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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Jim Blackwood on August 19, 2021, 09:18:07 AM
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I've heard for decades that Elkhart Indiana is more or less the RV manufacturing center of the universe and that it is a good place to look for RV components of all types. Happily it's just a couple hours drive from me so I'm planning a trip and want to profit from your advice as I've never been there.
I'm asking you to name names and give locations where surplus items may be found at a good price. Below is a partial list of the type things I will be looking for:
Range (gas)
Oven (electric)
Sink
Refrigerator (gas/electric)
very large capacity propane bottle (100 gal)
Toilet (ceramic bowl RV type)
Bathroom sink
Water heater (gas/electric)
12v breaker panel
control center (tanks, etc)
furniture
cabinets
I don't really expect to come back with everything on that list but I'm taking a trailer just in case. It's more on the order of a shopping list. For example I do not expect to find any cabinets that I want to buy but I would like to look at some while I am there. Ditto the propane tank but you never know. Any other suggestions are most welcome.
Jim
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Ickes rv in Montpelier ind will be on your way. They are also a surplus dealer and have little of everything. They also have trailer loads of tanks in the back.
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Thanks Gary, I'll look them up. Anything else spring to mind?
Jim
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I haven't been to one in years, but they know the items worth so big items, little discount. Expect to find a lot of furniture, scratch and dent, decals, electrical items like lights. Lot of oddball odds and ends.
I would hesitate to buy a refer or ac unit there. No way to know how much its been banged around. If it fails early, warranty claim may be difficult or impossible. Still, it's worth a stop. Please report back
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A lot of the RV surplus places seem to have closed over the years for whatever reason. Way back in 2006 I went to a number of them, but I also found that a number of them on various lists had closed. It is unclear if RV Surplus Salvage is still open to the public or not.
Bontragers is a good spot, but it is quite a ways north of Elkhart in Michigan.
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they will definitely pop up when the rv market collapses in next major recession. Also check out Facebook page. May be some being parted out due to age or accident.
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We were up there 4 years ago and everyone told us they were all closed. But Elkhart was cool.
There is a RV salvage yard I think in Missouri. And it has thousands of acres of RV's that were in Accidents, Fires etc. Lots of them. Some Buses also.
https://colawrvsalvage.com/
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Hey Jim,
I fear your trip may be hampered by closed stores due to Covid...again. Georgia is seeing more "breakthrough" cases and I would bet my TPMS system they are about to jerk the kids out of school again. Too many kids, at least around here, getting sick. We were going to a local rally here in 3 weeks and it just cancelled. Getting tired of driving the bus an hour up the highway just to run it, but this thing is not the sniffles. They started offering 3rd shot boosters for elderly today. We are taking Rita's Parents (90 years old) for shots on Monday.
Dammit.
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Jim, I posted some pics last summer of my visit to ickes. Search ickes rv on this forum if my link below doesn't work
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=34872.msg400672#msg400672
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I made this a few years ago showing all I knew at the time. Some have closed since then.
http://www.somewhereinusa.x10.mx/surplus.html
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Lots of surplus indicates wasteful manufacturing decisions.
With the consolidation of the RV manufacturers, and much more capital with slimmer margins, and primarily accountants paying attention, the conditions of years ago are unsustainable.
Lots and lots of used, but new surplus is not what it used to be...
Oh well...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Actually used is OK if it's not beat up or uncleanable.
Jim
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As a builder. You will find the scratch and dent places have limited supplies. As a industry we are short on parts. Lots of lines were shut down because of covid and the major lack in parts coming from China where 95 percent of the products come from. Do not be surprised they don't have what you need. I was at a few of them a few weeks back. Fridges were a bust as were toilets but I found them. Only one of each. Customer had no options. I have had those items backorder for a year plus.
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Try Bontragers in White Pigeon, Michigan.
I'm stuck near Elkhart now, as I STILL wait for my bus to finally get completed. I feel like an Admiral waiting in dry dock!
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I sent Bontrager's an email, we'll see if they reply. I've been running searches for fridges. If I had 64" of height to work with I'd probably already have one but I'm limited to 60-7/8". Norcold seems to have made a lot of models that are 59" or so tall but I've not run across any kind of deal on one of those yet. It would seem to me that if there's an RV boneyard fridges should be a fairly common item there. Just need to find that accessible boneyard within driving distance of Cincinnati.
Jim
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Have you tried the Amish in Shipschjwanna. They can make you one to fit.
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I bought a lot of stuff in the past from Ron the bus nut in Spencer Iowa.I think he has passed away and the kids sold off the business he had everything from engines and chassis parts up
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Have you tried the Amish in Shipschjwanna. They can make you one to fit.
I just installed a new Amish-built cooling unit in the Dometic in my Airstream. Seems to work better than the OEM cooling unit ever worked. They make good stuff.
If you can't find a working fridge to fit, likely if you find a decent carcass you can install a new cooling unit and possibly a control board from Dinosaur to make it cold again. A non-working carcass should be nearly free.
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I've been running searches for fridges. If I had 64" of height to work with I'd probably already have one but I'm limited to 60-7/8".
