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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on March 23, 2009, 06:46:36 PM
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Hi Guy's,
I'm starting a unique job at the shop this week. I'm equiping 3 ice cream trucks with 120v power to operate added equipment.
These trucks are now set up with novilty ice cream bars and the like in 8ft dipping cabnits that are only plugged in at night. The 8ft cabnits
hold the product well from 10am to 10pm at night so this is not what im powering. The owner wants me to give him 120 volts to operate
a cotton candy machine, a commercial blender for smoothies, a survalance system, and a cash register. The first truck arrived today and we are
starting tomorrow. In my proposal, I will be installing a xantrex 1800 watt inverter/charger, two 8D batterys, distribution box and 4 outlets,
a battery isolater to feed 12v from the altenator, a new 50a power cord/supply to power the inverter and the 8ft IC dipping cabnit and a
fantastic fan vent in each truck.
I now have everything in stock at the shop for the job except the batterys.
Question, how well will 8D's do for this project? or should I change to sonething else? I have the room to do so if needed.
Thanks
Nick-
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Is the 1800 watts going to be enough to run everything at the same time? The cash register and surveillance system probably don't draw too much, but the blender and cotton candy machine might.
You also might want to consider the performance of a solar electric storage battery to make sure they don't run out of juice, and can run to a deeper discharge level than "regular" 8D.
http://www.dcbattery.com/rollssurrettesolar.html
Rolls, Surrette, and Deka make some good, but expensive batteries.
- John
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Calculate the worst case current draw for each of the things he is powering, and then look at the amp hours you have available from your batteries. Certainly the deep cycles would be appropriate, as might the sealed AGM batteries. They can take a faster charge than the normal flooded batteries. YOur calcualtions will tell you if you need more batteries or not. AS you know, you should not plan on going below 50% charge or it will shorten the batteries life.
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How many amps does the alternator put out,will it be enough to charge both battery's ?
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Since this is a commercial vehicle, I would install a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter with the equivalent of 1000 amp hours worth of battery. Then you'll have enough power during the day, and when you plug in at night, the inverter will have the rest of the night to recharge the batteries. Personally-I'd just use a generator. Good Luck, TomC
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Nick,
You have not given us enough information to help.
We need to know for how long the truck is "parked" at each stop to dispense the products, and how far it will be driven between stops if there will be any sort of engine-driven charging.
Also, remember that "8D" is a physical dimension, nothing more. More important than battery dimension is type of construction, chemistry, electrolyte retention, capacity in amp-hours, and rated number of cycles. I wrote extensively about this here:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4329.msg39499#msg39499 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4329.msg39499#msg39499)
and more here:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3291.msg29687#msg29687 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3291.msg29687#msg29687)
Lastly, if you intend to use an MSW inverter, remember to multiply all the current-draw ratings for the motors (blender, cotton candy machine) by about 1.3 to ensure adequate capacity. If either of those draws close to 15 amps, you'll be over the continuous rating of the 1800-watt inverter.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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Hi Guy's,
My worst case sinero was 12 amps total,equaling 1440 watts. The only load that will run all day is the survalance system.
Freedom HF link
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/257/p/1/pt/8/product.asp
250 amp hour batt bank will be sufficient with the engine alt being 160 amp. The drivers make on average, 40 stops a day
but most will be their novilty products. The more I hear about the 8D's the less I'm liking them...
Now, 4 golf cart batts wired in S/P might do just fine. Whats your thought?
Sean, the trucks stay docked and plugged in from 10pm to 10am each night.
Tom, if it were my truck, it would have a 3k and 1000 amp hr bank also. This was a bid job and the customer is cheap as hell...Lol
Thanks for the info
Nick-
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Note,
I just got off the phone with the customer and I asked him why would he want to have the cotton candy machine on the truck
when he could make the product in the mornings at his busisness and bag it up to hang in the truck? I heard silence for a few seconds... ???
The cotton candy machine draws 4.5 amps and thats not much but, when is the driver going to have time to make it? Plus that
stuff is messy. So, that may or may not happen...
Nick-
PS, anyone want a fudgie wudgie bar?
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Careful Nick, you'll talk him right out of a job! ;D
Glenn
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Nick, I am not one of the electrical guys here but you get more bang for the buck with the 4 D size I think there is only about 40AH difference between the 4D and the 8D size and the 4D'S are lighter and smaller.I am going to redo mine and go to the 4D'S
good luck
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Don't forget the starting surge of the motors and the amount of juice the Inverter uses just being on all day.
Cotton Candy can be made to order and you can carry more sugar on the truck to make it as you need it than guessing and running out on a Cotton Candy Rush ;)
You may want to stick a solenoid between house and truck systems to only charge when engine running and have it close when key is in the on position.
