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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: BusNit on September 15, 2021, 03:47:35 PM
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So I have a skoolie under construction with a buyer who wants to take it and finish it to fit their family. Roof raise and basement is all welded and done as is grey tank and generator. So I found this really nicely built and I mean quality and pride built '76 MCI 8 with an 8v71 engine. This supposedly has had the engine rebuilt out of the coach 130k miles ago. It does have a 4 speed auto but not sure which one. My concern is the engine and would it even pass AZ emissions since I live in Mesa. Would it be hard to find someone to rebuild it or even swap it out when the time comes?
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Are you sure a '76 bus registered as a motorhome (not an RV) would be subjected to smog inspections? My '77 AMGeneral with 8V-71 is exempt in California. Good Luck, TomC
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If there are valid receipts on the rebuild 130k miles ago, there should be less worry about the engine once getting it checked out before you buy it. If there isn't FULL credible documentation about the rebuild, just add some zeros as you have no idea how worn out it is. Then bid accordingly which will bring the price so low you may as well look elsewhere.
I've heard of buying a donor bus, one with a very solid engine, to transplant but not many will buy a bus with a bad motor, planning to fix it. But there are some who will buy a bus they have to dig out of the dirt that hasn't run in years, so have it your way, just depends on what you want.
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Are you sure a '76 bus registered as a motorhome (not an RV) would be subjected to smog inspections? My '77 AMGeneral with 8V-71 is exempt in California. Good Luck, TomC
They are not exempt in AZ in 3 counties Maricopa ,Pinal and Coconino it will pass the AZ emissions unless it is in real bad shape. AZ emissions test on old diesels is not much. more about the fee so don't worry about.I don't think Idaho in certain counties like where you live TomC are exempt either now
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Don F,
FYI: there is a bill working its way through Sacramento that will ban small gasoline engines including generators. Since Newson is safe now, you will see all kinds of radical things coming out of Sacramento. So far I have not heard anything about two stokes.
Mike
https://justthenews.com/nation/states/california-lawmakers-send-newsom-bill-could-ban-gas-generators
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Well, the coach looks immaculate and the owners are done with their driving years. Paint work was done professionally and the stainless sides are all new. The interior is all oak with Pergo flooring. We would keep everything but paint the cabinets white since they already have the shaker look. Floor is too gold colored for our taste but thats about it. So as nicely built this is (inside of all cabinets are finished to a high degree too) the engine itself is painted red and peeling paint. There are several braided oil lines that have weeping connections and of course a dollar coin size oil spot on the ground with the pan exhibiting wetness but mostly around the lowest point which is the drain plug. One radiator has coolant sitting on the bottom but not enough to make it to the ground. They will not go less than 40k. Personally I do think its fair despite it needing tires. The tires have full tread, no sidewall cracking but are dated 2015. It was aired down so I didnt really see much underneath but what I did see, the front links did not have any protruding rubber and overall the bottom side was just showing flaking undercoating over what appeared to be stainless ribbed steel? It is listed as a 220 horse 8v71. I didn't think they were so detuned but perhaps they are running 50's injectors?
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If there are valid receipts on the rebuild 130k miles ago, there should be less worry about the engine once getting it checked out before you buy it.
That's another issue. I called a few places in Phoenix to see if they would look at it let alone work on this engine. No one called back even after I tried again with promises they would get back to me. Not sure if I am being blown off (offered to pay for mobile inspection at any cost) or if they are genuinely busy and do not want to bother.
I would have to take it for a test drive and make my own determination it seems.
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I'm not there and I havn't seen the bus BUT 40K?? Ask if they will write a warranty with that price. Just askin
I mean it's an OLD bus. I tell Billie if I die and you get 5 grand you did good. They are only valuable if you are driving them. When you quit driving they are a give away.
Good Luck
Melbo
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That's another issue. I called a few places in Phoenix to see if they would look at it let alone work on this engine. No one called back even after I tried again with promises they would get back to me. Not sure if I am being blown off (offered to pay for mobile inspection at any cost) or if they are genuinely busy and do not want to bother.
I would have to take it for a test drive and make my own determination it seems.