Jim -
I put one of these in my MCI. Granted, a residential 120vac unit, but we were always hooked to a powerpole or had the genset running, so that wasn't an issue for us. It also uses so little energy that it could easily be powered off of a decent solar setup. This unit fit perfectly into the cabinet vacated by the 120/12 fridge, and had almost double the interior space. Added bonus is that it was 1/3rd the price of a replacement 120/12 "NeverCold"
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Magic-Chef-10-1-cu-ft-Top-Freezer-Refrigerator-in-Black-HMDR1000BE/302245062
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
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I'm watching Marketplace and Craigslist. Norcold made a bunch of them that were 59-7/8" tall, the 24x24 versions were 8 cu ft so they shouldn't be that hard to find. Got an inquiry on one right now for about $200. That's a great price but involves a drive to get it. But that is acceptable. Paying 5 or 6 bills locally is acceptable. Paying the Almish $1500+ probably wouldn't be, and certainly a retail price of 3-4 grand is out of reach. Later on after we are using the bus if we decide we need a larger fridge (not that likely really but if) we might consider a custom built wide cabinet fridge. But not right now while I'm funding the build solely on my own.
I've considered the 120v units but I may not always have a hook up and I'm not quite ready to go solar. That's an entirely different category of investment and really I'm waiting for the roll-on thin film that applies like a wrap to become available at an affordable price before I do. Once that happens I expect to be on board, but probably not until then. In the meantime, I'm perfectly happy with the efficiency of a propane fired refrigerator and it fits in with my propane generator and the gas range top I expect to buy. Heat will be via Eiberspacher (diesel).
Actually, my lot in West Virginia is shaded and has no utilities at present so there you go. Reason enough.
Jim
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RJ that is the only fridge I ever used one needs to run the ac units to make it cool enough to work, it tells you in the instructions not to build those in and install in a area where the temps are not above 82 degrees.I am glad yours worked mine was a piece of junk so was Tom and Doreen Caffery
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I...Paying the Almish $1500+ probably wouldn't be, and certainly a retail price of 3-4 grand is out of reach. ...
Jim
Your prices are way higher than I've paid. The cooling unit I just installed on the Dometic was bought from https://www.rvcoolingunit.com for only $650 delivered. Add to that the $150 for the new Dinosaur control board and I'm in for only $800 - about half what you mentioned. This place sells units built and/or rebuilt by one of the Amish companies, and from the forum comments I read through they've been doing this for a long time with good results. He's got a bunch on sale right now as well.
Finding a non-working but cosmetically intact carcass shouldn't set you back much at all if you needed to go this way to make one that worked.
A guy could easily build a custom absorption fridge from an Amish cooling unit and a couple of panels from Dinosaur (control panel + eyebrow panel). Seems you have the skills and material availability to conquer that pretty swiftly if you wanted to go that route.
Our Vitrifrigo 12vdc compressor fridge was only $1750 delivered, brand new.
Not sure where you're shopping, but you might want to shop around.
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RJ that is the only fridge I ever used one needs to run the ac units to make it cool enough to work, it tells you in the instructions not to build those in and install in a area where the temps are not above 82 degrees.I am glad yours worked mine was a piece of junk so was Tom and Doreen Caffery's
Cliff-
Maybe mine worked because I mounted three 12vdc computer muffin fans on the back floor behind the fridge blowing upwards using the dedicated 12vdc circuit from the old NeverCold. That way there was always airflow in the cabinet, which had vents at the bottom and top.
Since I sold the bus, I don't know if John's had any issues with the fridge, haven't talked to him in awhile. . . My current coach has a residential GE side-by-side that's going on 28 years old and still working fine, other than it's an energy hog and the space utilization is atrocious.
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We have the side by side Amana it takes 3 amps,I don't care for it since it a cabinet depth but Sonja like the cabinet depth fridges
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We have the side by side Amana it takes 3 amps,I don't care for it since it a cabinet depth but Sonja like the cabinet depth fridges
Is that 3 amps AC or DC? If it's AC, how much does it draw your batteries down through the inverter?
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Is that 3 amps AC or DC? If it's AC, how much does it draw your batteries down through the inverter?
It is a AC fridge the Silver leaf shows 3 amps on the AC side it doesn't seem to draw the batteries down much.I have 4-8D lifeline AGM batteries for a battery bank.When we are off the plug the inverter is set to draw 10 amps max
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I am going to shipshewana in October. JC Electric. Great system many happy with. Too many I know with new rigs and the Norcold and Dometic in new ones having too many problems. Going to bet on JC in October.
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Might be worth a trip to JC Electric Jim. They are relatively close to you. I will be driving from and hour north of Atlanta to go there. About 9 hours and get there including the joy of Cincinnati coming and going but it can't be worse than Atlanta. I've talked with them 4 times. A human always answers the phone. They have a 3 year warranty with 3 more for $100. Guys I talked to that have it say their system uses less energy, ice cream rock hard, fridge stays colder at higher setting. Less electricity needed and they trouble shoot any problem over the phone. I can't get good parts anymore for my 40 year old dometic like my friends with new rigs, can't get in to get service. AllRV places are slammed and they look at my 40 year old fridge and just walk away. JC will keep my fridge but replace all the gutts for about 1000 dollars. They have a video on how to do it yourself. I'm not that good so will be paying the 400 to have them do it. JC has 3 places to park with I think 2 30 hook ups first come. They hard schedule you and it usually takes half a day.I am staying with electric/propane option. Don't want solar panels and a belly full of battleborn just yet. Best of luck
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So where is this JC Electric?
I don't have a fridge to convert and I'm not ready to build one so that may be above my price point but it never hurts to have more information.
By the way, where would be a good place to find older type range tops and water heaters? The burners are crap on the newer ranges and have no heat in the middle, and I like a pilot light type water heater because you always have warm water on the hot side with a pilot light.
