BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: windtrader on September 21, 2021, 09:28:05 PM
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Several recent comments about Super C motorhomes renewed the topic for me. Like bus conversions, I stumbled across them but a bus conversion was a better choice, especially when I initially wanted to DIY the conversion.
After a few years with a bus, particularly an older 2 stroke and the increased challenges in maintaining them, the thought of greater access to parts and service sounds appealing.
With Super C created on top of an industry-standard run of the mill semi-trucks and fewer maintenance hurdles, what do others feel the differences, pros/cons with each?
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I'd suggest the first question is whether or not you really wanted a bus specifically or just a platform to hold your rolling house?
For me, I find the old bus something worth having in itself and the addition of it being my house on wheels only makes it better. But then again, I'd take a vintage vehicle over a new one so my opinion on that is skewed.
If you're looking for the best platform to carry you and your motor home, then a truck chassis beats a bus chassis in all ways except possibly ride comfort, in my opinion. That can be corrected to some extent with an air ride.
If I ever went to a Super C, my dream rig would be a restored vintage truck body planted on top of a modern drivetrain.
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I saw one that was built using the cab from a fire truck. The details are hazy, but it was interesting. My concerns would include the inability to access the living quarters while under way and the extra work involved in adding basement storage. Your space is limited in even the largest sleeper, and then once parked that becomes virtually unused space. In effect a duplication, as you would want at least a fridge in there. Bathroom? And if you want a toad that becomes a bit tricky. Using the tractor for local errands is feasible of course but climbing in and out would get old pretty fast and it isn't very well suited to grocery runs and trips to WalMart. When parked it would be like living on a 2nd story, and the older I get the less I want to do with stairs.
Seems like a more specialized application. I'm very sympathetic to the 2 stroke owners but the 4 stroke buses use the same engine as all the semi's do.
Here's a thought though. You know how articulated buses have that bellows? Maybe you could design something like that between the rear of the sleeper and the trailer. Some sleepers already have wings back there so maybe some sort of a rounded nose/slider setup could be made to give a connection sort of like the airport ramps.
Jim
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Here is our story. May not work for you but worked perfectly for us in our music ministry where we had to be at a particular place at a specified time.
Here is our 4104 converted bus.
https://usbusin.blogspot.com/ (https://usbusin.blogspot.com/)
This is our Freightliner truck conversion.
https://www.ustruckin.blogspot.com/ (https://www.ustruckin.blogspot.com/)
And here are more pictures of the truck conversion.
https://ustruckinpictures.blogspot.com/2016/05/blog-post_2.html (https://ustruckinpictures.blogspot.com/2016/05/blog-post_2.html)
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I saw one that was built using the cab from a fire truck. The details are hazy, but it was interesting. My concerns would include the inability to access the living quarters while under way and the extra work involved in adding basement storage. Your space is limited in even the largest sleeper, and then once parked that becomes virtually unused space....
Jim
While there are many ways to do this, most Super C conversions have direct access from the cab to the house area. There is no wall between at all. Some have a wall but a walkthrough door, but nearly all professional conversions I'm seeing at the shows use a cab with no back wall.
Much more like a cutaway chassis than a straight truck with a full cab, picture a Super C as being built in a similar way to the traditional class C motorhome, only instead of a medium-duty chassis they use a heavy-duty one. Some even use a class 8 chassis.
Sleeper cabs are not used, as you mention they'd just be wasted duplication.
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One issue, same as everything else related to "RV's" ...
They start with a bottom line truck, instead of a well equipped one.
Suspensions are inferior to a motorcoach. Single air bag on the end of a swing arm, spring front end.
People who own buses, want a bus to fool with. People who want to go camping, need to buy a camper, otherwise, they will be fooling with the bus, when they want to go camping.
A Super C is a more robust choice for a camper, if I was in that market, i would investigate being able to spec the truck chassis, and then turn them loose on the build.
They all need more maintenance done, than the typical owner puts into them...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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buswarrior said;
"A Super C is a more robust choice for a camper, if I was in that market, i would investigate being able to spec the truck chassis, and then turn them loose on the build."
If you read our story that is exactly what we did!
