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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Scott & Heather on December 06, 2020, 04:45:47 AM
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Just logged back in and can’t figure out why my last thread about wintering in our bus got locked, (I think it’s my first thread lock ever) but anyway, some of you were wondering if we’d be ok wintering in the bus. BW pointed out that we indeed have a purpose built coach just for this reason. We have four (yes only four) windows two of which are small and our windows are dual pane as well. Coach was professionally spray foam insulated. We also have a double 3/4” wood floor with a 1.5” spray foam sand which in between. In addition to our spray foam insulation there is a layer of rockwool in the ceiling as well as a layer of plastic lined flooring felt in the walls. We the have a front drivers cab area sealed off with a wall and a solid wood door to keep the coach living quarters completely separate from the cab with all the glass and air leakage at the entrance door. With our setup, we keep the coach toasty (73°F) with merely two 1500 watt space heaters that click on and off happily throughput the day. One in the living room and one in our bedroom. We also have twin heat pumps in the ceiling (air command) that put out 15,000 btu of heat if the temp is in the mid twenties to thirties or more. Again, we have wintered in a record cold for michigan at -28°F and stayed completely comfortable and warm. We have one small space heater in my plumbing bay to keep our water from freezing and that is set to literally just keep temps in my dedicated plumbing bay in the high 30’s to lower 40’s in temp. When I designed my bus I deliberately concentrated 100% of my plumbing in the rear most bay for this exact reason. One heated bay does the trick. As Clifford said, if we really needed to, we could winter in Florida with Jack and Paula Conrad who are like grandparents to our little girls now or we could park in Scottsdale AZ for free too at a place we have connections with and have a free place to park in Fort Worth Texas too but for several reasons including aging family in Michigan, we need to be there this winter for now. We will enjoy it. I’m an avid snowboarder and my two and five year old girls haven’t seen real snow in their lifetimes so this will be fun.
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More photos:
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Thanks for the info on the bus Scott. I'd forgotten about all the work you did on the build to bring you to this point. Looks like you'll be comfy.
Curious what you do for fresh air exchange while the bus is set for the winter heating season. Did you incorporate fresh air vents or is there still enough leakage to provide air exchange to keep down moisture and provide fresh air?
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We did a similar build. I have not stayed the winter in Montana yet with the bus but would not be afraid to try LOL. The only weak area is the very front of the bus. Plenty of cold air comes from this area. We put our 100 gallon waste and fresh water tanks in an insulated box.
John
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We added 3/4 inch insulating board to the walls.
John
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39* in Scottsdale @ 6 AM is cold enough for me ,I have worked in -20* before that is cold to cold to be playing in for me
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we keep our bathroom vent cracked an inch or two to control moisture.
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I hate cold. The whole reason for building the bus is to be able to get away from the cold. My fond hope is to be able to go south for the winter. If I can stay above 45 degrees I'll be a happy man.
Jim
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It's going to 40 tonight so I guess Florida is out!
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But your from Las Vegas...
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this will be the first time in 20 years we have not gone south to Florida . covid covid covid
stay warm
dave
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It's going to 40 tonight so I guess Florida is out!
Just go south...er.
Jim
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I have 4 of these from a military field kitchen diesel fired I am going to carry one for emergency use they are self contained and adjustable from 16,000 btu to 60,000 btu they are light weight and only 10 inches high x 18 square one may come in handy in case of a break down
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It looks like you guys (the pictures of the insulated floor) raised the floor level a bit. No issues with ceiling heights I take it (?)
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It looks like you guys (the pictures of the insulated floor) raised the floor level a bit. No issues with ceiling heights I take it (?)
Floor heat works if concerned with the celling heights, it can be hydro or electric and takes care of the bays while heating ,I have stone floors and love my floor heat
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It looks like you guys (the pictures of the insulated floor) raised the floor level a bit. No issues with ceiling heights I take it (?)
No problem with ceiling heights as IIRC they also raised the roof during the build.
;D BK ;D
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No problem with ceiling heights as IIRC they also raised the roof during the build.
;D BK ;D
Oh, okay! I see now it looks like they raised the roof along the bottom of the window line, cutting it at the belly. Great job!
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If I was stripping out the walls, roof and floor in doing the conversion then I think I would raise the roof maybe six inches or so and consider thicker insulation. But I didn't, and I doubt I'll do another bus after this one. But you never know, do you?
Jim
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If I was stripping out the walls, roof and floor in doing the conversion then I think I would raise the roof maybe six inches or so and consider thicker insulation. But I didn't, and I doubt I'll do another bus after this one. But you never know, do you?
Yep, 6" would be all I would need. I would double the ceiling insulation, add about 1 1/2" to the floor, with plenty of room left for a couple of extra inches of ceiling height to play with.
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And pay at the pumps..>>>Dan
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And pay at the pumps..>>>Dan
You know, that's a really good point. And since I like warm so much more than cold all it does is reinforce my decision to leave the roof, floor and sides alone.
