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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on September 07, 2021, 06:30:26 AM
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Attention all Bus Conversionites.
I am putting together a presentation of the Do's and Don'ts of Bus Conversion Design for an event coming up later this month.
Please help me by listing the things that you would look for if you were looking to buy a converted bus or what you would do or not do if you were starting to convert a bus from scratch.
I have a long list of ideas after reading every issue of Bus Conversion Magazine myself and seeing several poor design ideas on social media, but there may be things that I have missed. I am looking for your ideas as well to round out my list.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi;
Outline things for a basic electrical house system. Also include info for a 12v and 24vdc system.
One vs the other.
Merle ;)
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If you are building from scratch, make sure the shell and windows are sealed so they don’t leak. Easy to do with a garden hose or pressure washer when the shell is empty, you can see the leaks. Cheers Raymond
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' Three things I would place above all else when in design phase would be::
#1. design for minimum impact damage.
#2. design for minimum fire potential.
#3. design in escape methods. ( include sealing the traditionally front door, and move it to behind the front wheel.)
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The reason I included the door mod is due to an accident We were involved in, ( with our 4106 ) that jammed the door and forced us to evac. out a window.. It would have been extremely difficult if fire had been involved..>>>Dan
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Check for RUST, then check for RUST again...
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Don't permanently cover any access panels during conversion which you may need to get into in the future!
Should be an obvious one, yet seems like a common mistake.
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The reason I included the door mod is due to an accident We were involved in, ( with our 4106 ) that jammed the door and forced us to evac. out a window.. It would have been extremely difficult if fire had been involved..>>>Dan
When our 4106 was involved in a head-on collision with a Honda, our door was also jammed closed. Fortunately the previous owner that did the conversion left an escape window in the front parlor just behind the passenger seat. Was pretty easy for us to be get out quickly.
I'd say that moving the door isn't necessary, but having some viable means of getting out quickly is.
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We've maintained all the emergency escape routes that were oem design and not changed during conversion. That today yields us the regular entrance door, the rear emergency driver's side door with steps (added), two swing out large sliders on PS (one is blocked by an awning arm the other deleted & paneled for the bath) and one DS large slider (the other two were deleted & paneled for the kitchen). Plenty of fire extinguishers inside & out. Spare tire always as we go deep and don't care for the wait for roadside assistance. Roadside emergency kits for marking the shoulder/lane for safety. Very important are fire detectors, LPG detector, and CO detector. Label as much as possible - not just switched but everything within reason as down the line - memory fades not to mention aids for first responders, to list a few...
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Don't start with a old wore out bus is the best plan for anybody,conversion parts can always be found,the drive train is a killer on most budgets
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The first thing I tell anyone is to do a wire schematic on all changes they do to all wiring (12 or 120v). Can save hours years down the road when something goes wrong. The second is when building think how easy it is going to be to remove/repair down the road. It’s amazing how many time things are built/installed with no thought of removal.
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My bus was done when I got it, so I asked my 90 year old in laws who did 30 years in a 4106. They converted some of it, had some done by a shop that did buses.
Mom said: Number one complaint from the women that usually goes "un fixed" is a place to rest their feet! Does not have to be a fancy tuck under the seat or pop down from the dash. But SOMETHING!"
Dad said: "keep wiring simple and if you live where it is cold, be able to drain all water lines and the water heater." He also just did one big tank instead of black/grey. It was a big steel tank his friend welded up for him.
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I'm not done with my build yet, but here are a few I've learned already:
1. K.I.S.S. - I have already run into several instances where I was seriously overcomplicating the solution to a challenge, and ultimately landed on a painfully simple solution.
2. Be flexible - (This is probably related to #1) I think many of us have probably done a good bit (maybe years) of planning before we started work. But when you are actually doing the build, sometimes being ironclad to the "plan" can create un-necessary complexity in actual execution. I try to focus on the functionality I want to have, not necessarily the plan I had for getting that functionality. That way, when the plan won't execute the way I envisioned, I don't get stuck trying to force my plan. I can step back and re-think how to get the functionality I want, not necessarily how to make my plan work.
I also agree on the egress planning. I decided I wanted multiple egress points no matter what the position of the bus in the event of an accident. So, I kept both roof exits, and three of the four exit windows.
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Figure out how many wires you are going to run for lighting, power outlets, new controls you may want to add; new relays, new sensors, etc. Then double that number of wires you run. Ready to build, double that number again. Can you control everything in the basement, engine compartment without going outside in a driving rainstorm at 2 in the morning?
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Ditto, why do busnuts insist on building the coach electrical where you have to go outside in a storm, to change the configuration, when the campground power goes out???
Start a revolution, put that stuff inside!!!
And, don't disable the coach during the build. Nothing keeps the support for the dream alive better, than using the coach.
