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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Jcparmley on September 12, 2018, 06:01:52 PM
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Hello
I am having the worst time trying to find liability insurance while I am building the bus. I would like to be able to drive it to the mechanics place once and a while but everyone I call won't cover liability until it's completed. I argued with Progressive today because their website says the provide insurance here is a quote from the website
"Non-professional Bus Conversion?Class A
A class A non-professional bus conversion has the following characteristics:
Motor home facilities built into a Class A type bus shell, but does not include changes made to school buses or public transit buses, as these vehicles are unacceptable.
Conversion is performed by the owner of the vehicle.
So a 1989 MCI 102c3 Grayhound Bus is neither a School Bus or a Public Transit Bus. It's an over the highway commercial bus that has been gutted and is currently a shell. THe agent said it would not qualify because it previously carried passengers. So I asked him "can you tell what kind of bus would qualify? I don't know too many busses that haven't carried passengers. Anyhow, that was a futile excercise. No one seems to understand the concept of a bus conversation that is not a skoolie. Do you all have any suggestions?
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Stop dealing with the company directly and work through a GOOD independent insurance agent. Don't know where you are located or I'd try and suggest someone. The independent agents will shop your coverage for you and can be a great help when you have a difficult situation like this.
We actually have Progressive on our conversion. It was a professional conversion so it's a bit different than your situation. However, I went through an agent who did all the leg work. She worked through her contact in underwriting, submitted photos and specs on our coach, and we never had a problem. Of course, Progressive has different rules in every state.
Sorry to break the news to you, but until the bus is actually converted you may need to insure it with a commercial line of coverage as a bus. At least that way you can get liability coverage and be able to drive it. Once you get the thing licensed and registered as a motor home, never utter the word bus to your insurance company again. Once it's tagged as a MH then that's what it is.
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I was able to get a comprehensive plan through a local State Farm agent. I had to go with a "commercial" policy and it has a minimum policy time of one year. They insured me for the appraised value and have offered to update my coverage if I provide photos of improvements that I make during the conversion. Once I finish the conversion and have re-titled it as a MH they have offered to convert my policy to a RV policy. My policy is rather inexpensive and it is the only policy that I have with that agent.
I'm more than a year into the policy, and I got no grief renewing it. Now all I need to do, is start and finish my conversion to see if they live up to the rest of their promises.
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Get the ownership changed ASAP, half-@$# whatever you need to, to get the registration changed. Porta potty, a sheet wall, an electric frying pan and a mattress on the floor...
For liability only, stop having a freakin confessional with the insurance company...
You have a motorhome built by MCI and want liability only.
Full stop.
Anything else that comes out of your mouth scares the poop out of 'em, and just about everyone else, unless they are a busnut...
Talking makes trouble.
Stop it.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I live in Wisconsin. I have it titled in Wisconsin as a Motorhome.
Stop dealing with the company directly and work through a GOOD independent insurance agent. Don't know where you are located or I'd try and suggest someone. The independent agents will shop your coverage for you and can be a great help when you have a difficult situation like this.
We actually have Progressive on our conversion. It was a professional conversion so it's a bit different than your situation. However, I went through an agent who did all the leg work. She worked through her contact in underwriting, submitted photos and specs on our coach, and we never had a problem. Of course, Progressive has different rules in every state.
Sorry to break the news to you, but until the bus is actually converted you may need to insure it with a commercial line of coverage as a bus. At least that way you can get liability coverage and be able to drive it. Once you get the thing licensed and registered as a motor home, never utter the word bus to your insurance company again. Once it's tagged as a MH then that's what it is.
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Great point. I will try to keep my mouth shut. Wisconsin allowed me to change the title to a Motorhome before I gutted it. So it is already technically a Motorhome.
Get the ownership changed ASAP, half-@$# whatever you need to, to get the registration changed. Porta potty, a sheet wall, an electric frying pan and a mattress on the floor...
For liability only, stop having a freakin confessional with the insurance company...
You have a motorhome built by MCI and want liability only.
Full stop.
