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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: luvrbus on November 13, 2020, 07:09:35 AM

Title: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 13, 2020, 07:09:35 AM
 2 shops involved this what a owner got for his $14,000.00,blower missing,no rods,Jake is missing,water pump and no injectors your heart breaks for people when they get shafted like this,he had the bus towed to Williams and they won't touch it   
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: richard5933 on November 13, 2020, 07:17:12 AM
Wow!

I was going to ask what is that. Now I think I'll ask what was it, because it surely isn't it anymore.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 13, 2020, 07:31:12 AM
Wow!

I was going to ask what is that. Now I think I'll ask what was it, because it surely isn't it anymore.


Was a 8v92TA this one will take while
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: dtcerrato on November 13, 2020, 07:47:10 AM
I see my name on that box! I had nothing to do with it!
"your heart breaks for people when they get shafted like this"
Yes it does...
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Lin on November 13, 2020, 01:12:07 PM
The guy paid up completely upfront?  I hope is was on a credit card.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: buswarrior on November 13, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
I feel sorry, and at the same time, natural selection has to run its course.

Too many get into this shark infested pond, thinking they are consumers, with some sort of fair play school yard rules...

This is a commercial playground... you are a shark, or you are shark food.

No in between, but people keep dreaming about buses.

Be very careful, busnuts, the best shark leaves you feeling you were well taken care of... right up until you get chewed...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Van on November 13, 2020, 03:40:20 PM
2 shops involved this what a owner got for his $14,000.00,blower missing,no rods,Jake is missing,water pump and no injectors your heart breaks for people when they get shafted like this,he had the bus towed to Williams and they won't touch it   
The Pictures don't really show the horror that is contained in that crate, absolutely despicable. >:(
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: lvmci on November 13, 2020, 04:05:19 PM
I hope you and Clifford can make it right, before Christmastime tom...
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Jsrcaptain on November 14, 2020, 06:21:10 AM
It would be nice to reveal the guilty parties so they can be properly shunned and avoided. Maybe a little public disclosure will shame them into making it right. Probably not.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: edvanland on November 14, 2020, 07:53:19 AM
I agree the guilty crooks name should be broadcast for all of us to know so we don't deal with them and have to find out the hard way.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: muldoonman on November 14, 2020, 08:29:37 AM
It would be nice to reveal the guilty parties so they can be properly shunned and avoided. Maybe a little public disclosure will shame them into making it right. Probably not.

THIS!
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 14, 2020, 09:04:14 AM
They received 3000 back from the credit card company,the rest was paid with cash and debit card and you have no recourse when paying with a debit card after a few days.The lawyer wants 20 to go after 11k when they make a decision I'll post the name lol but it is a shop in Michigan and the other was on Illinois,   
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 14, 2020, 11:37:38 PM
Kind of hesitating to post but others not raising fact that owner appears could have done a few things differently. Since no background was provided which is needed before anyone passing any judgement, there are scenarios where more, detailed hovering over this transaction might have prevented this outcome.
Where was the bus before taken to shop? Was it running or broke down on road out of town? Did the owner ask around for references while shopping for a repair? Did the owner do any shopping or vetting of shops? How did the owner make payments for the repair? Lump sum upfront, some to get started, then balance at end? Did the owner keep in direct and constant communication with shop as the repair was being done or waited for call saying job was "done"? So many factors involved that it is pretty hard to know what the hell really happened. This is all second hand at best info.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: chessie4905 on November 15, 2020, 04:50:45 AM
For that amount of money, I would drive to wherever to personally pick it up. Even if I had to rent a Uhaul trailer.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: somewhereinusa on November 15, 2020, 04:59:46 AM
I used to work in a restoration shop and would get engines in a box like that. When the owner decided he wasn't going to go on they sat a box in my bay and said to put the parts in it (Maserati engine in pieces), and I no longer had a job.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 15, 2020, 07:14:31 AM
Kind of hesitating to post but others not raising fact that owner appears could have done a few things differently. Since no background was provided which is needed before anyone passing any judgement, there are scenarios where more, detailed hovering over this transaction might have prevented this outcome.
Where was the bus before taken to shop? Was it running or broke down on road out of town? Did the owner ask around for references while shopping for a repair? Did the owner do any shopping or vetting of shops? How did the owner make payments for the repair? Lump sum upfront, some to get started, then balance at end? Did the owner keep in direct and constant communication with shop as the repair was being done or waited for call saying job was "done"? So many factors involved that it is pretty hard to know what the hell really happened. This is all second hand at best info.


$#!% happens with the best laid plan Don ,the coach is a nice Custom Coach MCI or the guy would walk away,these shops now days have been screwed and want money up front then they screw you,if the owner wants the info posted he can do it because it not my place to post it and let people tell him what he did wrong,the CV=19 BS in MI started the whole thing   
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Fred Mc on November 15, 2020, 09:10:45 AM
Kind of hesitating to post but others not raising fact that owner appears could have done a few things differently. Since no background was provided which is needed before anyone passing any judgement, there are scenarios where more, detailed hovering over this transaction might have prevented this outcome.
Where was the bus before taken to shop? Was it running or broke down on road out of town? Did the owner ask around for references while shopping for a repair? Did the owner do any shopping or vetting of shops? How did the owner make payments for the repair? Lump sum upfront, some to get started, then balance at end? Did the owner keep in direct and constant communication with shop as the repair was being done or waited for call saying job was "done"? So many factors involved that it is pretty hard to know what the hell really happened. This is all second hand at best info.

