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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on May 03, 2016, 05:00:35 PM
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What is the answer?
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Gary, we went to Florida and back this winter, (after seeing you at the dam rally in Nov), towing the VW Jetta on a car dolly. It works but it is a PIA. The dolly broke twice and we had to get it welded near Houston, and again in Alabama. Then when you get somewhere, you have to unhook everything and put the trailer somewhere, which actually wasn't a problem. We had to get tires for the trailer in Del Rio TX. None of it is a huge problem, but towing something 4 down would be so much simpler and easier. We have a Suzuki Tracker that I have to finish prepping for next winter's trip.
JC
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I tried the trailer route in 2000 they are a real pain dealing with parking,unloading,tie downs,ramps, weight and maintenance I bought us a Jeep and never looked back and I sure didn't miss the trailer and the electric brakes.Towing 4 down a vehicle will follow the same tracks as the vehicle doing the towing also a trailer won't,only problem you run into with a tow bar is backing up
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I would think the answer depends on how you plan to use your rig.
If you travel to a single destination & stay there long enough, dealing with parking the trailer may not be much of a problem.
An enclosed trailer would provide storage options also.
I considered a trailer, but for my planned usage, a flat towed 4x4 pickup truck seems to be the best option. The effort required to deal with the trailer soon convinced me that the tow bars were a much better idea. ;D
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I have towed a Series Land Rover, which is very handy to tow because I have unlocking hubs on all four wheels, but backing up any distance (without someone in the vehicle steering) is difficult. I also have used a tow dolly, which works out for front wheel drive cars nicely, but again, backing up is not handy. A open or enclosed trailer allows you to back up with precision, and for any distance you can handle. That gives you more options for parking, instead of seeking out pull-through spots all the time.
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Have duel trailer hitch for centered tow dolly or trailer, and Jones offset for 4 down. Either of the three takes me about the same time and energy... rdw
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Toad. Unhook the bar and lights and go. Reverse and 4 or 5 minutes you're good to go the other way. Tow a 2014 Ford Super Crew 4x4 now. Had a 2011 Ford Edge 2 wheel drive before this one. Both fast and easy.
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;D ;D ;D I am still wondering why Gary needs a tow bar or a trailer all I ever see him riding around is a electric bicycle it could be he bought a 3 wheeler
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I have my Mercedes 300 Turbodiesel modified for 4 down towing. It tows well except you can't back up with it. On my truck I solved that by carrying my car (small car like Toyota Yaris) inside instead. Now I have room to tow a Ranger Tug 23. Good Luck, TomC
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4 down for sure! My rabbit pickup so easy . Quick connect literally seconds and im unhooked
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Toad...Suzuki 2 door Vitara 4wd. Also I can tow the coach home if it breaks down, or gets stuck.
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I have towed 2 trucks 4 down and now use a light aluminum car float trailer . after 1 or 2 trips with it you get fast at loading and unloading and it tows way better then 4 down + I can back up and I have brakes on the trailer . yes you need a place to put it and I use it for other things as well
dave
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4-down, hands down.
I've towed a vehicle probably 75K miles with my bus; 3 Explorers and a Ranger. With the later Explorers and the Ranger, I had the neutral shift kit
installed to shift the transfer case into neutral for towing.
I wired diodes into the taillights and mounted a 6 prong trailer connector on the front. Generally, I can hook up and be ready to roll in under 5 minutes.
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Another advantage of towing 4 down is (heaven forbid) you can push the bus in an emergency.
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Another advantage of towing 4 down is (heaven forbid) you can push the bus in an emergency.
LOL a Jeep is handy for that BTDT
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hi Gary, stayed at Oak Creek in Sedona, with a trailer, the place I had to park the bike trailer was about 400ft away. lvmci...
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I also concur 4 down by far. I had a breakdown once and had to go back for the car dolly as of coarse the car on the dolly didn't have a hitch on the back LOL
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Nuther vote for 4 down. 1998 land cruise triple locked.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160504/c425fa0213382ddc50cfe556f1144fbb.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Definately 4 down I will never own another caddie, 2002 Tracker, manual transfer case.