How close is the bus to Cave Creek ? I doubt the engine is set at 220 hp, Call Kevin @ 602 810 1845 he is in Goodyear,I will be in Camp Verde Fri and Sat and Scottsdale Mon and Tue if the bus is close I maybe could help a little
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How close is the bus to Cave Creek ? I doubt the engine is set at 220 hp, Call Kevin @ 602 810 1845 he is in Goodyear,I will be in Camp Verde Fri and Sat and Scottsdale Mon and Tue if the bus is close I maybe could help a little
Busnit trust me when I say this!
If Clifford helps you with an inspection take his advice 100% with out a doubt!
Clifford is the Yoda of buses and steer you in the right direction. (even iof it ain't the direction you want to go!)
;D BK ;D
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Thanks guys! It is in SunCity. I live in East Mesa. They accepted an offer I gave them but of course, the seller being that he agreed to my number said "as-is". Probably since I put in stipulations in my email with the final outcome of what this vehicle may need. I was going to go there on Saturday around 11 with my wife. I am very mechanically inclined and once I learn a system, more than likely, I can do any repairs. The first being oil lines and radiator re-cores. (once I remove and transport them to a radiator shop, that is!)
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don't even waste the time with an MC8. Too old anymore. And much older after conversion is done. Lots of good deals on newer models. Just be patient and do more searching. Remember, many campgrounds are restricting bus conversions older than 10 years or so. Look at different conversions here and on other sites of same age to get an idea of what they would be ultimately worth. Keep in mind owners ask more than they eventually sell for. Ones reduced in price show some reality on this, or how long they have been listed. Being as the rv and bus conversion market is pretty hot currently, people are willing to pay much more than they should. They don't consider insurance costs, finance ability, or maintenance and especially fuel costs. Figure on 6 to 7 miles per gallon. At least, interest rates are low yet.
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That's another issue. I called a few places in Phoenix to see if they would look at it let alone work on this engine. No one called back even after I tried again with promises they would get back to me. Not sure if I am being blown off (offered to pay for mobile inspection at any cost) or if they are genuinely busy and do not want to bother.
Shops here in the Minneapolis area that work on heavy vehicles are swamped right now. Nearly a month ago I called around about getting some basic service work done on my bus and everyone was booked out a month or more. I imagine with some of the work loads as high as they are right now that shops wouldn't bother with a two stroke engine not being used to make money.
Mine has a Series 60 and is a fair bit newer than an MC-8 so nobody has flat out said they won't work on my bus other than one shop that doesn't do buses period as they take up too much room in the shop.
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Shops are getting swamped in units needing repair, and no parts available.
New trucks are half built, no parts available for the assembly line, fields full of half built units, maybe 15k of Class 8 alone...!
None of the heavy manufacturers are taking 2022 orders yet, because they have no idea how to price them, or whether they can build them. Steel continues to be a very hot commodity.
The supply chain is seriously unblanaced and is going to take a long time to correct.
Shipping container rental more than trippled to get goods here from overseas, and the price just keeps climbing. Bribes to shipping companies to put their stuff on the ship first...
The "invisible" part of goods movement around the world is getting uncomfortably more visible...
More than ever, choose a bus that is ready to go, and does not require extensive work, if you want to use it anytime soon.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Shops are getting swamped in units needing repair, and no parts available.
New trucks are half built, no parts available for the assembly line, fields full of half built units, maybe 15k of Class 8 alone...!
None of the heavy manufacturers are taking 2022 orders yet, because they have no idea how to price them, or whether they can build them. Steel continues to be a very hot commodity.
The supply chain is seriously unblanaced and is going to take a long time to correct.
Shipping container rental more than trippled to get goods here from overseas, and the price just keeps climbing. Bribes to shipping companies to put their stuff on the ship first...
The "invisible" part of goods movement around the world is getting uncomfortably more visible...
More than ever, choose a bus that is ready to go, and does not require extensive work, if you want to use it anytime soon.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Forget about parts from Detroit Diesel I been waiting 6 months for sleeve kits when they do come the price is going to be a 25% increase ,the after market is cashing in too
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Unless I am mistaken the 102DL3 is still the sweet spot for an unconverted bus. Mid to late 90's gets you the DDEC4 S60 and B500 trans without getting heavily into networked systems, maybe a 90K btu aux heater and r134 refrigerant. Many have alloy wheels. Sub 10K purchases have been available.
