BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: jap42 on July 03, 2020, 05:04:03 PM
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I got one of the two mini splits running. Its in the bedroom and cooling like a champ. Granted, there is no sun out. But in 30 minuets it was dry and chilly inside. Pictures to come soon.
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How much does each of those units cost?
How many amps does it draw?
Jim
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Many different units on the market. From straight cooling, to reverse cycle heating, to inverter controlled. Just get a familiar name brand. Good Luck, TomC
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I am a big fan of mini splits . they are so quiet and if you get the high efficient units they are amazing but more money
sure do hate the 3 roof rattlers for the noise and noise and noise and power consumption that are in the coach now
dave
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Can those mini splits cool a hot coach down as fast as roof airs?
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Scott over on BGM is cooling his Silversides with a single Mr. Cool 120v mini split in the TN summer heat.
Apparently it can be done.
He does it with solar.
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Outside temp? In the shade?
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Outside temp? In the shade?
He has his bus in a sunny spot for maximum solar production and it's been hot an humid there. BGM has numerous videos where it is mentioned.
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I'm running them in bus-home-club house. 7 total since 2012. 9000/inverter type=8 amps steady-no surge on start. Bus has 3 total 2- 9000 and 1- 12000 (10 amp). cools/heats quick. single digits on heat and high 90's is all I have experienced. AUX(mfg) builds many of the brand names. all are 120 volt.
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around 5-6 hundred each delivered with line/install kits. Yes I run gen set down road. got to do math. Suggest single evap units. If one goes down you still have hvac.
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Outside temp? In the shade?
Lol bring your 12,000 btu mini split to sunny AZ park your bus in the sun in the 112F heat at 4 pm now and in 30 minutes you will look like a roasted peanut ,they are great in a high humidity area here in the dry heat not so great.Roof airs work better here you don't have the 10 or 12 inch space above like on the mini splits,the AC mini splits bus people are dealing with is the ductless system the fan and the cooling unit hanging on the wall
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my bus is very well insulated including floor. I don't do over 100 and don't care for below 40 outside( gets down to single digits a few times a year) Works great here and in florida. No perfect world just the one we choose.
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my bus is very well insulated including floor. I don't do over 100 and don't care for below 40 outside( gets down to single digits a few times a year) Works great here and in florida. No perfect world just the one we choose.
They are efficient removing humidly,in Needles the pot growers have from 100 to 150 of those units on their growing houses ,then they add make up air (evap coolers) on the roof to put the humidity back I guess those plants like high humidity and cool ,I don't understand the concept or reasoning.95 to 100 F is not bad here you know you will get a 40 to 50 degree swing from sunset to sunrise here in the valley,we get a taste of the high humidity for a few weeks and it is ugly
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So that's about $500 a ton I guess, maybe more. And about 10 amps a ton on 120v. Those numbers seem workable. That'd be $2k for 4 tons of cooling which should come close to doing the job, and would pull about 40 amps which is within the average RV power budget, should be under 5kw I believe.
If the entire unit costs $500 I wonder what just the compressor costs? Half that maybe? So for $1000 and some fittings and such it would be possible to add 4 of those little compressors to the OTR system. They'd run on 120v which is handy and could power the rack and dash air units. Plus they could be staged to adapt to the heat load. Just another way to skin the cat. Three 18000btu compressors might be a better match, 15A ea instead of 10 but maybe only 1 or 2 would be needed most of the time. I suppose either way would work.
Jim
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Jim - Have you looked into how the new Freightliner sleeper cabs are set up? They seem to have a system similar to what you're aiming for. The sleeper a/c system runs from the engine a/c compressor when the engine is running, and then when the engine is off it runs on its own DC powered compressor.
From what you're describing, you're trying to build a system similar to theirs, only with multiples of the sleeper cab systems running together.
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Wow, I forgot to subscribe to this, lol. I have both units going. Humidity is my enemy, I dont mind the heat. Im going to get some shades but with both running on a single 20A circuit in the full open sun 80+ degree 80% humidity. Very comfy inside. Once the sun went behind the trees I had to turn it down, it got too cold.
You could easily build your own system but for twice the price of the mini split. I bought these units used but the same units are about 700 new with line sets.
I would not waste money on a brand name, no one will honor the warranty if installed on a bus which is a large portion of the cost. I could Replace one of these 2-3 times for what mitibuiti wants for the same unit. And they are hard to find in 120V.
If I can find a nice Diesel Gen Set I may upgrade the front unit to 24K btu. I want to be able to run off a 24V inverter so I can run them going down the road
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Also, I did run one of them on my generac 2000W inverter generator. I tried a portable A/C on it and it would overload it when the compressor tried to start. So I was not very optimistic it would work with the mini split.
I was wrong. The load meter never went over 50% and I was able to run a fan and power tools as well. Its an inverter compressor setup so it starts up slowly and gradually. So there is no major spike.
The compress makes a little noise as it gets up to speed but once its running it no louder then my air leaks ;D. Its barely audible inside or outside. So far I am really satisfied.