"We purchased the Freightliner from Bakersfield Truck Center. It was built to our specs in North Carolina and then shipped to Transport Designs in Montoursville, Pennsylvania for the motor home conversion"
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With 45 years of driving buses and trucks, my preference for a motor home is buses. The ride is so much smoother and quieter than any truck. Also the space at the front is more useable. Also what I don't like about most super Cs is that they are Freightliners, which to me is the bottom of the line. Freightliners are to trucks what Hyundai is to cars: you see lots of them not because they are good, but because they are cheap. I could be swayed by a nice camper on a Peterbilt or a Kenworth truck...
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With a Freightliner you wear head phones to hear the stereo system when driving, the drive train is good with the DD13 engine,a plus is they are easy to get service on but so are the GMC and International they use both of those use Cummins engine
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Spec. out a truck chassis. Till you do that convert it after body outfit installs a shell, you are talking serious bucks. Might as well buy a converted couple year old Prevost. Lot of money just to travel some. And you need a decent toad for trips off the interstate to visit attractions in cities or grocery shopping and laundry, etc.
To most of us, owning an older bus conversion is more of a hobby and traveling
is the justification to spending so much money on it.
I get a kick out of owners of top end models fretting about water spots on the stainless.
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Spec. out a truck chassis. Till you do that convert it after body outfit installs a shell, you are talking serious bucks. Might as well buy a converted couple year old Prevost. Lot of money just to travel some. And you need a decent toad for trips off the interstate to visit attractions in cities or grocery shopping and laundry, etc.
To most of us, owning an older bus conversion is more of a hobby and traveling
is the justification to spending so much money on it.
I get a kick out of owners of top end models fretting about water spots on the stainless.
LOL I like the Snap Tools and boxes the owners show you while in a Prevost service center having minor work done
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If you have the money why not? But that eliminates most of us right from the start. Happily there are other options, and it isn't hard to conclude that the high roller isn't the best choice anyway. Just take the issue of the frame. It impinges on the design in a big way. 7 stair steps instead of 3 could be a deal breaker. In terms of packaging of user space the bus has been refined to the point that it would be very hard if not impossible to improve on it.
Of course if you are commissioning a high roller then you will not be doing your own maintenance, and you will not be using 50 year old tech. Or 30, or 20, or probably 10 either. So that's kinda like buying a brand new car and then complaining that you don't know where the dipstick is. Until the warranty runs out you'll never touch it anyway. And by then your new rig should be ready for delivery, so why worry?
Here's the thing: All men may be created equal but nobody ever said they were born into equal circumstances and anybody who thinks that doesn't make a difference is a fool. So we work with what we have and the measure of our success could be called our happiness quotient. So the bottom line is to do what makes you happy. If it's a big rig, fine. If it's a cab-n-chassis and a custom carriage fine also. If it's a 50 year old bus that's your choice. Plenty of choices. I maintain that the mid 90s MCI is one of the best and some agree with me. Many don't and that's fine too. Either way it's a dam fine choice as a starting point, especially if your budget is not unlimited.
Jim
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I understand that many are working within a budget, but remember that everyone has a different limit. For some, other priorities have higher importance than cost. Like with me - having the ability to use the bus now was more important than saving money, if saving money meant not using the bus for a few years while I did a DIY conversion.
Some will be fine with having stairs to get into a motor home, whether it be 3 or 7. I've seen lots of Super C conversions that didn't have 7 steps, and I've seen lots of class A diesel pushers with way more than 3. Don't think the number of steps is consistent within any type of vehicle.
Some are seeking a vintage vehicle, some want one with minimal problems. Some want modern features, others are fine as long as they've got a place to sleep at night. To each his own.
Bottom line, buses and Super C conversions each have their pros & cons. No two people are going to have the same priorities so it's great that we have so many options.
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I never saw a Super C with less than 6 steps 3 on the outside and 3 to 4 on the inside most buses have 4 to 5 steps to reach the inside
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I am trying to get my head around this step thing. Our eagle is a bit over 4 feet from the ground to the floor. I can't believe a truck with a floor is a lot more than that. Aren't most sticks and staples built on a freightliner frame? Our eagle has 7steps granted they are shorter than normal bus steps but the boss and I will thank the builder the older we get
Wayne
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Number of steps is also a function of length of travel from point to point..A curve will take more than a straight set of stairs for the same rise due to the increased length.>>>Dan
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Well OK. I will have to rethink this. I thought rise is one function up and down and run its the horizontal distance the steps cover
Wayne
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The cabin floor height on an H3-45 is 63 inches, as in 5 feet 3 inches. The 5th wheel hitch height on most road tractors is about 4 feet. So depending on how much cross frame the conversion adds above a truck's frame rails, a Super C will probably have a lower floor height than a modern bus. Or about the same, depending on the model of the bus.
