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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: plyonsMC9 on July 24, 2024, 01:50:07 PM
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Hello bus folks!
A friend mentioned to me that they use Red Line Waterwetter in their race to lower temps. Something about reducing water surface tension, etc., I had mentioned cooling is still an issue. And I checked and saw Red Line has the same for heavy duty diesel engines.
Has anyone tried this product? I don't want to throw stuff in the engine which ends up harming it. We do a lot to make the system run per spec. But - if there is a benefit w/o causing problems, I'd certainly be interested.
Any thoughts? Thank you!,
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-80213-Diesel-Wetter/dp/B000T9MRAI?th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-80213-Diesel-Wetter/dp/B000T9MRAI?th=1)
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When a diesel engine is overheating nothing you throw at will solve the problem till you find the source of the problem, what are calling warm on the series 60-11.1,190F to 210F is normal
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Thanks Cliff, yes Exactly! Running out of things to throw at it! At least I now have a solid temp gauge and sending unit, to where they exactly match the mechanical gauge & heat gun. But after that temp gauge fix (yay!! & thank you J&R Diesel) and replacing shutterstat ( tests good) & related seals, re-coring radiator, swapping out thermostats, water pump, monitoring trans temp, Bendix air valve replaced. It still hit 230 going up from Fontana CA to Wrightwood, at night. Steep grades, pulling the jeep, but that seems excessive.
Looking for something to stave off some heat (Waterwetter or dry ice :o ) while traveling. I'm going to try the engine bay exhaust fans that the bus converter ( Vantare ) had installed back there - for whatever that's worth.
Whatever is left is ??? the radiator fan clutch? Going bonkers. Looked at it late last night, didn't seem the fan was running at full speed. When the fan is at full / high speed the engine cools. J&R also constructed a shutterstat bypass to keep the louvres open, and used in conjunction w/ the radiator fan test mode for maximum cooling. That will be tested next as we go through California - Desert Center in a couple of days at 114 deg. Pulling the Wrangler.
Thanks all, Kind Regards Phil
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What is the turbo boost under a load ? if it is not getting enough boost a series 60 will warm up, and backpressure on the exhaust from the stupid muffler MCI used will heat one it takes so little buildup in the muffler they used, the fan should be on high at 210F buy you a hand held non contact tachometer from Amazon with the strips and check the speed when it is cool and when it is 210F that will tell you if the fan is on high or low a fairly decent tachometer in from Amazon is under 30 bucks. On mine when it 1st started it would start on high fan and cycle to low in a few seconds with the Lining fan clutch but you may have a different fan clutch
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Good information - thank you Cliff. I will look into these or ask for an assist to check these. The muffler on our MC9 had only tiny slots to let the exhuast through - speaking of building up backpressure. Sounds like the DL3 may be of a similar construction. Love the idea of the tachometer. Going to work on that first.
Best Regards, Phil
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What is the turbo boost under a load ? if it is not getting enough boost a series 60 will warm up, and backpressure on the exhaust from the stupid muffler MCI used will heat one it takes so little buildup in the muffler they used, the fan should be on high at 210F buy you a hand held non contact tachometer from Amazon with the strips and check the speed when it is cool and when it is 210F that will tell you if the fan is on high or low a fairly decent tachometer in from Amazon is under 30 bucks. On mine when it 1st started it would start on high fan and cycle to low in a few seconds with the Lining fan clutch but you may have a different fan clutch
I would ditch that muffler to let it breathe and elliminate alot of heat in the engine compartment, add a resonator if you have to. Not trying to break any records while climbing the grades in the extremme heat out here also helps, watch your speed/rpm's and gear selection. ;)
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Years ago my bus overheated at the slightest provocation, so I replaced the entire cooling system (new high-efficiency core, new hydraulic fan motor and PS/hyd pump, new 9-blade fan, new solenoid directional control valve, new thermostats etc, installed a trans cooler to reduce the heatload into the coolant, moved the hyd cooler out of the rad's airflow, etc etc), but it made little difference. What did help the most was having my engine completely rebuilt last year, when Dustin and I hot-tanked it to remove decades of scale and crud from the inside of the block. Without that insulating layer between the coolant and block it now runs noticeably cooler than in the fifteen years I've owned it. Removing the muffler, even though it was a low-restriction Donaldson with only 8dB of attenuation, also allows the engine to breath better than ever. Obviously hot-tanking a block isn't a practical way to make an engine run cooler, but it made me realize that there's a limit to what can result after attending to the entire cooling system, such as I previously did.