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80% humidity when we reach 30% during the monsoon season we think we are dying ,I grew up in Houston humidity I know and don't miss it
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Welcome to Maine. Its ether Morbidly humid or snowing. We get a short break when the black flies come out. :o
Here are some pictures of our setup so far. https://photos.app.goo.gl/weSsTD3qe3vkNGGy5
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Welcome to Maine. Its ether Morbidly humid or snowing. We get a short break when the black flies come out. :o
Here are some pictures of our setup so far. https://photos.app.goo.gl/weSsTD3qe3vkNGGy5
I think the ductless are good for DIY cost wise, I don't like giving up the bay space for one.I doubt you ever see a ductless unit in manufactures conversions though,A good roof top now will cost a 1000 bucks, the cheaper ones like the Air Command they don't work here when the temps are 110F when you need it,I have seen the ductless units in the bays not work too picking up the heat from the payment all gets down there no free lunch for HVAC in a bus
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I really do hate it when I lose my work. My mouse has a back button that's a bit too easy to hit accidentally but I'm learning.
My approach is not exactly conventional, I get that and it's nothing new. Usually I manage to make it work, and sometimes it works better than expected. Regardless I leave it to others to create showpieces. I'm more oriented towards blazing trails and I'm pretty good at it.
So while the AC system is a new challenge the bar isn't really that high. IIRC a new sealed solenoid will be needed for the main condenser (probably N.O. for safety) and the new compressors will need to be plumbed in. There is probably room for them in the condenser bay above the fans. Soft start is probably a necessary feature. With the oversized condenser it won't need a lot of air so fan speed and current draw can be low, in fact with just one unit running, convection might be enough. I'll do the plumbing and recharging myself. I'm fortunate to have a working OTR system with r134 refrigerant. I have about 2/3 of a 30lb bottle and can get more at a reasonable cost. If there is a leak in the system it can probably be fixed with a new compressor shaft seal, but so far so good and time will tell.
I'm leaning towards using three 18K btu compressors just because the bin units each have a 1-1/2 ton rating and the dash also has a 1-1/2 ton TXV even though the specs say it's a 1 ton unit. But that puts the total current draw up around 45 amps not including the fans which is getting a bit tight. Still it's a starting point. If what you guys have been saying checks out one or both of the rack units should be enough. (36K btu)
I like those rack units. I like the OEM storage bins. They are strong, functional and attractive and I feel they can be successfully integrated into the interior decorating scheme since most standing will be done in the center anyway as I have adopted a center isle floor plan. Plus they handle the air distribution. I will need to do a little ductwork to the rear for the bath and bedroom areas of course, but there is a lot of flexibility there.
My conversion plan is minimalist/functionalist in terms of using what is already there. For example, knowing that the water always runs out first, I have a 275 gallon square stainless box going in the rear bay. I found a 2" stainless deck fill for the side of the bus which should accept most water sources and not stick out like a wart. It's a straight shot into the tank. I just have 3 fittings and the lid to attach and it's ready to go in once it passes the leak test. I built that box from a left over tank I made for a 3D metal printer prototype and that's sort of illustrative of my approach. It will make us very comfortable about our water usage, and cost me about $200 plus my time. My approach to the AC is similar. Use what is already there, spend money on necessities, and try to improve on convention if possible. 275 gallons of water is somewhat unconventional, but the bus can easily handle the weight and certainly has the room. It is vastly overbuilt for my needs. The same goes for the AC, there is no way I will need 13 tons of cooling capacity, ever. But it is much easier to make an overbuilt system do the job than an underbuilt one. I figure my costs should come in around a thousand dollars, maybe a bit more.
Hmmm... this bus is beginning to resemble a boat. Oh well, Break Out Another Thousand.
Jim
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nice pics
with all them windows and no shades you are doing great .
nothing better on the market for low noise and you can slow the fan speed down no constant air blowing in your face with a split unit . if you want to spend a little more money you can get a 24" x 24" cassette instead of the inside wall unit that you could mount on the ceiling
https://www.sogoodtobuy.ca/12000-btu-ceiling-cassette-air-conditioner-sena-12hf-ic/
( not 120 v but you get the idea )
funny about the humidity thing and where you live as my wife likes a perfect 50% or we adjust to get it there and 115 deg. that's not going to ever see me in it . maybe the phrase 2 levels down from hell comes from there
just kidding
dave
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LOL we won't miss you Dave we have 1/2 CA here this week end playing in the river,hard to understand why people like my neighbors will drive up from San Diego to this heat,3 months of heat and 9 months of real nice weather I can handle the heat or go to Idaho or less than 200 miles to Flagstaff
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For shades, we cut pieces of Reflexit to fit the windows, and then use suction cups to mount them so they sit close to the glass. The suction cups we used are these: https://www.staples.com/FFR-Merchandising-Plastic-Heavy-Duty-Thumbtack-Suction-Cup-1-75-55-Pack/product_248674?cid=PS:GooglePLAs:248674&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=248674&KPID=248674&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9IX4BRCcARIsAOD2OB1cqMesjKLuGfLd2-2s_XJGS7ziA64FLtHVFLv77mnv1_aV-yUibNIaAkFNEALw_wcB&akamai-feo=off
Not the most convenient to put up, but we find that they do a great job of darkening as well as insulating so we leave them in place until we want to look at the view somewhere. Having a full set of OEM windows we needed something, and this fills the need.