Maintenance wise, a modern bus uses very similar components to modern trucks. Series 60 or similar engines, Allison transmissions compared to a Rockwell or Meritor, same tires, wheels, differential, driveshaft and basic cooling system. A bus has a 90 degree drive box for the fan that a truck doesn't. A bus has air disc brakes, most trucks have air drum brakes. Newer buses have IFS instead of the straight axle a truck has. A bus has a more complicated electrical system, but not by much once the passenger area stuff is stripped out. Buses have much better documentation for working on their electrical system. Truck dealers don't like to share manuals.
I don't think a bus is much harder to work on than a truck. Some things, especially the engine, are harder to get at. However, the engine and transmission come out of a bus much easier than a truck.
Conversions wise, hands down a bus is easier to DIY. With a truck you have to build the shell and storage bays, which is a huge undertaking. A bus will not squash if it rolls over. It would take some engineering to accomplish that with a truck shell. A bus shell is a blank slate ready to be worked on.
A bus rides and drives way better than a Super C. For the same overall length, a bus will have an extra 10 feet of living space. FWIW, the max overall single vehicle length in NA is 45 feet in most jurisdictions. Most day tractors have a bumper to back of cab of 11-12 feet. (VNL300 is 134.8 inches). A bus is 5-6 feet from bumper to the back of the driver's seat and the area beside the driver's seat gets used as the entrance. The actual space lost to the driving function is very small.
Super Cs give up a ton of storage space compared to buses. Buses, however, have very poor ground clearance and breakover angles. Some MCI E4500s have systems to raise the suspension for just this reason.
I've thought about building a Super C, but it is a non starter for me. I get that people are tired of owning old, high maintenance buses. The good news is that more modern shells are becoming available for very reasonable prices. In most cases one can buy a good bus for less money than an equivalent used highway tractor.
YMMV.
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My DL has 3 steps I'm pretty sure. You let the suspension down when you level it and the first step is normal height. Yes there is an incline inside but it's only about 3". So I don't know how a Super C can get that low. I could maybe measure it tomorrow but it's going to be a busy day so no promises.
Jim
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My DL has 3 steps I'm pretty sure. You let the suspension down when you level it and the first step is normal height. Yes there is an incline inside but it's only about 3". So I don't know how a Super C can get that low. I could maybe measure it tomorrow but it's going to be a busy day so no promises.
Jim
Super C's won't go that low
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An 11R24.5 tire stands 44 inches high. The frame rails are about the same height as the top of the tires.
2007 D4500 Floor height is 50 inches.
https://www.commercialtrucktrader.com/listing/2007-MCI-D4500-5016085752
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An 11R24.5 tire stands 44 inches high. The frame rails are about the same height as the top of the tires.
No one is arguing that point but the Super C's with slides are not mounted on the frame but above it with channel the width depends on the slide used
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I get that. The frame rail height is the starting point before the floor cross members are added.
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Just checked. 4 steps and 9 inches of ramp. Floor is at 47" from the ground. So I'd expect the Super C's floor to be at least a little higher. I'm pretty sure the driver's seat is. But maybe that difference isn't too important as long as you can avoid that vertical climb to get in the driver's door without too much in the way of gymnastics.
I drove a big Ryder's truck moving van many years ago, biggest one they rented as a box van and it wasn't too bad to drive. But you'd have to spend a ton of money on it to make it feel like a home instead of a delivery truck. I'm just not sure it would be worth it considering the alternatives. Certainly from the budget perspective it'd be a non-starter. All that puts me in mind of the common nickname for the old Coachman class A and similar S&S's which was, and you've all heard this: Bread Truck. Yes, it was indeed a bread truck, at least that was it's origin although the bread truck had a far more durable body, and it never got so far removed from it that you couldn't tell it either. Gussied up it as it was, with windows and paint, and not so fine furnishings, it was still a bread truck. And I'm very afraid that a Super C for a long time to come is going to be just another delivery van, though I have to say some of them are very nice. Sorry, no intention to offend, it's just the way I see it. Yes, by comparison my bus will always be a bus. I don't mind that though, intercity buses are known to be rugged and durable, and are generally seen as a cut above the more typical RV.