Jim
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Just looked at my notes. It is JC Refrigeration, not electric. Sorry.
6495 W 200N, Shipshewana Indiana. Not far from Elkhart. They have a website and answered many questions for me promptly, or you can call Jarrin Miller at 260-768-4067. Not sure if they have their own fridge? I think they mostly re-do the whole back of it. They make the thing they install. You are not slave to trying to get Dometic or Norcold to fix it. It is heavy duty. I'll shut up and let you ask them all your questions. They may also have a line on other things you are looking for.
Best regards,
Ted
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I was given their name by 2 or 3 board members. They also have an add in FMCA if you have a copy laying around. Great people to talk to. Family run.
Good luck
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Thanks. Shipshewana is 4-1/2 hours out, RV Cooling just below Memphis is about 7-1/2 hours so an easy choice there. Looks like a side trip with Ickes and Botrangers (or whatever)
I'll also ask my brother Andy who he knows up there since he used to hang with the Menonites.
I'm just guessing they may be a little happier with the old non-electronic controls.
Jim
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JC Refrigeration is the largest of at least a few RV refrigeration places in that immediate area
I think most ownership/management between the businesses are kinfolk. JC wouldn't touch our small obsolete fridge but the one down the street did as they had a nos cooling unit that would fit our need. JC does the newer bigger stuff. We stayed in a real nice RV park less than a mile away 50A hook up. We rolled the bus & toad right into the shop behind a personal residence on a fine farm on the w/e. We pulled the fridge out with the aid of a farm hand & dropped it off at the shop. They called us Monday at the RV park & told us the fridge was finished. Picked it up, installed it & onward to the 2nd AK trip in 2019. It's the coldest of any absorption fridges we have ever owned attributed to as the Amish put it "their own recipe"! That was one really cool experience - Shipshewana - the whole place...
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Good to know. I'm still trying for that $200 fridge, at least I did hear back. If it isn't quite up to snuff maybe the Amish will recharge it for me. Has a door that matches my woodwork too which is a plus. Downside is the drive, about 2-1/2 hrs away.
But even if I do get that one there are other things I need so that trip is still on. Be nice if I could go up for a couple days but maybe, maybe not.
Jim
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Picked up that Norcold today. Looks pretty good. About a year old, 8 cu. ft., will fit under my bins with 1/4" to spare. Apparently still under warranty as well. So why was I able to buy it for $200?
It seems it doesn't work on 120v and the owner just replaced it and had no clue about the electrics so he offered it up for sale. Supposed to work correctly on gas. With a little luck I should be able to hook it up to a propane bottle tomorrow and see. Then look at the 120v side.
I did a good bit of driving today, probably about 500 miles in two different directions but I got the fridge and also a roll-top desk which I think will make a nice work area in the bus. Took the day off from wood working. Back on that tomorrow.
In a few days I'll start to move on to the other items on the list. A range top and a sink and a water heater are probably next. Those will be a challenge to get right.
Jim
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Dinosaur sells the 120 boards and there is also a fuse that sometimes goes out on those boards.
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The 20 dollar heating element goes bad to, or the mickey mouse slide switch on the panel,it has to have a good 12v supply also to change over.When he does his testing and has a code it may be nothing except the board needs resetting with a jumper
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The 20 dollar heating element goes bad to, or the mickey mouse slide switch on the panel,it has to have a good 12v supply also to change over.When he does his testing and has a code it may be nothing except the board needs resetting with a jumper
That 120v heating element is a common problem. Same for bad connections. Easy to troubleshoot the 120v side with a multimeter to determine where the problem lies.
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Did a few checks. Applied power and got no lights and the pwr button does nothing apparently. Checked fuses, there are 3 of them, all 3 checked good. Pulled the leads for the heating element and it reads open so that's a problem. There was some black gunk on the leads of U7 on the board right above the power plug. Cleaned that off but couldn't see anything. Got a regulator on it ready to hook up a bottle. The model is NA8LX. Next is to detach the board so I can inspect the back side and pull the heater shroud to inspect the element.
Wish it had an icemaker but for that price I can't complain. I do have an old GE icemaker but no ice bucket.
Jim
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Still takes 12v to the controls doesn't it
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Taotronics makes a nice tabletop icemaker. We bought one before we started our cross countrytrip. This thing works great, and use it about every 3 days to fill up two or three gallon freezer bags and store in freezer. Available from Amazon. Absolutely love it!
https://www.taotronics.com/products/tt-ic002-electric-ice-maker-with-scoop-basket
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The gas burner runs but the fridge doesn't get cold. I seem to remember something about not laying them on their sides. I had to do that to bring it home. Any of you guys know about that and what it does?
Jim
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The gas burner runs but the fridge doesn't get cold. I seem to remember something about not laying them on their sides. I had to do that to bring it home. Any of you guys know about that and what it does?
Jim
Start the burner run for a couple of hours then tap the coils with a rubber hammer and most of the time they will start circuiting again and cool
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After hauling one on their side place upright for a couple days to avoid getting a vapor lock.
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/showthread.php/21078-Burping-the-Refrigerator
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I'll try the rubber hammer today. The new heating element will be here in a week.
Jim
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Any gurgling noises while the burner is fired up?
Any other parts of the cooling unit getting warm/hot while the burner runs?
Likely a reason the unit was offered for sale.
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I haven't noticed any gurgling noises. I put the insulated jacket back on the burner tube to see what difference it might make and now I have a little heat in the top condenser. Almost hot on the infeed end and almost room temp at the other but still a little warm. Not warm anywhere else.
