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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on July 10, 2023, 03:42:47 AM
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The History of the Greyhound Silversides - Part 5 of 5
Who can tell us what model bus is in this short ad for Greyhound?
This is a video by Robert Redden.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFoHORBOBpU
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Looks to be an MC9.
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A 9 or 12 depends on the year of the video looks new, the doors are not duct taped on
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MC9. No question. They have the triple stack vertical rear light housings and not the very square quad housings used on the MC10/12's. Remember the MC10's were custom ordered specially by Greydog long after the MC9's ceased production. This due to the lack of reliable and maintainable replacement coaches from any manufacturer, even the then current MCI models, 96/102a3... etc., weren't as good as the tried and proven MC9. A design for the ages just like the 3751, 4104, 4501, all built to run and run and run and make them money. Lots of these were run for way more than a million miles, more than once before Greydog considered parting with them.
I owned a 4501 for years in commercial service and it was the best driving and most reliable Coach, excepting the Crowns I ran which were the same way, I ever owned or operated. The MC9 was a great design perfectly executed that made it look easy for any operator to own and run at a profit any commercial venture. Simple, reliable, repairable, great to drive, and passenger comfort, what's not to like. I personally don't think there's been anything since that measures up to it for a perfect coach for commercial use. Of course this makes it very desirable for personal use since it won't usually break the bank on upkeep or operating expenses.
The only real downside is the unfortunate state of the 2-stroke Detroit Diesel situation today. I'm the biggest fan of DD's but even I have to admit that the parts, and service availability of 2-storkes is getting to a very bad situation. All MC9's were 2-strokes, 8V-71 or 6V-92T's. I do know there were a limited number of MC12's built with DD Series 50's since that's the only engine that will fit other than the 2-strokes, but these are extremely rare and real unicorns if you can find one.
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I read somewhere that the D series was the most manufactured and best seller in MCI history it passed the MCI 9 five or 6 years ago in sales. I have one of two MCI 9's in the shop now built in 1978
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I read somewhere that the D series was the most manufactured and best seller in MCI history it passed the MCI 9 five or 6 years ago in sales. I have one of two MCI 9's in the shop now built in 1978
I always wanted a 102-D. I think they all came with a Series 60 right? I talked to the Service Manager in Los Alamitos one time when I had my MC-9 in for service, and even after the later models came out, he said if he were to convert a coach, it would be a 102-D, so that pretty much was going to be my next coach. That is until the Eagle came along with the Series 60, 740 Allision Transmission, Jake Brakes, and Cruise Control. They were on my list of requirements for my next bus.
I also agree on the MC-9. I loved mine and in a way wish i still had it, but that seemed like the workhorse of buses.
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The early D's had the 8v92 for a short time,I have friend with one with the 2 huge radiators on the rear,the 1st 60 series in the D was the 11.1 L,350 Hp wasn't quite enough for the 45 ft DL
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CUMMINS and CAT. were optional as well.
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I will stand corrected about the D's. I agree completely and merely forgot about them actually when I made my list. I've driven mostly DL's for many years and agree they are about the perfect combination of all the best MCI engineering, reliability, maintainability etc. and I completely agree that the Series 60 engines makes it a killer combination. They never get hot going up hills (unless of course there's a REAL cooling problem), they have so much power they drive and handle like a BIG car. I love 'em.
Actually I'm on the hunt for a nice D (40ft) and not a DL (45ft). I've driven the 45ft coaches so much and taken them most everywhere, but I feel that for a conversion that I might want to take into some sporty situations I'd much prefer the 40ft length and not have to worry about where I can drag the damn thing into, or if I'll be able to get it out again.... I'm just tired of always being on edge and paranoid about where, and even if, I can take the 45ft 102" wide Beasties.
A well taken care of pre-2000 "D" with a 12.7L Series 60 is what I'm going to find and build my conversion on. Best of all worlds. A nice fully equipped Coach yet still small enough to go most anywhere. Almost like my Crowns, which truly can go most anywhere, except for being an MCI Coach and all the goodies therein. What's not to love.
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That was my approach except that in the end I just couldn't find a D at a price I could afford, so went with the DL. Simply had to face the fact that if I spent all my money on the bus I wouldn't be able to afford the conversion.
I think it was the right choice. What sealed the deal with me was when I ran across a chart listing turning clearances needed for the various bus models and the D and DL were within mere inches of each other. At that point it quit making that much difference. And I've got to say the extra room inside and in the bays sure is nice.
Jim
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I have had several buses in my day. First was a 40 foot 102" '68 GMC Fishbowl with no power steering. My current '02 MCI D4500 is a lot easier to get in and out of places, as the power steering makes up for that. My '74 MC-8 has power steering, and I can't say that it is any harder to maneuver than the D4500, at least that I can tell. I've found that the longer you drive one the smaller it gets (as long as you don't forget that it is actually 45 feet!).
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I've found that the longer you drive one the smaller it gets (as long as you don't forget that it is actually 45 feet!).
Isn't that really the most impactful aspect to driving a bus with skill and confidence. It is the most difficult of all things related to the bus - getting enough seat time to be fully competent. not saying that driving much less means one is not compentant - LOL
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That's a statement that holds true especially on Alaska road trips. Those trips are usually 10 to 12K miles round trip spread over almost half a year and the time at the wheel and the adverse road conditions will keep a bus driver and a bus on their game. :^
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Isn't that really the most impactful aspect to driving a bus with skill and confidence. It is the most difficult of all things related to the bus - getting enough seat time to be fully competent. not saying that driving much less means one is not compentant - LOL
The GM 4905 must take a lot driving to get experience, my gate is 22 ft wide and has been hit 4 times LOL every time it was someone driving a 4905 GM,one person wanted me to turn his damaged bay door (he hit the gate) :o in on my insurance
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The hockey team bus I looked after and drove for several years was a 1995 40' MCI 102 D, with the pre EGR 12.7L Series 60 and 7 speed manual. Great car. A hot rod!