Anything else that comes out of your mouth scares the poop out of 'em, and just about everyone else, unless they are a busnut...
Talking makes trouble.
Stop it.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Great point. I will try to keep my mouth shut. Wisconsin allowed me to change the title to a Motorhome before I gutted it. So it is already technically a Motorhome.
Yeah - Wisconsin is nice like that. They will take your word for it when you change from bus to motor home. It was explained to me that all is good until you get pulled over and the officer notices that you're still a bus, and then the $h!+ hits the fan. Be careful because the fines would be steep.
I'll send you a PM with my agent's contact information. If the conversion is not complete, then you will want to have insurance for what it is right now - a bus. If you get it insured as a motor home when it's still not converted there would be a chance the coverage would be denied in the event of an 'event'. Not a chance I'd want to take. To get the proper MH insurance they'll want pictures, and once they see the unfinished shell that will be the end of the story.
Talk to the agent. Explain the situation. See what she can find for you. My suspicion is she'll find a low-cost commercial line policy to cover your @$$ till the conversion is complete. Once you have a completed conversion she'll work with you to switch to a MH policy.
If you are only looking to get coverage for a one-time trip to the mechanic I'd ask about that as well. Possible that there exist some type of transit policy.
We'll have to get together and compare notes. Glad to hear that there's another bus nut in Wisconsin.
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My old Hoopie (83 rust free Iggle) is titled "Motorhome." It has insurance and it is available. Do the leg-work, you will find it is out there, anything and everything to suit your needs.
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I don't know how it works in Wi ,here in AZ like I been doing upgrade on the bus I take it out of service.When I need to drive it I call my agent with State Farm and she handles it all she asks is how long it needed for cost me very little something like 20 bucks for last year.
I had Progressive they charged for the entire year only and the low cost premiums doubled in 3 years also.
Progressive would be my last choice,AZ is not a state that glass coverage is mandatory in a policy so you pay extra I had 100.00 deductible on glass. I broke both windshields in Texas at the same time on our Trek ( large windshields $500 bucks ea)they made me pay the deductible on both windshields I did then found me another Insurance Co
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My AmFam agent just asked for the VIN, make and model, mine was a shell. I'm in MN.
Like buswarrior said, it's just an MCI motorhome, no big deal.
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GEEZUS... quit makin' $#!% up.
It is what it says it is on the ownership. The rest doesn't matter.
It is a motorhome, and to reinforce the issue, the seats are gone...
No more talking, MCI motorhome, liability please, it ain't worth anything, quote please.
Shut the freak up about whatever else. It is none of their business until they are exposed to replacing it.
Time needs to be spent on the conversion, not this...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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The problem in the USA is no 2 states have the same insurance rules and laws and the insurance co's make the laws ,here the VIN will always come back as bus only the registration will be a RV and I am ok with paying 55 bucks for 5 years. I work around the insurance it's dumb to pay insurance for a full year on a vehicle you are not driving IMO,let your agent work for you and forget about the internet and 800 numbers
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GEEZUS... quit makin' $#!% up.
It is what it says it is on the ownership. The rest doesn't matter.
Not sure who you are talking to about making things up.
Here in Wisconsin they will give motor home plates to anyone that says their vehicle is a motor home. Sorry, but saying it's a motor home doesn't make it one. I was warned at the DMV that what I tell them will determine what plates I get, but if an officer or trooper is ever involved and disagrees with my claims, they can & will write a citation. Not a chance I'd be comfortable taking.
Last thing anyone wants is to have an insurance company attempt to deny a claim by stating that the vehicle was wrongly registered and wrongly insured. The agent that I work with deals directly with the underwriting department when writing a policy to help get the best policy to cover what needs to be covered. They often require photos to be sure you have what you claim. No point in buying more insurance than needed, but also no point in creating a problem down the road by trying to skimp and get a policy that won't cover things when they matter.
