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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: PNWorBUST72 on March 04, 2018, 06:51:55 AM
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So I wanted to put this down here so I can get some feedback.
I am thinking something along this lines:
1. Glue in a true radiant barrier as the first layer, right against the outer skin on the roof, going over the metal ceiling ribs. Then fill in the space from that to the top of the ribs with rigid foam. I would then add furring strips along the ribs to get another 1/4-1/2 of foil lined rigid, with the foil facing in. I might add additional furring strips to get more places to anchor the ceiling. For now, the wife wants painted luan, I am trying to get her to go with tongue and groove stained a light cedar type color.
Thoughts on the general concept? What type of radiant material should I use, or the glue for it?
I am 6ft so I can loose an inch on the ceiling, if I dont go crazy on the floor. I might be adding a MLV layer to the floor once I can confirm installation details of the product.
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I did much simpler method. I screwed 1x2 fir strips length wise at 16" widths-mainly to have a base to screw my 1/8" plywood to the ceiling (1/8" is thin enough to bend to the contour of the ceiling). I then had the entire bus spray foamed to the level of the 1x2" strips. Gave me 2.25" of foam insulation. Yes it cost some money to have done, but it is the best and spray foaming is a nasty, messy job. Highly recommend you find a professional that has a mobile setup to come to you. Good Luck, TomC
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That is the best way to do it. However, if you are on a tight budget and have the time, you can cut and fit polyurethane sheets to ceiling. Cutting smaller pieces as necessary to fill in curves,etc. Then use spray foam in cans to fill any gaps. Use a good quality breathing mask and goggles for protection from the dust you create. Good exhaust ventilation beneficial. Do this in cooler weather. A real pain in hot weather. 🔥
Having it spray foamed is really the best way to do it. You will need some more particular info from those that did or had it done if you decide to go this way.
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I think the poster is mostly asking about the addition of radiant insulation rather than the use of foam - I'd be interested to hear knowledgeable opinion on this as well as I've never really been able to get my head around the merits (if there really are any) of radiant insulation
Jeremy
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Shading the roof with solar panels is likely more impactful than any radiant material available to a busnut?
More cost justification to the War Department for the solar install?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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sm foam board with a high r value is much better then any reflective barrier but I have used lots of this more as a vapor shield with the hope of some insulation value
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-with-Staple-Tab-ST48100/202851852 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-with-Staple-Tab-ST48100/202851852)
on the M C I I used 3/4 " plywood ripped down to 2 " wide strips to build up ( or down ) from the ceiling at 12 " spacing side to side for more spray foam insulation and to stop the thermal transfer of condensation . 3 strips deep at the centre and out 2 ' on each side from that to get r 28 in the middle of the ceiling and r 21 near the side walls to try to keep the height from the floor . It made it a lot easier to put up the 1/4 "plywood on the ceiling I used the bubble foil on the floor under the laminate flooring instead of the crappy foam .
dave
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According to the info here, you'll be lucky to get an R value of 3?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-with-Staple-Tab-ST48100/202851852 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-with-Staple-Tab-ST48100/202851852)
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A good professional spray foam job is probably close to $1k for a 40ft bus no? I do love the idea though...
Unless someone can say, with personal experience that the radiant stuff works and is work the effort, then I would probably just compare pricing for the spray foam vs self installing the rigid stuff.
I like the idea of the 3/4 plywood strips, I need to plan that out.
Thanks all for the input, solar is coming. :)
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Here's a guy that lives in a skoolie with his wife and (many) kids. He did the spray foam himself on the new bus they're converting. Doesn't look that difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmtnySaDFS0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmtnySaDFS0)
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A good close cell hot spray foam will run you close to 3 grand for a 40 ft bus fwiw and that is some nasty stuff
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If you have ever used spray foam in a can, then you know how much time it takes to get consistency in thickness. It is either too little or too much since it keeps expanding for a period of time.Since it is your first conversion on an older bus, just cut and fit foam sheet and add furring strips as needed. After two of three conversion jobs, having a professional do it will seem like a better deal in time savings. BTW,Hot foam will help quiet coach too.
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Just watched the YouTube of the do-it-yourself. One-he didn't spray it thick enough. It look like it expanded to maybe 3/4". Also he was going around the metal posts-another spot for heat/cold transfer.
My method of installing 1x2 fir strips lengthwise over the whole bus makes certain all metal is covered by either foam or minimum 3/4" wood. 2.25" spray foam is almost the thickness of what is used in a refrigerated commercial trailer.