I totally dissagree with a number of your points.
A person SHOULD be able to take it to a shop, get an estimate and not have to constantly check.Sure, if they said a month and its 5 weeks then check. But if your like a lot of bus owners who aren't really familiar with big diesel engines what are you gonna say other than hows my engine coming along. The key is dealing with a REPUTABLE shop.And how do you know who is reputable and who is not? By getting info from boards like this.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 15, 2020, 09:56:14 AM
I think the 1st shop would have been ok but the state of MI shut him down because of the CV-19,the bus is at WW Williams no so he was headed in the right direction IMO and they won't touch it lol but I am no Dr Phil either   
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 15, 2020, 11:42:19 AM
Fred,I agree we should be able to do many things as you suggest; however, even reputable companies and owners often achieve more benefits with more communications. Not only simply checking on progress, there are daily options and decisions being made by the mechanic and often it is subjective.

For example, as we all know, removing and tearing down a 40 year old motor brings unknowns into the light. Guaranteed, the mechanics makes a subjective determination of the state and condition of many parts, components, and systems. Flip a coin whether it is noted, recorded, and discussed with the owner who may choose to approve or deny work items not known or documented on the work order and estimate.
This topic is important but sensitive to many who have suffered from improper repairs or diagnosis done by both qualified and backyard shops. It is good to have the discussion so each busnut can simply be a lot more tuned in when taking an old bus in with problems.
In addition to doing the needed research to identify reputable repair shops is the need to better understand the nature and detail of the repair. It is the same situation why so many women get ripped off through the combination of lack of knowledge and trusting the shop whether good or bad and often times being on the losing of the transaction.

Clifford - This is one example of many, all unique due to the nature of these no longer mainstream vehicles. There are dozens of scenarios where a good faith repair goes off course or off the rails. Personally, the buyer needs to stay engaged; not doing so increases the chance of being left with a big payment for a bucket of parts and bolts. 
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Dave5Cs on November 15, 2020, 12:03:58 PM
It also seems like most people who have had problems they don't understand pull in and after they look at their engine in their Bus, they tell them it needs a full rebuild for 35 to 45 thousand and it takes 6 to 15 weeks to complete and most brag about being able to stay in their bus. We all keep asking what the Mechanic said it was and they say how nice he was but never really say what went wrong other than sparks out the tailpipe or they herd a loud bang and all the coolant came spraying out the filler tube etc. It must be nice to just have a pocket full of money and not care that they just got taken.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 15, 2020, 12:16:11 PM
dave - in fact, the ones with pockets full of money, get extremely outraged when not getting the best deal or god forbid, getting ripped off. Those not caring are digging real deep for the loose change. LOL
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Van on November 15, 2020, 03:51:49 PM
Clifford did you find the heads?
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: muldoonman on November 16, 2020, 07:43:14 AM
Think maybe if your engine goes south,  you think it's toast,  and you like your bus,  a company like American Fleet Inc.  would be the first I called. If mine blows up, it's gonna make somebody a nice tiny home. You pay the haul.  ;D
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 16, 2020, 09:38:52 AM
Think maybe if your engine goes south,  you think it's toast,  and you like your bus,  a company like American Fleet Inc.  would be the first I called. If mine blows up, it's gonna make somebody a nice tiny home. You pay the haul.  ;D


This was a American Fleet engine the gear train failed another 50D alternator got it
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 16, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Clifford
Do you have any history of the motor as it was delivered by American Fleet? How long ago, how many miles, what was wrong? Just curious as American Fleet did mine and I was under the impression these folks are top tier. don
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: muldoonman on November 16, 2020, 12:11:29 PM


This was a American Fleet engine the gear train failed another 50D alternator got it
Is that a design flaw or something else happen. Always heard they stood behind there engines.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Busted Knuckle on November 19, 2020, 05:58:36 PM
As Clifford states a 50D alternator is known for taking out the gear train when they fail. It's most likely NOT American Fleet's fault (although it could be) most times they either reuse the customers accessories like alts, compressors, power steering pumps or leaves them off for the installer to put them on. I'm sure IF YOU PAID them too, they would install NEW at an added cost!
;D  BK  ;D
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: lvmci on November 19, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
I lost my 8V92TA, sitting at a stoplight, when the alternator gave up, and that was the end of the engine, after 600,000 miles...
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 19, 2020, 08:48:41 PM
Is there any test or inspection to get some idea of a geared DN50 going bad or causing damage to the engine? If not, seems we all drive with a ticking time bomb that usually set far out enough in the future that it is often not the cause of serious engine problems.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Dave5Cs on November 19, 2020, 08:55:51 PM
Don Check out your alt because most MCI's are belt drives. At least Mine is..... :)
If not listen real close for the ticking
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 19, 2020, 09:23:04 PM
I guess I'll need to go look again. I did once before and saw no belts. The generator looked like it was bolted up on the backside. The OEM MC8 manual shows parts for both gear and belt drives, so it seems they were equipped with both.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: buswarrior on November 20, 2020, 03:59:46 AM
The switch between belt drive and gear drive alternators took place later during the MC8 run.