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4 down easy peasey... ;D
Dave5Cs
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Another point of view that seems to be ignored. How far can you back up? Can you back up while turning? Can you make a U-turn backing up? All of these naggy questions MUST be addressed if one wants to safely drive your Bus Conversion.
Not that you might have too. But CAN you? Pull your personnel vehicle behind your Bus Conversion with a trailer. You MUST be able to safely back up. Most likely with a spotter, but sometimes in an emergency just backing up quite a ways all by yourself.
If this exceeds your driving ability or hits your comfort zone then perhaps you have no business driving your Bus Conversion at all. You must practice emergency backing. We did. You must be able to back up quite a ways very quickly. A necessity.
Folks, you may never need to in an emergency, but consider the results if you can not back up at all. Dollies may be death traps. Towing all wheels down also a death trap if you can not exhibit the ability to use the reverse gear or gears provided. Yep.
In our old long gone Crown Supercoach wanna be Bus Conversion we practiced boot legger back ups and reversing. We could run in H reverse at 25 mph. Then turn quickly. Perhaps overkill but we did also practice U-turns and figure eights.
If you insist on pulling your personal vehicle behind your Bus Conversion, get a proper and safe trailer and put your car on the trailer. Forget the dollies. Forget all wheels down toad options. With both you CAN NOT safely back up at all. Basic safety.
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Backing with a towed can be done , tow dolly is a wreck. More than once in 20 years 45' coach towing Jeep Wrangler. In emergency I've just put it in "R" and start creeping back, you feel the jeep go full lock steering keep going watching for it to show up in the mirrors, chase it as necessary. It's not pretty it scuffs the tires , put it in Drive your gone , out of whatever you got into.
More time less tire scuff get out start the jeep for power steering, tie the seatbelt thru the steering wheel & latch it. Reverse as necessary chase it like a trailer make turns park it like a pro. It backs like a spread axle trailer. I've done this many times zero damage to Jeep.
I know many say it can't be done , this isn't for everyone.
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You really have to watch where you go, knowing you cannot back up. And when you get stuck, which happens, you get out, unhook everything, turn around, and re-hitch. What would be an emergency that would require backing up immediately, with no time to unhook?
JC
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Guess I'm just a young punk, but in my 40+ years of driving, I've never had an instance where I had to do an emergency back up.
I did have to back up once after a dog ran out in front of my pickup and got himself hit. Evidently my front wheel stopped on his leg or tail. He was on the right front corner a yelping and howling and as I started to get out to see how bad he was hurt, a crowd was forming and they all started yelling at me to back up. I did. The dog took off.
I don't subscribe to the theory that pulling a vehicle 4-down puts you in any kind of danger by not being able to back up immediately.
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I do believe that if I can drag it behind me, it can be pushed out of the way in an emergency.
- Just like anything else that happens to be in the way ;D
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As I mentioned in my previous post, backing up with anything other than a trailer is a problem. If the combination is straight you can backup a short distance until the front wheels cross uneven ground or obstructions and the wheels begin to turn out of line. You are then forcing the vehicle back with the wheels severely cocked wasting good rubber and putting stress on the wheels that can bend them or dismount the tire if you go long enough and fast enough. If you are turning as well, the vehicle can jacknife at a severe angle that can cause damage to both vehicles and the hitch. The front wheels of the towed vehicle are castored to run true when going forward, not in reverse. Sure it is convenient and easy to tow 4 wheels down, provided the driveline and transmission are not harmed from lack of lubrication, but if there is a need to back up for any reason there will be difficulty even if the steering wheel was secured. If someone was in the vehicle to keep the steering steady there would still be difficulty when making a turn. Having a vehicle on a trailer solves all the backing problems provided you are skilled at driving that combination, but then you might face length problems at campgrounds and have to store the trailer away from the site. If you are parking late at night in a truck stop and the only spaces left are back-ins between two tractor-trailers, only the trailer setup will get you in. (I am assuming that many of you are former or current tractor-trailer drivers and know exactly what I mean).