I think that adding water wetters will give very minimal gains, if any at all. In theory they may work slightly, but in practice I think any benefit is completely masked by the myriad other factors that contribute to engines inevitably running hotter when they get older. I would also be wary of adding something to the coolant: what if it causes the silicates to drop out of suspension, or worse? You could then end up worse off than before.
I have a hand-held optical tachometer bought from our friends at Harbor Fright, and it works great to know exactly how fast the fan is turning. Well worth it, even though I've actually used it very little. It's like my new articulating borescope: I've used it only twice, but it's the only way to do some rarely-needed jobs.
John
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That will be tested next as we go through California - Desert Center in a couple of days at 114 deg. Pulling the Wrangler.
Thanks all, Kind Regards Phil
Maybe you should go at 1AM?
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Hi John, wow! Great information. I've been slowly going through some of those steps, so I appreciate your recap for sure. And the engine would have decades of buildup, but the coach was never on a commercial route, coming straight from the factory to Vantare. So IIRC it has around 150K miles. Something for me to consider re rebuild- -
And I'm convinced - no watterwetter! Spent too much time & $$ to get the setup to spec. Thank you!
Will try the tach out in a couple of days. And travel with it as well. I'm thinking if the fan clutch isn't fully working then it may not help to downshift - but that's some wild guesswork on my part. More info soon..
Yes Fred - 1a not a bad idea. I just need to convince the spouse about that one. :o
Take care all! Phil
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There won't be scale build up on a series 60 @ 150,000 miles they are just getting into their stride, a total different design than a 2 cycle DD those are wet sleeves from the top to the bottom not just the 2 inches on top, you will find the problem, if it wasn't for the 3 year backlog I would help you
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I guess there is the remote possibility that you have what we call the "Billy Van Hagen" effect, where somewhere in your cooling system, the system is plugged up either totally or partially in the engine itself or in the cooling system. There could be leftover rags, or debris stuck someplace in the system that is impeding the flow of coolant. I personally know no way to test for this, short of removing the engine and dismantling everything. But someone out there may know of a way to force coolant or water thru your radiator system to see if the full flow is completely flowing thru your system because any blockage could be causing an overheating system. Right?
I think you already replaced the water pump if I remember, but if not, is there a possibility that the impella is slipping on the woodruff key or whatever locks it into place and is slipping so it is not pushing the total volume of water through there to cool the entire system?
Also, someone once told me that if your transmission is overheating, it could cause your engine to overheat too. So maybe also consider that?
Just tossing out ideas, as I know you have tried a lot of tests already.
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For the life of me I cannot find the automatic shutdown high temperature for a 111 my series 60-12.7 DDEC IV in the truck it would shut down at 228F and reduce power @224F and he is reading 230F.
If you need to add coolant on a regular basis with no visible leaks, then a compression leak into the cooling system comes into play,those engine had a service bulletin issued for new head bolts to stop that
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Here you go Phil. Maybe this is what you need in your bus. ;D
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Here you go Phil. Maybe this is what you need in your bus. ;D
Uhhhh! Care to share the price with him Gary? Better be sitting down Phil when he tells ya!🤣😆
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In my dads 4104, he used Nalcool, as long as he had it. And that was about 150,000 miles worth.
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Thanks Gary -
Water pump was replaced. As you mention - could have been an impeller issue. Kevin took care of that. And he had an innovative approach to that troubleshooting; baby (TV) monitor in the engine compartment, which gave a view of multiple gauges, including the trans temps. That temperature was within spec. It was interesting watching all the gauges and temps from the driver seat.
Best regards, Phil
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For the life of me I cannot find the automatic shutdown high temperature for a 111 my series 60-12.7 DDEC IV in the truck it would shut down at 228F and reduce power @224F and he is reading 230F.
If you need to add coolant on a regular basis with no visible leaks, then a compression leak into the cooling system comes into play,those engine had a service bulletin issued for new head bolts to stop that
Thanks Cliff - after J&R found a leak in the temp sensor I have no more issues w/ coolant loss. Very nice to have that fixed.
