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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: David Anderson on January 25, 2019, 03:23:16 PM
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I've posted about this many times. I'm in Taos skiing and my webasto has sooted up again. It does it every time I go above sea level. I've been told they don't work at altitude without modifications, and well I guess that is right. I replaced the nozzle and filter and spent an hour cleaning the soot out of the burner chamber and water jacket, boy what a mess. I fired it up and it still smokes profusely. I adjusted the air intake for more air and it didn't change. I'm about ready to switch to an Aqua hot 200p propane hydronic and ditch this diesel mess and webasto complexity. I was smart enough to bring extra electric heaters this time, so we are not freezing to death. I need to get this unit looked at and so far the only choice is to de install it and send it to Sure Marine in Seattle. That is about $60 in freight each way. No one around San Antonio that could look at it is there?? Anyone have any ideas for a closer look?
I love this thing when it works, but it never works more than a few hours at best.
David
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Check the Webasto website for dealer service. Then call and verify they know what they are doing with Webasto. The right tech can diagnose and fix quickly.
if the unit is sooting then lack of air is the cause. Fan running too slow. That means bad bearings, low voltage, corroded/poor electrical connections.
A lot of our Webasto problems were fixed when we moved the circulator pump to a different power source. The power now just energizes a relay which controls the power to the pump. Some Webasto units appear to be voltage sensitive.
Good luck,
Bill
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I removed my circ pump circuit from the webasto supply long ago as a suggested fix.
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David,
Rudy Legget is in Houston. Is that close enough for you?
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David,
Rudy Legget is in Houston. Is that close enough for you?
200 miles. Does he have a shop to service them?
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He is an independent service person for the Aquahots. He does not have a shop per se, but he is very good with them.
Contact him at jrlegett at
that gmail thing.
I have been thinking about what you described. Of course improper air flow would cause black smoke and sooting. Unburned fuel would also be a cause. Since you have changed nozzles, I started thinking about low fuel pressure. That could be something as simple as a lower voltage spinning the fuel pump slower, or it could be a symptom of colder fuel, or a fuel pump not up to snuff. Check your voltage at the AH while you are in the cold. Next step would be to put the pressure gauge on the fuel pump. The AH service folks have a gauge brazed to an old nozzle that they use to check the pressure.
I have experienced a sooting problem like you describe, but it was my own fault. I replaced the coil and didn't pay attention to the grommet around the wires. It was letting out a wee bit of air. Any thing that interferes with the seal of the burner to the combustion chamber lets the air OUT, since the fan on the motor pumps air into the combustion chamber. It wouldn't hurt to really look at that interface to make sure it is sealing.
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Voltage right at the unit, right now, in the moment, under the condition it is screwing up is valuable info.
Measure voltage simultaneously right at the batteries for comparison.
Small wire, old connections, resistance in the line someplace... or find it good?
low voltage leads to fuel pump running slow, leads to low fuel pressure, leads to bad burn.
Fuel pressure is mission critical on these.
What size of nozzle? Dropping a size might tip the balance into your favour, if you're burning a big one.
When you say "elevation", just how high up are you?
Has to get into serious height before it's going to care, unless you are burning it on the ragged edge down at sea level, curious as to what nozzle is in it.
You spend a lot more money in frustration changing stuff, or get what you have sorted out. Yes, damned annoying, when you are using the coach to do other things, instead of the coach being your only obsession.
I mentioned to check the voltage properly, in a religiously motivated fashion?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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You want reliable? Install an electric (120vac) block heater with a circulation pump (120vac) and install an Arctic Fox coolant loop in your fuel tank (only if you'll be below -20f). I had this setup on my big rig truck and I also had an Arctic Fox loop on my 75 gal water tank. In -5f weather, all stayed nice and toasty warm all night with my Onan 6.5 air cooled Emerald III running my block heater, circulation pump, electric heater for the sleeper. The cooling air from my Onan was aimed at my water tank with a simple piece of cardboard. I didn't know any truck drivers that had Webasto or AquaHot on their rigs. I still have the block heater on my truck now that I'm converting it into a motorhome. Good Luck, TomC
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If it isn't the original nozzle that could be a problem, I recall someone on here saying he was running a nozzle that was a size larger. Once the burner is lit it's just a matter of balance between fuel and air and soot means a rich mixture (as does problems at altitude). So either something is causing more fuel to be used or the airflow is being restricted. If the nozzle is the original size then my money's on the airflow.
Airflow doesn't stop with the inlet. The exhaust is equally important. If you have any sort of a restriction there, no matter how small it is, it will reduce the inlet airflow. That's where I'd look next.
Jim
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Has this unit ever run correctly?
Jim's advice to confirm adequate intake AND exhaust is bang on.
There can be no compromises on the exhaust side, it needs big pipes and few bends.