There is no simple answer to the question of which method is best, it depends on what you can do, what equipment you have, and how much inconvenience you can put up with. This is why some people have gone through the expense and trouble of putting cut-down vehicles in cargo bays, as well as motorcycles, mopeds, ATV's, etc. One fellow that was featured in Bus Conversions Magazine years ago had his bus modified to have the rear cap go up hydraulically, and ramps folding down to drive his Suzuki 4X4 up and in the back (I think it was an Eagle, if I remember correctly).
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I've backed up with a toad 4 down. Can't go far, but sometimes a couple of feet makes the difference. I've had my wife sit in the toad and steer while I back up. Works too.
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If you need to back up more than a little bit unhook and move toad. I would recommend to seriously consider a back up camera. When my father towed his Chevette, he had a bungie cord through the steering wheel. Could easily back up the 4104 with it attached a car length or two. Now with a 40 ft x 102, better have a camera at least. As far as which, the number I've seen over the years, would be about 50/50towed 4 down vs. trailer. Toters less than 2%. I've towed cars several times over the years with toters and it is a royal pita to back up more than acar length or two. Many corrections and this is with a pickup. Daughters/cars,but that's another story. Also having to unhook toter with car on it......
Plus, you have that pesky trailer to deal with when not towing.For a serious traveller putting on a lot of miles, then I'd seriously consider an enclosed trailer; you can carry extra items that way which you can keep better security over. I see more coaches with enclosed trailers than in years past, however who knows what they're hauling.
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We've towed 3 different vehicles 4 down and find it's the best way. Of all of the RV'ers we've seen on the road it's the most popular choice. Easy to hook up and unhook, no trailer or dolly to store or deal with and less to have to keep up with maintenance.
It really depends on your needs, with a trailer you can haul more stuff that you can't live without! ;D
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I've used each method from one sea to the other. A trailer is the simplest to use, but a pita to park and store and often exceeds the allotted camp space length. A dolly is less trouble to store but is a PITA to back up and often troublesome for other reasons--I had one that chipped off the Dots Dots between freeway lanes and chucked them into on coming traffic because the permanent ramps pivoted with the trailer ball. It was funny to see, but it sure pissed off the other drivers. I am towing 4 down now and with the help of the rear vision camera and my tongue pressed in my left cheek, I can back slowly as far as I need. I've had issues with surge brakes on car trailers and no brakes on dollys. For my 4 down toad I adapted a Brake Buddy to operate using the compressed air on my bus so I don't have to worry about the little 12 volt compressor in the Brake Buddy failing. Attaching and releasing the 4 down toad takes about 30 seconds--though I do have to stop every 100 miles or so to deal with lubrication issues with this particular toad. Jack
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Old Runt,
You can't back it up unless your tongue is pressed in your left cheek? Does it work in your right cheek or does it matter if you are backing up and turning left or right? :D
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I wanted to use a trailer so I could use any car for a toad. Then I started looking at what to do with the trailer at campgrounds. Around here, most of the places I have camped haven't had space available for a trailer at the campsite. There may have been space somewhere else, but I would have been worried if it would remain where I left it.
Palmetto cove is the only campground I've been to that having a trailer wouldn't be a problem.
I bought a 4x4 pickup truck that is factory approved for flat towing with no need to worry about lubrication issues. All I need to do is install an M&G brake system & the connection to the coach will be even easier!
Looks like there are options to fit almost any need.
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Or do it this way..
https://www.google.com/search?q=prevost+hauling+a+smart+car&oq=prevost+hauling+a+smart+car&aqs=chrome..69i57.13455j0j4&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#q=prevost+carrying+a+smart+car&imgrc=4od6lxA3b0LmZM%3A (https://www.google.com/search?q=prevost+hauling+a+smart+car&oq=prevost+hauling+a+smart+car&aqs=chrome..69i57.13455j0j4&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#q=prevost+carrying+a+smart+car&imgrc=4od6lxA3b0LmZM%3A)
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Jack
on my first 2 flat tow trucks all I had to do to just tow them with out any starting the trucks was re and re the transmission and rear end oil to synthetic oil . worked for years . but I like the way the trailer tows now with the truck on it
dave
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... though I do have to stop every 100 miles or so to deal with lubrication issues with this particular toad. Jack
VW, Jack?