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yup
we from the north think it is to hot to go outside after it hits 92 f or so or at least stay in the shade with a cold beer
this was on the MCI
how I did my outside unit that was duct ed into the old bus a/c door so the a/c would work with the bay doors closed and while driving
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yYynw3M6RuYAd5377
inside unit
https://photos.app.goo.gl/J1hc2Cx66Saerky78
dave
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Lol bring your 12,000 btu mini split to sunny AZ park your bus in the sun in the 112F heat at 4 pm now and in 30 minutes you will look like a roasted peanut ...
Why would someone park a bus in AZ in the sun when it's 112F outside? Isn't that the time of year you should be heading north?
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Why would someone park a bus in AZ in the sun when it's 112F outside? Isn't that the time of year you should be heading north?
It will surprise you the people that like the friggn heat,in the 18 years I have lived here this only my 3rd time to be this late getting out of here last year I spent the whole summer and saw 121F and I never want to see that again , most of the summers I am laid up on the river in Idaho lol I am headed that way later this week I hope
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Guys out west never understand humidity.
I always get made fun of when I say "But its a dry heat." But its true. I am 6' 210Lbs Im not super heavyset but a little on the large side. I sweat like crazy. So on a 90 degree day in Maine I sweat. And because the humidity it 70-90% none of that sweat evaporates. I end up sticky and over heating, and theres nothing I can do about it except go swimming or take a shower and wash the sweat off.
Now out west its 90 with no more then 30% humidity. I sweat and it evaporates cooling my body. Then I can sweat more and regulate my body temp very easily. So I can stay comfortable all day, im not sticky and not over heating.
Hydration is the same ether way. I sweat the same amount in ether location, so I need to drink the same, which is a lot. But out west all I have to do is Drink More Water, In the east I have to find a way to cool my body externally or I will have heat stroke.
Sled Head: I like that setup, eventually if I ditch the OTR system all together I will modify the outdoor units to use that bay also.
I really think finding the right inverters to power these are the way to go. I would replace the 50DN with a 50DN+ (450A) Which should have no trouble running these or a little larger. A small bank of batteries really to act as the buffer from the alternator and to allow them to run short periods without the engine. Like after we park and are getting hooked up, or at a fueling stop. Then of course we have solar options and more generator options. I could hook my old 50DN to a small quite motor and have a DC generator.
I could use a micro controller to stop the alternator field generator when going up hill or under heavy load to give more power to the road.
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They are efficient removing humidly,in Needles the pot growers have from 100 to 150 of those units on their growing houses ,then they add make up air (evap coolers) on the roof to put the humidity back I guess those plants like high humidity and cool ,I don't understand the concept or reasoning.95 to 100 F is not bad here you know you will get a 40 to 50 degree swing from sunset to sunrise here in the valley,we get a taste of the high humidity for a few weeks and it is ugly
The plants can't take the heat and the cool temps and high humidity is less water used also no mold on leaves.
Similar to Tomatoes plants, Just enough water and heat to keep them alive. More at Harvest in September :)
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Las Vegas is mostly dry, the Mojave desert is, just as Death Valley, the dryest place in the US. I grew up with swamp coolers, evaporative coolers, which add humidity as a process to cool the air. Here it works to about 25%, before it looses it's cooling effect. Heat pumps don't cool enough in the hot summer, heat exchanging doesn't do well when it so hot. I just removed my front roof top Penguin that was 11.5Kbtu and got a 15K to handle the big windshields.
Nick what do you think about regional AC issues? lvmci...
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Las Vegas is mostly dry, the Mojave desert is, just as Death Valley, the dryest place in the US. I grew up with swamp coolers, evaporative coolers, which add humidity as a process to cool the air. Here it works to about 25%, before it looses it's cooling effect. Heat pumps don't cool enough in the hot summer, heat exchanging doesn't do well when it so hot. I just removed my front roof top Penguin that was 11.5Kbtu and got a 15K to handle the big windshields.
Nick what do you think about regional AC issues? lvmci...
I think I am missing your point. As a few others have said which confuses me. Are you saying you dont think a mini split works as well as a roof air?
A mini split works exactly the same as a roof air, except the Evaporator and Condenser are separated. My 12K btu mini will always out preform a roof air for a couple reasons:
First, the compressor is inverter powered, meaning it can change its output. So I get a continuous steady cooling, rather then constant cycling on and off. That means less temperature swing and better recovery.
Second, My condenser is 2-3 times the size of a roof air and has a much higher powered airflow fan. That means it can shed more heat off So it can handle a larger temperature swing.
Swamp coolers do the same thing as a A/C, they cool the air. An A/C moves the heat somewhere else, a swamp cooler converts heat into humidity. An A/C can move heat in any conditions. Its ability is limited only by the size of the components. A swamp cooler only works when there is little to no humidity in the air.
