BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: jav9956 on May 10, 2016, 01:59:12 PM
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Pretty awesome bus, would make for an interesting conversion!
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/rvs/5571272841.html (https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/rvs/5571272841.html)
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It would be spacious, but it would also be more unstable in use on the road. Many people have died in accidents when these have flopped over in Europe (Google Neoplan accidents). If this one is actually 14' high it would be an oversize vehicle (13' 6" is usually the limit without a permit). Parts might be more difficult to get for the body, Neoplan shut down the Colorado plant. Massive and different, but not so awesome to own and run in a crosswind.
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It would be spacious, but it would also be more unstable in use on the road. Many people have died in accidents when these have flopped over in Europe (Google Neoplan accidents). If this one is actually 14' high it would be an oversize vehicle (13' 6" is usually the limit without a permit). Parts might be more difficult to get for the body, Neoplan shut down the Colorado plant. Massive and different, but not so awesome to own and run in a crosswind.
Correct overall, but a bit of detail. 14' is the legal limit in about 15 western states (and maybe a couple of Canadian provinces); 13'6" is the height limit in almost all the others. I wouldn't want a bus that was only legal in a third of the continent but those are the details. And, yes, lack of parts and service support is a serious PITA.
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As the owner and long-time operator of a close sibling to this coach just a tad less high, I feel compelled to respond to this:
It would be spacious, but it would also be more unstable in use on the road.
"More unstable" than what? An Eagle? because I can tell you on a per-unit basis, far more Eagles have been involved in fatal accidents than Neoplan double-deckers. The UK, where double-deck buses are perhaps most common, did extensive testing on this very model to ensure it met their strict standards.
(http://cdn.ipernity.com/127/41/51/17124151.5a47aacf.640.jpg?r2)
Tilt-testing a different model double-decker.
That being said, with any high-floor coach, you need to be careful in the conversion process not to put too much weight up high. The heavy stuff has to go on the lower level, and the lighter stuff up top. You need to weigh *everything* you put on board and constantly re-do your CG calculation to ensure the metacentric height stays within limits.
Many people have died in accidents when these have flopped over in Europe (Google Neoplan accidents).
No more so than any other type of coach. Rollover accidents generally come from external circumstances such as one set of wheels leaving the pavement, or uncontrolled skids into fixed obstacles. If your load is properly balanced between the levels, the propensity to roll on a double-decker is really no greater than that for any high-floor coach (such as a Prevost H3).
If this one is actually 14' high it would be an oversize vehicle (13' 6" is usually the limit without a permit).
The LA Olympic Skyliners were 13'6" in normal suspension. That said, your statement is incorrect -- statutory height varies by state, there is no single number for the entire country. Many states allow 14' height on some or all roads. Yes, there are also states with a 13'6" statutory height; whether or not over-dimensional permits are required in those states depends on many factors. In California, where this bus is located and listed for sale, the statutory height is 14' and so it is not overdimensional there.
Parts might be more difficult to get for the body, Neoplan shut down the Colorado plant.
The LA Olympic Skyliners, like my own Spaceliner, were built in Germany and the status of the Lamar plant was never a factor -- Lamar did not make parts for German-built coaches. In fact, Lamar had to import many parts, for example, window glass, even for some models made in the US.
Also to be clear "Neoplan" did not shut down a Colorado plant. The Colorado operation was a separate, unrelated company that simply licensed the Neoplan name and designs. They went spectacularly bankrupt, due to mismanagement. The actual Neoplan corporation (now a subsidiary of MAN) was unaffected and had nothing to do with it (other than getting stiffed like every other creditor).
Massive and different, but not so awesome to own and run in a crosswind.
Well, my Neoplan is very nearly the same size as this one; the difference in body height being just 15" and all other dimensions being identical. I've driven the coach 153,000 miles in every conceivable condition. As a disaster responder, I deliberately drove into tropical-storm-force winds, and that's with three air conditioners, a deck, a sat dish, two awnings, and solar panels on the roof adding to the wind load. I never found driving in a crosswind any kind of challenge, and seldom needed more than two fingers on the steering wheel. I've driven everything from a motor scooter to a semitrailer and I put the Neoplans with their fully independent double-wishbone suspension very low on the difficulty scale, much closer to a Ford Econoline than to a Fleetwood Bounder. FWIW.
-Sean
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So nice to see Sean on the forum :) so I drove out east for a weekend recently and was reminded why I have a 12.5' tall coach....your neoplan would have to pick through the east coast carefully to avoid becoming a convertible :)
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All good information, but the tilt-test is missing a serious ingredient - passengers in every seat. How good would it do then, or are there metal weights on every seat we can not see? All of the Eagles, MCI's, GMC's, Prevost's and VanHools would do better. A 14 footer would definitely have trouble out east. Nice looking Land Rover on the right of the tilt table (similar to mine).