Jim
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You will be into the bus another 4k for the cooling system
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I left a message with the RV place to see if I could take it for a test drive on Saturday. I really do not want to invest in converting another bus from scratch. I am 51 and my time clock of life is already ticking. Time to enjoy for a bit and tackle things along the way. I figure about 20k should more than iron out any potential issues this one may have but it is in pristine condition aside from the oddly painted engine. Much money has been spent on the exterior and interior but I think they dropped the ball and reused hoses and oil lines that have been approaching their expiration date at time of rebuild.
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Unless I am mistaken the 102DL3 is still the sweet spot for an unconverted bus.
Give me a break. The sweet spot is buying a cabin on a few acres and enjoying nature without all the BS from owing a bus. PLUS - it may actually increase in value over time.
There is no sweet spots in buying an old used up bus. Let's not kid ourselves, it is a costly hobby, much like racing and boating. They are all big black holes that suck all your free cash. As long as you enjoy the journey, then just do that but don't try to convince yourself that any bus conversion is anything other than that black hole.
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True for most I suppose Don, but for what I have in my bus at this point I could sell the engine alone and turn a profit. Can't say how long that will hold true but it's a heck of a head start.
Jim
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those multi colored hoses are probably Gates green stripe, Goodyear blue, and Generic black. Usually silicone hoses in older coaches have 2 hose clamps per. Check if hoses are really bulging right next to clamps or clamps are cutting into outside layer, indicating time to change. Otherwise, engine looks OK. Probably had a recent steam cleaning.
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Nothing strange about the paint at all.
There's no rule it needs to be painted Alpine Green, whatever paint happens to be nearby, and paint does like to come off an engine that sits.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I went to drive the bus today. There is definitely something going on with the engine. Excessive blue smoke clouding out three lanes of traffic. Multiple air leaks and the radiator really is springing a leak. That said it will also need an alignment. When I returned to the parking lot, you could see oil had been blowing out of the leaky exhaust clamps. Not sure what to think. I’m pretty certain that engine will need a rebuild. There was no power and on flat ground it could not get out of its own way. Disappointed to say the least as I really want this bus however I do not want to drop another 30k into an engine let alone finding someone that can do quality work. They negotiated to 40k. I’m not paying that as it is. Any good words of inspiration?
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That has to be disappointing. So sorry. It is a cool looking bus but I think the mechanics on this site ( I am NOT one) will say run away.
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absolutely NOT, at that price point, for that bus, at this time.
Even if I had a low mileage donor drivetrain waiting on a cradle.
I am not one to talk about buying and selling prices, but $40k is way out of line, i do not want someone taken advantage of to this degree...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Thanks guys. I will say that this bus is built well and proper. Looks like a factory installation. Having said that, in my humble opinion and what I told the lady at the consignment place is that I would think the price has to come down by at least 30k to 10k to sell it. They want it gone. Even the under storage area is built well with clean grey carpet finished with aluminum corner angle. There are no wires exposed. Everything electrical is in sealtite conduit and secure. (New house and engine batteries too) Truly built with pride and I can see the seller thinking he would want top dollar. Conversion looks like it was done in 2000-2002. All paperwork and manuals are there. The whole trouble is finding a shop that can do an engine overhaul. If I were into it for 40k after tires, engine build and a couple of leaky air hoses, I would feel very happy. (Including bus price) Hard to find a nicely done bus which keeps pushing us into RV's. I do not want an RV. I want a bus dammit!! (I also do not want to convert one. Been there done that and have the financial scars) My life's clock is ticking and time to enjoy some road time.
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25k TOPS. Even that may be high. If that number would seem fine for you to pay with those issues, write that number with your phone number on a piece of paper and give them 2 weeks to 30 days to let you know. Let them know that offer is firm.
Btw, does it have power steering? And if so, power assist or full power? I wouldn't even touch a power assist system. Price out replacing a radiator while you are at it.
If that engine has serious internal issues, better walk away.
Are you in a location where someone familiar with Detroits could be paid to check it out?
