BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: JT4SC on January 08, 2021, 10:10:18 AM
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For those of us blessed/cursed enough to live in CA while owning a 2-stroke, how concerned are you about our coaches being legislated into obsolescence?
It also seems harder and harder to find a local brick and mortar store selling the oil needed for my bus nowadays. Curious to see if I’m overreacting, or if this is something we all need to start preparing (selling?) for?
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Nothing I see here keeps you from moving like so many others are..>>>Dan ( That's what we did.!)
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Ditto!
Wheels man! Wheels!
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For those of us blessed/cursed enough to live in CA while owning a 2-stroke, how concerned are you about our coaches being legislated into obsolescence?
It also seems harder and harder to find a local brick and mortar store selling the oil needed for my bus nowadays. Curious to see if I’m overreacting, or if this is something we all need to start preparing (selling?) for?
There is no pending governmental activity that I am aware of that affects our old 2 stroke buses and my take is if they haven't got us yet, nothing is going to change. Percentage wise, we are in the round off error.
Oil is no different than any part for an old bus in that you need to go to a specialty outfit to find them. Interestingly, straight 40wt is found on shelves in rural parts stores as there is plenty old farm equipment still running on this stuff.
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I heard CA is requiring a"can cause cancer" label on the 2 strokes ::) Carb says you cannot have over 1 two stroke in your fleet I read,CARB does have new rules for 2021 I haven't read those yet
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Oh Clifford stop it. I soon will not live there anymore, lol
California only cares if you are driving your car or Bus down the road and it excessively smokes they will give you a fix it ticket.
Most of these Bus Boards warnings you will notice are from people who never or no longer live here. LOL :^
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Oh Clifford stop it. I soon will not live there anymore, lol
California only cares if you are driving your car or Bus down the road and it excessively smokes they will give you a fix it ticket.
Most of these Bus Boards warnings you will notice are from people who never or no longer live here. LOL :^
Like Motel 6 Dave the light is on for you guys,FWIW we have 2 counties in AZ that smog test the 2 strokes
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Like Motel 6 Dave the light is on for you guys,FWIW we have 2 counties in AZ that smog test the 2 strokes
Which counties are they? After I retire this year, and hopefully also complete my bus, I'm giving serious thought to living in AZ, maybe in the Camp Verde area.
Last December when I renewed my bus registration I found there was a CARB hold on my registration, preventing AAA from renewing it as they've always done previously. Fortunately there's still a legal go-around to get CARB-hold vehicles' registrations renewed, at least for now, so that's what I did. I do however suspect that this loophole will disappear soon, hence my thoughts of moving out of CA before next December.
John
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Which counties are they? After I retire this year, and hopefully also complete my bus, I'm giving serious thought to living in AZ, maybe in the Camp Verde area.
Last December when I renewed my bus registration I found there was a CARB hold on my registration, preventing AAA from renewing it as they've always done previously. Fortunately there's still a legal go-around to get CARB-hold vehicles' registrations renewed, at least for now, so that's what I did. I do however suspect that this loophole will disappear soon, hence my thoughts of moving out of CA before next December.
Camp Verde is Yavapai you are good,Maricopa and Pinal require smog test they are mostly for revenue 2 strokes have to be in sad shape to fail
John
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Which counties are they? After I retire this year, and hopefully also complete my bus, I'm giving serious thought to living in AZ, maybe in the Camp Verde area.
Last December when I renewed my bus registration I found there was a CARB hold on my registration, preventing AAA from renewing it as they've always done previously. Fortunately there's still a legal go-around to get CARB-hold vehicles' registrations renewed, at least for now, so that's what I did. I do however suspect that this loophole will disappear soon, hence my thoughts of moving out of CA before next December.
John
Is your bus registered as a motor home? Last time this conversation was had I remember RVs not being subject to CARB, so I'm wondering how you got caught up.
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Nothing I see here keeps you from moving like so many others are..>>>Dan ( That's what we did.!)
Family and my business keep me here. Plus it’s the most beautiful state with the best weather and no bugs. But we’ve got absolute wackos running the place. It’s frustrating.