I tipped it about 20-30 degrees going counter-clockwise from the top and did 10 cycles all the way around (for the number of coils in the big tube condenser) and I've been whacking it with the rubber hammer every time I walk by all up and down everything but no results so far. Put temp gages in both compartments and they haven't moved.
But, you know even if it doesn't respond and worst case I have to shell out $600 for a new cooler assembly that's still only about $900 for an essentially new fridge including the gas to go get it and the cost of the replacement heating element. I think I could have done much worse. I'm not the least bit afraid of swapping out the cooling unit (although maybe I should be) and I'm thinking maybe if I take it with me up to Amish country they will be willing to recharge it and set it to rights as is. The one thing I don't know yet is if the control board will still run the heating element in 120V mode but I'll find out about that in a week.
Jim
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Starting to cool some now. Freezer compartment is down in the 30's and fridge has dropped about 5 degrees. Got it set on 9, I'll see how low it goes. Still banging on it some.
Jim
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When I fired up my Amish-built replacement cooling unit, within three hours the freezer was down to 5F and the fridge to 45F.
You might get some more time from this one, but I'd be making plans so that it can easily be pulled back out for a new cooling unit.
Nothing to be afraid of - the replacement went pretty straightforward
and is something you should have no problems with.
Never heard of anyone 'recharging' an ammonia-based absorption fridge.
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The Amish Tech that worked our fridge told me they're charged with 350 psi pressure and can have a small pinhole leak & leak literally for many months before showing signs of less cold. The cooling unit they put in mine was a new unit under warranty that got returned because of a pin hole leak. They welded it up, repainted it and told me it would outlast the oem Dometic cooling unit. I agree with Richard on the ease of replacement of the cooling unit & short time it takes for cool cold freeze down... Really the only time leaks (ammonia oder) can be detected are when they're in the part of the cooling unit that's in the cooling cabinate otherwise its outside in the vented area where it's difficult to detect. Not saying it's leaking but just saying...
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I ran it for a few hours yesterday and it got down to under zero in the freezer and about 45 in the fridge. Left it on overnight and it had an FL error this morning, Cycled power and went again. We'll see later today how it does.
Now in my DL it will sit above the fuel tank and the right side compartment of the battery box where the Vanner sits. So I'm wondering about going through the floor into those areas for the lower vent. And how do you guys deal with the upper vent? Looks like it would come out on the curved section of the roof above the window.
Jim
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they make those roof vents and they don't care if they have an angle. Take a look at the roof vents used on rv's and tt's. I think the one on my tt is something like 2 1/2 x10? opening.
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You're going to want the rear vent to provide access to the rear of the fridge for routine maintenance and service. Without it, you'll have to pull it out every time you have a problem or need to do anything (cleaning, etc.)
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A tiny 12V computer fan just blowing upward just below the hottest coils across the back upper area of the fridge's vented area is the ace-in-the- hole for keeping fridge interior temps real cold in real hot ambient temps - trust me it helps tremendously...
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I think this thread is sort of in danger of wandering off topic but as it stands after running on propane for 5 hours the freezer is about -5 and fridge is 40. That seems OK for 90 degree weather I think. I'll do more testing when the electric element gets here. Might start a new thread for installation.
But next up, what do you guys think would be the odds of finding a good usable old school water heater with manual controls and a pilot light? Any thoughts on that one?
Jim
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I have a current Suburban 6 gal electric/propane one in our 2020 travel trailer and it works fine, with no issues so far. But an electric 12 gallon one is hard to beat. Just sits there quietly working.
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...But next up, what do you guys think would be the odds of finding a good usable old school water heater with manual controls and a pilot light? Any thoughts on that one?
Jim
Why pilot light? They're a PITA compared to a properly running electric ignition.
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Why pilot light? They're a PITA compared to a properly running electric ignition.
They all have pilot lights the electronic is for lighting the pilot light,I have had the igniter go bad and use a propane torch to light the heater till I replaced the igniter unit
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Why pilot light? They're a PITA compared to a properly running electric ignition.
There is a lot of redundancy built into our conversion - lots of time for overlap on a coach with 42 years of ownership..two of our appliances are pilot lights absolutely no electric needed to run. Pita! NOT
One is an lpg radiant Empire furnace & the other is a 6gal lpg water heater of 1970s vintage and both run better than when they were new. Of coarse they're redundant to newer electronic ignited Atwood Excaliber forced air furnace and a 20 gal 120V water heater but when boon docking or dry camping guess which ones are being used with much pleasure and independence from solar, battery banks, or genny?! Pita! NOT...
I guess we took that one personal.
It's all good. Redundancy redundancy redundancy... :^
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There is a lot of redundancy built into our conversion - lots of time for overlap on a coach with 42 years of ownership..two of our appliances are pilot lights absolutely no electric needed to run. Pita! NOT
One is an lpg radiant Empire furnace & the other is a 6gal lpg water heater of 1970s vintage and both run better than when they were new. Of coarse they're redundant to newer electronic ignited Atwood Excaliber forced air furnace and a 20 gal 120V water heater but when boon docking or dry camping guess which ones are being used with much pleasure and independence from solar, battery banks, or genny?! Pita! NOT...
I guess we took that one personal.
It's all good. Redundancy redundancy redundancy... :^
Didn't mean anything personal Dan. With vintage equipment like you have, it is truly possible to run with a pilot and not have to worry about electronics going bad. Somehow I thought that we were talking something newer in this situation, something which will likely have electric/electronic controls whether or not there is a pilot or ignitor.