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Engine rebuild: $20 to 30,000, tires: $5 to 10,000, rad $4 to 5000 to do both, plus who knows what... Offer $10,000, not a penny more. Then think you can find one that doesn't need anything for $40 to $80 or $100,000 if you take your time. They are out there.
4
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There is a Detroit shop in Phoenix but they haven’t returned my calls after speaking to them twice. Bus has power steering but not sure what type. I’ll include a pic of the front spare tire access area if it helps.
I found a place in Wyoming that has rebuilt engines for 20k which includes a $6500 refundable core charge. It is titled as an industrial engine if it means much. I would need to call them for more info. Not coming up with much on my online search for shops but plenty of parts kits available. I’m not looking at a DIY rebuild. I have a crap ton of tools but nothing that might be capable of pulling the engine out and doing a swap. Not many hours accumulated on YouTube University to fine tune this on my own either if I did do all the grunt work. Today I had a 6” slab of 50’ concrete poured for my next bus… it’s curing as I write this!
I wanted to add that there are two radiator shops that I trust to redo the radiators once I remove them. Hoping the originals can be made to handle better cooling and be stronger than they have been before. (Famous words from the six million dollar man show)
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looks decent there, maintained. I would have expected nothing touched for years.
The power assist system I was talking about has a large hydraulic cylinder with hydraulic lines going to it.
The full power has just steering box with two hydraulic lines connected to it. Not sure what MC8's had available.
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I have already told you what I think they are worth to someone else. I love my L10 BUT it is a dog. We drive it on trips but it is not a race car. I had a DD 8v71 and the spicer four speed. This is better and it was done by Gary at B&B coachworks. I don't know if he would entertain doing it for you but call him and talk. Let's face it the drivetrain is the heart of any motor vehicle. The rest is just what you want to move if it is a race car an SUV a work truck or a bus conversion.
HTH
YMMV
Melbo
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If the blue smoke didn't clear in 5 miles the 8v71 won't be around long and those are not cheap to rebuild anylonger
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No, it did not clear in the 8 miles I drove it. That engine did not inspire confidence. I am looking online to see if it would be worth my time to pull it on my own. I really do not want to go that route. I have to make some calls on Monday to see one final time if the local shop in town who is DD would be interested and or what they would charge. Not many nice buses in my price range out there and/or ones that are converted well. There's one in the classifieds in Indiana (Eagle with a s60 conversion) but it would need an interior redo as my wife says. half a dozen eggs on one side half a dozen on the other... Pick your poison and money trap I guess. Maybe I should cancel the sale of my Skoolie build and keep at it.
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A good shop using quality parts you can bank on 20 to $30,000.00 lol by the time you pay for shop supplies.130,000 miles on rebuild, it that is true you can almost rest assured it has been run hot,pull the inspection covers your self and look at each cylinder or call Kevin it probably would cost you less than 300 bucks to see what you have.If the liners and pistons check out the blower seals could be the cause of the smoke
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I did leave Kevin a message the other day. I assume he is busy as well.
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It also might have been run on multi-weight oil. Mine smoked a bit though nothing as bad as you reported that cleared up after getting the proper oil into it and a few hundred miles on it.
From the pictures it looks like you have major source of oil getting to the exhaust system.
I totally agree with everyone that the price is way out of the ball park. I paid a bit more than half as much for a newer lower mileage Prevost that has a turbo.
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When I went through this bus, there was Delo 100 30 stored underneath.
I am sure they’d negotiate a better price seeing the owners are stated as being in poor health. The issue is finding a shop that can rebuild this engine. I left emails and calls to two shops in Phoenix so I hope to hear back. Feeling doubtful anyone works on these engines anymore.
As you all can see, I really want this bus! (But at a much much lower price point.)
I really appreciate everyone’s input. I take each response seriously.
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30 wt. In Phoenix is a little weak, 40 wt is the minimum and 50 wt might be warranted FWIW
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you mentioned Phoenix. I take it the coach is in Arizona. if so, maybe pay Cliff to come and take a look and give an assesment on the engine
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I have always gone with my gut feeling about things. There's something about this lump of iron that feels like it may have been assembled with some unskilled labor. From the ad.... "Bus conversion done by myself and a bus mechanic friend" The part done by the owner looks absolutely first rate. The rest which is the engine, well... It did make it to 35mph after about 20 seconds pedal to the pergo! (noticeable knock sound at idle too)
I have the room to pull the engine but honestly, not the knowledge to go much further. From reading, I need to build a engine dolly/cradle if I were to attempt this.