Jim
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Many reasons listed is why I'm converting my 1985 Kenworth 90" Aerodyne cabover to a 40ft motorhome with separate garage for a car. I just got tired of dealing with the bus and it's 8V-71 (love the sound and the performance since turbo'ing it). But trying to find someone that can still work on the dinosaur is almost impossible-especially in the boonies. When I realized that no one wanted an old cabover, I decided (in 2008) to convert my truck. I extended the frame to 283" wheelbase (horrible turning radius-old school front end), took the 13spd manual out and had an Allison HT740 installed (man I wished I had that transmission when I was driving), had a custom 32ft box made by American Truck Body in Fontana, Ca with separate 13ft garage. The interior has 6'8" headroom, and 24" interior basement storage that has my 200gal water tank, 165gal gray tank, two converted Penquin A/C's, 3-31 batteries, plus a bunch of storage accessed from the inside. My 69gal black tank, 12kw gen, are under off the frame. I thoroughly enjoy driving it-so easy. Granted it is noisier (in a good way). I have twin air ride seats, added air ride cab, and it has 8 air bag rear suspension on fresh shock absorbers. With the Caterpillar 3406B 400hp mechanical, everyone knows how to work on them, plus Caterpillar still makes the engine for third world countries. Go for it-you'll like it alot. Good Luck,TomC
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I'm not sure how a 1985 Kenworth with 1+ million miles would be more reliable than a modern bus chassis. By modern, I mean something with a 4 stroke diesel engine and an Allison transmission. All the basic components are the same. Detroit S60s are about as reliable as they come and their weaknesses (bull gear) are well known.
Yes, getting someone to work on a 1977 GMC bus with an 8V71 and an angle drive transmission will be difficult ! They are over 40 years old and that transmission was a bus specific item to begin with. Nobody wants to work on 2 stroke diesels anymore, especially when it is installed in a bus.
I get that some people like to drive a truck more than a bus. And I get that you cannot put a 13 foot garage on a bus. But reliability wise, I am not sure what you gained by doing a truck conversion over a good bus chassis. There are lots of H3-45 and E/J4500 coaches for sale these days, for very reasonable cost. If you spent as much money converting a modern bus chassis as you are going to spend converting your truck, you'd have a fantastic bus.
As far as the garage goes, I'd rather pull an enclosed trailer and use it as a garage than have a garage built into my RV. YMMV.
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Number of steps is also a function of length of travel from point to point..A curve will take more than a straight set of stairs for the same rise due to the increased length.>>>Dan
That is incorrect Dan. If the height is the same it takes no more steps or risers it only elongates them. I cut stairs for homes and buildings for 46 years.
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That 's assuming all the risers being compared are the same height.>>>Dan
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There is an OSHA code for stair risers. I believe the variance can be no more than 1/4" from one to another.
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Any more than that and you have a tripping hazard. If there is a variance it usually has to be at the bottom step. Also there is a permissible range for the rise. Stairs are dangerous and my hat goes off to anyone who has been building stairs for 46 years.
Jim
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1/4" The brain automatically calculates the rise experienced and translates to the legs/feet.
Everyone has experienced catching a foot on stair tread edge at one time or the other. In majority of the time, a measurement check will show risers out of allowance range. Those other times, it is just being clumsy or old:)
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I've seen several super C's in our travels this summer, one bus conversion and Quite a few Prevost conversions. hundreds of travel trailers 50-50 conventional vs 5th wheels, and several hundred class A's, half ou them huge, top of the line, Plus one semi pulling a large travel trailer. 6 to 10 skoolies. The booming rv market has really brought out a variety.
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When deciding to do a bus conversion, you can start right away with a OTR bus, pull the seats, and you have a immediate starting point for the conversion. It seems Super C is nearly always a box shell needs to be custom built first. Is there other ways to jump start building a Super C?
If a custom shell is needed, it seems the cost for building a Super C is more than starting with a bus. From my looking around, Super C conversions have less space and cost quite a bit more than DIY bus conversion.
Super C may be easier to maintain and keep dependable and reliable for frequent use but other than ease of service, bus conversions seem more attractive due to lower costs, easier conversion, and greater usable space. Main downsides are harder to find old parts and old mechanics to work on them. Since many are older too, probably less reliable.
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I have thought that a moving van would be great starting point. They have a box which is already as low as can be on the floor, usually have a granny attic over the cab, and often have side doors. Many are already air ride.