If Jim gets his OTR setup with an electrical secondary he will be styling, that condenser will handle any climate. Reefer units dont have as much condenser. lol
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I don't think the mini ductless move as much air as roof top the Coleman are 320 CFM but they blow colder air on the low speed ,out here mother nature gives you a lot of BTU's you have to over power with BTU's and insulation .Right now here at 10:30 am we are 102F with 9% humidity perfect for the evap cooler in my shop ,the reason AZ doesn't do the daylight saving BS is we don't need more sunshine later in the day
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I originally installed a 12,000 BTU Pioneer Minisplit, with the Condenser in the front drivers side Luggage Bay and the evaporator over the windshield.
I have been extremely pleased with the result, given enough time the single unit will cool the bus nicely.
The problems come when you want to cool the bus down quickly, living in Florida we also have issue when the temps start to get into the upper 90’s.
In my original plans I planned to install a second 12,000 BTU Minisplit in the back with the evaporator on the rear wall over the bed and the Condenser installed in the engine compartment where I had removed the original MCI Blackwater tank.
Reality struck and I realized I could not install the Condenser in that area.
Neither me or the Wife really wanted to put an air Conditioner on the roof, After much thought and debate, We decided we would rather be cool, and the decision was made to install a Coleman 15,000 BTU Mach 15 roof top AC in the rear Escape hatch.
I wanted to leave my options open and be able change at a future time so, I had my fabricator friend build me a new hatch out of aluminum with the 14” square hole already cut into it, removed and saved the original hatch and mounted the AC in the new hatch.
So far we are very happy with the result, the best of both worlds, We can run both roof top and mini split and cool the bus down instantly, once the bus is cool we shut off the Coleman and maintain with the mini split.
With minimal power we can run the Mini Split only, We can also run both Roof top and Mini Split under full load at less than 25 Amp, Need almost 30 amps to run both AC’s, refrigerator, Hot water heater, TV and house battery charger, need to shut off the Roof Top to run the Micro wave.
No issues at 50 amp.
Peter
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This is going to sound like overkill (cooling wise), but my Model 15 Eagle came equipped with four CruiseAir basement types, and three roof airs, and two generators to make sure they had power. The reason why it was equipped from new like that was because it was for two dozen rodeo riders and crew that traveled all over the west. Looks like they wanted to make dam sure they were cool. Nowadays, they would probably have put in inverter splits down below, but still put roof tops on. The name of the bus was "Rodeo Rose II".
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Go to any big city and see new entainer coaches parked for performances with 5 or 6 rooftop units. Those people know what works. Btw, ear plugs are cheap. Instead, come up with ideas to make them quieter. Those tall top sides hide them well along with outside noise. Didn't know they actually on awnings. The earlier versions looked too far in to be awnings. Maybe some type of sound absorbant on inside of ceiling cover can work.
Has anyone been using the heat pump versions rooftops? Are they worth the added expense?
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Go to any big city and see new entainer coaches parked for performances with 5 or 6 rooftop units. Those people know what works. Btw, ear plugs are cheap. Instead, come up with ideas to make them quieter. Those tall top sides hide them well along with outside noise. Didn't know they actually on awnings. The earlier versions looked too far in to be awnings. Maybe some type of sound absorbant on inside of ceiling cover can work.
Has anyone been using the heat pump versions rooftops? Are they worth the added expense?
On my Country coach the faring and awning on the roof you don't see the AC's ,the way mine are ducted and filtered you don't hear them only on the outside,and my heat pumps on the 15,000 Coleman worked like a champ when bring it home across New Mexico
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Heat pumps don't cool to the degree traditional AC does, when in temperatures that happen in the desert southwest.Today in LV, 108° with 5% humidity.
A swamp cooler would cool well, I used it A lot, under the right humidity. i had a house with a piggy back AC/swamper, in my opinion, with the cost savings, this is the best combination...
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I originally installed a 12,000 BTU Pioneer Minisplit, with the Condenser in the front drivers side Luggage Bay and the evaporator over the windshield.
I have been extremely pleased with the result, given enough time the single unit will cool the bus nicely.
The problems come when you want to cool the bus down quickly, living in Florida we also have issue when the temps start to get into the upper 90’s.
In my original plans I planned to install a second 12,000 BTU Minisplit in the back with the evaporator on the rear wall over the bed and the Condenser installed in the engine compartment where I had removed the original MCI Blackwater tank.
Reality struck and I realized I could not install the Condenser in that area.
Neither me or the Wife really wanted to put an air Conditioner on the roof, After much thought and debate, We decided we would rather be cool, and the decision was made to install a Coleman 15,000 BTU Mach 15 roof top AC in the rear Escape hatch.
I wanted to leave my options open and be able change at a future time so, I had my fabricator friend build me a new hatch out of aluminum with the 14” square hole already cut into it, removed and saved the original hatch and mounted the AC in the new hatch.
So far we are very happy with the result, the best of both worlds, We can run both roof top and mini split and cool the bus down instantly, once the bus is cool we shut off the Coleman and maintain with the mini split.