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I have always gone with my gut feeling about things. There's something about this lump of iron that feels like it may have been assembled with some unskilled labor. From the ad.... "Bus conversion done by myself and a bus mechanic friend" The part done by the owner looks absolutely first rate. The rest which is the engine, well... It did make it to 35mph after about 20 seconds pedal to the pergo! (noticeable knock sound at idle too)
I have the room to pull the engine but honestly, not the knowledge to go much further. From reading, I need to build a engine dolly/cradle if I were to attempt this.
Pallet jacks work better than the cradles made for those engines
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Maybe throwing a set of fuel filters on it. Very common to have them restricted after parked several months. If you buy this eventually, pull tank and get it thoroughly cleaned. Saves many fuel filters down the road.
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be nice to see pictures of interior, plumbing and electrical workmanship.
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Buses are strange people usually fall in love with the 1st bus they look at,if you like the bus and can get it for the right price I say go for it,shoot me a contact number ,I am not in the Phoenix area at this moment but will be soon
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I agree on the emotional side of purchases. I have been looking for the last couple of years even while building my skoolie. I am what you call OCD. Very few if any home builts tickle my fancy. I look at edges, details, nail filling, component selection. This bus is not perfect in terms of "coloration" but I can tweak that and hit the road quickly. The builder could have been my twin! I did not take pictures of the basement, but it is all clean and fully carpeted. The generator is enclosed in a sound proof box with a front carpeted panel removable by wing nuts. Radiator for the genset is relocated with an electric fan.
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I was hoping someone may have known the builder or seen this bus somewhere.
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I know the excitement and anticipation from standing at the edge of buying a bus. It looks great inside. As stated the engine is the big concern and you know the approximate cost to repair it if it needs a rebuild.
It seems you are time and energy on activities that have no consequence unless the owner will reduce his expectations a lot and is open to taking a half off offer at best. Nearly all busnuts know this sort of situation well as virtually all the older conversions had vast amounts of time and money and energy going into the conversion. Many selling owners look at the stack of receipts and may be willing to take a bath and offer the bus out at 30-50% less than what was put in. Often times, that is still to high and many early selling attempts end with the bus still sitting in the yard. At some point, the owner may get tired of wanting to selling and decides he really needs to sell it and it will get sold with another sever discount but at least it is gone. Some hold on and the widow ends up with the bus still sitting and finally it will get sold off for whatever price is offered.
Long story to figure out where this seller is in that process. Fish or cut bait because if this seller really is stuck at 40k, turn the page and keep looking and stop wasting time and hoping it will work out because it won't unless he will deal. Just trying to save you heart and headache on a big goose egg
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Don, your words could not be more true. To begin with, I cannot find anyone willing to work on these engines here. Even calling out of state they are booked out for 7 months. I went back today to get a serial number off the engine in case I would order one and do the swap myself but the number was difficult to get to and my camera didn’t catch all the digits. Company out of Wyoming could not read it to determine if they had an engine for me. (Power Line systems)
Local Detroit shop that I physically went into said they won’t work on anything older than 20 years.
So in the end I told the lady at the RV place handling the consignment my final offer assuming the risk of replacement engine, radiators, hoses and the like.
She told me the guy is set at his minimum of 40k yet she understood where I was coming from. Bus has been sitting on their lot for over a year and I know she wanted it gone.
I declined at that point and wished her luck. It’s too bad because as you said, the wife will be stuck with it and it will either be sold for pennies or to the scrapyard. What you wrote above fit this scenario to a T. You guys are great! Very knowledgeable group.
The search continues.
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Local Detroit shop that I physically went into said they won’t work on anything older than 20 years.
The search continues.
Maybe ask the shop if they know anyone who is retired and knowledgeable on Detroit's that may want to take on a project?
Rather then do a full overhaul just do an in frame.
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It doesn't matter. The seller is not going lower than 40k. Shop is corporate. Guy working is more of a phone picker-upper and had to confer with management to see if they work on the 8v71
I am looking at the 38k Eagle in the classifieds. Anyone know much about that bus? I did speak to the owner about it a little bit.