I like redundancy too, but on something like a water heater there is very little to go bad with the ignition system that $20 won't fix, other than the main board. And, if it's the main board then likely it wouldn't run if it were a pilot unit either unless it's one as old as your Dan.
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I had a Norcold in my Eagle and didn't want it on a wall or cut a vent hole in the side of my bus so I cut the vent in the floor to draw the air through the fridge but I still had to have a roof vent and never was happy about that,but the fridge worked like a champ for years
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Here's why I like the purely mechanical (pilot light) water heater controls: Yes I know that's old tech. And compared to current electronic igniters it takes a bit more effort. And sometimes the pilot blows out when travelling. But there is a payoff, in fact several. First, say you make camp, light the pilot etc,etc. Not using hot water yet so the control is set to "pilot" only and you've gotten back from your initial explorations. Want to wash hands? Your hot water tap is the right temperature right out of the spigot just from the pilot. That's a very nice convenience. Then you want a shower? Switch on the main burner and you'll hear it when it shuts off, telling you your shower is ready. If you've fitted the electric heater element as well you can turn that on at the same time and do two things. First it cuts the warmup time in half, and second , with both gas and electric running it extends the effective capacity of the water heater, making a 6 gallon seem more like a 10.
I just don't think you can do any of that with the modern "improved" water heaters.
Jim
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Mine is electronic. Its usually on electric for plugging in. For propane, just flip rocker switch to dsi and it makes heat, no pilot light to deal with. Reefer is Norcold propane/110. When at campground plugged in it automatically changes to 110. When unplugged/ automatically switches to propane and indicator light changes from green to yellow. We run on propane going down the road. If propane goes out, light will change to red. This unit works great, even in the 110 degrees in AZ, Ca, Co, etc rock hard freezer and cold reefer comp. My 12v/110 Norcold never got that cold in hot weather. Had to use fans to keep fresh foods cool enough.
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Mine is electronic. Its usually on electric for plugging in. For propane, just flip rocker switch to dsi and it makes heat, no pilot light to deal with. Reefer is Norcold propane/110. When at campground plugged in it automatically changes to 110. When unplugged/ automatically switches to propane and indicator light changes from green to yellow. We run on propane going down the road. If propane goes out, light will change to red. This unit works great, even in the 110 degrees in AZ, Ca, Co, etc rock hard freezer and cold reefer comp. My 12v/110 Norcold never got that cold in hot weather. Had to use fans to keep fresh foods cool enough.
It has a plot light to heat the thermo coupling to open the gas valve,I haven't looked a 2020 model though,but I have 2 electronic controlled heaters and 1 has a pilot light and the other has a glow plug type ignitor that really sucks I have changed the ignitor twice in 3 years
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Many of the propane water heaters with electronic ignition also have dual power and can make hot water from 120vac, propane, or both for even faster hot water.
The only loss would be the lukewarm water, but to be honest in warmer weather the water in my tank is usually plenty warm to wash hands as is.
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The DL has a diesel fired boiler use it they make hot water in seconds on demand
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I will be re-plumbing the Eiberspacher boiler but not for hot water. I expect at 80K+btu it would do a fine job at that though. I'll be using it for heat. The water heater has no need for that massive capacity, it would be rather severe overkill. And that's the whole point about the pilot light. For washing dishes and every other use you have for hot water it is just fine up until you need the shower. And it's there all the time without either having to wait or burning excess gas that you don't need to be burning to keep the water hotter than you want it anyway. Sort of the low tech answer to the instant water heaters.
So is there a modern water heater that runs a pilot light? Maybe lights the pilot with an electronic spark igniter? I'd have no problem with that, maybe even could tolerate an electric main burner valve.
Jim
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They still make the RV water heaters with standing pilot lights.
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OK, that's good news. The kind I like to hear. Just be a matter of finding one then, and since I'll have a standard front load washer on board I'll probably want a 10 or 12 gallon one.
Next up: Ranges, specifically gas ranges. Not interested in inductive, infrared and all that. In my opinion they are still trying without too much success to emulate a gas cook top. Now granted gas stovetop makers have been making it easy for them with these burners that only heat the outside of the pan. Whose bright idea was that? Gas burners used to have flames all the way to the center. Even the cheapest tin RV and campstove burners made did that, but somewhere along the way (maybe the 80's, it seems everything bad happened in the '80s) they lost all contact with reality and common sense and decided fire on the outside of the pan was the next great idea. It wasn't. It was horrible. But Monkey See Monkey Do, and now that's all we have. Anyone know of a gas stove top that has a proper flame pattern?
Jim
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Ten gallon is about the largest traditional RV water heater that I've seen. If you plan to do laundry, then perhaps you will benefit from a small 10-gal electric unit in series with the propane heater.
Not sure you're going to find what you want with the gas range. They stopped putting the flame in the center years ago, and unless you have really thin/cheap cookware you shouldn't notice that much of a difference. The burners on the RV stoves don't have that big of a burner and the flame hits most pans somewhere towards the middle of the radius. The only time it's a problem for me is using my moka pot for coffee since it's only 4" in diameter.
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They still make the RV water heaters with standing pilot lights.