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I am a little surprised that there is no mention of any lighting in the proposed plans for the vehicle. Even with extended daylight hours in the summer time, I would expect that the interior would benefit from some supplimental lighting. I guess they could use some of the closet type lights that have their own batteries, but most of the other solutions I could think of would use the house batteries or run off the inverter? Seems like some LED light fixtures, added to the work Nick is already doing, would be perfect.
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I am a little surprised that there is no mention of any lighting in the proposed plans for the vehicle. Even with extended daylight hours in the summer time, I would expect that the interior would benefit from some supplimental lighting. I guess they could use some of the closet type lights that have their own batteries, but most of the other solutions I could think of would use the house batteries or run off the inverter? Seems like some LED light fixtures, added to the work Nick is already doing, would be perfect.
Hi Wayne,
I didn't mention it but, there are 4 floresent fixtures there allready that run off the engine batts. I will be tieing into them for the fantastic vent.
Thanks
Nick-
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Home brew ice cream truck by home brew owner.
Whatever you do, don't leave it so he has to return sheepish to get upgrades or repairs.
Build to his spec, make a few recommendations that he might want to think about as the "load" on his growing business increases.... leave the guy a face saving escape.
He doesn't want to spend more now, and you want him to come back when he is able.
Personally, I'm with Tom, it needs a generator running full time. A small Honda or Yamaha, with religious oil changes, will be quiet and long lasting. Some chip trucks around here have them slung out back on the bumper.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Looking at the design criteria that Nick has been given to work with, the one thing that jumps off the page is the fact that the truck is going to make 40 stops per day. So, unlike a concession stand at a carnival that sits there all day, the engine and alternator are going to be running frequently.
If the truck was to be parked for extended periods, I wouldn't like the idea of running the roof fan and lighting off of the engine battery. But with frequent running of the engine, it shouldn't be a problem.
Might not be a bad idea to have a discussion with the truck owner about maximum parking time, and the ratio of driving vs. parked time.
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Where's Circusboy90210 when you need him.
He's been trying to work on something like this for awhile now.
:D :o ::)
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Home brew ice cream truck by home brew owner.
Whatever you do, don't leave it so he has to return sheepish to get upgrades or repairs.
Build to his spec, make a few recommendations that he might want to think about as the "load" on his growing business increases.... leave the guy a face saving escape.
He doesn't want to spend more now, and you want him to come back when he is able.
Personally, I'm with Tom, it needs a generator running full time. A small Honda or Yamaha, with religious oil changes, will be quiet and long lasting. Some chip trucks around here have them slung out back on the bumper.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Hi BW,
A Honda RV 6 kw generator was in my first proposal when he wanted to put soft serv IC machines in. Until he priced the soft serv's at $8500 each..
We were going to mount the Honda's between the frame and the body under the trucks and install 15 gal fuel tanks.
Maybe next year..
Nick-
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After searching all day for batteries within the budget I came up with the trojens here.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/SCS22512V.aspx
Let me know what you think of these?
Thanks Guy's
Nick-
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Nick
Talk to me about the cameras and DVR he has chosen. Interior or exterior cameras ? how many ?
How does he plan on reviewing / downloading images?
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Nick
Talk to me about the cameras and DVR he has chosen. Interior or exterior cameras ? how many ?
How does he plan on reviewing / downloading images?
Hi Joe,
I'm not quite sure yet, he has not delivered the system to me as of today. I'm just installing them for him.
I do remember him saying 3 camra's and a digital recorder that he downloads when the truck returns home.
NICK-
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Nick, I have used Trojans on My sailboat for many years. They usually last about seven years with reasonable care. I have just changed My bus to eight t-125 6volt Trojans because the distributor had blems for 65 dollars each. Blems meaning they are 6 months old. A no brain er to Me ,the only downside is no warranty! Regards ,John
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Nick
This Siamese cable is a nice cable to work with, ( The coax and the power cables all in one jacket ). You could use the PVC jacket , the plenum is for a office environment- no difference in performance.
http://cableorganizer.com/coaxial-cables/rg59u-coaxial-siamese-cable.html
Twist on BNC connectors - no special tool needed. Should do well with the added vibration seen in the truck.
http://cableorganizer.com/gem-electronics/twist-on-connectors.html
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After searching all day for batteries within the budget I came up with the trojens here.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/SCS22512V.aspx
Let me know what you think of these?
Thanks Guy's
Nick-
If I am reading the website info correctly, the SCS225 is a conventional wet/flooded type battery. Like many decisions, I am sure price factors heavily into the equation. The SCS225 is probably a better "bang for the buck". I wonder whether the end user will actually maintain the battery, adding distilled water as needed. I think the deep cycle Gel, or AGM are better batteries for the application, but from Nick's comments the guy probably won't spring for the added cost. I was thinking two of the Trojan 6V-AGM or 6V-GEL models.