Many, many abandonned projects were undrivable, and the dream died.
Are we getting honourable mention in the credits of this exercise?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I totally agree with BW on keeping panels inside for easy inside resetting especially in inclement weather and again on using the bus during your build. btdt
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I would just like to see the buses finished more get set to bus scrap yards than the ones finished by far.I bought a MCI for friend that was for sale,the owner paid 15k for the bus and purchased a new 12.k generator with inverters,water heater and every thing to finish and gave up.I paid him less than what he paid for the bus shell for all of it.LOL I seriously doubt my friend will finish it he may surprise me but I have my doubts,it is his bus now so I am not going to worry to much
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A real, practical listing of the cost involved to convert one. (ranging from DIY to paid shops).
It saddens me to see so many people who don't realize how much it costs to service a heavy vehicle.
Parts availability will be an issue for some models.
Oil changes are in gallons, not quarts.
One can easily spend over $500 for a complete set of new lugnuts - now add wheel studs . . . Not to mention brakes & tires.
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A real, practical listing of the cost involved to convert one. (ranging from DIY to paid shops).
It saddens me to see so many people who don't realize how much it costs to service a heavy vehicle.
Parts availability will be an issue for some models.
Oil changes are in gallons, not quarts.
One can easily spend over $500 for a complete set of new lugnuts - now add wheel studs . . . Not to mention brakes & tires.
Changing the fluids in the fan,engine,transmission,generator and engine and generator antifreeze with filters I am at 1200 bucks material only plus 2 days labor and 1 trip to the ER for 5 stiches :P on my coach .Cummins $500.00 bill for oil,filters on the engine and generator is looking good right now
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And, don't disable the coach during the build. Nothing keeps the support for the dream alive better, than using the coach.
I just picked up a pair of new batteries, windshield is replaced, a little work on the leveling system and I can put insurance on it and get it titled and licensed. Toilet was delivered today, sink won't be here for a couple or three weeks, reconditioning the range now. Then I should be able to tick all the boxes for an RV title. Realistically it'll be at least a month or two and may be next spring before a maiden voyage can happen. By then I should have the waste tanks done as well. I haven't moved it for awhile. But there isn't a whole lot of driving I can do before I have tags. There is a little catch there in the RV title requirements.
Jim
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Surround yourself with others who know more than you.
This forum is a great start. However, I have a good mechanic that allows me to bounce ideas off of him
A friend of mine who is a welder at GE and basically reminds me of MacGyver.
Two electricians that make my head hurt when they are talking to each other about MY bus.
And another friend who poo poos my bad ideas (he has a bus too).
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I've had 4 RVs, but this our first bus. We have it almost a year, and boy are they different. I ALWAYS seek counsel from the two old bus guys we know from Rita's dad's bus days. They had shops and were no kidding real bus mechanics for a living. I hope they don't die....
Some conversions like Jim Blackwood's won't be done for a while, but run everything you CAN once a month. Old bus guys tell me "Get it on the road once a month if it runs, even if it is just for an hour".
Run EVERYTHING. I check engine oil and then start it. I start the generator and while rolling we run the one bus heater (propane), run the two roof airs at the same time. Run the dash heat and then air. Turn on the water heater. Run both water pumps in all spigots. Doing more than just starting the engine (go somewhere) also gets all the engine stuff up to pressure and temperature. It exercises the wheel bearings, tires, air bags etc etc The old guys tell me to basically try to run everything you would use on a long trip. Check headlights and blinkers.
On these short runs, I have discovered a leak here, an indicator light for the H/W heater burned out. A leaky water line that runs from engine to dash that we replaced. When I get home and engine is hot, I check trani fluid.
So.....I really do feel like I could fire it up today and head for Montana. Something will break, but it won't be 7 things. As you convert, keep trying exercising what you think is done. The bonus is that when the conversion IS done, you will be used to running all this stuff!
That is advice from two bus mechanics. (I am not one....). But is has served me well. Both mechanics said "Worst thing for these old buses is to sit.".
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I can see this on the Prevost conversion craze. People are doing whatever in the financing department to get one. THEN realize insurance, fuel costs, maintenance costs are more than they can afford. Expect to see many more for sale in a couple of years. Problem I can see is first to save money, they will avoid necessary service on them, like not changing oil, etc. Amazing how many you see for sale with relatively low miles with "new engine installed".
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All buses for sale have new engines with less than 10,000 miles you notice that John :^ but fact is buses are killers on engines they just don't last long back there.Four strokes last longer when you get around 600,000 on series 60 in bus you better start saving your money the, 2 strokes are usually gone at 300,000 miles
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Gary is gonna shoot us and dump our bodies in the desert for scaring off all potential tire kicking busnuts. Many, including me started off with the dream of DIY converting a bus into a custom RV. For those doing research soon find out how much of everything it takes to do one A to Z. There are a few unicorns that have the perseverance and tanacity to do it. Jim is a regular here and makes regular progress but still a long way from realizing his vision. We all hope he gets it done and life doesn't throw a curve. Still, for nearly all, do some deep soul searching, wake up, then just buy an already running converted bus and go on a road trip.