Yes they are still made with no electronics I installed one when Sonja van heater starting leaking, lol cost me over a 100 bucks to find out to much propane pressure will blow the gas valve on a new unit, that valve is touchy and exspensive
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Hi again Jim,
I thought I had my gas valve solved with my nearby RV guy. Dometic stopped making what I need years ago. RV guy pulled one from an old fridge, but the one in my bus has a larger line coming into one end than the little one going to the burn tube. He backed away from wanting to touch it. After market for the real thing was $350 but is an "all sales final" place. (that one probably leaks like mine) or $500 for "new", but 2 people told me that place is an unreliable source. So if I did the $500 and paid probably $200ish to have it installed, now I am 700 into it. I won't attempt it myself. I am older now. I won't work on 220 electric, natural gas of any kind, and the big spring above the garage door...
And after staring at it, other parts of the back of my 40 year old fridge look rusty and questionable. I feel like I am just digging a money hole on a "maybe this will work".
Watching Utube of newer RVs going around America demonstrates the new stuff has plenty of problems as well. So I am going to bail on Dometic and Norcold and gamble on something I hear works well. I will drive up to Shipshewana, spend the 1000ish for the Amish to fix me up, 3 year warranty, 100 bucks gets you 3 more, and they answer the phone when I call. Last part of that was my decision maker....
You have to do what works for you Jim. Some like all electric and there is merit to that ( no "boom" sounds) and others including me and Chessie want to keep the electric when plugged in and propane rolling down the road. I've always had that and I just like it. The Amish folks I am going to (JC Refrigeration) tout the all electric that uses less energy. Probably responding to the solar panels, battle born in the belly bay trend, but they will still install the dual system for people like me (probably after rolling their head a little). So on your fridge and water heater things, if you like pilot lights, get one. It is good to gather lots of ideas and opinions before you spend money. But remember the best opinion at the end of the day is yours. And if it was wrong, be sure to let us know....
Ted
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With the 11 gal. marine 120 v water heater and the diesel boiler I have the boiler cycles off after 6-7 min. ( from cold ) and the water in the heater is hot and I can shower as soon as I want and as long as I want than if on the pole I use the 120 volt for hot water .
works for me and is the best water heating system I have ever had
dave
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Don't tell my wife that. I'll have to get one....
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Don't tell my wife that. I'll have to get one....
I had to make the system myself as the old aqua hot was a bad design and I went from that to make my own with a new better boiler and off the shelf all aluminum marine water heaters . faster and much more efficient
dave
dave
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I don't want the water heater to be too big, next thing you know I'll be running a water line. Seems most of the washers these days will do a hot or warm wash/cold rinse and I can only carry so much water. I do remember the days when a 6 gallon water heater was something of a luxury. Much preferable to a Solar Shower if any of you remember those. A bag you laid in the sun with a little nozzle attached to a plastic hose, hoist it up in a tree on a rope? Wouldn't want to go back to that but it's nice to know it's always there if it ever comes to that.
I installed the new 120v element in the fridge today and fired it up. Happily the element gets hot so the board is working. On gas it got down to 27/-10 before I quit testing, I'll let this one go as far as it can. But Good Fridge. For under $300 total, great fridge. Just need to get the upper and lower trim.
About those range burners: Yes, it does very much matter if the flames go to the center of the burner. I do have a favorite iron skillet I cook with but you might be surprised at how thin the bottom actually is. And stainless pans, even copper bottom ones will still perform poorly when you have the flames climbing the sides of the pan. Makes me wonder who here really learned to cook and who depends on wifey.
The whole point of a gas burner is that you have instant and very precise control of the heat. If you are going to cook in a cast aluminum pot an inch thick then anything will do and you might as well go with all electric. But if you prefer gas it should be assumed that you do for a reason and the reason is that you want to put exactly the right amount of heat exactly where you want it exactly when you want it. If that isn't the case why would you even bother?
Stove manufacturers have been taken over by bean counters and bean counters do not understand fine cooking. Burners should be designed with the advice of experienced Chefs, not some little college grad who thinks he can shave a nickel off the manufacturing cost. Where you want the heat is where the food is. Exactly under it in a nicely dispersed and even pattern. Not some godawful thing that is cold in the middle and hot around the edges. They used to know how to do this. Back in the days when burners were made from cast iron, the flame pattern was carefully considered. Each individual flame was precisely located and sized, the pattern was even, and there were no dead spots. It was understood that these were the standards that burners were designed by, and people were paid good money to come up with superior patterns. Now all of that has been lost. Nobody even cares anymore, and our dining experience suffers as a direct result.
Jim
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cooking has gone downhill too. majority don't do a lot like the use to.
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...Stove manufacturers have been taken over by bean counters and bean counters do not understand fine cooking. ...
Jim
A salesman at an appliance store once told me that the secret to a good chef's stove is not the one which can make the biggest flame for fast boiling, it's the one which can hold steady the smallest flame for simmering.
I think this is what you're looking for. Unfortunately, you might need to look beyond RV cookstoves for this as they're not really designed for much more than boiling water or heating beans. There are some nice 2-burner residential gas cook tops which work on LP - that's where I'd be looking if a quality stove is in your sights.
I looked at these 2-burner hobs when we were setting up our coach and found that some don't need electric to run at all. You can light with a match, or some had an ignitor that worked from two D-cell batteries.
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Richard, had you intended to include a link with that post?
To be honest at this point I'd be happy to find a single well made burner and build my own range around a pair of them.