With minimal power we can run the Mini Split only, We can also run both Roof top and Mini Split under full load at less than 25 Amp, Need almost 30 amps to run both AC’s, refrigerator, Hot water heater, TV and house battery charger, need to shut off the Roof Top to run the Micro wave.
No issues at 50 amp.
Peter
Frist person I ever heard say you couldn't make popsicles with a 12,000 btu mini in a bus when it is a 100F ambient outside 8)
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If you want quiet, I took two Penquin roof tops and converted them to basement units-lot of work and engineering. But VERY quiet. Good Luck, TomC
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Rooftop AC noise is mostly the result of high air velocity. Ducting the units and allowing multiple supply vents cuts way down on the air velocity and therefore the noise.
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The only reason you will not see a coach builder use any mini split is because they are not meant for mobile use. So they will stick to RV roof airs so they have a warranty. I lived in a 40' Park model for 5 years. It had a ducted 12K btu roof air. It would cool the camper alright, but you could not hear yourself think it was so loud. I checked out some of the newer ones which were quieter but still quite a bit of noise.
I dont have a CFM spec on these ones but I would say 200-300 CFM. My heat pump in my house is a mitibuiti 24K and that will put out over 500CFM on high. The lack of ducting means less turbulence and less air noise. But plenty of air flow. Higher air flow can help but mostly with dehumidification, Higher airflow can make it seem cooler because your likely to be in the path of cooled air, but to actually drop the ambient temp it would not make a difference. That is completely up to to amount of heat the evaporator can remove.
If we are talking efficiency, yes the swamp cooler is much more efficient, there is no compressor, just fans and a small water pump. But if we are talking effectiveness they are about the same. Its all about the BTU the system is designed to handle. A swamp cooler requires almost twice the physical space for the same BTU and is only effective if the humidity is right. An A/C with a properly sized condenser for the temperature differential is completely effective. The biggest complaint I see from those that have them is finding space to put the condenser.
I am thinking of modifying mine to lay the condenser face down so the fan blows down. Then I will open vent holes below just like the OTR system. We will see what happens with the OTR system. If that craps out I will strip the space out and build my own system that can run off 220VAC or 24-48VDC. One of the thoughts I have about the OTR system is it was built to combat not only the outside temperature but also 47 heaters in the seats. Without all that body heat I think the system can be downsized. 24K seems to cool well. I think 36K will do OTR. One condenser in the old A/C compartment feeding a 24K in the front and 12K in the back. If I did not have the rest of the conversion to do I would put a lot more money into this.
TLDR; My 2X 12K BTU units work great, I could not be happier with the performance. I can not wait to test on the road.
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TLDR means??
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To Long, Dident Read. Basically the readers digest version of my endless rambling.
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If you want quiet, I took two Penquin roof tops and converted them to basement units-lot of work and engineering. But VERY quiet. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, I would like more details and pictures when you have time. I have three spare Penguins that need something to do. I have often thought it would be possible, but the details are numerous.
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Tom, I would like more details and pictures when you have time. I have three spare Penguins that need something to do. I have often thought it would be possible, but the details are numerous.,
Walter you need the ducted version to do that with,the 12,500 and 15,000 Penguins are the same unit if you have 12.500 you just change the blower motor for 15,000 BTU I just did that on mine in the Trek,the new Penguins ll are really junk
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the new Penguins ll are really junk
I agree, that is why I saved the older ones. They are not the ducted type though. I might just have to add them to the roof.
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Picture of the bottom of the Penquins on the plywood stand I made with the addition of ducting.
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Thanks Tom, was this originally a ducted model, and how is the unit positioned (original horizontal or vertical)? The legs are confusing me.
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It is positioned just like on the roof, the legs are to raise the unit up for the ducts to clear.
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Ah, so the original outer cover is not used at all?
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Now is the time to test any AC unit here, Sat forecast 117F and Sunday is 121F dry heat or not I am out of here,200 gals of fuel should find me a cool place
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to hot for me !
dave
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We always shoot for higher elevation in SW summers. SoCal, NV, UT, NM, even CO, especially AZ, time to get high guys! Lol...
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One good thing about living here in 1 hr we can be at 6000 ft in Kingman and 3 hours we can be in Flagstaff at 7800 ft ,Flagstaff here we come
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It is positioned just like on the roof, the legs are to raise the unit up for the ducts to clear.
Tom what you did with the roof tops is interesting. I was thinking on a similar idea using window units. Is there an advantage using roof airs or just something you had on hand? dimensions? Space requirements? How did you exhaust the condenser heat?
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Clifford; surprise you haven't fled before now! Our temps here and in Dan's area of florida are simular this time of year. 90's feels like over 100 His humidity aproaches 100 % ours is just in 80%. So his sweat sweats. I'm inside in ac by 10am. Guess all those years we had to work outside year round have changed us with age. God speed to all
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We are at 85-90 today in the sun. I walked 10 yards outside, picked up a part and carried it inside and my shirt is wet. Its nuts!