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Nobody should consider a bus conversion, if they have to rely on others for drivetrain repairs. Should be at least able to pull trans or engine. Like Cliff says $30,000+ on a full rebuild. That includes labor of removing and installing engine, all fluids. Rebuilt Blower, replacement fuel and water pumps, oil pump, all bearings, rebuilt heads, gaskets, etc, etc. Remember at $130 + per hour, it adds up quickly.
Sure, you can do it yourself for far less, only replace a few of the main components, your own labor, but does it come with a warranty if something fails?
Most younger persons don't have the skills required unless trained in the military.
The newer electronic engines- you better have the scan tool or access to one and have the diagnostic skills and understand the workings of electronic engine control.
You start paying for servicing these issues will quickly empty your wallet.
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Nobody should consider a bus conversion, if they have to rely on others for drivetrain repairs. Should be at least able to pull trans or engine. ...
So you have just eliminated 99.99% of the population from owning a bus conversion.
This really seems like a stretch thinking that a bus conversion owner should have the ability to pull a trans or engine. What makes it any different than owning any other type of heavy vehicle, whether it be a semi or a motor home.
Repairs are expensive. Period. Sure, it's cheaper if you can do them yourself, but they are still not cheap. If having the ability to pull an engine were a necessity for owning a heavy vehicle there'd be far fewer people driving all sorts of things used as motor homes.
I realize that many enjoy doing the work themselves, but not all of us have the ability or desire to pull an engine (or do other heavy engine work) and are fine with paying to have it done. I'll do what I can handle safely and properly, and the rest will be done by the folks that have the training and equipment to get it done for me. True, not all can afford it but there are plenty that can.
Not being able to pull a trans or engine has not diminished my enjoyment of a bus conversion one bit.
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What Richard said...
Let's not forget our roots.
We all started somewhere.
Besides that is a haunting post for a forum & magazine named Bus Conversion Magazine. IMO
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1% of 300,000,000. Lot less than that. The mechanical ability to do it if necessary and have at least the tools and can obtain equipment
Well then, have a lot of money for unexpected repairs. What will you do Richard if your engine requires a major rebuild? Say the 50dn gear fails and takes out the engine?
You are fortunate to find a low mile factory conversion. Most aren't that fortunate. and use well worn chassis.
Sure it eliminates most, but thats why their aren't so many conversions done anymore.
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The real key is definitely finding that low mileage engine. Low miles on the entire bus is a plus but even if it's just the engine that has been replaced it's a big plus. The series 60 is good for about 300k miles before the bull gear must be checked for end play and if you catch it in time the repair is costly but not devastating. So based on what should be an initial inspection of any purchase of a S60 engine at least within 100k of acquiring it, who here is going to be really likely to put 300K on their RV? A few, but not really that many I would think, and if so not for several years. So it's possible to budget for those new bearings and the labor to install them. Then if the rest is in good shape you have a decent chance of going another 300k and that should just about do it. This is a million mile engine after all. Along the way there will be other maintenance items but no real surprises unless/until the tranny gives out. Or an axle. And both of those are pretty standard repairs.
So right there is a really big reason to start with a 4 stroke bus instead of an older one. You really can't compare a 2 stroke bus to a Super C and expect it to be a valid comparison unless your Super C also has the 2 stroke engine. Apples to Oranges. Besides, where are you going to find a 2 stroke bus these days that doesn't cost just about the same as a newer MCI with the S60? They've both exited the depreciation curve and are worth scrap value plus perception of worth. So the valid comparison is the 4 stroke bus against the Super C, both in the same price bracket, and if you do that I don't see any way that the bus doesn't come out on top.
But, I do like the 5th wheel moving van (Mayflower/United?) idea. That has potential. Like a box already built on a lowboy trailer. I would think it is an idea worth exploring. I think a conversion of one would take longer and cost more, but I expect you could garage your toad in the rear if you really wanted to.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.etsystatic.com%2F11839028%2Fr%2Fil%2F0038cc%2F2262530797%2Fil_794xN.2262530797_tufc.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP._5pi4a8VcVW7nFN32HxiegHaDi%26pid%3DApi&f=1
Jim
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All 4 stroke engines in buses CAt,Cummins,Volvo and Detroit are called million mile engines but it cost the hell out of to reach the million mile mark,the bull gear is not the only thing on a series 60 that needs attention,they eat injectors like one would Rolaids,you are always dealing with fuel in the oil,they are a better engine though than the old 2 strokes by far
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I guess my main observation recently on this forum is that it's truly amazing anyone would choose to enter the hobby and buy a bus conversion after reading some of the recent comments on the various threads.