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Indeed an impressive monster.
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All good information, but the tilt-test is missing a serious ingredient - passengers in every seat. How good would it do then, or are there metal weights on every seat we can not see? All of the Eagles, MCI's, GMC's, Prevost's and VanHools would do better. A 14 footer would definitely have trouble out east. Nice looking Land Rover on the right of the tilt table (similar to mine).
Not metal weights but the test standard calls for weight in each seat. In practice, they use sandbags.
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Looks like Neoplan owners are sensitive about their height! ;D I am not convinced that they are as safe and stable as other coaches though, the following is an excerpt from Wikipedia: "In March 2003 near Nažidla in South Bohemian Region a Neoplan Skyliner overturned on Czech European route E55, killing nineteen people and one man died two years later due to the injuries sustained in the crash.[12] Thirty-four people were injured.[13] It has been the biggest bus accident in history of the Czech Republic.[14]
In May 2003 in France a Neoplan Skyliner overturned on a French highway, killing twenty-eight people.[15] A report by French investigators recommended that drivers of double-deck coaches should receive special training because of the vehicle's relative instability. A separate study, presented to the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe in the same year reported that high-sided coaches were much more likely to overturn in crashes than standard single-deck coaches. The German manufacturer added a safety system, known as electronic stability control, which brakes each wheel separately to prevent overturning in 2006.[16]
In January 2007 a Neoplan Skyliner operated by National Express Coaches overturned and crashed on the M25 motorway near Heathrow Airport, killing two passengers;[17] a third passenger died six-months later due to the injuries sustained in the crash.[18] The company temporarily withdrew all twelve Skyliners from service pending investigations[19][20] The crash was deemed to have been caused by travelling at excessive speed and the driver was charged with three counts of causing death by dangerous driving.[21] He was subsequently jailed for five years and banned from driving for three years.[22] No safety issues were found.[23] The electronic stability control system which had been introduced on new vehicles in 2006 was not used on this vehicle.[16]"
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Years ago when London Transport was testing the tip-over angle of their buses they found that their double-deckers such as the RTs and Routemasters had a lower CoG than their single-deckers, and could lean more before toppling over. They also performed no differently on their skidpan than single-deckers - it's impressive to watch a double-decker drifting!
Last month in Mexico I took a double-decker MAN bus operated by ETN from Aguascalientes to Mexico City, and it seemed no less stable in crosswinds than the MAN and Mercedes-Benz high-floor single-deckers that I also took. The driver did however slow down more than usual for tight curves, but I never had any sensation of excessive body roll. Admittedly, ETN's double-deckers have only 30 seats (some have only 25 - now that's legroom!), with all the heavy stuff below such as the two loos and the galley, but they subjectively seemed as safe to me as single-deckers.
There's also an unfinished Neoplan sitting in Premier Motorcoach's yard in Santa Ana CA just off the 55 freeway. It's been there for years, so perhaps that could be a bargain for someone?
John
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All good information, but the tilt-test is missing a serious ingredient - passengers in every seat. How good would it do then, or are there metal weights on every seat we can not see?
Yes, as already noted there are test weights in every seat to simulate pax load.
All of the Eagles, MCI's, GMC's, Prevost's and VanHools would do better.
Unless you've run the tests, you don't know that. An enormous amount of engineering goes into these.
So nice to see Sean on the forum :)
Thanks!
so I drove out east for a weekend recently and was reminded why I have a 12.5' tall coach....your neoplan would have to pick through the east coast carefully to avoid becoming a convertible :)
FWIW, we've spent a *lot* of time on the east coast -- it just wasn't a problem. Sure, there are roads that are off limits (e.g Saw Mill Parkway), but most that are off-limits to us are also off-limits to even 12.5' coaches. We're only another 6" (and I can drop to 12'3" from the driver seat with the flip of a switch). I think I can count on one hand the number of places I had to take a different route than, say, an MC-9.
...the following is an excerpt from Wikipedia: ...
Well, WikiPedia lists accident stats for many transports. So, for example, look at the entry for the Boeing 747. That tells you *nothing* about how the rate compares to other transports. Does the fact that the 747 has been involved in 60 hull-loss incidents resulting in over 3,700 fatalities mean it is somehow less safe than similar planes? Surely it's less safe than Neoplan double-deckers, because on a per-unit basis, far more of them have been lost to accidents. Of course that's a ridiculous claim, as is your pointing to a very small handful of incidents documented on a user-contributed web site as some kind of "evidence" of safety problems. I can assure you that similar numbers of Eagles and MCIs have been involved in fatal collisions/allisions.