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VERY odd a diesel bus registered as a "house car"/RV /motor home would get caught up with the standard CARB regulations. Here is the exemptions clause:
Who is excluded from the rule?
This regulation does not apply to: (1) Vehicles subject to the solid waste collection vehicle rule commencing with title 13, CCR, section 2021; (2) Vehicles On-road diesel-fueled heavy-duty vehicles over 14,000 pounds owned or operated by a municipality, as defined in title 13, section 2020(b), that comply with the Best Available Control Technology (BACT) requirements of title 13, CCR, section 2022.1(a)(1); (3) Vehicles subject to the fleet rule for public transit agencies commencing with title 13, CCR, section 2023; (4) Vehicles subject to the rule for mobile cargo
handling equipment at ports and intermodal rail yards commencing with title 13, CCR, section 2479; (5) Military tactical support vehicles, as described in title 13, CCR, section 1905; (6) Authorized emergency vehicles as described in California Vehicle Code (Veh. Code), section 165; (7) Off-road vehicles equipped with engines subject to title 13, CCR, sections 2401, 2411, 2421, 2432, and 2449; ( 8) Dedicated snow-removal vehicles as defined in section 2025(d)(18)(15); (9) Historic vehicles as defined in section 2025(d)(41)(36); (10) Motor homes for noncommercial
private use; (11) Except as specified in section 2025(l) vehicles subject to the regulation for drayage trucks commencing with title 13, CCR, section 2027 until January 1, 2023; (12) Trucks with a GVWR of 19,500 lbs or less with pick-up beds used exclusively for personal use, non-commercial, or non-governmental use; and (13) Except for two-engine sweepers, other two-engine on-road vehicles that are subject to title 13, CCR, section 2449, including but not limited to, water well drilling rigs, workover rigs, and cranes, in which one engine provides the motive power for the vehicle and a second engine is an auxiliary engine 50 horsepower or greater that is
integrated into the design of the vehicle and provides power for the vehicle to perform a specialized function.
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This topic is one of many reasons that one should belong to an association that stays on top of developments, and intervenes in the planning stages. It is too late, by the time the stuff gets written.
Problem is, what is that association that is staying on top of this, for campers, in California?
Advertising revenue from new vehicle manufacturers drives legislative agendas...
Who is making it their business to watch out for busnuts?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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At one time FMCA had a strong lobby effort, not sure if that is true any longer. They do list a Governmental and Legislative Affairs committee in their published information, so I assume something is going on in that regard. At one time bus conversions were a much larger share of the membership, especially in the early days.
You can find who's lobbying in California here: http://cal-access.sos.ca.gov/lobbying/ but it's not that easy to find out what/who they are lobbying on behalf of. I did not see any entries that were easily identifiable as working on something related to our concerns.
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CARB changes rules and don't even have the published changes for several years ,we have old buses park in storage yard here in the Valley from people that live in CA ,a friend of mine in the wrecking business in CA when he get a 2 stroke in he has to destroy the block.it's only a matter of time before the 2010 engine rule hits the RV's.
It's not just CA I am working on my last year of a contract for a cell carrier and they are replacing all the 2 stroke powered generators in Texas the oil field has already changed not many 2 strokes left there either,the largest customer for the DD 2 strokes is already gone the US Military and DD and the new owners 2021 is the last year for parts some DD dealers have already stopped the support ,we were told 15 years ago the end was coming and I ignored it too
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I figure most bus nuts don't think this way but as far as we're concerned, after 40 years of same bus ownership some of it full time and most of it "an investment" as all the per diem was pocketed due to the bus option - if the day comes where regulations, fuel prices, etc., etc. Is too much a hardship - we will just drive it to a good resting place & park it for a tiny home.
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I know it's possible that CARB can change things, but right now it's just conjecture unless you've heard something about them pulling the exemption after more than a decade.
There is no way to predict lots things that may affect our buses in the future or what new regulation may come around regarding them.
If I lived in California I'd be contacting whatever RV owners group there is out there to see if any lobbying efforts are underway on this. There can't be more than a few dozen two strokes out there in motor homes right now, so I just don't see this as a target worth going after.