Smooth pipe is way better for airflow than ribbed pipe.
Busnuts who are blindly "all about the coach" take note...The rest of the family quickly gets a hate-on for the coach, when it doesn't perform properly and interferes with the intended days activities.
hopefully there's a quick diagnosis for this one.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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How long is the exhaust pipe ? Webasto's are touchy on the length
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Also, the pressure at the nozzle is going to effect the proper atomization.
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That's true, poor atomization would contribute to incomplete combustion and soot generation. Pressure and nozzle size has to be right. Any bur or erosion of the nozzle would also cause a problem, as would air leakage.
Jim
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Richard, I think you gave me the magic bullet. I checked the grommets and the wires into it and I could feel air blowing out of it. I repositioned everything and tightened down the burner head securely with the tiedown nuts. I fired it up and ran it for an hour and it finally cleared up. The flames sound smooth and consistent. Before it rattled and popped. I had to adjust the burner intake for more air. I am in Albuquerque now. 4300 feet so it needed more air.
Other information, voltage at fuel pump 13.3. Nozzle is original size. .035
Exhaust pipe is 1.5” slipped and clamped over the end of the heater exhaust stub. Total length is 42” with one 90 degrees bend. I will run it a couple days and post back the results. Thanks for the help
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Hope that was the magic bullet. Those grommets are directional, and different depending on which side of the unit they are intalled one. There are right hand ones and left hand ones.
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Ditto on the 120v circulating heater. That is all we use in our beaten and abused shop shunt truck that lives outside. It will be outside tonight and ...
"A bitterly cold Arctic air mass is moving into southern Manitoba. Northerly winds of 20 to 30 km/h will combine with the extremely cold temperatures to produce dangerous wind chill values near -50 across southern Manitoba." (Thats -58F to you southerners.) It does complain a bit when we wake it up in the mornings.
It's sooo cold we even had to put a winter jacket on today.... ;D
BTW, around here the refineries (still called that but just tank farms now.) switch to #1 diesel as the temperature drops. It would be a good thing for you to fill up with #1 if you are expected to go into sun zero temperature areas. And/or carry a couple of containers of 911 (or equivalent diesel fuel conditioner)
BTW ... "everytime we go above sea level..."? You sig says you are from Texas, not New Orleans? ;)
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BTW ... "everytime we go above sea level..."? You sig says you are from Texas, not New Orleans? ;)
A bit of a sarcastic exaggeration but only about 3000 feet from reality. It is still smoking some after two days of hard use. I can still fill air blowing around the unit. It seems to be leaking air between the burner head in the water jacket. I tighten the bolts very tight but I am afraid to do anymore with fear of breaking off the tabs. At least it is working better than it has for years. When I get home I’m going to do some serious sealing attempt. I now believe that this is the problem.
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The burner/water jacket seal won't do anything for the air/fuel mix, by that point you're on the exhaust side?
A fuel pressure tester can be readily made using an old nozzle. Drill it out, a shirt pipe extension to a suitable fuel pressure gauge. Check your books for the pressure range required. drilled, threaded, soldered together, whatever you prefer.
Easy to screw it into the nozzle port, and engage the unit to measure fuel pressure. Part of annual preventive maintenance, measure the fuel pressure and record, while swapping in a fresh nozzle.
Which Webasto unit do you have? A .035 nozzle is a healthy size, with only 1.5 inch exhaust. How often does it cycle on and off? Going down a little in nozzle size might smooth things out, stop smoking, burn a little longer, cycle a little less, depending...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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It is a DB2010
40000 btu
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It should be a DBW2010, 45,000 BTUs.
And the cover O ring might be missing or broken. Here is one I found:
http://www.suremarineservice.com/Heat/DBW2010-Figure-2/50412244.html
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"The burner/water jacket seal won't do anything for the air/fuel mix, by that point you're on the exhaust side?"
I see it a little differently. The combustion chamber is pressurized by the impeller on the motor shaft. There are three areas where air can exhaust from the combustion chamber. One, around the penetration grommets. Two, around the seal the Webasto makes with Aquahot unit and water jacket, and three the exhaust pipe. If you take the Webasto and the swirler out, and you stare at it a little while, you could see the air flows in one direction through the swirler/combustion chamber all the way to the end, and then reverses direction to get to the exhaust hole. If the leak is at the grommet or seal, the air will take the path of least resistance, reducing flow to the combustion zone.
My personal experience has been that the slightest leak at either the grommets or the seal between the Webasto and the combustion chamber will make it smoke like a tug boat. I have a 2 1/2 exhaust pipe.
I had good luck sealing up the grommets with High Temp RTV. As they get older, they lose their pliability.