DIY or bought you can't escape ongoing costs. Even knowing what was involved upfront, it still is eye opening and wallet-busting to deal with keeping it on the road. Yes, everything is gallons, not quarts. Doing a full tread upgrade is as much as buying a commuter car for the college-bound kid. Parts and service are a hunt. The list goes on but this is going OT.
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Buses are not for everyone for sure
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I'm talking about Prevost conversions that aren't that old or high of mileage. Run low on oil or overheated seems common. those 8V-92's on high horsepower settings seem to be hard on bearings.
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We started traveling in our bus in 2004. We have redone many parts and one complete clean up. One new motor and trans (by B&B) and use it three to four times a year. When we start driving we take note of how long we travel before "The List" starts. Sometimes before we get out of town and sometimes after we have traveled for a day. We kind of have a permanent list that is really a "Wish List" and sometimes things get finished from that list but the other list is for things that need to be secured changed and added. Drawers and cabinets that don't stay closed window coverings that rattle broken window latches etc. We do once a year annual maintenance. Engine oil trans oil generator oil check all batteries complete lube and adjust the brakes (also adjust brakes between MAJOR trips). We use tire monitors and battery voltage monitors. We have fun as long as we use it and we add and change as we feel the need. We don't have a stove and we don't use propane. We had a smooth electric cooktop we were going to install and after storing it for three or four years we sold it. For heat we use electric cube heaters and thermometer and compass. If it gets cold where we are we need to head home or go south. Just our way but that is the thing about a bus conversion. Do what works for you and be sure to get it on the road regularly.
Melbo
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>...be sure to get it on the road regularly.
With that thought in mind, I've gotten back on the control wiring for the leveling jacks. I have the HVAC ducts off and that is a good place for the wiring and I have a 100 ft roll of extension cord cable to connect the 3 phase motors to the controllers up front. The 3 controllers (VFDs) will fit snugly under the driver's armrest, a nice convenient spot, with 3 of my spare inverters nearby and a couple of bubble levels. I need current limiters to complete the picture and connect everything up. Can't move the rig until the jacks can be retracted.
As for my perseverance, here's a taste. First my personal vehicle, a 1971 MGB that I've owned since 1978 or 79:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,274
And next a project car I spearheaded:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,166
Be forewarned though these threads cover a lot of years and a great number of posts. Something like 35 pages and 132 pages respectively.
I didn't undertake my bus conversion lightly. It started as a 5 year project and I do still have some chance of making that goal.
Jim
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Jim, the 2nd link is the same as the 1st.
Quite a project car you have there!
My first car was a 1948 MGTC right hand drive. My number 2 son has my dads Jaguar XK120 FHC. In 1959 my dad did 140mph at Bonneville with the Jag. Drove it up and back with averages of over 100mph average between towns in Nevada. Lovelock to Winnemucca; Winnemucca to Elko. No speed limits in those days.
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Fixed I think. It's a car we built as a community project to promote creativity among the youngsters. It's been on tour for over 10 years now.
Jim
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Ditto, why do busnuts insist on building the coach electrical where you have to go outside in a storm, to change the configuration, when the campground power goes out???
Start a revolution, put that stuff inside!!!
And, don't disable the coach during the build. Nothing keeps the support for the dream alive better, than using the coach.
I have an automatic transfer switch so I wouldn't have to go outside to switch to generator, but I never park at a campground so that is a moot point. My power panels were down below for the first dozen plus years I owned my bus. The only reason breakers ever had to be reset was due to low voltage issues with my previous generator. I just finished up moving my power panels upstairs. I hadn't put them upstairs in the first place due to space constraints.
My bus has been in various phases of construction since I got it. However, other than the first year I owned it the bus has been used every single year. My bus has never done less than 4,000 miles per year since 2007 and has averaged 5,000 or more miles per year since 2007.
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Gary Hatt is wise beyond his years grasshoppa....
He will edit out all of the "Don't do it...run for your lives". "Having a bus is expensive and it sucks". I learned that. Still have one. I have fixed a few lights and hoses on the bus, have a fridge problem that won't be cheap to resolve, but every time I walk outside and see it in the driveway, I smile! I Just think "How cool is THAT. A Prevost that is 35 feet! No tag wheel! Didn't even know they made them this little and without mirrors in the ceiling, a fireplace, and a TV that comes up out of the floor. And when I fire up that 6V92 and watch it air up. Feels the same as when I fired up a fighter jet in my very younger years. It is just cool. And it cost less than a new pickup truck!".