Between the comments talking down the value of a bus conversion, the extreme cost of owning one, and now the extremely high technical skills some feel required to own a bus conversion it seems like we're doing a better job of scaring off would-be enthusiasts rather than honestly encouraging them.
I'm not trying to paint a false picture here - it's expensive to own and operate a bus conversion, without doubt. It takes a lot of maintenance, regardless of whether the owner does it all him/herself or farms it out. And, all the money put into the bus will likely not be recovered on the other end. I get all this.
But, there are MANY ways possible to accomplish what needs to be done to safely and enjoyably own a bus conversion. There is not just one way to do things.
True, my current bus is very low mileage and avoids many of the typical problems, but it still has problems. My first bus was one which saw at least half a million miles in its life, but it was well cared for and was quite reliable once we got some initial bugs worked out. There are good buses out there, and they don't all require a winning lottery ticket and a complete bus garage to own/operate.
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A 6V92 overhaul kit is $2000. https://www.ebay.com/itm/220423672040?hash=item33524650e8:g:LJgAAOSwszZa2f1f
I know it isn't a top of the line name brand kit, but let's face it - most of you are driving your buses less than 10,000 miles per year. At that rate, this kit would last at least 10 years.
2 stroke GM diesels have been around for 70+ years now. There are no big secrets to rebuilding them. The shop manuals are readily available as are the tools. There is no reason to spend $30K on a rebuilt engine. That is just lunacy.
The other side of this is that I doubt anyone doing a Super C is going to buy a new truck. It too will have 500,000 - 1 million miles on it. Modern 4 stroke diesel engines are miles and miles more reliable than a Jimmy, but there is a good chance the truck engine will still need a rebuild at some point.
So then the conversation comes down to how difficult is it to rebuild a 3406 or S60 compared to a Jimmy. And the answer is that there probably isn't a lot of difference. The difference is that the Jimmy will need a rebuild every 150,000 miles versus a modern 4 stroke that will last at least 500K.
And the other side of the coin is that no modern diesel engine is inexpensive to rebuild. A Cummins ISB is probably the cheapest. You can't even get parts for Ford 6.0 and 6.4s anymore. A Ford 6.7 is worn out in 250,000 miles if you are working it and they are very expensive (for a pickup truck) to rebuild - $15K and up.
I stand by my statement that the best RV conversion platform is a modern coach with a Series 60.
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The real key is definitely finding that low mileage engine. Low miles on the entire bus is a plus but even if it's just the engine that has been replaced it's a big plus. The series 60 is good for about 300k miles before the bull gear must be checked for end play and if you catch it in time the repair is costly but not devastating. So based on what should be an initial inspection of any purchase of a S60 engine at least within 100k of acquiring it, who here is going to be really likely to put 300K on their RV?
I totally agree.
A few, but not really that many I would think, and if so not for several years. So it's possible to budget for those new bearings and the labor to install them. Then if the rest is in good shape you have a decent chance of going another 300k and that should just about do it. This is a million mile engine after all. Along the way there will be other maintenance items but no real surprises unless/until the tranny gives out. Or an axle. And both of those are pretty standard repairs.
Buses use truck differentials. You can buy a new differential carrier (pumpkin) for a couple thousand dollars. And get one with an air operated diff lock at the same time.
So right there is a really big reason to start with a 4 stroke bus instead of an older one. You really can't compare a 2 stroke bus to a Super C and expect it to be a valid comparison unless your Super C also has the 2 stroke engine. Apples to Oranges. Besides, where are you going to find a 2 stroke bus these days that doesn't cost just about the same as a newer MCI with the S60?
BINGO !
They've both exited the depreciation curve and are worth scrap value plus perception of worth. So the valid comparison is the 4 stroke bus against the Super C, both in the same price bracket, and if you do that I don't see any way that the bus doesn't come out on top.
I agree.
But, I do like the 5th wheel moving van (Mayflower/United?) idea. That has potential. Like a box already built on a lowboy trailer. I would think it is an idea worth exploring. I think a conversion of one would take longer and cost more, but I expect you could garage your toad in the rear if you really wanted to.
Good luck parking a long wheel base 5th wheel trailer in a modern RV park. You'd have to slide the axles way forward or the trailer wheels won't make the radius of the turns in most parks. Most 5th wheel RVs are 20-25 feet from the pin to the axles and the longer ones have trouble negotiating corners in older parks.