Will parts become more difficult with support from DD stopped? Of course. Remember though that there are still aftermarket channels out there, like the ones still supplying parts for cars which were manufactured 60+ years ago.
Unless something has changed, 2-strokes in California can still be sold if the buyer is out-of-state and certain requirements are met. I looked into buying one a year or so ago and the seller tried to explain to me all the details. It sounded difficult, but not impossible.
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The aftermarket parts made off shore for the 2 strokes is pure junk I won't waste my time or the owners money installing the junk it pissies you off when the box says made in the USA and contents have made in China on the sleeve and piston set, I came across doing a piston in series 60
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Come on guys! I had to reread the original post for reason for all the hysteria about our old 2 strokes buses. I'll take any bet that our exclusion will endure until well after we are all dead and gone.
The only reason we (2 stroke bus conversions and RV) were addressed at all was that CARB had to account for all vehicles falling under this vehicle classification. Remember, the reason for any of this was to get gross pollution emitters off the road.
It looks like ONE person actually read the document that I posted. Open and read that PDF and this second one too. It will stop the confusion once and for all.
The entire deal was to target commercial vehicles and get them off the road in a planned and staged manner. Read the exclusions in both documents.
There is no need for any lobby as there is nothing to lobby about. Old timers may have better ideas of how involved the RV industry was with shaping the rules back then. They had a reason to lobby to make sure the impact on their industry was minimal, even though the larger 2 stroke units were are small part of the total production.
Others can provide insight to the situation today but I suspect any new large 4 stroke diesel pusher needs to follow the standard issued CARB standards for regular commercial vehicles. I'd bet the RV industry does pay to watch for any new regulations that affect the industry; it just does not seem emissions is a battleground any longer. I'm sure vehicle safety standards is on their radar.
Please take a toke or a drink and relax while watching the sun set at the beach or desert.
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I'd say that so long as CA is loaded with rich people and classic car collecting remains a rich people hobby, there probably won't be anyone in the recreational categories getting kicked off the road. There are people with way more money and time than us folks making sure they can still cruise around in ancient vehicles.
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I'd say that so long as CA is loaded with rich people and classic car collecting remains a rich people hobby, there probably won't be anyone in the recreational categories getting kicked off the road. There are people with way more money and time than us folks making sure they can still cruise around in ancient vehicles.
These are the mother's skirt that we will hide behind. Until some bureaucrat slips some words into a document, and nobody is there to yell to remove them.
When your life is based on an exemption, it is folly to assume it will continue, without attention. Bureaucrats hate exemptions in anything... trust us, we're from the government...
Regular encouragement to one's camper association to stay engaged, so their lazy asses don't stop paying attention...
Silence is the biggest danger.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I don't doubt that recreational owners of 2-strokes are well below the radar of the politicians. However, a significant portion of the menace of government comes from unintended consequences. The danger is some green-eyed lobbyist having a "wonderful" idea to further limit emissions from commercial vehicles but, once passed into law, the bureaucrats realize the way it was worded, it isn't actually limited to commercial. But, no one is going to vote to change it for fear of running afoul of the green police. Oops...
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I'd have to agree with Buswarrior on this. I'd ad that keeping our buses as smoke free as possible is also an important strategy. All it will take is for one bus blowing coal directly in front of an enterprising (though well meaning I'm sure) legislator on his way to work for the guy to suddenly link the pieces and make the corrections. Sort of like the look on the face of my old cat when in his youth he caught his first bird. Jack
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xXT2tC1/250.jpg).
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There is over 60 years of CARB ruling it would take years to read the stuff,they don't enforce RV engines much but they have plenty of loop holes when and if they decide too LOL why would Detroit build a engine just for CA in RV's use with special cams,injectors, positive crankcase ventilation, catalytic mufflers and Walker catch can for the air box drains,they can get the 2-stroke engines anytime they choose ,like Dave said they will give you a repair ticket for smoke in a RV when that happens here I just make a air gap adjustment for the people and send them on their way make the engine a dog though
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Please provide the political rationale why resources, time, energy would be spent on targeting our nearly invisible numbers? I agree totally our tiny safe haven can be inadvertently caught up in a larger political and law changing issue.