Note that most North American coaches don't show any accident stats at all in WikiPedia, not because they don't have accidents, but because unlike most of Europe, statistics are hard to come by.
Am I sensitive? You bet. I have thousands of hours of experience behind the wheel of these coaches. I am probably one of the top ten experts on Neoplan coaches in the United States, so much so that Neopart actively refers people to me with questions. And at this very minute I am trying to sell my bus. Yet you come on here and tell people, with no equivocation, that they are dangerous and hard to handle in a crosswind. Based on zero experience, as far as I can tell -- none, nada, zip -- just a small amount of anecdotal evidence that you got from the Internet, where everything you read is, of course, authoritative.
You're entitled to your opinion. But, with all due respect, telling other people that, essentially, my bus is dangerous and difficult to drive is inflammatory, and I'm not going to let it stand unchallenged.
-Sean
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For those more recently arrived to the hobby...
The two big busnut Boards have a strong tradition of informed content.
Those pesky things our school teachers tried to teach us in school about authoritative sources, statistical significance, sample error and the like...
Well, many of us try our best to show some respect to these precepts.
That is why there continues to be top notch, experienced contributors on these Boards, as their typing does not go wasted.
That is far from the case in much of the rest of the internet...
You can be assured that if there is, or was, a brand or model of double decker that was not particularly roadworthy, we would already know, and there would already be ample posts on both Boards documenting it.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Neoplans make simply awesome Fulltime coaches. A guy came to the Arcadia rally with one that was simply unreal. His door opened automatically by voice recognition
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Well Sean, you are a little riled, but no one is attacking your bus in particular. I made comments doubting the "awesomeness" of a bus in California. The entry quoted in Wikipedia is fully documented as to the sources of the information in true academic style. As far as my experience with large vehicles goes, I have been driving trucks, tractor trailers, and buses since 1964, and have over three million miles experience. The larger the area of the side of a truck or bus is, the greater the chance that crosswinds will affect it. Any crosswind above 50 mph can have unsettling effects on a truck or bus. Tractor trailers that are 13'6" high have been blown over; your Neoplan would not be immune to these forces. With a higher center of gravity and a broader profile, the double-decker style of bus has to be used with more caution. If there was no problem compared to other buses, why did Neoplan introduce an electronic stability control system in 2006?
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My coach has voice recognition also. All I have to say is "wife, open the damn door!" works most of the time.
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My coach has voice recognition also. All I have to say is "wife, open the damn door!" works most of the time.
Ha! Don't let her see that; you don't want the "voice recognition" to be in jeopardy. ;D
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I have extensively looked at Sean's bus (hi Sean! Hope you're floating!) and can say that it is the biggest 40ft'r you could ever have. The combination of 40ft of living space, an 8V-92TA and Allison; 3 roof top A/C's plus engine driven A/C, Webasto heating; and the fact that Sean is an electrical engineer with his wiring prowess; this coach would be awesome for anyone to have. And I think they've proven that it is a good full timer. The only negative I can think of is the Neoplan suspension parts. But-I know from witnessing the work myself (he did suspension rebuild at Los Angeles Freightliner-a whole story in itself) having the front end rebuilt that you'll probably be suspension problem free for many years. And his leveling system using linear actuators is simply genius. Good Luck, TomC
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Bus stability is relative and sometimes has little to do with the height of the coach. It may be my imagination, or just the years stealing my memory away but in the New York, NJ area, there seemed to be a lot more rollover accidents with MC9s than there were with the GM New Look suburbans that they replaced. I mentioned that to a friend who happened to be veteran New Jersey Transit bus operator. He later demonstrated for me how the early MC9s began to lean when the wheels were turned - even when the bus was standing still!
- Seaton
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Great to see Sean on here again, fighting the corner of Euro double-deckers in general and Neoplans in particular. And teaching me a new word - 'allisions' - "The striking of a vessel against a fixed object". Good stuff! :)
By the way, my own all-time favourite bus is the Neoplan Jumbocruiser, which is an articulated double-decker (like an H5-60 but, dare I say, better), designed specifically to offer the same capacity and service of certain holiday airliner routes. There was a major accident involving one of those too, which was also blamed on 'instability' - but after rigorous investigations (and no-one does such things more rigorously than the Germans) their analysis showed that there was nothing wrong with the design of the vehicle - but that the regular bus drivers required more training to properly handle them.
Jeremy
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Sean Good to see you on here. Congrats on your Bus sell saw it closed. Someone got a great deal at that price. The wife loves following Louis' new blog and I follow your sea bound travels. 8)
Dave5Cs