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I don't skimp on insurance I am just not paying for the time the bus is parked for months when I call my agent and tell her I am driving the bus to Phoenix or where ever I have the same million dollar policy as the rest of our vehicles it's simple and the bus is covered under my home owners if I burn the shop down
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windshield deductible from my insurance co $ 500.00
from my glass guy $ 375 installed
dave
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Buswarrior
With all due respect, I haven't made anything up. I was told today that if there is an accident and I don't have the correct insurance it's an immediate $400.00 fine. If the authorities find out that I have insurance as a private "Motorhome" and it's actually still considered a commercial "bus" (which it still is by Wisconsin law) the insurance can and will go after me for insurance fraud. I am a Lutheran pastor. Think about what would happen to my career if I was charged with fraud. Wisconsin dosen't mess around with insurance issues.
I came to this board to simply ask a question. You all have much more experience with this then me considering I just purchased the bus in March.
GEEZUS... quit makin' $#!% up.
It is what it says it is on the ownership. The rest doesn't matter.
It is a motorhome, and to reinforce the issue, the seats are gone...
No more talking, MCI motorhome, liability please, it ain't worth anything, quote please.
Shut the freak up about whatever else. It is none of their business until they are exposed to replacing it.
Time needs to be spent on the conversion, not this...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Laws vary from state to state, here Az if don't carry insurance and it is in a data base they void your registration and since all law agencies use the same software to check the plates. If you are pulled over they tow the vehicle and you get a big fine.So I just put mine on the disabled list till I get ready to move it but I always call my agent and she makes sure the state knows it is insured.Liability insurance should not be hard to get if your paper work is up to the standards again it varies from state to state
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Progressive would be my last choice,AZ is not a state that glass coverage is mandatory in a policy so you pay extra I had 100.00 deductible on glass. I broke both windshields in Texas at the same time on our Trek ( large windshields $500 bucks ea)they made me pay the deductible on both windshields I did then found me another Insurance Co
Do a search on Progressive and you will find page after page of very unsatisfied consumers. It took six weeks to tag my out of state bus that was already insured in Oklahoma.
Jus Sayin'
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Unfortunately, forums are going the way of social media.
Anyone just types what their next door neighbour said the cat's cousin's mouse said, just before being eaten...
Facts get in the way of expression?
Come close, new busnuts, and listen carefully...
The DMV - not a source of legal advice, they are taught to fill in forms. They are a hindrance to this hobby. The Boards are full of horror stories made by these clerks...
The Trooper and lesser law enforcement officers - not a source of legal advice, they are taught to write tickets, and if they write them wrong, and you correct it in court, there is no performance review... the only exception is an open minded commercial enforcement trained officer, and that one is only going to get you half way. No cop is going to tell you what you can do, they slap a ticket on it, when they THINK you can't. Up to you to point out they THUNK wrong...
On what grounds would your conversion be accused of being a "bus" if you have a registration that says motorhome? You've said the seats are out, you aren't carrying people around in it.. so, how is it a bus, and what have you done wrong?
I spent my career correcting the messes that DMV and cops made who make $#!% up. These civil servants are not trained to have "opinions" nor are they paid to have any... but they sure do like giving them out...
Unfortunately, our hobby is too small and obscure for there to be much help, perhaps a good thing?
Back to the vehicle being converted, the use and registration is the principle, and it sounds like you are already there.
So, to ease your mind, go to your state laws, find the definitions of bus and motorhome, find that you indeed are fine, print it off so you can show the enthusiastic new trooper at the side of the road, then...
Go get some liability insurance, as described earlier in the thread.
Or let unqualified people empty your wallet, jump you thru hoops and talk you out of this silly idea of converting a coach?
Make it happen, pastor, I'm rooting for you!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Don't disagree with what you said. My main point with regard to insurance is that just because a vehicle is tagged as a motor home doesn't mean the insurance company will agree. Push come to shove, if/when there is a claim on the policy they will look for any reason to deny the claim.
It's not the DMV that is of biggest concern, it's underwriting and the claims dept at the insurance company.