I've mentioned I'm planning a trip to Indiana soon to get the Amish fridge. Something will break coming or going. That is what they do. Parts are harder go get, but we work it out.
Our 2 year old Allegro bus in a year of full timer use broke too. Levelers wouldn't go up. Next trip wouldn't go down. Slide wouldn't go in three times. Water heater blew. and, and, and.
I am probably not very smart because I can't wait to get this 40 year old bus on the road to Indiana. Something will break, slow me down. But not going to sit here at the house and wait to die.
Back to Gary's request: If starting from scratch, try to put in cabinets that can take a full sized plate. Have all doors able to secure so they don't open and if you can, they don't rattle. We put the cool new stuff like our TPMS and Nav aids on Rita's side (passenger). I have to watch temp and oil gauge and thanks to texters, the road so much more in this bus. Let your passenger take that load of the new toys. We just ordered a dash cam to take away the argument on who hit who. Keep all plumbing as close together as you can and try to keep it out of exterior walls. Before you get one, now matter how good the deal...where you gonna park it?
They are expensive to keep, but at age 64 with no kids and no grandkids to worry about, kind of starting to think "We are not rolling in money, but how much money do we need when we are dead?". Life is not a rehearsal. Some people in later years blow a gazillion on lots of cruises. Some save it for the grandkids. To each his own, but I really like working on and just seeing this bus every day. Doing what Jim is doing, if it is fun, does it matter if he never goes full time on the road in his bus? He may look back and find that the journey to getting it road worthy might be the best part of the journey.
I hope there will still be some younger people (that have money) that accept the cost of insurance, tires, gallons of oil changes, rising parts prices etc and for some reason think these old buses are just cool. It fear it may be all that will keep a few of them rolling down the highways...
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I agree with the keep it useable part.
When we started with a seated coach the overwhelming size of the project was intimidating.
We stuck with the axiom of, how do you eat an Elephant, One bite at a time.
So every project we do is another bite out of the Elephant.
If you focus on the end of the current project and not finishing the entire bus you will be much better off.
Early on the wife set a goal of the minimum function we needed to go camping.
The list: Working Toilet, Sink with running water, Bed, Refrigerator, some electrical outlets and an Air Conditioner (we live in Florida)
That’s what we worked for, the rest was made up with folding tables and chairs.
The first trip it wasn’t pretty, but it was functional, we had a great time, and it keeps getting better with every enhancement added.
The folding tables and chairs have slowly been replaced with Kitchen counters, cabinets, permanent seating, Dining room table, sofa, recliner etc.
My suggestion, get it usable as soon as possible keep it usable and use it as often as possible.
On the design and building aspect, one of the unexpected items was that the design of the entire interior was designed around the toilet, it needing to be directly over the Black tank and the rest took shape around that.
Wire and Plumb everything before the insulation and walls go in.
Because we started using the Bus at such a minimalistic stage we were able to figure out a lot of what would and would not work and where to locate some things and other things that were included in the original design that were not needed.
Peter
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As much as I do enjoy the design process, it is all about being able to use the bus. Again, there are minimum requirements and they vary from person to person. If a 5 gallon bucket in the bay under the toilet is adequate that will do to begin with. That can very certainly be made to work.
In my case when the bus rolls out for the first time I want it to be capable of making a 3 hr trip and possibly staying on site for 6 months, without hookups but with possible periodic resupply trips and only being occupied occasionally. But that takes a bit more.
Jim
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Do's & don'ts . . . . .
Do some homework learning
-- what is available & for how much
-- what are your local rules concerning having a RV in the yard
-- what commonly needed repairs cost
-- what "show stopper" repairs cost at home vs on the road
Based on the above -- work out a budget and a plan to decide what you can get and proceed with care.
DON'T get in over your head financially.
Don't let your dream turn into nightmare
Don't forget to have a plan "B" to get home if the bus isn't cooperating. :'(
Nothing worse than seeing enthusiasm replaced with misery & frustration
Nothing better than seeing a dream fulfilled with enthusiasm & enjoyment 8) ;D
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Good advice Kyle,
And remember, Education is Important, but having a Bus is Importanter....
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-As stated before, put all circuit breakers inside the living area where you don't have to go outside to reset something (always cold and raining when that happens).
-Keep your fresh water system above the floor. I have 130gal water, 2-10gal electric water heaters, and 2 water pumps under my queen bed. Then it doesn't freeze when you're using it.
-All my switching is done manually. In 25 years of use, never an electrical problem.
-On air suspension coaches, keep the automatic leveling valves, but add electrical solenoids to manually adjust-makes leveling a snap when stopped for the night. Good Luck, TomC