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Yeah the bus barn is insulated & air conditioned and where we're spending most of our time. If we're outside in the sauna for any length of time it's on the boat or in the water it's sitting in... 8)
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LOL this morning I have the Aquahot on,light jacket and long pants , damn 53F and 5% humidity is cold ,AZ you got to love it a 60 degree swing in 125 miles
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I will try to remember this when it's -30 outside this winter and think summer was not that hot
dave
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LOL this morning I have the Aquahot on,light jacket and long pants , damn 53F and 5% humidity is cold ,AZ you got to love it a 60 degree swing in 125 miles
Clifford, What options are there for RV in Flagstaff area?
Going from Oakland to Concord, about 15 miles, during the summer, the temp goes from 70 to 100 in 15 miles, in the tunnel at 70 and a mile later it is 85 coming out, then a degree a mile, really amazing.
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Plenty of RV,State and Federal parks around Flag,I like Williams better plenty of free parking there and the climate is the same
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That's the advantage of the Penquins, they are the only roof A/C that uses a squirrel cage blower for the condenser air-which was easy to duct with a 6" hose to the outside through the floor. Good Luck, TomC
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There is lots of forest service land, that people boondock, between Williams, Belmont and Flagstaff. Yesterday we were dumping pine needles at a green waste dump and there were plenty of boondockers pulled off in some graded spots, some even just off the road. Beware of forest thinning, you don't want to be awakened by chainsaw and falling timber!...
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That's the advantage of the Penquins, they are the only roof A/C that uses a squirrel cage blower for the condenser air-which was easy to duct with a 6" hose to the outside through the floor. Good Luck, TomC
That is very interesting and handy to know, thanks Tom.
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I ran both of my mini splits yesterday on one 2000W inverter. It struggled to get the second one started althgouh the voltage did not drop much at the inverter. I currently have a 50' 14ga extension cord hooked into the panel providing power, so there is a bit of drop at the panel. After about 10 minuets of running the inverter started making a low voltage tone (Battery was not fully charged.) So overall a good test.
The inverter is a really crappy ebay piece of junk I bought 10+ years ago. I dont think it truly can put out 2000W. I have tried to use it with other stuff and its almost never worked. The modified sine wave is really distorted, its junk. But even junk was able to run both units. I am going to find a low cost 3500W split phase with a transfer switch build in and that should be fine. I'm trying to stay in the 24V range.
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Picture of the bottom of the Penquins on the plywood stand I made with the addition of ducting.
Tom, taking a closer look at your setup - I'm assuming that the photos are showing the evaporator ducting. Do you have photos of the condenser ducting? Your approach has got my attention! Thanks
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I ran both of my mini splits yesterday on one 2000W inverter. It struggled to get the second one started althgouh the voltage did not drop much at the inverter. I currently have a 50' 14ga extension cord hooked into the panel providing power, so there is a bit of drop at the panel. After about 10 minuets of running the inverter started making a low voltage tone (Battery was not fully charged.) So overall a good test.
The inverter is a really crappy ebay piece of junk I bought 10+ years ago. I dont think it truly can put out 2000W. I have tried to use it with other stuff and its almost never worked. The modified sine wave is really distorted, its junk. But even junk was able to run both units. I am going to find a low cost 3500W split phase with a transfer switch build in and that should be fine. I'm trying to stay in the 24V range.
Do you think a Magnum MS2812 (2800 watt) inverter would run those two mini-splits? Just curious.
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2800 should do it. I think its about 900 running each. Those don't have a lot of surge capacity so it might not have a lot of extra for anything else.
I just ordered an aims 3000W pure sine wave inverter. I will update when I get it in.
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There are 12K mini splits out there that are drawing 750 watts - time & technology march on... Thanks
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I have 2 x 12 k split units at home and they both run off of one 20 amp 120 volt breaker and have never had the breaker trip . At first I thought if by chance they both started at the exact same time with the in rush I might have a problem . But it has not happened in the 10 years they have been used ( both heat pumps now ) . One unit is a 16 seer unit and the other is newer and is 20 seer unit . The newer unit is 3 years old ( replaced a 10 year old just a/c unit ) and the heat pump will work as low as 15 f . So I do not think you will have any problems running 2 units off of the magnum . But I would spend the little extra money on a more efficient heat pump , Minimum 20 seer or better
dave
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I was at Peterbuilt in Bosie having a full service on our RV they were installing 12v AC and heating systems in some new Petes called Artic Breeze. The 12v model was 7200 BTU and the 24v model was 12,000 BTU 500w neat little system comes with Ion batteries. a charger and when needed and had a 300CFM fan, price was $4000.00 + that would be a killer for most bus nuts.I don't know how they worked on AC current they installer said they worked on both,they are split
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I was at Peterbuilt in Bosie having a full service on our RV they were installing 12v AC and heating systems in some new Petes called Artic Breeze. The 12v model was 7200 BTU and the 24v model was 12,000 BTU 500w neat little system comes with Ion batteries. a charger and when needed and had a 300CFM fan, price was $4000.00 + that would be a killer for most bus nuts.I don't know how they worked on AC current they installer said they worked on both,they are split
If they're anything like the ones on my Freightliner they probably work well. I think that our units are DC only, running on 12vdc. Easily keeps the sleeper at 65F with outside temps pushing 100F.