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Absolutely right on the 4905's. I drove and instructed on them in service. Standard instruction was that if you take a corner in a 35 foot transit (old look or fishbowl) such that your right rear wheel was 6 inches from the curb, the same maneuver in a 40 foot transit would have the right rear wheel hit the curb. Do the same in a 4903 or 4905 and you'd jump the curb, kill the pedestrians, and hit the building.
Lots of fun in downtown Boston. Right turn from Tremont to Stuart, to get into the old Trailways Park Square Terminal. Instruction was drive down Tremont. Pass Stuart, and when the driver's seat is 1/2 way down the next block, then start to think about turning the steering wheel.
Arthur
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So I'm curious. For those of you who drove those older buses, or drove a lot of different buses would be better I guess, how did that compare to driving the DL around the corner?
Jim
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So I'm curious. For those of you who drove those older buses, or drove a lot of different buses would be better I guess, how did that compare to driving the DL around the corner?
Jim
I've driven them all including the 4903(the early ones with the tag axle). They eventually got the weight limits raised and did away with the tag axles and GM had a retro kit to remove the tag axle assembly from that third bay and install a floor and turn it into a third luggage bay. It was foreseen so the tag assembly was engineered to simply be unbolted and removed. After a short while GM updated the 4903's with some welcome dash changes and interior lighting enhancements and 'Twang the 4905 was born. They did the same things for the 35ft 4107's and turned them into the 4108. I really liked the dash changes and the other slight modifications to the rest of the bus weren't bad at all.
When making a turn with the 4903's that I drove the most you literally went sideways as you turned since the front wheels were designed to be turned farther than any coach I've ever driven. It almost pivoted around the rear axle. So what you did when making a right turn from the curb lane was to aim directly at the car sitting in his left turn lane and at the very last second, after watching his face get all panicky and start to move over on his front seat, crank the wheel hard over to the stop and that bus would start moving completely to the side with almost no forward motion. I had lots of fun scaring the folks while doing this and once you had the knack of it the 4903/5's were very nice and easy to drive around town.
BUT there WAS one thing they absolutely sucked at which was that huge long distance in wheelbase between the front and rear axles. They were always begging to get high centered and we did manage to do that unfortunately more times than we all would like to admit. That was the real Achilles heel. Well, the 4-spd manual with it's highway designed gear spacing and rear end ratios made them very ugly when off the level paved highways and byways. Steep driveways, in or out, standard GM solenoid reverse operation, these were the devils we had to contend with and we all made do with them as that was the state of the art and all we knew. We learned to never stop or park them in any situations where you were required to use reverse, in case the solenoid failed. We always stopped/parked so we could leave going forward, and always level or slightly down hill.
As to the question of how they turned when compared to most any MCI offering from the MC5 upward to the current ones today I'd have to say the 4903/5, 4107/8 were unique in their built in very tight turning radius's that GM engineered into them. They were unique even from the previous 4104, 4106 series since they didn't handle that way at all. I'm not kidding when I say they would move almost sideways when turned to the stops. It was very different from other models and came in handy in tight quarters.
I've got way too many years driving DL's and J coaches along with all the others like Van Hooligans which are common in service due to their being lower cost to acquire, but I feel you get what you pay for, but that's just me. I feel they all turn about the same with no real surprises so once you are familiar with one you can deal with them all in a very predictable manner with no unpleasant surprises.
The one thing I really don't like is the design today of the Volvo, Setra, and other European coaches that all seem to have a very long overhang in front of the front axle that seems to ride much lower to the ground as if to find and hit and drag on every little thing it can find. Driveways, dips in the road, most things that are no problem for any MCI or Prevost seem to require the driver to use the built-in coach raising feature to clear the obstacle. That big chin they have is sticking way out just looking for something to hit and hang up on. This isn't my idea of progress at all. It complicates and makes for many chances for driver error to cause damage to, or strand, the bus due to insufficient coach ground clearances. This is a pet peeve of mine lately and why I really only prefer to drive the MCI's when possible.
For a private owner and his conversion coach I'd caution him to look carefully at where he intends to take and use his coach and whether one of the cheaper to acquire Euro style brands would actually be a good one to use. They may be easier and cheaper to find and buy, they also will have imported and harder to find parts of all kinds, and much more complex systems that will break with great regularity. Go ahead ask me how I know this. One reason I'm not a fan at all of the Van Hooligans. The Euro coaches all seem to suffer from weird (to us here in North America) handling characteristics and clearances.
A good MCI or Prevost is probably worth the extra initial cost when factored against the overall ongoing costs of keeping it repaired and on the road. I'm not sure I can say this so much about the latest and much more complex offerings from MCI and Prevost, as well as all the other brands, due to the excessive meddling by Gov't regulations and laws and such. That's why I'm interested in pre-2000 vintage MCI's in the hope of finding a good vehicle that's solid, simple, repairable, and reliable.
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Great comments. My 4905 does turn sharper than our former 4104 and ACF Brill. Btw, the Brill had a long wheelbase too. AND manual steering.
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Passengers side bay doors and skins are in demand around here lol so are gate posts
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OK Clifford, couldn't refuse the bait. lol
story behind each event. two involve "posts", they are very sneaky and jump out from nowhere. one nailed me this season too.
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A rock where they were using dynamite for hiway construction in Idaho got me, thought I had it made till I heard it hit cost me a 315/80/22.5 Michlin tire too