According to Wisconsin statutes, here are the requirements for having a vehicle classified as a motor home:
(6) "Motor home" means a motor vehicle designed to provide temporary living quarters built into as an integral part of, or permanently attached to a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis or van. In addition to sleeping and dining facilities, the vehicle must contain permanently installed independent life support systems that provide at least 4 of the following facilities:
(a) A potable water supply system including plumbing, a faucet and a sink, designed as either self-contained or to be connected with an external water supply, or both;
(b) Permanently installed cooking facilities;
(c) A permanently installed ice box or refrigeration unit;
(d) A permanently installed self-contained toilet;
(e) A permanently installed 110-125 volt electrical power supply or L.P. gas supply or both; and
(f) A permanently installed heating or air conditioning system, or both.
It is very easy to register a vehicle in Wisconsin without these things in place. However, the vehicle would not meet the statute's definition of a motor home. If/when there is a claim, there is a possibility that the insurance company would see that the vehicle does not meet the definition of motor home, claim insurance fraud, and deny the claim.
If the vehicle has these things in place, however crudely or preliminarily, that would be a different situation. Then it would just be up to underwriting to determine if they want to issue the policy at the onset. I was asked for photos for underwriting - they want to know beforehand what they are insuring. Makes sense to me given the quality of some DIY conversions out there.
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windshield deductible from my insurance co $ 500.00
from my glass guy $ 375 installed
dave
Don't tell 'em. Just don't.
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Okay, I agree that the minister should obey the law . Until his bus meets State requirements for a non-commercial bus conversion, he must pay for commercial insurance. If he plans on using the bus for his clergy after it is converted, he again must pay for a commercial vehicle tags and insurance.
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There is a God...
Some actual legislation quoted on BCM!! Thank you for this.
"Permanent" get a screw driver, a few screws and angle brackets. Just some little Old Testament rule observances. Remember, these are tax collectors evaluating your efforts, not religious authorities... fulfil the letter of the law, job done.
Insurance company would have to prove a direct connection between the motorhome inadequacies and the imagined disaster, in order to deny a claim. As best as it has been described so far, the disaster would be a driving error, where the administrative detail of registration is irrelevant.
There are far more stories of insurance companies abandoning their insureds than really happens, and remember, peeps who screw around and get caught, don't tell the truth in their story telling after the fact either...
Ever hear a guy brag he got caught by the IRS..., but you've heard lots of the opposite... unbalanced reporting...
I hope the parishioners are not going for a ride... your personal use only?
Otherwise, this is the wrong direction to be going.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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This bus is for personal use only. I'm not quite following why this forum or thread is like social media nor am I sure how anyone can be called out on making stuff up. The reality is I could easily purchase insurance and drive the bus. The problem is what happens if I was in an accident and the insurance company won't have my back. Or worse yet they get sued and they come after me for not meeting the criteria of "Motorhome". Progressive does suck, from my limited experience. That's why I came onto this forum to ask your opinion. I will keep working on finding a policy that will work. Too bad other people don't understand what we are trying to do. Too bad we all don't have half a million of disposable income to put down on a coach motor home. Even if I did have the money I would still want to build it my way.
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Sounds like meeting the statutory requirements would be pretty easy. It is a "laundry list". Take it item by item and determine the minimum requirement.
a) and d) are satisfied by the original bathroom (and please give me a good reason why not. Read what the statute says in plain English.)
The rest are satisfied as BusNut said, by angle brackets and screws. Hot plate, dorm fridge, ceramic heater, and a very rudimentary shore line. "Permanent" in the eyes of the law, means, a "Fixture", defined as being attached in such a way as to not be normally expected to be removed, or in other words screwed together in no more complex fashion than the simplest attachment in any S&S. Screws and angle brackets are perfectly appropriate for this and case law supports it.