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Nick
This Siamese cable is a nice cable to work with, ( The coax and the power cables all in one jacket ). You could use the PVC jacket , the plenum is for a office environment- no difference in performance.
http://cableorganizer.com/coaxial-cables/rg59u-coaxial-siamese-cable.html
Twist on BNC connectors - no special tool needed. Should do well with the added vibration seen in the truck.
http://cableorganizer.com/gem-electronics/twist-on-connectors.html
Hi Joe,
We have completed all the power systems in the first truck and now we are tackeling the camra system.
The owner droped off a real hokey system if you ask me and the recorder is a 1280hr vcr that seems prehistoric.
Question, the instructions for the vcr discribes a multiplexer that is needed to accommadate more then 1 camra?
Of course, this multiplexer was not included in the delivery... I put a call into the owner and he has not recieved a
call back as of yet from his supplier and this is holding up my completion of the job.
If anybody knows of this beast, please feel free to inlight me.
Thanks
Nick-
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Nick - a video multiplexer in this application can combine multiple camera inputs for recording on one VCR/CDR - it can also be used for combining multiple inputs for viewing on one monitor - HTH
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see--> http://www.ezwatch-security-cameras.com/shop/Video-Multiplexers-p-1-c-330.html
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Got It..
Thanks Niles and Pete
Nick-
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With those size 31 batteries, you need 2.5 batteries to equal one size 8D Lifeline AGM battery (255 amp hours, compared to 105). Or with two 8D Lifeline AGMs, you'd need 5 of the size 31's to be equal. With my experience with AGM batteries and the fact they need NO maintenance, and the fact they charge twice as fast as a flooded battery, I highly suggest you use the Lifeline 8D batteries to eliminate all the headaches of flooded battery upkeep-especially with an ice cream truck. Good Luck, TomC
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Uh..
Back to the cotton candy machine. It may have a capacitor type variable speed
motor for the spinner and then the heater section may have a hefty draw.
MSW may not work correctly, You would have to test one to see if it will work.
Sorry.. Just rambling here...
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Note,
I just got off the phone with the customer and I asked him why would he want to have the cotton candy machine on the truck
when he could make the product in the mornings at his busisness and bag it up to hang in the truck? I heard silence for a few seconds... ???
The cotton candy machine draws 4.5 amps and thats not much but, when is the driver going to have time to make it? Plus that
stuff is messy. So, that may or may not happen...
Nick-
PS, anyone want a fudgie wudgie bar?
not meaning to burst anybody's bubble on this one.. I've operated many different types , brands cotton candy machinery. they are more like 27to 39 amps a piece. alway's had trouble running them in canada because the little hockey arenas onlyl have -17 amp service anywhere in the buildings.
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Hi CB,
The customer took my advice and decided to make the cotton candy at his business and bag it for the trucks.
I suggested a snow cone machine in the truck instead and it looks like it will fly.
At 5.3 amps, and much less counter space, they fit into the project just fine.
http://www.epopcorn.com/arblsncoma.html
He will sacrifice some dipping cabnit space for ice but, since the trucks are never more then 5 miles from home base
they can always make a pit stop at their shop where I have recently installed a new 1800lb cuber on a 1500lb Follett bin.
Nick-
PS, the camra systems that were delivered to me are going back for a better system.. I will keep you posted.
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Hi CB,
The customer took my advice and decided to make the cotton candy at his business and bag it for the trucks.
MIght as well just have a large cooler to keep the crushed ice in.. ON the shows we only had one grinding station for the food table and hand delivered to them where they kept the crushed ice in regular igloo coolers for making the sno cones with. there is no need to keep all of this equipment in the truck and use power especially only being 5 miles away. a large iglooo cooler would suffice , space is a commodity. plus grinders cost money and have a higher chance of being damaged or dropped every time the vechicle moves not to mentino the traffic issues and more power usage. p.s. main storage for ice is in stainless bins with vynil covers on wheels.. really no reason to move the grinder around anymore than necessary. only way I could conceive of transporting that would be if I did not know how far the route would carry me. but then again the igloo coolers keep ice shavings alive almost all day even outside in las vegas heat outside of the new orleans casino, or the thomas and mack depending on the venue being used, (which does vary in las vegas-unlike other city's I have played)
I suggested a snow cone machine in the truck instead and it looks like it will fly.
At 5.3 amps, and much less counter space, they fit into the project just fine.
http://www.epopcorn.com/arblsncoma.html
He will sacrifice some dipping cabnit space for ice but, since the trucks are never more then 5 miles from home base
they can always make a pit stop at their shop where I have recently installed a new 1800lb cuber on a 1500lb Follett bin.