Jim
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You know, that's a really good point. And since I like warm so much more than cold all it does is reinforce my decision to leave the roof, floor and sides alone.
Jim
Same as a house, insulation in a bus conversion is about energy consumption.
The choice is how to expend labour and money, and what the payback or ongoing costs are likely to be.
Install enough btu in heating and air conditioning, the stock coach will be just fine.
For the full timer, or coaches used in the extremes of heat and cold for extended periods of time, the pay-off, same as for the traditional house, is that the costs of installing more insulation will eventually return cost savings worth, and more, the cost of insulating.
So many bus projects, the newbie reads of these matters, tears the bus apart thinking they are "supposed to" and then abandons the project with it in pieces.
One wonders if they did got off to a simpler start, whether they would still be with us?
It is very important for the bus to get used early, to solidify the reward for the pain of building, for the rest of the decision makers surrounding the "busnut" ...
Going in deep with an insulating project at the beginning doesn't endear the bus to anyone...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Not sure about that BW. We gots some builders on the five year plan so cut them some slack. We can remain optimistic that one day we will see one long term build get done and on the road.
We pretty much know why homes get piled up with insulation but at least to me going to extremes with insulating a bus offers little benefit if as you say just make sure to have enough heat and cool BTUs which seems the faster and cheaper path.
However, it is pretty easy to think about being in a very buttoned up and highly insulated bus when it is zero F and blowing 40 knots. I'm pretty sure most would appreciate zero drafts and a cozy and warm inside. And that would only be for those who need to be in that for long; i think most of us would be in the driver seat heading south to where you don't need much heat if any. see you in AZ next month guys!
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I agree BusWarrior, tearing it down to the structure, without enjoying it, on your FIRST bus, is a psychological mistake. It's a big task, at any point in ownership, but without using it first, you really don't get to know your needs and wants, just plow ahead and "Im going to put it in factory new shape," months after you start, is discouraging and leads to questioning your own motives, lvmci...
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So here we are again in the winter months when progress slows down. Between the holidays and the cold weather it's hard to get anything done, even if you do have heat in the bus. Me, I've had the cam go out in the MG and been working on getting the spare engine ready to go in and will be on that for a few more weeks since it will need new engine mounts and some mods to the intake and some general tidying up. A new engine is at the shop but that will be for later in the year sometime.
When I get back to the bus the bulkhead panels will get fitted up and installed, the doors built, and the VFDs for the jacks purchased but not installed until warmer weather. Then once the shop is clear again I can order plastic and start on the waste tanks. There is plenty to do without the extra burden of new floors, ceiling and walls, to say nothing of a roof raise and insulation. Overall it's a BIG JOB and I see no need to make it bigger than it has to be. The jacks alone were quite the option but I felt they were necessary. Now they've all three sank a couple inches into the gravel but the bus is still level. More importantly the bulkhead framing is plumb and square.
Sometime next year I'll buy a toilet, fridge and hopefully a range and can get on with the kitchen and bathroom. There's a bed pedestal and wardrobes and cabinets to build, and perhaps the title work. So by the end of the summer it might be possible to get it on the road some, although it will be far from complete at that point. We shall see about that. It'd be way ahead of schedule but maybe possible anyway.
I'll just have to pay the extra heating and cooling costs for the convenience of making the build easier. I'm OK with that.
Jim
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BW is right.
I did the tear it all down thing. I used all my time off time for 2.5 years putting it together enough to take our first trip and it wasn't yet done. Oh by the way it still isn't totally done after 13 years lol. I'm glad I went to the effort but I don't think I will ever do it again. The other thing is after you put that kind of effort into it, its hard to imagine getting rid of it for an upgrade to a newer bus. For the new builder out there know that it is a huge undertaking and one should use the KISS method of thinking.
John
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I'm currently in the middle of my "perfect insulation project" and have only put 37 miles on the bus. After all the stuff I found in the nooks and crannies of what I removed I am even more sure than I was at the beginning that it was a good idea. I found all sorts of nastyness and mold I'm glad I won't be breathing later. If I had skipped part of the demo and jumped straight to building over what was there I would have wanted to avoid tearing it out later and when(if) I ever did I'd have regretted that I didn't do it right the first time.
On the other hand I'm 25 so I'll hopefully still have another 50 years the enjoy what I build.
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I'm currently in the middle of my "perfect insulation project" and have only put 37 miles on the bus. After all the stuff I found in the nooks and crannies of what I removed I am even more sure than I was at the beginning that it was a good idea. I found all sorts of nastyness and mold I'm glad I won't be breathing later. If I had skipped part of the demo and jumped straight to building over what was there I would have wanted to avoid tearing it out later and when(if) I ever did I'd have regretted that I didn't do it right the first time.
On the other hand I'm 25 so I'll hopefully still have another 50 years the enjoy what I build.