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"Warning! Cancer and reproductive harm". I'd be afraid to buy it, let alone handle it.lol
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Interesting.
the test benches I've seen, the burner head alone mounts to the open bench and just blasts into a tin catchment box assembled across from it, connected to a decent exhaust to outside.
But then, it isn't being forced through the jacket on the bench...
I'd certainly want no leaks between the burner head and the water jacket/burn chamber to control soot in the hosting compartment.
The next sizes up have much larger exhaust pipes.
Based on the variety of configurations I've seen in seated coaches, and the smaller ones used for pre-heating truck engines, and the wide differences in the amount/velocity of the exhaust "blow", I'd love to know how close or how far any certain model is to deteriorating conditions/smoking tolerant?
Top secret proprietary info, air flow rates etc, no doubt.
But then we'd know whether dropping a nozzle size would make all our problems go away for a nominal loss in "heating"
We need a retired Webasto engineer to catch the busnut bug?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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"Warning! Cancer and reproductive harm". I'd be afraid to buy it, let alone handle it.lol
But only in California.
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It should be a DBW2010, 45,000 BTUs.
And the cover O ring might be missing or broken. Here is one I found:
http://www.suremarineservice.com/Heat/DBW2010-Figure-2/50412244.html
Thanks Geoff, you have the numbers correct.
I don’t recall seeing an o ring😳 but it definitely shows it in the parts illustration. I will check when I get back to Texas in 2 weeks
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Interesting.
the test benches I've seen, the burner head alone mounts to the open bench and just blasts into a tin catchment box assembled across from it, connected to a decent exhaust to outside.
But then, it isn't being forced through the jacket on the bench...
I'd certainly want no leaks between the burner head and the water jacket/burn chamber to control soot in the hosting compartment.
The next sizes up have much larger exhaust pipes.
Based on the variety of configurations I've seen in seated coaches, and the smaller ones used for pre-heating truck engines, and the wide differences in the amount/velocity of the exhaust "blow", I'd love to know how close or how far any certain model is to deteriorating conditions/smoking tolerant?
Top secret proprietary info, air flow rates etc, no doubt.
But then we'd know whether dropping a nozzle size would make all our problems go away for a nominal loss in "heating"
We need a retired Webasto engineer to catch the busnut bug?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I've done a bunch of looking around and can not find a smaller nozzle. Is there a smaller nozzle available or is .35 the only option we have now?
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from what I could find the .35 is the smallest and when I could not find one I used a .40 and so far have had no problems . but did order 2 x .35
nozzles . the 1st one ( danfoss ) is the .35
WPX-886-41A - Danfoss
delavan 40-60w
dave
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There is another nozzle supplier whose name escapes me at the moment, starts with "S"?
I've seen their chart with sizes dropping down past .25, but whether that's with the same standard base, I don't know.
More investigation...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Not to sidetrack too much but why would we want to go “smaller” ? I like my DBW2010 when it puts out 40,000 BTU.
Fred
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I never posted back on this because I wanted to do some more usage before declaring a victory. We did finish the trip from Albuquerque/Taos and used the furnace extensively for the remainder of the trip. It worked very well and no smoke or sooting issues. Since I'm waiting for my turbo charger to be rebuilt (another post) I was finally able to open the burner head today and check inside the chamber. It was clean and looked good. Therefore, it was the leakage from the grommets causing my issues.
Also, my swirler tube was out of round, so I called Sure Marine and asked the tech if he thought I should replace it. He recommended to beat it back to round, so I found a cylinder (the screw cap off my acetylene tank) and I carefully hammered it into the tube and made it round again. He also said make sure the welded seam faces down in the burner assembly. I buttoned everything up, ran for 30 minutes, no leaks and the system runs great.
Thank you Richard, I truly believe I have this issue solved.
David
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Woo Hoo! I am glad someone else could profit from my mistake.
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.35 is right. Mine is fine and I'm at 7000' quite a bit. Is this running on battery only? They like 12v+ I havent run mine off of batteries, ever since I had a melt down. Well, not me, the Webasto.
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.35 is right. Mine is fine and I'm at 7000' quite a bit. Is this running on battery only? They like 12v+ I havent run mine off of batteries, ever since I had a melt down. Well, not me, the Webasto.
It didn't matter. Battery power at 12.6volts +/- or tied to the power pole with the inverter keeping the float voltage at 13.6. I always had the same results.
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I want to bounce this back to the top of the board.
My wife and I have been sking in Taos for a week and have used the Webasto extensively. It has worked flawlessly since I sealed the grommets and mated the burner head and tightened it to the water jacket. It has been 10-12 degrees every night and we are very comfortable in the coach, and my mechanical bay is happy, too. We are at 9000 ft elevation. I did open the air intake at the burner head for the higher altitude. Last spring I installed an hour meter by tapping the fuel pump circuit and my run time has been 5 hrs per day since we arrived. This gives me a decent measure of fuel consumed. At .35 gals per hour that's 1.75 gals/day. I think I read somewhere a DBW2010 burns about .35 gals/hour.