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BusNit
Wise choice to move on. 40K isn't close to reality no matter how nice it looks inside.When I bought my (our) bus (that was in 2004) I placed a bid on Ebay which at the time would have been a fourth of what had been invested in a started conversion. Someone lost interest motivation or spousal support. We have spent money but not "BANKROLL" money. We have traveled in it every year. When we are done traveling it will have "NO REAL VALUE EXCEPT AS SCRAP". I know it inside out but no one else wants to figure it out I am sure. That MC8 has no value to anyone that is not in the upgrade it your self mode and they need to subtract the "upgrade it yourself" dollars from the price. Good luck in your search. I'm not nearly as smart as many of the people on this board but I am much more "frugal" than some.
HTH
Melbo
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Yes, you could do most of the engine work yourself & save a lot of $$$. However, based on the likely total cost involved, I believe your time would be better spent elsewhere.
Considering your stated needs / wants / desires, I think it is a wise move to pass at $40k.
You indicated you wanted to be all in for less than $60k ish & didn't want to convert one from scratch. I assume you realize no repair on old vehicles ever comes in under budget - and - you wouldn't be interested in spending the time / effort to rebuild the suspension & drivetrain at the realistic expected cost.
Therefore, I would strongly advise extreme caution on ANY bus conversion based on a bus retired from charter service - they are usually retired due to needing more maintenance than they can earn in revenue service. Very few get the maintenance they need after that.
With the age coaches you mentioned, I believe you will be much better off to focus on the high end coaches of the 80's that were professionally built in a new shell (or Newells)
You should be able to find low mileage (less than 250k miles), stronger engine, & even better interior layout for less than $40k.
I know what it is like to buy a bus that needs lots of work - & then buy more for parts . . . .
I also know what it is like to buy a Newell & only have to deal with minor repairs (as the chassis has not been worn out ).
Take your time & enjoy the search. Once you buy one, then reality sets in . . . :o 8)
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Thanks Kyle,
Of course, I may have said I did not want to do any work on a bus, but in reality, Once I get one, Nothing stands a chance being left alone. Airbags, bushings, seals and the like are always first on my list. I have the space and tools to do most of the work but coming off a skoolie project, I realized that it just takes so long to get something done when the temps are in the 100's. I had someone proposition me about my skoolie build and they are buying it for exactly everything I have in it. I was reluctant to sell but my wife made me realize that it would be quicker for us to hit the road with something mostly done that may need "fine tuning". I opened my horizon in the search to include large RV coaches that have a steel frame and not wood on top of a chassis. It is really hard to find anything halfway decent for under 40k. We are flying out on a redeye to see a 1999 Country Coach Intrigue in Houston. It is an ugly shade of teal with peeling clear coat all over. A genuine Sore sight, but one which I can handle if I could find a good painter at under 10k. Overall, it looks ok from the pics but laying eyes on it will reveal if it will be worth the sub 20k price tag. Incidentally, I had a side yard driveway extension which will handle any size coach I park there. 6" slab at 55' long. I was working on the skoolie with it half off the concrete and it was a misery dealing with laying on the dirt.
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It doesn't cost $30-$40K to rebuild a 2 stroke DD.
Usually the heads and injectors are good. Usually the blower is fine. Usually all they need are sleeves and pistons and a gasket set. Sometimes the block will need some machine work, but not usually.
You can do it yourself if you have a fork lift to get the engine cradle out. Some people do them in the bus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9_btasRJLs
Having said that, I'd avoid any bus with a 2 stroke diesel like the plague.
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We self performed our 2 stroke in frame including labor from a well versed 2 stroke bus nut for under 5 grand. It has been running like a top @ 15 thous miles later....
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A "rebuild" can be anything from a $5 spray can of alpine green to a $20,000+ complete at a diesel shop. But if you are pulling the engine out, might as well do a complete rebuild, and the parts are going to be $10,000+. Anything less is just a band aid that will buy you a few more miles.
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Then again a 671 won't make enough horsepower to hurt itself.. ::)>>>Dan
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$5000 for 42 driving years. That's why we love it.