Using the bypass setup they installed, we drove through Desert Center & Needles CA yesterday when it was about 115 degrees. I had much more success as long as I kept the speed down to around 55. This is an improvement. The bypass consists of putting the radiator fan in TEST mode. TEST mode forces the fan to run continuously vs. on/off depending on temp. And a couple of valves which force the shutters (louvres) open. Temps with bypass in place throughout the day and low speeds were 190-220. I had to pull over once when we were over 220.
I'm going to test w/ the tach to compare radiator fan speed vs. MCI spec. Verify whether the fan is moving at the proper RPM.
I remember years ago when this bus was the current model, watching them run passenger services, blowing by me on the freeway at high rates of speed. What happened between the time when it was running passengers, down the freeways at 75 MPH and now when I'm messing around trying to keep it at 55? I don't ever remember seeing DL3's slowly going down the freeway with flashers on... heat or no. I just wonder.
Thanks all!, Phil
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Some one could have replaced the OEM fan with the wrong pitch and blades count to, those plastic fans were not very durable on the early D models
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Thank you Cliff, that’s definitely something I had not considered. I shall add it to my list of items to figure out.
We’re in Colorado now and I had to pull over 3 times to keep from shutting down coming up from Grand Junction to Estes Park through Golden. Long 6-7 percent grades, up to 10,500 & 11,600 feet elevation. Definitely was not speeding. 🤨.
I believe heat is now just an issue at the more extreme conditions but not certain yet. I’ll have plenty of chances to test in these next few weeks. Want to get this resolved before journeying up to Alaska.
With best regards, Phil
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Re: Some one could have replaced the OEM fan with the wrong pitch and blades count to, those plastic fans were not very durable on the early D models
I heard from a tour operator up in Colorado that one of their "new" MCI's (F series) fan had a blade detach and shoot through the radiator, totaled the radiator for sure.
Regards, Phil
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Update: Drove several weeks cross country. From Colorado out to Kentucky, then back through the southern states to AZ eventually. Never had a serious overheat issue again. Though, heat does seem to accumulate. And the radiator fan seems to labor. I spoke w/ MCI tech for quite a while a couple days ago. He'd worked on about 80 - 90 of them. In his experience the air should about blow you off the ground when it is operating properly. Well that isn't what I experience. Air seems to leave up & towards the center of where the intercooler and radiator are position, if you're on a good sized ladder in back of the bus while it is running.
I've never been able to override the radiator clutch and lock it on. The tech suggested that a sluggish / slipping clutch could be an issue. He also suggested checking vales - if they are too tight could generate heat as well.
I did request the correct RPM speed of the radiator fan. He said that was the first time he'd been asked that, and after a lot of searching he was not able to find that number. Either way, he spent a long time w/ me on the phone. Most of his suggestions, we had already gone through. But it was a good confirmation. Glad to have been working w/ the mechanics that went through a lot of that for me. Along with the good suggestions from the forum. And I'm likely going to have the radiator fan clutch replaced. Possibly at the MCI shop in So. Cal. And have them eyeball the bus per spec if I can get that done re: the engine cooling system.
Steve at International Bus Parts has vented engine doors for the DL3, but I'd really like to nail the overheating issue. Ditto for adding a "mister" system.
So that's the update after our cross country trip & back. Thank you for any suggestions!,
Kind Regards, Phil
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Last year while the engine was out of the bus I took the MultiWing 9-blade fan off the motor and changed its blade pitch from the original 37.5 degrees to 45 degrees (the maximum recommended by MultiWing) to pull in more air. The first test drive showed that the opposite was happening, with temperatures no lower than before and with a lot more fan noise: the hydraulic fan motor was working much harder, and its hydraulic fluid was 10 or 15 degrees hotter than normal. (I can also read hydraulic/PS fluid temps on my transmission temp gauge, and I can also read oil temps on my coolant temp gauge.) So, out with the fan again, a PIA to do when the engine's in place, and I set the blades to 40 degrees. No more jet engine noise, much cooler hydraulic fluid, and most importantly several degrees lower coolant temps. Yeah! So, the moral of the story is to not pitch the fan blades too much or they'll just create inefficient airflow; maybe that's what compressor stall is in aircraft jet engines? Everything's a learning curve!