I helped one of the ice cream manufacturers spec out their 28ft set of double trailers that was going from L.A. to Las Vegas year round. We ended up requesting 5" spray foamed walls so to keep -10 possible in 120 weather. Each 28ft trailer had the same refer unit that a 53ft'r had. I know this is extreme-just showing how much spray foam is needed. So my 2.25" is not excessive. Good Luck, TomC
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Besides the cost, application was the other concern with spray foam, that guy seemed like he justed wanted to finish rather then get it right. IDK...anyone else have a youtube of spray foaming a bus?
At the TigerFoam website I think I need the fast acting $600 set.
https://tigerfoam.com/sprayfoaminsulation/order-products/spray-foam-kits/tiger-foam-fast-rise-formula-600-board-foot-kit/
I think once I figure out the furring strips and how I want to lay them out, I will work out a 3 stage "package" if I dont go DIY spray foam:
1. Maybe .5in thin foil faced- facing out
2. think rigid to fill the gap - whatever the difference is
3. .5in thin foil faced-facing in
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Well - I'll share my DIY experience for reference. I spent well over 2K on the DIY home depot tanks to do the bus initially. I spray foamed every hole I could find, I got to the ceiling and started on that and I could not give away cash fast enough to cover the whole ceiling as I wanted. I had screwed 1x1 strips to the ribs on the ceiling to make room for wiring and insulation. After I was sick of donning on the astronaut suit and cleaning the HUGE mess, I called the mobile spray foam man. He charged about another 2K to finish the job. He said it would have almost cost the same if I had not done any previous insulating.. My advice is to save yourself the headache if you plan on spray foam... just call the professional as it is much denser and more consistent. And my opinion is the DIY stuff is a waste of time for a large space. It works great for filling in the small spaces but not for large panels. I find that the most expensive part of every project is the education. Theory is cheap (college) by comparison.
SolarDude
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I appreciate you sharing your experience, painful as it may be. Some jobs are best for a professional to do. Especially knowing exactly how much to apply without excessive waste. I can see what a pita it can be just using the spray foam in cans.
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I bought my bus partially converted. It had some spray foam applied before I got it. I bought a some spray foam kits and did some more myself. THEN I hired the pro. Just do that first. Trimming is kind of a project in itself. If you can find someone who will spray and trim do that. The pro I hired did it on a weekend. He actually did sprayfoam roofing.
HTH
Melbo
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I had mine Spray Foam Insulated last august, I had a hard time finding anyone that would do it, I thought I would have to do it myself and started pricing out the kits.
I did a Spray Foam search on Craigs List and found Elite Foam a local independent guy.
He came over Measured the bus and gave me an extremely reasonable Quote for Closed Cell foam.
Made an appointment he showed up when he said he would, did an excellent job spraying, Knew his equipment and was able to spray it so it expanded to an exacting thickness so as not to waste the foam and keep the triming to a minimum, Had a trailer with large tanks of the product the heaters, a huge Compressor, Lots of hose and a mixing application Gun, Finished in a couple hours, then trimmed everything and cleaned it all up, I was so impressed with the job I tipped them $100.
He is based out of St Petersburg FL, not sure if he would come to Jacksonville, If you want to drive down, I am sure we could find room at the shop for him to insulate your Bus.
My conversion is not far enough along to say how efficient the insulating properties are, but I can tell you that it did become significantly cooler working inside the bus after it was insulated.
(http://www.peterbylt.com/MCI96A3/foammasking.jpg)
(http://www.peterbylt.com/MCI96A3/foamfront.jpg)
Peter
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I have no doubt that spray-foaming is the best way to do it but for me it would have been totally impractical because there has never been a point when the whole bus was at a stage where it was ready for insulation. I've been working in different parts of the bus at different times and have been insulating as I go using foam sheets/blocks and aerosol expanding foam, but only after walls and bulkheads have been installed, wiring conduits and plumbing pipework run, and all the necessary bracketry from which cabinets etc will hang have been welded to the wall and ceiling ribs.
I've seen lots of photos of fully-foamed bus shells and I always think "But THEN what do you do?" Specifically, how to you mount all the interior walls and furniture to the metalwork of the bus after you've buried it all in foam? I know people talk about running these lightweight furring strips along the length of the body, and I'm sure those are fine for mounting panel work, but surely you don't hang walls and heavy furniture off those?
A single homogenous application of spray foam is undoubtedly better though than trying to separately attach lots of individual pieces - I expect the ideal approach would be to use multiple smaller DIY spray kits at different times over a period of weeks/months/years as you get each area of the bus to that stage in the conversion - but that would also be the most expensive way of doing it, and doing all the preparations each time would be a lot of hassle.