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Any brands of the 12kW mini-splits you folks are happy with? Thinking about swapping a rooftop for one since the energy draw is so much less which is a real issue when running AC off solar.
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I have been running a mini split on the back of my 102a3 for 3 years now. It works great until the temp gets up to 95 or so. At that point, with the way my bus is sectioned off, I can't blow enough air up front to cool that area. Other than that it has heated and cooled my bus well.
So I am clearing out the bay where the over the road air stuff was and have a new mini-split to put in there that should arrive in the next couple of days.
The on I have had for 3 years is a 12K btu, 110v, Air Con with inverter technology. I bought it now for $450. Now the same unit is well over $800.00.
So I bought a 20 seer, 12K, 110v, Daizuki heat pump with inverter technology for $550 to put in the bay I am clearing out.
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Speaking of putting in a second mini split :D
I understand there is probably a valve I need to close before taking the radiator in the picture out....but can not seem to find it. Where is it located?
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Any brand with inverter, honestly I would go cheap because you wont have any warranty with any of them.
ccbmster: That is not a radiator, its a condenser. It looks like one of the lines is already broken off, so its empty. If not its possibly under quite a bit of pressure. And probably with R22 refrigerant. So be careful. Take it to an A/C shop and have them evac it for you. If it is clean R22 some guys may do it for free if you let them keep the refrigerant. R22 is getting expensive as it gets phased out.
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Thanks for the details. I'm starting the hunt now that the lithium conversion is done and the panels are in (nearly, still need to mount on roof). The rooftop units are miserable energy hogs, got to go asap! Lot better option than amping up more panels to feed to hog, much less two of them.
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The amperage draw between the 16.5 seer & the 21 seer mini splits is substantial but any mini split is a world better than conventional roof tops. We have the skinniest amp draw of any of the roof tops. It is the Dometic HE Brisk Air II @ 12500 btu @ 9 amp draw. We will be powering it with a Magnum MS 2812 with power to spare. A high efficiency 12500 btu mini split draws approx. 780 watts. FWIW
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I am reading you guys saying heat pumps are not as good at cooling in the desert areas as conventional AC's.
Why is that? I thought the only difference was the reversing valve, and a cycle where it uses a heatstrip when heating to defrost the outside coils.
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Any brand with inverter, honestly I would go cheap because you wont have any warranty with any of them.
ccbmster: That is not a radiator, its a condenser. It looks like one of the lines is already broken off, so its empty. If not its possibly under quite a bit of pressure. And probably with R22 refrigerant. So be careful. Take it to an A/C shop and have them evac it for you. If it is clean R22 some guys may do it for free if you let them keep the refrigerant. R22 is getting expensive as it gets phased out.
I cut off those two hoses in order to remove the AC dryer. There was extremely little freon in it (yes, R22). Someone said that they did this and they did not shut off a coolant valve in the back of the bus, which resulted in coolant being pumped into that bay when he started the bus up.....I can not find where there is any suck coolant valve that is connected in any way with the AC system.
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When you cut the evaporator out (In the middle) you will also be removing the heater core. No collant in that door. One of the shut off valves is in the passenger side engine compartment door right along the engine frame. (102A3) not sure where the other one is but should be in a similar area. Probably above the motor.
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In the desert they can use swamp coolers. They use very little power to cool very well. A properly sized A/C can cool as well as a swamp cooler but will use a lot more power and cost more up front. They have this idea that they dont work as well, but in reality they are just not cost effective with the alternatives they have available.
Swamp coolers only work with the humidity is below a specific level (Around 15% I think) and they require about 3-4 times the space outside as a mini split condenser. But they only have a fan and maybe a small water pump, so they only use a few hundred watts. A similar sized mini split will pull a few thousand.
Heat pumps useally will do better in hotter climates then A/C only. The outdoor condenser is larger to keep up with the larger tempature swing when trying to heat to 65 when its 15 outside. (50 degree swing) Where an A/C is only cooling from 100 to 65 (40 Degree Swing). Hyper Heat Models will do even better.
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I thought you could use a swamp cooler and a AC at the same time, the swamp cooler cools and gets the humidity up, and the AC removes the humidity and ergo cools better because of it. Or is that not how they do it?
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When you cut the evaporator out (In the middle) you will also be removing the heater core. No collant in that door. One of the shut off valves is in the passenger side engine compartment door right along the engine frame. (102A3) not sure where the other one is but should be in a similar area. Probably above the motor.
Do either of those need to be shut off?
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Evaporator will be empty, but the core will need to be shut off. What model do you have?
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swamp coolers may be a viable option where fresh water is plentiful; although not based on actual gph figures, just assuming they will gobble more than one would want to offer up from the fresh water tank onboard.
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Evaporator will be empty, but the core will need to be shut off. What model do you have?
1986 MCI 102A3
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Re: pulling the condenser...
There's nothing to turn off, you already have cut the line to it, drag it out of there. There's scrap money in that heavy unit, don't just toss it...
If you are removing the rest of the hvac, the big evaporator and the heater core, then you have to terminate the heater core properly, and be sure not to screw up the feed to the driver's defroster.