Worrying about the alternator specifically, without worrying in equal parts about every other way the engine can fail catastrophically is a waste of time.

20 years on the boards and this alternator grenade only starts being talked about recently?

Poop happens, just drive it.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: richard5933 on November 20, 2020, 04:01:23 AM
Replacing alternators on a revenue bus is considered a maintenance item. If you have a high-mileage bus and are worried change it out.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: chessie4905 on November 20, 2020, 04:07:48 AM
I wonder how many are installed later in life without going through the alignment process.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 20, 2020, 05:14:03 AM
The 50D has a maintaince program in the Delco manual follow it.this engine wasn't equipped with the right cam shaft for driving the 50D so you could probably say this one was on American Fleet,a bus engine is the only DD that used the cam driven 50D.Military 8v92's use a smaller alternator driven off the blower with a coupling not much happens when they go bad,DD is not the only engine manufacture that used the gear they were just slow learning CAT and Cummins tried it for a few years too with not good results belt drives are your friend   
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 20, 2020, 09:43:06 AM
Worrying about the alternator specifically, without worrying in equal parts about every other way the engine can fail catastrophically is a waste of time.

20 years on the boards and this alternator grenade only starts being talked about recently?

Poop happens, just drive it.
Now, THIS is the kind of message that brings calm and relief.  Busnuts could lose their minds and have chronic insomnia if too many of these non-critical concerns keep floating around. I have enough trouble staying on schedule of regular maintenance.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Dave5Cs on November 20, 2020, 02:29:43 PM
Yep but that helps with your OCD Don!   ;)
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Prevost45 on November 21, 2020, 07:11:33 AM
Cams are no different on a gear driven setup. It’s a gear driven accessory , driven from the rear gear case. The gears also drive the cams.any type of accessory can be driven from the gear case. The Delco 50DN can be fatal when the drive within itself fails dropping bearing pieces and its drive gears drop into the detroit accessory / cam drives sometimes destroying the accessory drive and driven cams.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 21, 2020, 08:08:08 AM
Cams are no different on a gear driven setup. It’s a gear driven accessory , driven from the rear gear case. The gears also drive the cams.any type of accessory can be driven from the gear case. The Delco 50DN can be fatal when the drive within itself fails dropping bearing pieces and its drive gears drop into the detroit accessory / cam drives sometimes destroying the accessory drive and driven cams.
[/quote

They have a different parts numbers than the US or CA cams
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Scott & Heather on November 21, 2020, 05:45:27 PM
When I just replaced the engine in my bus this past April, this is exactly why I ditched the 50DN and put a belt driven alternator on the rear accessory pulley.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 21, 2020, 10:43:57 PM
Are there belt driven alternator that produce similar current? A 50DN puts out 275 amps. Would a belt drive equivalent fit? Scott, what's the output of the alternator in the image? 
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: chessie4905 on November 22, 2020, 03:38:51 AM
that model is also available for belt drive and they also have a 450 amp version. Check the Delco Remy website. Google Delco 50dn.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 22, 2020, 04:55:34 AM
If you need 275 amps use 2-140 amp alternators
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: richard5933 on November 22, 2020, 05:10:25 AM
There are lots of ways to get the necessary amp output using belt-driven alternators. The problem is finding a place and way to mount them. Not every engine/bus is suited for this as well as others.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 22, 2020, 05:29:25 AM
I am removing the 50D from Brads 4107 and going to belt driven his is a turbo 8v71 so I need to reroute his turbo pipping
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: chessie4905 on November 22, 2020, 08:11:13 AM
Is the gear on the alternator still available with the correct number of teeth new? I've got a nos cup gear, but need the other yet.
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: 6805eagleguy on November 22, 2020, 10:17:36 AM
My s60 has a belt drive beast on the side. I think it’s a 50dn but I’m not really sure
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: windtrader on November 22, 2020, 10:30:12 AM
Final verdict. TMC '76 MC8 DD8V71n in my bus is gear driven DN50, once and for all. :)

not sure why image flipped, looks ok elsewhere. oh well
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: luvrbus on November 22, 2020, 10:44:48 AM
Final verdict. TMC '76 MC8 DD8V71n in my bus is gear driven DN50, once and for all. :)

not sure why image flipped, looks ok elsewhere. oh well


My MCI 8 had the belt drive oil cooled 50D they came both ways same as with the air filters oil or dry my filter was paper 
Title: Re: A bus owners nightmare
Post by: Boomer on November 22, 2020, 12:36:56 PM
From experience, and not opinion:  The bearings in that alt adaptor will fail before the alt bearings and also the alt should have the rear support installed in case it is not on there.
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