Now, there is no standard that I am aware of that says what can and cannot be a permanent fixture. Therefore a ceramic heater and a hot plate does satisfy the letter of the law if it is properly "fixed" to the vehicle. A ceramic heater is a "heating system". Absent a definition of what constitutes an acceptable heating system, any device which heats and can be said to comprise a system satisfies the legal requirement. As the ceramic heater is composed of more than one element, it is a system. Same for the hot plate. Same for the sink, faucet, toilet, potable water system, and refrigerator or ice box. Note, an igloo cooler with a bag of ice bolted to the floor does comprise an ice box. The law does not address the sufficiency or the adequacy of the system. That is entirely the owner's concern as long as it does not impinge upon the public. As for the insurance company, they are required by law to comply with the statutory requirements. Otherwise they would pick and choose what individuals of the public they would insure and who they would not, so they must find other methods of achieving those goals than those covered by the statutes. Often they are able to do this, and they will try to do more than they are allowed by law to do. Unless you can back them into a corner. A cooperative agent goes a long way towards making that unnecessary, it's best to pick your fights carefully.
Jim
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Old Testament, all the way.
Letter of the law, no more, no less.
Put on yer jewish cap, Jesus hasn't arrived at the party yet...
This is the gubbermint.
There's always a work-around, completely legal, completely fulfilling.
Pastor, you are fine, carry on.
The world of bus boards has changed a lot over the last 20 years, answers used to have a degree of literary discipline, footnote, reference and fact.
errors were corrected, and posts moderated.
Not no more.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Sounds like meeting the statutory requirements would be pretty easy. It is a "laundry list". Take it item by item and determine the minimum requirement.
a) and d) are satisfied by the original bathroom (and please give me a good reason why not. Read what the statute says in plain English.)
The rest are satisfied as BusNut said, by angle brackets and screws. Hot plate, dorm fridge, ceramic heater, and a very rudimentary shore line. "Permanent" in the eyes of the law, means, a "Fixture", defined as being attached in such a way as to not be normally expected to be removed, or in other words screwed together in no more complex fashion than the simplest attachment in any S&S. Screws and angle brackets are perfectly appropriate for this and case law supports it.
Now, there is no standard that I am aware of that says what can and cannot be a permanent fixture. Therefore a ceramic heater and a hot plate does satisfy the letter of the law if it is properly "fixed" to the vehicle. A ceramic heater is a "heating system". Absent a definition of what constitutes an acceptable heating system, any device which heats and can be said to comprise a system satisfies the legal requirement. As the ceramic heater is composed of more than one element, it is a system. Same for the hot plate. Same for the sink, faucet, toilet, potable water system, and refrigerator or ice box. Note, an igloo cooler with a bag of ice bolted to the floor does comprise an ice box. The law does not address the sufficiency or the adequacy of the system. That is entirely the owner's concern as long as it does not impinge upon the public. As for the insurance company, they are required by law to comply with the statutory requirements. Otherwise they would pick and choose what individuals of the public they would insure and who they would not, so they must find other methods of achieving those goals than those covered by the statutes. Often they are able to do this, and they will try to do more than they are allowed by law to do. Unless you can back them into a corner. A cooperative agent goes a long way towards making that unnecessary, it's best to pick your fights carefully.
Jim
Agreed with everything in the bold. The power would be my hardest thing I think to pass the test but I'm sure a lot of people in here would know how to help you. Shoot, maybe a generator on hand would suffice.
p.s. I think buswarrior was just trying to say less is more when dealing with the DMV or Insurances. I don't think he was saying you are making things up. Hard to tell tone over the net but he's helped a ton of people in here and I don't think he was trying to offend you.
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No worries. Bus warrior is a great help on these forums. I spoke with Richards agent and she got me some basic liability. I guess she only told them what they need to hear, so you all were correct when it comes with dealing with underwriting. The more you explaine the more they get nervous. Thanks for all the help.
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Just to offer some balance about what to divulge whist applying for a policy. Just be aware all for profit insurance companies are going to minimize payouts as they directly affect the bottom line. Just be careful that in the event of a claim that discrepancies between what is actually insured and what is on the policy pass the reasonably accurate test. For these old buses, there is likely less stringent review as these old beasts are so different and unique. Just be cautious so you don't get left with a claim denial letter.
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I am moving so I need to move my bus to my new home 300 miles away. I am still converting it so it does not qualify as a motor home yes. In the past I had progressive as my insurance so I called them. They said they that they no-longer insure converted buses. (The may sill continue with what is already insured).
I called many others with out any luck. One I called that handles high risk said that once a bus is modified, there is not an underwriter that will touch it.