That's a whole different post, this one has enough side channels already.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I think Mitsubishi makes an inverter mini split that uses real low power because the inverter handles a lot of it.
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I think Mitsubishi makes an inverter mini split that uses real low power because the inverter handles a lot of it.
Most if not all the mini split have the inverter compressors I have seen ,my 15,000 BTU Colemans draw 11 to 12 amps when the temps are in the 90's and go to 15 amps when 105F and above fwiw all AC amp draw testing is based on 85F degrees.The ductless split units are ok if want to give up the space,and they struggle in the AZ heat like all AC units so we don't see many here
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Nope in looking them up for our trailer they don't all have them. Only about 1/2 of what we found had them and some you have to have charged where as others like Mr. Cool come with the charge already in it that you release when hooked up. ;)
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I just finished looking at at least 30-40 of mini-splits before making a purchase (got the new one running late yesterday afternoon and it appears to have been a great choice). Most, not all, have inverter technology. The vast majority come pre-charged (very nearly all), but fewer come with pre-charged lines. If the lines are not pre-charged, you do have to vacuum the lines prior to releasing the refrigerant from the condenser....but you do not have to add refrigerant.
I have never installed one with pre-charged lines, and I don't think I would want to. With pre-charged lines I don't see any way for you to make sure you have no leaks prior to pressurizing the system with refrigerant. I prefer to vacuum the lines and then wait to see if the vacuum holds or if their is a leak. Then release a pound or two of refrigerant, close the valve, and again wait to see if the pressure holds before releasing the rest of the refrigerant.
I am not a HVAC guy and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.....but those are my thoughts :)
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I have only been around a few brands,I have read the little gotta you on the warranties on 1 at Costco.I saw a bus in Uath that had a split mounted above the engine doors it was not a nice install the old Detroit added it's personal touch it was nasty.My Colemans are quite and 45,000 btu's they do a good job and you don't see them on the roof.
The party that bought my MCI removed the 5 Penguins from the roof and is installing mini's 1 24,000 btu and 2-12,000 btu units with a large Ion battery bank,it has 8000w of inverter power so he should be able to run the splits from the inverter while driving
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My bus has never been to Utah, but I have one mounted above the engine doors. Good install?? I guess that is open to interpretation by the individual. It does have the DD personalized touch between washings, but 3 years now and it has never failed me....well other than not being able to keep the front cold when the temp gets in the 90's due to my layout not allowing me to push enough air to the front.
Just finished the rough install of a second unit in the bay that had the OTR AC in it yesterday. Now I can freeze myself out of any room in the bus no matter the outside temp.
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My bus has never been to Utah, but I have one mounted above the engine doors. Good install?? I guess that is open to interpretation by the individual. It does have the DD personalized touch between washings, but 3 years now and it has never failed me....well other than not being able to keep the front cold when the temp gets in the 90's due to my layout not allowing me to push enough air to the front.
Just finished the rough install of a second unit in the bay that had the OTR AC in it yesterday. Now I can freeze myself out of any room in the bus no matter the outside temp.
I saw the bus at a Pump and Park travel center in Nephi Utah on Friday,FWIW if you travel in Utah the Pump and Park offers free dumping,water and a safe place to park overnight and no purchase is required the fuel was $2,09 a gal so I did fill up the tank nice with RV pumps
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I just finished looking at at least 30-40 of mini-splits before making a purchase (got the new one running late yesterday afternoon and it appears to have been a great choice).
My kind of dude, research is king. So, what were the key decision criteria you used to evaluate the mini-splits? Performance, SEER rating, durability, brand/quality, warranty, mfg support, cost, etc.?
I do research but if I get a few free bones, I'll surely take them. As soon as I can I'd like to swap the front rooftop out for a mini-split and mount the fan unit onto the metal destination sign cover. Should offer nice coverage, mount vertically, uncomplicated installation, and tuck up fairly out of the way.
My key criteria are likely high efficiency, solid cooling performance, quiet, solid and easily accessible manufacture support.
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Just a reminder, you will not get any warranty or support from any manufacturer if you install in a bus.
You can go high quality and hope it holds up because its better quality, or go cheap and hope they last long enough to be cost effect to replace every so often. All of the 110V units use the same compressor, there are not a lot of compressor options out there. They are cheap, I figure once mine goes I will add some valves and flare fittings so I can swap it quick. Same if I build my own system.
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They are almost cheap enough to buy the mini-split just for the compressor and the controls. Something I will be looking into before long. If 115v mini-splits are available in 18K and 24K btu a couple of those added to the OTR system could work out well.
Jim
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I have 3/4" plywood in each side of the whole in the floor that the fan was over, then some vibration dampening material on top of those two pieces of plywood, and they the 3'4" plywood the outside unit is fastened to.
I put a furnace filter over the hole in the floor and there is enough clearance to slide it out and replace it when I need to.
On the right hand side as you are looking at the outside unit, there is a heating duct that goes up into the living room and that is where I ran the line set up.
Finished it off with a cork board around it. Still thinking about if I can come up with a way to dress the line set cover up a bit.