Getting the nasty out is a good thing. I said that also. LOL
John
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Getting the nasty out is a good thing. I said that also. LOL
I did some looking and it seems I neglected to take a picture of my ceiling insulation after removing the metal. most of the insulation was entirely black and holding a pretty substantial amount of water in it. Surprisingly the structure only suffered in one place that looks to have been leaking from a badly repaired accident sometime while it was still in service. Most of the leaks were caused by badly installed and removed aftermarket crap on the roof.
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Yes, but there is a lot of difference between '64 and '96. 56 years old vs a young 24. It could be reasonable to think that methods of sealing the roof could have gotten a little better in those 32 years but even if not, you could expect less deterioration and likely less water that got in. Among the many good arguments for starting with a newer bus, this seems to me to be one of the best. For instance, I have yet to find any indication whatsoever of a single soft spot anywhere in the floor, or of a single watermark. Pepsi spills? Yeah that's not the same thing. The seat bolts were not frozen with rust, and no signs of water in the cargo bays. There were two things about the bus that I'd look at more closely in retrospect. First, the bottom ribs show signs of it having been high centered at some point, and second, the signage panel down the side has some slight rippling above the rear wheels. But not bad enough that I'm going to rip it apart. It'll be fine, I can live with it and if it does get worse I'll worry about it then. I know on older buses this is a sign of internal rust, but I've also seen one account where the panel was removed and the effort was not really justified by what was behind it.
But if it was one of those old buses, yeah a complete teardown would be a requirement if only because I would need to raise the roof to get adequate headroom. Yet another reason for the newer coach.
Jim
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most of that black is years of diesel soot and fumes just because tailpipe is at rear, it still gets althrough the body. First discovered this in the Olds diesels, of which I had a few. After a lot of miles, you could see it around the fabric. Back then, not much of a concern. You could really see it on school busses. Someone cracks an orange in last seat, you could immediately smell it upfront in drivers seat. Werent allowed to eat on the bus back then.
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by far the best thing I did with my 1990 M C I was framing out all the metal frame work with 3/8" ply and framing down the ceiling for more insulation and having the shell spray foamed at the start of the build . and yes there was little to no insulation in there from M C I
dave
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another benefit is how much quieter and solid feeling it makes the coach.
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by far the best thing I did with my 1990 M C I was framing out all the metal frame work with 3/8" ply and framing down the ceiling for more insulation and having the shell spray foamed at the start of the build . and yes there was little to no insulation in there from M C I
dave
I'm not sure that's true of the '96. It seems to have insulation. There's 3" of fiberglass in the escape hatches for instance. Why would they bother if they didn't also insulate the roof?
Jim
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there was only about 1 1/2" of crappy fiber glass in the shell , sides , roof with more in the floor but not much . as the only time the bus was used in service was when the engine was running with the heat or a/c on . not good for dry camping
dave
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That's all the S&S's have.
Jim
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maybe the shitty low end ones but not the high end built for a customer to the way they wanted it
dave
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I'm not sure that's true of the '96. It seems to have insulation. There's 3" of fiberglass in the escape hatches for instance. Why would they bother if they didn't also insulate the roof?
Jim
The '94 MCI we're taking apart had all the voids in the roof packed with fiberglass, even inside the beams. The walls are filled with preformed tight fitting foam panels. It seems pretty decent for a vehicle. (Also water leaked in apparently at the end of the rain gutters and rusted through the side panels and a tiny bit of the wall frame, so that is probably a place for you to reseal. I can send pictures of the damage if you're interested.)
I replaced the roof on a cheap travel trailer. It had about 1" of fiberglass sparsely applied. I filled the voids with fiberglass, except for one where a fan could have been mounted. That spot was hot to the touch with the sun shining down, but the rest of the ceiling was not, so fiberglass is definitely useful.
We spent a month in my 1981 MCI this summer. It feels like it doesn't have much roof insulation. I really wish it were more insulated but there is no way I'm tearing everything up to redo the insulation in the roof. If I ever buy another coach I will look for one that is partially done that I can insulate and finish or one that has been completed with good insulation from the beginning.
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20* in New Mexico this morning the CC RV with double pane windows and the foam insulation is doing ok,the floor heat is on my bays are at 76* nice inside the Aqua Hot comes on 2 to 4 times a hour for a few minutes and my engine is 130* ready to go lol Buddy the std poodle loves the floor heat I kinda like it too
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20* in New Mexico this morning the CC RV with double pane windows and the foam insulation is doing ok,the floor heat is on my bays are at 76* nice inside the Aqua Hot comes on 2 to 4 times a hour for a few minutes and my engine is 130* ready to go lol Buddy the std poodle loves the floor heat I kinda like it too
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together. Sounds like pooping in tall clover! :^
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Don't you just love it when a plan comes together. Sounds like pooping in tall clover! :^
Dan thanks for confirming my idea on the check valves the Aqua Hot hasn't missed a beat since I remounted those
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:^