There simply is no interest to pursue us - identify a single company funded lobby or politician or special interest group that gives a crap about old converted OTR buses.
As to blowing smoke down the road. Really? Maybe around Q you'll see some but out in the wild on any average metro area, how many old bus conversions do you see? Right, hard to make an argument out of thin air. In the grand scheme of things we do not exist.
I assure you massive battles are being fought between governments and automakers over how current road infrastructure funding needs to change as every single new EV escapes paying fuel taxes that maintain and build roads and bridges. All the battles in the domestic petroleum production fields is another one; huge money and huge global impact. Examples like this illustrate the magnitude and breath of change where things are headed.
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LOL makes no difference in 15 years CA is going to total electric or Hydrogen if your governor has his way,there hasn't been any diesel trucks allowed in the ports in CA in several years only CNG powered trucks
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Nope they tried Hydrogen when Arnie was in office here. He got it stopped because he found it wouldn't bring in enough revenue and the car makers would only make really small cars to test.
So now it is electric and flex fuel. When the experiments fail they just raise the Taxes if the people vote it down they add it to the price at the pump.
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I wonder how and when CA an other states will start taxing the Telsa charging stations
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I wonder how and when CA an other states will start taxing the Telsa charging stations
If EVs take off and become a larger chunk of the US 'fleet' I'm sure that something will be done, and not just in California. Of course, electricity is already taxed in most places so they'll have to figure all that out so we're not double taxed.
Federal fuel tax hasn't been raised since 1993, and that was long before anyone had an inkling that EVs would come along like they have.
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Back in the 70's wasn't it when Ford tried it with the Electric cars and then when the batteries went and it was a lot to replace them we saw many of them stacked up in wreaking yards and no one wanted them.
We already are double taxed and triple taxed on everything.
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It isn't about targeting, it is about getting swept up in careless wording.
The old days are gone, the sloppiness of legislative writing is an historical embarressment to those who went before.
We will be caught out by ommission, not targeting.
That is why quiet, patient vigilance is required by a paid observer.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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It isn't about targeting, it is about getting swept up in careless wording.
The old days are gone, the sloppiness of legislative writing is an historical embarressment to those who went before.
We will be caught out by ommission, not targeting.
That is why quiet, patient vigilance is required by a paid observer.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Agree with this. Someone needs to read every bill proposed. They have a habit of sticking stuff like this in the oddest places and with bills that are not related in any way.
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You have to keep in mind that politicians and lawmakers are some of the wiliest people on the planet, they have an agenda they are pursuing that may not be either honorable or legal, and they are accomplished masters of obfustication. The end result of which is not hard to predict.
Jim
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The solution to financing the DOT budget will not stop at taxing charge stations. As stated before more electricity on the grid will come from residential PV roof tops. I guess the high power car chargers could be mandated to include a meter that is connected to the tax man but it is something to ponder how EV will get whacked by the tax man.
One other obvious place once the momentum crosses the point of no return is to screw you at the DMV. Just tack on a grand or two at registration time.
One thing is certain. Roads cost money and the government will find a way to extract it from us one way or another.
I'm just going to keep building ebikes. screw cars.
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How about a horse or a camel?
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The problem about taxation for vehicles isn't where they get their electricity. The problem is that we now have vehicles using the roadways which use various fuels - they are not all using a petroleum product, and up till now the road taxes have been paid based on fuel consumption.
The taxes on fuel are nothing more than a use tax. Long ago they figured that the number of gallons used was a good indicator of the number of miles driven and how much you used the roads. That calculation no longer holds.
I predict that in the end we're going to move to an actual use-based tax - the more miles you drive the more you pay. Don't drive much, then you don't pay much.
With the technology in vehicles today it would be quite easy to transition to this kind of system moving forward, and I'm surprised that we haven't heard more talk of it than we have.
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I think the fact we are a small, nearly invisible group makes legislating our busses out of CA much easier, not the other way around. Some *cough*leftist*cough* politician trying to gain the admiration of environmentalists could point to their ability to close emissions loopholes as a badge of honor. We are low hanging fruit in this regard.
This kind of politician doesn’t seem too far-fetched to me, considering all the other nonsense Sacramento comes up with.