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Nope. Geo Tracker 4x4 under a Morris Minor woody wagon.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/oltrunt/IMG_20160319_090226_zpsysrnkgex.jpg)
Oops! That's Wifey's car.
This is the toad.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/oltrunt/IMG_20160304_164323_zps0abfuac2.jpg)
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I tow 4-down. Usually a Geo Tracker 4wd, but for a few years we towed a Chev Trailblazer.
Once, the receiver hitch on the bus started to tear at a weld......I noticed the change in the back-up/rearview monitor. It seemed there was less bumper visible at the bottom of the monitor, so it was worth a look. I just about crapped when I saw the receiver had torn from the crossbar and was held on by very little metal. A visit from a mobile welder and about 40 minutes of work, plus 1 extra 2x2 square tube as 'insurance' and we were on the way. It could have been way worse. I do have and use the air cylinder style toad brake, and it is also equipped with a breakaway device. If this had been a trailer, with a bunch of tongue weight, I doubt that I would have noticed the problem in time.
Also, after refueling the coach at a busy truck stop a couple of years ago, the bus refused to re-start. I had the wife unit jump in the toad and pull the bus back out of the fuel island, then push it behind the station into a vacant area. Seems a starter solenoid wire connector had pulled apart ( courtesy of a rogue tumbleweed ). A quick repair and we were on the way.
You can't do that with a car on a dolly.
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We have towed both ways, trailer and toad. We prefer toad on the ground and also prefer 4X4. We have been places with our 4104 that most people wouldn't take such a vehicle. The toad on the ground has come in handy for getting us up or out of a tight, including being stuck. That would be hard if it were on a trailer. Our favorite was a 77 CJ-5 Golden Eagle jeep with a HP V-8. We were stopped by a Texas Highway Patrol while pushing the out of fuel bus down the interstate @ 4o mph in 4 wheel drive. The officer was citing us for towing a vehicle with a passenger in the toad. When I told him that she was pushing me to a fuel station he laid his hand on his pistol. I told him to feel the heat from the engines and tell me what he thought. When he realized we were telling the truth, he escorted us. Yes we like our 4X4 toad on it's four tires. That's one of the reasons, there's a lot more... :-)
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Now that is quite an event, it's a shame there was no video. If you went more than eleven miles you broke Clifford's record. I feel inadequate, my Land Rover only pushed me a quarter mile, but then I was doing all the driving of both vehicles. The trooper must have thought you were a wise guy and toyed with the idea of putting you out of action. What a rough state.
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Our first experience with a toad was 4 down. It worked okay. At one point though, both of our cars could not be pulled that way. No problem-- I bought a dolly. I found it to be a nuisance compared to what I was used to. We even got into one situation that, in retrospect, was comical but was not so at the time. The bus could not make a grade on a dirt road pulling the weight. It was easy to get the car off the dolly and for my wife to back it down the hill. The dolly was not so easy. I had to unhook it, and guide it down the hill by hand by zigzagging into the berm on each side of the road to slow it down. After that, no more dolly.
There are lots of Jeep Cherokees around that tow 4 down without any restrictions. Ours is a '99. I recently bought an '02 Grand Cherokee to upgrade the comfort factor but can't bring myself to get rid of it the Cherokee. It's set up to be towed, so I'll just continue to use it for that.
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The CJ Jeep is long gone, we now tow an 05 Sierra Quadrasteer 4X4. Its a little heavy at 6000+# but a nice ride when we venture away from the coach, including over nighting in it. Got a camper shell on it. After 1000s of miles with out a wash, you can't tell it's white but it gets a great lube job! :-\
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One distinct advantage of having a trailer vs. a Toad is that you put less mileage on your car thereby not causing extra depreciation. Has anyone ever considered this issue or don't we have any bean counters driving buses. :-)
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With electronic speedos, you might just be able to disconnect the battery.
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With the ign switch in the unlocked - off position, the electronic speedometers don't add mileage to the odometer.
From the numbers I looked at, the depreciation wasn't much different than the cost of a decent trailer.
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One distinct advantage of having a trailer vs. a Toad is that you put less mileage on your car thereby not causing extra depreciation. Has anyone ever considered this issue or don't we have any bean counters driving buses. :-)
There is no depreciation because there is no mileage increase. At least not with modern toads.
