proper charging voltage factor for each type. Get it right and all is well. Get it wrong and s--t happens. Keep the smoke inside. Gerry H
My inverters are 3 stage charging and were set right Lifeline check it,they came to the conclusion with the AZ heat the batteries charging and no space between the batteries installed in a well vented area for air movement the batteries had a thermal runaway. That is their story and they are sticking to it
If revision D is not followed the warranty is void revision D dated 4-14-14 I am not the only person that has had a thermal runaway on AGM batteries
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I remember reading that the Lithium batteries that Boeing is using are old technology. Overheating is a problem but once the FAA approves a design it's almost impossible to get it changed so they have to use unsafe batteries when safer ones are available because the safer ones are not part of the design.
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I have a 1000 aHr LiPo bank installed in my Newell. They have been in service for over three years now. I am not trying to sell the technology just report from an actual user.
They are 600 lbs lighter than the 6 8d lifelines they replaced.
I set up the charger profile to charge them to 90% SOC and recharge at 20% SOC.
They operate at a slightly higher voltage than lead acid, voltage is not the best indicator of SOC (state of charge), and you should not treat them as drop ins in an existing system.
You do need a battery monitoring system with ability to disconnect via relay to protect the batteries from overcharge or over discharge. The BMS is independent of the charger/inverter setup.
You will need to think about your charging scheme if using the engine alternator to charge them since they don't play well with the lead acid chassis batteries due to the slightly different voltages. And the LiPos will accept an insane amount of current from the alternator.
As you search the inter web for the pioneers who have installed them in motor homes you will see a pattern in their posts. First, a lot of information about the setup, pricing, and initial performance. Then you will see some frequent updates. Then infrequent updates. Why? Cause they simply work very well.
I didn't get so OCD that I performed capacity tests. I simply looked at it from a real world use perspective. The 6 8d AGMs would not run the elec fridge and aqua hot system through the night if camping in cold weather. The LiPo system will run the fridge and aqua hot for two days plus the microwave and tv before I run the gennie for charging. The comment that technomadia made about capacity loss had some uncertainty about the accuracy of the results and some potential assignable causes so I don't think that one comment should be construed as the last word on long term capacity.
I want to emphasize that LiPO set ups are not drop ins for lead acid. One should educate themselves on proper system, especially charger settings, before installing. Also, the use of LiPo in motor home applications is so moderate compared to the car/marine/off grid world that some of the concerns such as cell imbalance are not real problems in our use.
In the end I did not install them because they are cheaper based on usable amp hours. I did not install them because they saved 600 lbs or freed up half of the battery bay. I did not install them because they were less worry than AGMs. I installed them because I could go for days off grid with a energy hog coach without having to run the gennie.
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I have 4 good old 6V golf cart batts for a house bank. Relatively cheap I realize now after reading this thread. Top up the water in them once in a while. No big deal. Run the genny a couple of hours a day when dry camping this time of year. I don't mind. In the summer, the solar panels keep up to the demand most of the time. I don't see any compelling reason to change anything.
JC
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Hi Tom & All, interesting article in January's Motorhome magazine by Ken Freund, Hands on Hotline, about lithium-cobalt-oxide vs newer litium iron phosphate batteries. lvmci...