John
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Thank you John. You motivated me to check the fan pitch. Which following the following formula, is just shy of 22 degrees. 7 blades. For width I used the widest part of the blade, as the blade is not as wide near the hub as it is near the outer edge of each blade, moving from about 4 1/4 " wide to 5 1/4" wide.
Height / Width * (180)/ 3.14159
Height (2") / Width (5 1/4") * 180 / 3.14159
The fan does look pretty wimpy next to the intercooler fan, and the center of each blade has been chipped as if it had hit a shroud at some point. But maybe this is a standard look for the MCI DL3-45 fans. Not sure.
That's a lot less than your pitch John, but that could by design.
If anyone reading this thread has a DL3-45 or similar could send a picture ? I may also be able to call MCI back on this one.
With best regards, Phil
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Rough edges on fan blades do cause a lot of turbulence of the air flow ,the newer fans have a ring tip designed to prevent the end chipping and keep the pitch on nylon fans ,the D's when the fan is working right move a lot of air and you can hear and feel it. On the 2 fan setup on the MCI D you may have a problem with the CAC fan over powering the engine fan with the rough edges you spoke about
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While I totally agree with Clifford that the root cause needs to be found (my mc5 is scheduled to get a major upgrade to the cooling system), I had to hit the road. Up gradients, pulling my ram 2500 poor thing starts to get very hot. It started to overheat from selligman in AZ to Williams. Steeper gradients certainly have a much worse effect than ambient temp.i ended up sealing the fan bay doors with rubber seals (now they barely shut! ) and I used water wetter- the HD kind. I put in two bottles.
It’s hard to tell, as there are so many variables, but I’d say it probably doesn’t get as hot. It almost touched 200 going from Williams to flagstaff.
It probably honours their claims and runs up to 10-20 deg f cooler.
In any case the interim measures of extra chamber sealing and water wetter did seem to help!
If drive and once it started to touch 200 I’d pull over. Once it spiked higher and the lube for the fan gear box puked all over the ground! But once cool again it only leaks slowly again. The 8v71 doesn’t endure heat well but it’s probably the better out of the two strokes with its solid closed deck 2 stroke design. The most amazing thing to me is that now I’m in the Midwest flat lands, the needles just stays at 170-185. I could imagine someone living in the flat lands, never travelling to the mountains, totally oblivious to the potential overheating issues, maybe even putting in a more powerful engine! My water pump was rebuilt in 2016, the little mc5 rads look fine and the engine is making 280 bhp with the little c60 injectors. It’s also a manual trans.
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I'm going to post a summary of all the steps I've taken in a bit. Still chasing the heat issue. She's running cooler, but long grades even when not towing can still be an issue.
Latest step was to remove the full / solid heavy mud flap that ran completely along the rear bumper, from driver to passenger side, and almost touched the ground. Reading through the posts I understand that may block heat flow. It's gone now and as I use the Roadmaster "Tow Defender" I don't really need that huge air / debris block there.
https://www.roadmasterinc.com/tow-defend-bx-demco-mx/ (https://www.roadmasterinc.com/tow-defend-bx-demco-mx/)
The wheels still have their own mudflaps.
Not sure that made a difference on the latest mountain climbs.
Going to have the radiator fan (thanks Cliff) & clutch checked out when I can figure out where to take it, maybe early next year. That work is a bit above my pay grade.
Hope to be posting my cooling system checkup / review list soon - maybe help someone in the future. Especially when I get the final issues resolved!,
Kind Regards, Phil
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Good evening bus folks!,
Reviewing the DL3-45 radiator, intercooler setup. Behind the intercooler (driver side) and coolant radiator (passenger side) there are what looks like some air flow panels, directing air from each side of the bus, through the side louvers, to the respective radiator/intercooler/fan setups.
I've read about the importance of seals and not allowing air to leak through.
I took a flashlight to look behind the radiator setup, through the side louvers, and see any air gaps. What I see is surprising but would like to hear whether this is actually an issue. There are air gaps and a couple of places where rivets are coming loose. Could someone please tell me whether there should be seals in these locations?
What I'm concerned about is that w/o seals (if there should be seals here?) that when the intercooler fan kicks on at some point, as it looks to be a much larger surface-area fan, that it could suck in air from the radiator fan path, resulting in higher coolant temps, and eventually overheating that I'm seeing after long/hot drives or steep mountain climbing.