What you say about the low setting is pretty accurate in a way. That usually means a large burner and a small one to cover the full range of heat that you need. It would take an exquisitely well designed single burner to throttle back to the least amount of heat and still be able to output the max, and yet give even heat on the bottom of the pan over the entire range. Beyond a certain limited range from min to max I doubt it could even be done without staging the jets in some way. Like I said before, the people who used to design burners were at one time very, very good. True Artists in some cases in fact, and we are all poorer for their loss. Perhaps there does remain a small niche market of cooks or chefs who will accept nothing but the best. Maybe there remains a single old school manufacturer of such ranges, probably at exorbitant expense. In a practical sense though it probably means I'd have to dig up a 60 year old gas stove and cannibalize the parts.
Jim
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consider inductive cooktop or single "burner"
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Richard, had you intended to include a link with that post?
To be honest at this point I'd be happy to find a single well made burner and build my own range around a pair of them....
Jim
No link was meant to be there. Just search for 2-burner cooktop and you will find lots. The trouble is separating the junk ones from the decent ones.
If you want to do your own thing, hit up a few antique stores and see what they have. I've seen lots of apartment sized gas burners in the vintage/antique stores over the years.
Here's a great example of a burner designed for big & small pots - I've got one of these out in my barn I used to use for canning.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324767225092?hash=item4b9da29504:g:2UoAAOSw0ORhHqiI
The problem with using one of the vintage style cooktops as a starting point though is that they have none of the safety features such as auto shutoff of gas when the flame goes out. Also no ignitor, but that's easy to overcome.
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We have and really use all the time an Atwood 3 burner with oven. We only use cast Iron pans etc. and in the oven we put in a square pizza stone and now biscuits and such don't burn on the bottom. Then we use outside the two burner grille as well as a Pit Boss two burner gas Griddle. Made a wind surround for it and we can use it in any weather. we also have and again use a Hobe electric both outside and inside.
We make beans in big pot every week with ton of veggies in it as well as ham. Shrimp, tuna steaks, sausages, and again lots of Caramelized veggies on the flat top griddle, Steaks on the grill as well as hot dogs steaks etc. Wife make homemade soups in winter and freezes them. So it is possible to do with good equipment but not restaurant quality all the time.. :^
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We have and really use all the time an Atwood 3 burner with oven. We only use cast Iron pans etc. and in the oven we put in a square pizza stone and now biscuits and such don't burn on the bottom. Then we use outside the two burner grille as well as a Pit Boss two burner gas Griddle. Made a wind surround for it and we can use it in any weather. we also have and again use a Hobe electric both outside and inside.
We make beans in big pot every week with ton of veggies in it as well as ham. Shrimp, tuna steaks, sausages, and again lots of Caramelized veggies on the flat top griddle, Steaks on the grill as well as hot dogs steaks etc. Wife make homemade soups in winter and freezes them. So it is possible to do with good equipment but not restaurant quality all the time.. :^
A guy can get hungry reading these posts! Our three burner Atwood with oven replaced what we never thought we would - it was a four burner Frigidking with stove. The Atwood is convenient with the manual spark igniter - turn the knob type but the real surprise - as we always thought the Vintage 73 Frigidking was the greatest was the burner flame of the Atwood, ie: stove & oven burners. Like Richard mentioned - the flame is much more uniform & consistent - hard to explain but the Atwood flame isn't As big & bright as the Frigidking but better cooking across the spectrum. On high & on simmer. We always thought we were downgrading going from four burner to three - never used all four at once and realized how much better large pots sat on the 3 burner stove. We are very happy of the change. We also carry the marine LP grill that we use on the boat bow rail bracket. We actually use the grill on the dinosaur Coleman folding aluminum stand under the awning in inclement weather. Notice how I didn't mention food! Already got something in the pot from reading the previous post! 8) :^
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Richard, that cast iron burner is more along the lines of what I've been talking about. Notice the air hole in the center, a feature of nearly all good burner designs. Personally I don't care much about the safety features, but I suppose if you had it on low, went to sleep with the windows and doors closed and a gust blew out the flame and then you never smelled the Mercaptan in the propane you might care, if your gas detector didn't scream loud enough to wake you up. Guess we need a law.
Anyhoo, Don, what was the model of that Atwood? We had a 3 burner in the Coachman and it did pretty well although I'd have liked to seen a bit more on high heat. Of course that rig was made in about '75 and while the burner design wasn't the best it was way better than they are making now.
I like the looks of the burners on this unit:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383533562636?hash=item594c61bb0c:g:NAcAAOSwcrJdqRGW
8 stubby little arms for the gas jets and a central vent hole. It needs refinishing but I have some excellent sprayable ceramic coating I can use on it so I bought it. It'll need a stainless pan to sit in, I can make that and some sort of a cover. Add a piezo igniter and I think we're good.
For an oven, I think modern is good. One of my brothers has a nice combo oven/convection/microwave all in stainless that I want to take another look at.
Jim
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Our Atwood is coincidently got the word Wedgewood in it which ironically was the model name of the four burner Fridgiking Stove/oven we replaced. I think Atwood may have taken over the Fridgiking line. The model is: Atwood 52222-A 21 Inch 3 Burner Wedgewood Vision Range Oven. I forgot to mention that of the three burners the two side by side towards the rear of the stovetop are the same size burners and the one burner centered toward the front of the stove top is a larger burner with more BTU for larger pots which is another nice feature. We purchased the unit new in June of 2012 from American RV Co. for $370. I see it runs in the mid $500s now. :o It has been serving us well - wifey likes it & that's what matters...