You do have to factor the extra mileage into maintenance on the toad. We just put a new set of tires on the Ranger. I had 59K on them according
to the speedometer, but figure I had at least another 12K on them from towing.
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Another advantage of an enclosed trailer is that if you travel thru any snow, sand, sleet, salt, hail, or other storms or just pouring rain it keeps your car clean rather than covering it with the mess kicked up from the rear tires of the bus. I have seen some pretty dirty cars and broken windshields as a result of towing. Does anyone using an enclosed trailer feel this advantage is worth the extra expense and inconvenience?
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In that kind of weather, I stay home. Yes, if you drive in those conditions, then a trailer makes sense.
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One distinct advantage of having a trailer vs. a Toad is that you put less mileage on your car thereby not causing extra depreciation. Has anyone ever considered this issue or don't we have any bean counters driving buses.
My toad is so old, depreciation isn't an issue anymore. I'm sure it's the same for many others, too.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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My toad is so old, depreciation isn't an issue anymore. I'm sure it's the same for many others, too.
My toad is so old, I've forgotten what depreciation is! No, wait a minute, that's *me* that's so old ...
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Depreciation would only apply to commercial business use, which would require CDL's and DOT inspections complicating our lives. We are better off with our old buses and toads.
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Depreciation would only apply to commercial business use, which would require CDL's and DOT inspections complicating our lives. We are better off with our old buses and toads.
Not the kind of depreciation I was thinking about. I was thinking he meant that higher miles means lower resale value . . . .
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Yes, that is correct. More miles means more wear and tear and every mile devalues your vehicle whether it is commercial or privately owned. The last IRS value I heard was 58 cents per mile, but it is probably higher now.
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Our vehicles are so old that the traditional depreciation rates do not apply. The value of most running buses have bottomed out to a market value based on condition and visual appeal. The value of a well-maintained coach could remain essentially the same for years, changed only by inflation, the general condition of the economy, and the price of diesel fuel. Our buses defy the normal schedules because they last so long. It is sort like buildings that an accountant might pronounce as having a useful life of 40 years and bases the depreciation schedule on that assumption when there are many buildings that last well over 100 years. If no maintenance occurs on a bus it will lose value alright, but what about the busnuts that repower with new engines and transmissions? Their value will appreciate.
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This thread is about Toads, not buses. Toads depreciate unless their depreciation value has run out.
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Nope, my 4X4 toad is so old (and rare) that the value is going up.
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Nope, my 4X4 toad is so old (and rare) that the value is going up.
Yeah, my TDI wagon (399,825 miles this AM) has gone up 1000% in value in the past year! I can prove it mathematically -- $0 X 1000% is $0!
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Depreciation of the toad only makes some sense if you have a pretty new vehicle. Although, since all of them probably have electronic odometers, towed mileage would not even show. I paid 2500 for our '99 Cherokee and Kelly lists its private party value, taking into account mileage and condition, as 2500. It only has 206,000 miles on it, but even if the towed mileage showed on the odometer, which it doesn't, I doubt it would make an real difference. Certainly, to be fair to the potential buyer, one should disclose that it was used as a toad. I think that that could even add value to it since it is ready to go in the same capacity.
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What if I towed it backwards half of the time? Would that zero out the depreciation? Or if I towed it backwards all of the time, would it increase in value? Any Bean Counters out there?
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1998 Jeep Wrangler TJ so no don't really care. Most wreaking yards and parts places have every part that breaks or you need to keep them going to include many Tubs or bodies, tops, hoods, fenders, engines, tranny's etc for any year. It holds is price and has actually gone up since I bought it last year. New cars are just for looks and make banks money. Life is good!... 8)
Dave
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When we pull our Ranger it's normally on a trailer, but we have used a dolly changed back tires, and pulled the drive shaft when going to venues that have limited space.. Our toad is normally much more important than the bus. rdw
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What if I towed it backwards half of the time? Would that zero out the depreciation? Or if I towed it backwards all of the time, would it increase in value? Any Bean Counters out there?
I think you would have to put it backwards in a covered trailer all the time and keep going until the value goes up. Say, aren't you wandering off your own thread? ;D