If I'm grasping at straws, please let me know too!,
Thoughts, suggestions are welcome!, thank you, Phil
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Phil,
I'll take pics of mine and post. I have to work for a few hours tomorrow but I'll do it when i get back.
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Hugely appreciated - thank you Eric!
Kind regards, Phil
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My MCI9 came to me with new radiators and a new water pump but still had an over heating problem. It turned out to be a loose impeller on the new pump and once tightened properly the over heating problem was history. Jack
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Right Side
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Left Side
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Both sides
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My MCI9 came to me with new radiators and a new water pump but still had an over heating problem. It turned out to be a loose impeller on the new pump and once tightened properly the over heating problem was history. Jack
Thank you Jack! I appreciate that suggestion.
I had a new water pump put in just in case, however the heat problem remained.
:(
Kind regards, Phil
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Thanks very much Eric,
That is hugely helpful. It looks like I have problems w/ my airflow. And I see you have the (30 inch? ) 9 blade radiator fan.
This looks like there are a couple of good opportunities here for me. I have a 30 inch diameter 7 blade fan, and the blades look pretty weak next to the intercooler fan. I called MCI and the word there is that I could use the 9 blade fan.
And - I see your panels in back of the radiators go ALL the way to the bottom. Mine have a one inch air gap at the bottom of each panel, meaning that, I believe, the air flow is not isolated between the intercooler and radiator. Also, I have areas at the top of the panels also that would enable air flow between intercooler and radiator fresh air intakes.
The MCI tech recommended these be sealed. Possibly not a specific seal for this purpose available, so something may need to be fabricated.
Finally, I do need to check on the one speed fan clutch to be sure it is not getting old / slipping..
What an adventure.. :o
Kind Regards, Phil
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Phil this outfit www.kit-masters.com will help you more than MCI with the fan and clutch problems ,they will help you ID the fan clutch and how it works and build you a fan
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Glad to help.
Since I am still learning....
I understand these are both radiators, but what does the intercool cool specifically.
Transmission, turbo?
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Glad to help.
Since I am still learning....
I understand these are both radiators, but what does the intercool cool specifically.
Transmission, turbo?
They are not both radiator's, the Charge air cooler (inter cooler ) cools the air entering the engine, diesels like cooler air under a 129F at intake to produce more power from the cooler dense air ,the only purpose it serves is for cooler air, A series 60 will flash a code if the air intake is above 140F,the Carge Air Cooler does require attention they are bad about cracking resulting in low turbo boost that will add heat to your series 60 engine or any modern diesel engine
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Phil this outfit www.kit-masters.com will help you more than MCI with the fan and clutch problems ,they will help you ID the fan clutch and how it works and build you a fan
Thanks very much Cliff, I'll be giving them a call soon.
Best Regards, Phil
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The latest on ' chasing MCI engine heat.
MCI tech support recommended I try
Action Bus and Truck Repair, in Phoenix, AZ
I did, they were very hard working and fixed the seals around my air flow panels behind the radiator and Charge Air Cooler. Also, they replaced the radiator fan clutch. The clutch was 30 years old, so possibly slipping. I can't really test it now as the bus won't run hot enough going up the I-17 in this cooler weather.
I'll continue to update this thread as things change. Also, they recommended against swapping out my 7 blade fan for a 9 blade, even though it would fit. Wanted to make sure the issues aren't resolved by getting every piece exactly right. I can't argue with that.
Take care all, and Merry Christmas!,
Phil
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A couple more updates;
Did a good amount of driving around southern AZ in the past month while pulling the Jeep. In the past (before the radiator fan clutch was replaced and air intake to the radiator seals were added) this would result in temperature "creep". Usually sometime after 45 minutes. Even in cool weather.
The temperature never got above 190. Usually it would hit 185 and then back off. My temp gauge is hard to read as there are large gaps between any numbers. Either way, this is a first for me in the time we've owned this bus; no temperature creep.
Upcoming cross country driving closer to the summer months will provide the final word, and whether I add fluted engine bay doors to further cut down on any heat buildup. I do use the EHP heat blankets around turbo area and exhaust piping.
Take care all, Phil