Anyway, I am so happy this thing is finally working like it should.
Thanks again, Richard.
David
PS, we have also been using it off grid dry camping at Quartszite for 4 days, 6 days at Lake Havasu ballon festival and 2 nights at Twin Arrows casino in Flagstaff (real cold there). It has been great.
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Thanks for the shout, and I am so glad you are toasty.
You bus DIY guys might want to look this thread over. When my Webasto controller became so flaky, that a replacement was inevitable, I decided to go a cheaper more reliable route. I also used the opportunity to replace and upsize the internal wiring in the burner.
https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32866
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Alternatives to the expensive Webasto controller parts:
Here's the guts of the linked info, go to the original site for the pictures and follow up posts:
The links don't go direct anymore, and they have 24 volt options as well as 12 volt.
Just so the info is embedded here, and as time goes by, the references don't disappear. Credit to Wanderlodge owners group and poster "Flyfisher"
Old 12-05-2018
Flyfisher Flyfisher is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Beverly Hills
Posts: 544
Default Aqua Hot 12VDC Controller Mod
Replaced the original Webasto controller and igniter with 12 VDC units made by Beckett.
The replacements have tested satisfactorily the last couple of days, but time will tell if they are the right choice. I wired them into the Aqua Hot and the Wesbasto burner exactly like the instruction schematic described. The only change I made to the control circuit was the addition of a Bosch relay in the dash light circuit to receive an alarm signal from the controller and break ground so it goes out when controller senses a fault and turns off the burner. The dash light functions as original, being lit when hydronic heat switch is closed and off when the switch is open or a fault occurs. The relay circuit can be left out if you want the dash light on all the time the switch is closed with or without a fault. The B zone recirculation pump circuit is still powered from the burner motor circuit, just from a new terminal strip point instead of locally at the motor connections.
In my WB there is a shelf attached to the bay ceiling just at the north end of the Aqua Hot. This made a perfect mounting spot for the controller and the igniter and all wires drop straight down into the Aqua Hot in an area where nothing is stored that might impact the wiring. I left plenty of slack wire so removing and servicing the burner will be easy. I found that when I opened up the burner all the original wiring insulation was brittle, cracked and bare in spots, so I completely rewired it with long wire back to my terminal strip with no butt splices. You can also reuse your Webasto igniter if you choose, but I decided to go ahead and complete the swap out rather than later when it fails.
I attached a schematic I drew for review and anyone interested. Also, Clint if you're interested, maybe you could make a nice one from it (hint). Hand drawing it wore me out, I made so many errors that had to be corrected.
The Beckett controller comes with preset factory settings that can only be changed with a programming tool, which they sell for about $60. You can choose the settings you want by the part number though and not worry about change.
Here are the Beckett components I used:
Controller: P/N 7556P152MU
https://www.beckettcorp.com/product/...urner-control/
Igniter: P/N 5218301U
https://www.beckettcorp.com/product/...-oil-igniters/
Total cost of Becket components $240.00. The 22C Bosch relay came with the bus was removed from my Jake brake circuit to make it function correctly, so its been looking for a home, I won't talk about how much it has cost me!
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glad to here there is a inexpensive way to hopefully fix some of the problems with the older
webasto units .
I ended up replacing my aqua hot unit and made my own and it has been amazing with no problems and because I used a all aluminium marine water heaters I ended up having faster hot water and more of it then I had with the old unit . very happy 8)
dave
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I don't believe I would have any type diesel fired heat without a backup,my dual element AquaHot does a great job on the pole,I had a single element that was a 0 on the pole,parts prices for the webasto are all over the map I bought a new controller just in case from a distributor the price was not that bad
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I wouldn't have ANY source of heat in the coach, without back-up.
The common busnut theme;
It ain't "IF" it breaks, it's "WHEN" ...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I agree.
Redundancy. Redundancy. Redundancy.
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Yep people think propane is unsafe in RV but it is the most dependable heat for a RV lol 78 degrees here and I am talking about heat go figure
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Luvrbus, shall we start a discussion on the relibaility of sail switches in the typical propane furnace, and the typical busnut's techniques for finding same?
Oh the fun we can have with heating appliances...!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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The sail (paddle) switch is just to be sure the motor is up to 75% power people change those all the time only to find out it is low voltage and besides they easy to bypass.propane furnaces are real reliable
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Ditto... Propane furnaces are very reliable. Our secondary propane furnace in the bus is an outside vented Empire radiant heater from our 1973 S&S wreck - furnace was restored once & going strong. No fans, 12 vdc, nor sail switched required... 8)