Jeremy
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I agree, get all your wiring ran and some extra conduit to run the length of the bus before you you spray it. I used a "Foam it green" kit online for ~$600 and it covered the entire inside just fine and took about an hour taking my time. That CL guy sounds legit to, then you don't have to sweat in a suit, but I like to play in the dirt. I feel you are more appreciative when you DIY!
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Peter-good job-but-you still have the metal supports exposed. That's why I installed the 1x2 fir strips horizontally to cover everything. 2.25" insulation is not really that much when you consider a ice cream trailer has 5". Good Luck, TomC
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All the metal ceiling ribs were sheathed in PVC Planking before attaching the ePVC ceiling panels.
The Planking and the epvc panels are made from an expanded PVC which is an extruded closed cell PVC foam and has a certain R value.
(http://www.peterbylt.com/MCI96A3/Ceiling6.jpg)
(http://www.peterbylt.com/MCI96A3/Ceiling3.jpg)
Peter
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This is what 2K in Home Depot + 2K in professional services will get you.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think you would want the foam completely flush with the ribs. Adding slightly more foam and shaving off the excess to make it flush with no recesses.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think you would want the foam completely flush with the ribs. Adding slightly more foam and shaving off the excess to make it flush with no recesses.
Absolutely, they both got shorted on insulation. It would be better to call it a sound deadening treatment. ;)
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All the metal ceiling ribs were sheathed in PVC Planking before attaching the ePVC ceiling panels.
The Planking and the epvc panels are made from an expanded PVC which is an extruded closed cell PVC foam and has a certain R value.
Peter
Peter - Why did you use the PVC over traditional lumber? Can you link to the product you used please and how did you attach it?
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Peter - Why did you use the PVC over traditional lumber? Can you link to the product you used please and how did you attach it?
I Used the PVC Planking for a couple of reasons.
Main reason is, it is made out of Closed cell PVC foam and I thought it would create a thermal break between the Metal Roof ribs and the ceiling panels.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Royal-Mouldings-6510-1-4-in-x-1-3-4-in-x-8-ft-PVC-Composite-White-Lattice-Moulding-0651008005/202089995 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Royal-Mouldings-6510-1-4-in-x-1-3-4-in-x-8-ft-PVC-Composite-White-Lattice-Moulding-0651008005/202089995)
I started to attach the planking to ceiling with screws and almost immediately switched over to construction adhesive,
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-PL-Premium-28-fl-oz-Polyurethane-Construction-Adhesive-1390594/202020474?keyword=PL+premium+3x&semanticToken=21040+++%3E++++st%3A%7Bpl+premium+3x%7D%3Ast++cn%3A%7B0%3A0%7D++premium+%7Bbrand%7D+pl+3x+%7Brest%7D+ (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-PL-Premium-28-fl-oz-Polyurethane-Construction-Adhesive-1390594/202020474?keyword=PL+premium+3x&semanticToken=21040+++%3E++++st%3A%7Bpl+premium+3x%7D%3Ast++cn%3A%7B0%3A0%7D++premium+%7Bbrand%7D+pl+3x+%7Brest%7D+)
This proved to be a good choice.
Another reason I used the PVC Planking as opposed to the wood is the ability use the heat gun and form it exactly to the contour of the ribs.
The final reason was that the 4x8 EPVC panels that I am using for the ceiling are also made out of PVC, I originally tested and was able to glue a sample of the ceiling panel to a sample of planking using solvent pipe glue, the bond is quite good, I was never able to get this to work, the working window of the solvent glue is too small to get the 4x8 sheet positioned.
I ended up using screws with finishing washers to hang the ceiling panels.
Each of the panels is attached to the next panel using a divider Moulding.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stabilit-855-1-4-in-x-1-3-8-in-x-96-in-PVC-Composite-White-FRP-Divider-Moulding-10002-ZW096CB/205347156 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stabilit-855-1-4-in-x-1-3-8-in-x-96-in-PVC-Composite-White-FRP-Divider-Moulding-10002-ZW096CB/205347156)
So far the wife really likes the look of it, it is a long and tedious process, it has taken 3 to 4 hours per panel to install.
All the PVC moulding and planking has been inexpensivly avaliable at Home Depot, The PVC panels I purchased at a local Plastic supplier, Farco Plastics.
(http://www.peterbylt.com/MCI96A3/ceiling16.jpg)
Peter
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NICE!
I am liking the divider moulding and the idea of the PVC planks for furring strips. Does it hold screws well or does it strip easily?