Most stock moving vans are more like 35 feet from pin to axle. And you can add a tractor with a bumper to pin of at least 20 feet to that. That makes a bus look downright nimble.
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All 4 stroke engines in buses CAt,Cummins,Volvo and Detroit are called million mile engines but it cost the hell out of to reach the million mile mark,the bull gear is not the only thing on a series 60 that needs attention,they eat injectors like one would Rolaids,you are always dealing with fuel in the oil,they are a better engine though than the old 2 strokes by far
This has not been the experience in the trucking industry with pre emission engines.
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1% of 300,000,000. Lot less than that. The mechanical ability to do it if necessary and have at least the tools and can obtain equipment
Well then, have a lot of money for unexpected repairs. What will you do Richard if your engine requires a major rebuild? Say the 50dn gear fails and takes out the engine?
You are fortunate to find a low mile factory conversion. Most aren't that fortunate. and use well worn chassis.
Sure it eliminates most, but thats why their aren't so many conversions done anymore.
All it takes to run any bus is this. Wheather you can work on it or not.
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they won't be scared away much if the 6.5 diesel forum is any indicator. people buying them in even junk condition to find out what the naysayers said was true. They plow ahead anyway.
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Guess it's important to reiterate that some of us sought out an older 2-stroke bus because we wanted an older bus. Style wise, the older fleets had much more going for them than the newer smooth-sided squared off designs in my opinion.
For certain getting an older bus means more maintenance and repairs, but avoid those by getting a newer bus defeats the desire of having/driving an older bus.
Kind of like when I did a frame-off restoration on a '66 MGB. I could have bought a modern 2-seat sports car for lots less than I spent, but then I wouldn't have a '66 MGB.
I'm willing to trade off modern driving conveniences for vintage styling. Does that make me nuttier than someone converting a modern bus? Possibly.
Back to the Super C side of this, there are lots of vintage trucks which would be great candidates for conversion into a motor home, and one real advantage to using a vintage truck as a starting point is the ease of swapping drivetrain and suspension components when compared to working with a vintage bus.
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Guess it's important to reiterate that some of us sought out an older 2-stroke bus because we wanted an older bus. Style wise, the older fleets had much more going for them than the newer smooth-sided squared off designs in my opinion.
Great. You make decisions, you pays your money and you take your chances. Older, shiny sided buses come with older 2 stroke diesel engines with questionable reliability. If that is your trade off, then that is your trade off.
Back to the Super C side of this, there are lots of vintage trucks which would be great candidates for conversion into a motor home, and one real advantage to using a vintage truck as a starting point is the ease of swapping drivetrain and suspension components when compared to working with a vintage bus.
There won't be much difference swapping into a truck versus an older bus. Bus swaps are harder because the 2 strokes are shorter and the radiators aren't standard. Other than that, a swap is a swap.
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Starting with a moving box truck to do a DIY Super C conversion is most likely to be limited to what's available in the used market, 26' is the max for a used box truck. Naturally, there are always exceptions but odds are 26' will be the max.
Comparing a 26' box truck to a run of the mill 40' bus, there is a major difference in usable interior space. Plus for a bus. Comparing apples to apples, then the bus would need to be a 4 stroke (i.e Series 60 or similar). Service on the engine and transmission are the same. Suspension is different and most other components are not shared.
With the vastly greater number of used 26' box trucks on the road, odds are one can drive one into nearly all general truck repair shop and get parts and service. Buses, as we know, take a fair bit of hunting to find a reputable shop near home. Plus goes to Super C for ease and cost of maintenance.
Acquisition costs. Did no research on the box truck prices vs bus prices but guessing box truck can be had for less than a similar bus with Series 60/Allision drives. Plus goes to Super C
Mileage. From comments it seems a box truck/Super C will get a few miles better mileage than a bus. Plus goes to SuperC.
More pluses to Super C but somehow personally, I still like my bus. lol
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I like my MC8 with the L10. It's a four stroke and no electronics. I have no heat issues and it is very basic.
It is not the race car some people here want but it is a pleasure to drive and we like the setup.
To each their own.
Melbo
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The 2000 dollar liner kit are the fresh rebuilds in buses with less than 10,000 miles since a so called rebuild engine people buy and most don't even make it home.Liner kits are a bandage just money wasted to get by,if you are going to rebuild one do it right the 1st time because later you end up doing it anyways.those kits some are just junk,to each his own as they say
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Richard. your MGB resto wasn't a "frame off" because the MGB is unibody. Do you participate on the MGE or BritishV8 forums?