I don't want to spend more money and time on something I will not be able to use.
Can I get just reliability insurance. I need help so I don't have to junk my hard work and money.
Any help would be appreciated.
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First - welcome to the forum. Glad you're here.
Second, take a breath and don't panic. Hopefully you've read through this entire thread and have an understanding of some of the basics. If not, start scrolling and read the whole thing.
Basically, don't ever mention 'bus' or 'bus conversion' when talking to an insurance company. Actually, my recommendation is to not even talk to the insurance company yourself. Find a GOOD independent agent, and let them talk to the company on your behalf. This is one of those times you need someone on your side.
If your bus is not converted yet, then you do NOT need insurance for a bus conversion. You need insurance for a privately owned bus. That's what you have. At the least, you should be able to get liability insurance for your bus. Once you have the conversion completed far enough that you have motor home tags, you no longer own a bus (as far as the insurance company is concerned). At that point you own a motor home. Nothing more. Nothing less. Lots of good pictures to your agent if he/she requests them, then let them shop around for a good policy.
Regarding Progressive - they do still insure 'bus conversions' but not in every state. We have a factory conversion and ours is insured through Progressive. So was our first bus.
What state are you located in now? Where are you moving to?
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I just walked into a State Farm broker in Alabama (in December). 30 minutes later I had a cheaper better deal.
One coach, two cars.
With 3 different states registrations/tags.
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For future searches, I just wanted to add this. It's the definition of a "house car", or motor home as legally defined in the state of North Carolina. The laws in your state are most likely completely different, so don't go by this in other states. I copied this directly out of the NC Chapter 20 statutes that govern motor vehicles.
"Motor home or house car. – A vehicular unit, designed to provide temporary living quarters, built into as an integral part, or permanently attached to, a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis or van. The vehicle must provide at least four of the following facilities: cooking, refrigeration or icebox, self-contained toilet, heating or air conditioning, a portable water supply system including a faucet and sink, separate 110-125 volt electrical power supply, or an LP gas supply."
After I had the required systems installed, I scheduled an appointment with a DMV inspector who came out to my house and changed the designation from "bus" to "house car" while on his computer in my driveway. (He was fascinated with the project, btw.) I never again used the B-word, and have had zero problems with getting insurance, registration, the authorities, etc. It's not a bus - it's a motor home. Period.
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For future searches, I just wanted to add this. It's the definition of a "house car", or motor home as legally defined in the state of North Carolina. The laws in your state are most likely completely different, so don't go by this in other states. I copied this directly out of the NC Chapter 20 statutes that govern motor vehicles.
"Motor home or house car. – A vehicular unit, designed to provide temporary living quarters, built into as an integral part, or permanently attached to, a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis or van. The vehicle must provide at least four of the following facilities: cooking, refrigeration or icebox, self-contained toilet, heating or air conditioning, a portable water supply system including a faucet and sink, separate 110-125 volt electrical power supply, or an LP gas supply."
After I had the required systems installed, I scheduled an appointment with a DMV inspector who came out to my house and changed the designation from "bus" to "house car" while on his computer in my driveway. (He was fascinated with the project, btw.) I never again used the B-word, and have had zero problems with getting insurance, registration, the authorities, etc. It's not a bus - it's a motor home. Period.
Same with mine in NC. The DMV inspector (regular Highway Patrol uniform) spent 10 minutes with me, gave me a piece of paper to take to the license plate people, but spent most of the 10 minutes talking to me about how I wanted to do it and how I planned to get it done. Actually, I didn't have all the required items installed at that time -- I did have seats removed - but he was happy to sign off on the status as "house car" so I could get plates and insurance.
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Don't disagree with what you said. My main point with regard to insurance is that just because a vehicle is tagged as a motor home doesn't mean the insurance company will agree. Push come to shove, if/when there is a claim on the policy they will look for any reason to deny the claim.
^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^
Just because you have a stack of receipts or cancelled cheques doesn't mean you have or ever had insurance. Its all good until it isn't. Your only real defense is a local broker who values your business.