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This'll keep me busy for awhile I think. I've whittled down the list a bit. What I have now is:
Water heater (using the Eiberspacher in the system is a thought, more designing needed)
Kitchen and bathroom sinks
Toilet
Shower pan and enclosure
Propane tank
Sealed AC compressor units
Let's move on to the AC compressor units since that's going to be the most controversial at this point. What I'm looking for are the sealed units like are used inside residential air conditioners. They have to run r134, should be powered by 120v, be as efficient as possible for the cost, and able to use soft start. Then there is the size or capacity. Here is where it gets interesting. What would be ideal is an 18000btu 120v compressor that can be run off a single 30A shore line and leave enough excess ampacity to run the fans and the usual other RV needs. Three of those would do the trick I think.
Any ideas?
I'm sort of leaning towards mini-split condenser units as possibly the best overall compromise.
Jim
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This'll keep me busy for awhile I think. I've whittled down the list a bit. What I have now is:
Water heater (using the Eiberspacher in the system is a thought, more designing needed)
Kitchen and bathroom sinks
Toilet
Shower pan and enclosure
Propane tank
Sealed AC compressor units
Let's move on to the AC compressor units since that's going to be the most controversial at this point. What I'm looking for are the sealed units like are used inside residential air conditioners. They have to run r134, should be powered by 120v, be as efficient as possible for the cost, and able to use soft start. Then there is the size or capacity. Here is where it gets interesting. What would be ideal is an 18000btu 120v compressor that can be run off a single 30A shore line and leave enough excess ampacity to run the fans and the usual other RV needs. Three of those would do the trick I think.
Any ideas?
I'm sort of leaning towards mini-split condenser units as possibly the best overall compromise.
Jim
You can do like Custom Coach did and build your a/c units from off-the-shelf commercial refrigeration parts. The condensing units on my bus are what you're typically see sitting in the basement of an old restaurant, and the evaporator unit is what you'd see hanging in the cooler. They used really basic components for controls, including a heavy-duty contactor run by a line-voltage thermostat. With the proper thermostat, you can use those components to do room air conditioning instead of keeping the beer cold.
I've got two of these units, and each will use about 13 amps running. The compressors are Copeland 120v units and I can easily run one off 30-amp service with lots left over.
Essentially, Custom Coach built some homebuilt mini-split units, but they are mini-split units that have performed well for 46 years with only minimal effort in maintenance.
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Kinda what I have in mind really. The bus already contains an excellent condenser that'll handle over 12 tons of cooling. It also has three 1-1/2 ton evaporator units which with only a little re-plumbing can be made use of. That leaves only the compressor(s). Leaving aside for the moment the discussion of why AC compressors can be run in parallel, it's pretty clear to me that the system I have in mind will work and with the right compressors I can build a staged system that will allow me to use the system normally OTR and then run one to three of the smaller on board units when parked. Those would be the dash air and the two bin air units. So optimally I need three 18K compressors. And a sealed unit like those used in roof air or mini-split look like reasonable choices.
Jim
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Just got the 3 burner range. Bit rusty but the sand blaster will take care of that. Below is a photo, banana for scale ;)
I cleaned up a burner and a grate in the bead blaster. I think it'll look pretty good with the ceramic coating. Thinking about taking one burner and plugging half the orifices for a warmer but I'll see how well it throttles down first. I have one broken grate, which I can either repair or replace with a 1/4" brass plate, but that sort of negates the advantage of the gas burner in the first place.
Jim
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Looks like a great start. Did you see if the orrifice is sized for natural gas or LP? When I got the one in the barn it was set for LP but I was planning to run NG so it had to be drilled out.
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Based on the jet sizes I'd say NG but I haven't looked at the orifices yet. Those could be reduced for propane. Once I have it cleaned up and painted I'll test it out and see.
I've been looking at RV toilets. I want one with gravity flush, porcelain, standard height, pedal flush and an elongated bowl. Both the Dometic and Thetford have a number of bad reviews for substandard parts and/or quality control. Presently I'm leaning a little towards the Thetford.
My impression at this point is that here is another item where I will have to just pony up the money and buy new. Anyone care to state your preference and why?
Thanks,
Jim
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New isn't that expensive, especially if you take into account the possibility of having to buy new flush valves for a used one. Only used I'd consider would be from a rig which was new and only used a short time before being wrecked.
Not sure I understand the excitement over the porcelain either - yeah, it's more durable and you can scrub it without having to worry about scratching, but to me it's unnecessary weight and expense. Lots of options for simple gravity drop toilets in the traditional plastic.
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Our 1979 Sealand porcelain bowl is as new as the day we bought it. The plastic bowl in the prior class C was cigarette burnt by a visitor in short order. Just saying.
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If someone smoked in our bathroom there would be a burn mark in the toilette and a bullet hole in the bathroom door.....
A used toilette? Are you kidding me? Ick factor alone I'd say go new. We had 3 RVs with plastic bowls and too hard to keep looking good. Go porcelain. It doesn't weigh that much more. We all like to save a little money but treat yourself on this one...
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I did. Thetford #34431, ceramic oblong bowl, 17-1/2" tall, foot pedal, hand washer, white. Similar to the replacement one we bought at Camper's World when the one in the Coachmen needed replaced. Just a smidge under $300 with shipping. Had generally good reviews.
There remain a few items from my original list but I've got enough to keep me busy for awhile. Need to let the bank account recover a bit as well.
I'm still planning to make the trip, primarily in order to search for the propane tank, but also a water heater and a few other odds and ends. Won't be for at least a couple weeks though and maybe longer.
Jim