Probably right about the Mayflower conversion. Getting that through a campsite would be a challenge. Might need a scout car.
Jim
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I think I went ga ga and purchased our 1980 shorty Prevost, because as I age, I long for an earlier time. When my nieces and nephews come to visit us at the lake, they stare at their phones......aaaall day. Can barely get them in the boat. Watch an old FMCA meet video. Such a different time. When I start up the 6V92, that some of you are sure is about to blow up on a back road or bad neighborhood, I still like it. It still has rivets holding the sides on. It is stainless steel when they could still afford to build them that way. We only take short trips so I won't be getting towed from N Dakota. Just not afraid of it. Love to fix the things I can. Pay for what I can't. It just feels good to look at it, and helps me with my "oldness". I'm 64 now. I'll be 70 in a few years. Anyone got a nice looking Flxible I can just park in the driveway when I hit 70? Doesn't even need to run....
Tha's why I have a bus.
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Someguy I'd really like to meet you and talk face to face sometime.
Your knowledge of EVERYTHING surpasses GOOGLE and it would be nice to sit down and enjoy a coke, beer or coffee with such a genius.
You ain't getting squat with a $2000 overhaul kit.
An I wanna see this truck rear end swap when yer done!
I'm really interested in seeing this bus your building in person too!
;D BK ;D
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Richard. your MGB resto wasn't a "frame off" because the MGB is unibody. Do you participate on the MGE or BritishV8 forums?
Probably right about the Mayflower conversion. Getting that through a campsite would be a challenge. Might need a scout car.
Jim
I think you know what I mean here. Hopefully you are joking, cause if we're at the point of policing grammar and the use of generic terms like "frame off" something is out of whack. To clarify, my brother and I did a restoration removing everything and everything that could be removed, restoring and/or replacing as needed before putting it back together. Took us a couple of years and we had a great time.
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A 6V92 overhaul kit is $2000. https://www.ebay.com/itm/220423672040?hash=item33524650e8:g:LJgAAOSwszZa2f1f
And the other side of the coin is that no modern diesel engine is inexpensive to rebuild. A Cummins ISB is probably the cheapest. You can't even get parts for Ford 6.0 and 6.4s anymore. A Ford 6.7 is worn out in 250,000 miles if you are working it and they are very expensive (for a pickup truck) to rebuild - $15K and up.
I stand by my statement that the best RV conversion platform is a modern coach with a Series 60.
Cough. No offense,just a small fact check. My company runs countless 6.7 powerstrokes. The entire range, 2011 to 2021. I drive a 2012, but that’s besides the point. The 11/12 engines had occasional valve problems, we had a 11 break a chunk of valve of 2 months ago, fresh engine being installed for 9 grand. This is a 350k truck. To get 15 k would have to be brand new everything. Turbo, long block, fuel system etc. pray tell what happens at 250k because we have a lot of trucks just crossing that mark or already crossed in the past few years
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Very nice Richard. But don't look back, we of the "Modified" class are gaining on you. Of course I have no doubt you would consider it a travesty to engine swap a '66 and in some ways I agree, yet some do.
And with that perspective in mind, I have no doubt that engine swapping an early bus is possible. But as we like to point out, just because it's possible doesn't make it a good idea. A lot of things have to line up both literally and figuratively, and I suspect the cost would just be out of bounds in almost all cases. So the choice becomes looks or performance. And there's nothing new about that.
Jim
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Cough. No offense,just a small fact check. My company runs countless 6.7 powerstrokes. The entire range, 2011 to 2021. I drive a 2012, but that’s besides the point. The 11/12 engines had occasional valve problems, we had a 11 break a chunk of valve of 2 months ago, fresh engine being installed for 9 grand. This is a 350k truck. To get 15 k would have to be brand new everything. Turbo, long block, fuel system etc. pray tell what happens at 250k because we have a lot of trucks just crossing that mark or already crossed in the past few years
Where did you get your engine for $9K ? Does that include labor ?
My buddy runs a fleet of F350s. He trades them at 150K. Turbo assemblies are expensive. The fuel system is prone to grenade. Pump, lines and injectors are $4500. The fuel cooler is prone to fail. The air to water intercooler fails.
Ford builds great transmissions, bodies and frames. Their engines are horrifically complicated. Just open the hood on a 2011+ PSD.