Nick-
PS, the camra systems that were delivered to me are going back for a better system.. I will keep you posted.
speaking of which does anyone think a 200 amp alternator would suffice to run 14 amps of freezers and a laptop(1.5 amps) using a 2500 watt(5000 peak ) inverter? without dipping into my batteries?? need somesuggestions .. the laptop is for accounting and gps purposes. need to keep tabs on my new and untried employee 8)
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Hi CB,
First you would need a hefty battery bank matched to your needs. It may, if your alt. is actually putting
out 200 amps. The problem with automotive alternators is that you are not always running them at maximum
speed and you may be depleting your batteries at long traffic lights and city driving.
Is this in a bus or your car/truck?
Nick-
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speaking of which does anyone think a 200 amp alternator would suffice to run 14 amps of freezers and a laptop(1.5 amps) using a 2500 watt(5000 peak ) inverter? without dipping into my batteries?? need somesuggestions .. the laptop is for accounting and gps purposes. need to keep tabs on my new and untried employee 8)
12 volt would be pushing it as you would need just about full ouput if all 15.5 amp was active all the time. With freezers you shouldn't have tehm constantly running unless they are open all the time. I have no idea if a typical 200 amp alternator can handle full output on a regular basis or not. If this was 24 volt then no problem with a 200 amp alternator.
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ok how hard is it to install a second charging system just for the inverter??? 24 (200 amp)volt even,,, I"m thinking a second alternator running 24 volt with third rectifier in a box outside of the alternator(having two). and running a totally dedicated deep cycle 24 volt battery to just run my inverter which of course would have to be 24 volt? but then again I don't plan on running the normal 12 volt 200 amp one (read one alternator install ) at full blast all the time any how just wanting the fact that it runs at 100 amps at idle so that I don't dip down into using my battery's period. ::)
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Hired help involved?
Too complicated, too much fooling around, employee won't care and will run it until there's smoke in the air, and ask when you will be writing his last paycheck.
Hard to beat spending $2500 or so on a Yamaha or Honda quiet gas 3000 watt model.
With religious oil changes, they will run for a very long and profitable time.
Simple, and when it craps, replace immediately either new or rental.
And, no running the main engine except to move the truck. Have to be some idling rules where this thing is operating....?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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ok I tried the 3k inverter and it's barely not enought.... will be fabricating a 8' x 8' walkin freezer soon anticipating 15 amps for that and killing one freezer so gross amperage will be growing by 3 amps, thinking of 8" thick walls floor and having 12 inch thick roof as heat from the roof will be the major factor I'll be combating.
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Hi CB,
Your horse power will be determined by the temp you need to keep in the WIF.
8X8x7 box will need 1 hp unit to maintain 10 deg.F
At 0 deg F, you will need 1 1/2 hp
At -10 deg F you will need 3 hp, ect..
To add to your troubles, you will also need a defrost system, a heated drain, and door frame heaters so you can open the door.. ;D
With that said, even the 1 hp unit will be 230v and draw 16 amps. Then add all the heaters in on top of that. All these figures are if
you were sitting still... You may have to double the HP if driving down the road at 60mph!
Seems like alot to run off of an inverter. You would be better off finding a used ThormoKing unit off a truck which runs on diesel..
Good Luck
Nick-
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what thermoking unit would be able to maintain -20 at those maeusurements??? I'm aware that the doors are heated. thankx wondering if i could use a rooftop ac unit blowing cold air into the unit from above. is 13500 btu enough?? please educate me to this freezer math. please thank you 8)
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A thermoking unit can run below zero and chill a 40 foot refer van.
It all in the type of refrigerant and type of cooling unit.
You might find one for a box freezer delivery truck that has a dual source.
Like 220 volts when plugged in and a built in small diesel when on the road.
A rooftop a/c unit is limited to about 32 degrees if you are lucky and about that time it's iced up and quits cooling.They weren't designed for refrigeration.
Don't ask me more cause I don't know.. Nick will get you headed in the right direction.. He is a whiz at making stuff cold...
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what thermoking unit would be able to maintain -20 at those maeusurements??? I'm aware that the doors are heated. thankx wondering if i could use a rooftop ac unit blowing cold air into the unit from above. is 13500 btu enough?? please educate me to this freezer math. please thank you 8)
You must want to haul Ice Cream with -20 needs?
Ok, let me show you how to convert Horse Power into BTU's. It's simple, 9000 btu's = 1 HP. and there are 12,000 btu's in a ton.
So at -10 deg, a 3hp unit = 27,000 btu's. This 3hp unit is quite large and consists of a reciever tank to store liquid. Usually 3 phase...
At -20, you would need a 5hp unit and a 45,000 btu evaporator coil/blower for inside the box.
I will find some pics
Nick-
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Or you could just buy this ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-FORD-F650-REEFER-FREEZER-16FT-BOX-TRUCK-NO-RESERVE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1171Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3353b9299fQQitemZ220447975839QQptZCommercialQ5fTrucks