I am not sure the PVC panels will work unless I can paint them easily?>
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spray foam insulation shaver/planer. this is why you have furring strips.
be sure they are spaced properly,
maybe you can rent this tool,
they are not cheap....
https://youtu.be/c2CGCFpi_B4?t=27s
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Some say this stuff is the cat's a$$
http://www.engineheatprotection.com/rollboard.html (http://www.engineheatprotection.com/rollboard.html)
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NICE!
I am liking the divider moulding and the idea of the PVC planks for furring strips. Does it hold screws well or does it strip easily?
I am not sure the PVC panels will work unless I can paint them easily?>
The screws are drilled into the steel ribs.
The ePVC panels are easily paintable, the main use for them is signs, They come in many colors.
https://www.acmeplastics.com/expanded-pvc-foam/expanded-pvc-foam-sheet?v=17928&st-t=adwords&vt-k=&vt-mt=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz6yzz-mq2AIVVp7ACh15RAAjEAUYAyABEgL30PD_BwE (https://www.acmeplastics.com/expanded-pvc-foam/expanded-pvc-foam-sheet?v=17928&st-t=adwords&vt-k=&vt-mt=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz6yzz-mq2AIVVp7ACh15RAAjEAUYAyABEgL30PD_BwE)
Peter
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Don't forget to consider the flammability and burn rate of these plastic components that are being used in a confined living space, and the toxicity of the fumes that are given off.
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Drywall screws work quite well due to the coarse thread. Not as good as screwing into wood, but will be satisfactory. Use the better coated ones that use a torx but that comes in the box of screws.
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My bus roof is curved but I've made the ceiling flat by installing a longitudinal and transverse framework above it from which the ceiling panels will hang. That framework was obviously (or perhaps not?) installed before the insulation was fitted and it also has the effect of (apart from right at the edges) making the foam much deeper than it would otherwise have been. To repeat again what I said in my previous post, I see installing the insulation as being something you do quite late in the conversion process, not as the very first step as so many others do.
The ceiling panels themselves in my bus were initially just going to be plywood panels covered with wood veneer in some places and acrylic mirror sheet in others - but in the process of buying the acrylic mirror sheet I discovered aluminum composite panel (sold under various trade names such as Dibond), which has been a complete revelation to me - light weight, very very stiff, fairly economic to buy, available in a vast range of finishes (including mirror obviously), and just generally excellent stuff. It's also a sign making material like the plastic sheet mentioned earlier, but is much more of a 'structural' type of material. As I say it was a complete revelation to me and I can see using it for all sorts of other jobs on the bus too - well worth checking out if you aren't familiar with it.
Jeremy
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Kind of late to this but here is what I did. After the pink thin layer I put the aluminum sheets back on and glued to them.
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Spray foam is the way to go. But it cost me $2500. But it really is effective. Don’t DIY this...it almost never works out well.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/0cd6e14039278af42ae841ce24c05c7b.jpg)
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Here's my truck conversion with 1x3 planks and no metal exposed for 2.25" of insulation
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Finally we have a picture of a job that the foam is totally flush like it should be, not with depressions in lots of areas. Good job.
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Tom C, when can we see a picture of your truck conversion of the outside of it. I just love a cab over and if I could do it again I would do a cab over.
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Found a picture of it! 😯
http://movinginsider.com/2013/09/27/used-u-haul-truck-conversions/ (http://movinginsider.com/2013/09/27/used-u-haul-truck-conversions/)
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Cheesie, mine has almost no depressions. Maybe a few very shallow ones. Nothing wrong with small air pockets between the walls. A 1/4” depression isn’t going to make a huge difference in Rvalue. I have added insulating felt and thin foam sheet on top of that foam before laying my 3/4” wood walls. I’m plenty insulated...after all I fulltime in -28°F and up to 114°F weather. For 90% of you guys, fretting about depressions in your spray foam job is pedantic because you are fair weather chasers and wouldn’t dream of being caught in minus degree weather. Good on tomc for completely flush foam and I’m fascinated by his quality truck conversion, but again, as long as you have your walls filled, slight depressions are not the end of the world. Now, just a thin coating of foam leaving the walls mostly empty is a different story.
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My point is that if you pay the big price to have it foamed, make it clear to the contractor, you want the finished product totally flush. But, maybe that's just me. I'm sort of anal about those things.
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Good point. And I’ll add another, make sure you and they understand who is doing the foam shaving and cleanup because that’s probably the worst job of all!
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If you want to see some pictures of my truck conversion, so to Facebook. I'm listed as- Thomas R Christman. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom, I tried to add you as a friend but you’ve disabled that feature. I’d love to connect...can you add me? Scott Michael Bennett:
https://m.facebook.com/scott.michael.bennett?ref=bookmark
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