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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: 1960eagle on March 17, 2010, 06:42:44 PM

Title: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: 1960eagle on March 17, 2010, 06:42:44 PM
Greetings.I am considering going with auto trans to swap out the spicer 4spd.Kind of wondered about doing it with the 8v71n having only so much power,and loss of mpg.anyone who has done the swap out with pros&cons?     Thanks.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Lin on March 17, 2010, 07:34:37 PM
I am in the process now.  There may be some loss of power and mileage, but I am not convinced it will be noticeable.  In my case, I am expecting an increase in power because of going from C60 to N65 injectors.  I also contend that there should not a loss of mileage since the extra power may
let me travel the hills one gear up.  Still just hypothetical though.  Aside from the convenience of the automatic, I consider the Spicer 4 speed a lousy choice.  The low gears are just too high to be dependable in hill country, especially if you need to stop and start on a serious grade.  If one were in a traffic jam going up the Grapevine, you would be able to calculate miles per clutch.  I have also been on hills that the Spicer could not even make in first and had to back down.  I did barely get over it with a one half mile racing start though.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Melbo on March 17, 2010, 07:51:55 PM
I drove a worn out 71 with a spicer and did fine but the engine would overheat

The cost of the rebuild and trade out to an auto was about the same as a complete repower and trans change

I now have a cummins L10 with a ZF tranny ( don't google tranny )

The 71 was max a 318HP and the L10 is 275HP and doesn't overheat.

I got MAX 6 mpg from the 71 more realistically 5 and now 6 is my minimum -- typically  up to 7

I live in NM and drive the mountains any direction I travel and like my setup

YMMV

HTH

Melbo
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 17, 2010, 08:23:01 PM
1960, your not going to see much difference in fuel or power with a automatic your 71 without the double cooler some type cooler for the transmission will be needed but cooling the engine on your Eagle is not going to be a problem it is the MCI guy's that have that problem.
If it were me and that 01 did not have power steering I would spend the bucks on power steering before a automatic.




Mel, when you leave exit 153 heading west which one of the 3 lanes are you in I am in the left lol.
 I'll be there Mon everything is close to normal here now and I will call you when I get there and you , Eddie,Jim and myself will have lunch if you are around.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Melbo on March 17, 2010, 08:59:02 PM
Clifford

I live in the right lane but if I am really in a hurry I should be driving the Zcar not the bus

I look forward to seeing you when you get here

Melbo
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: 1960eagle on March 17, 2010, 09:10:34 PM
What type/price would be good for p/s ? I get about 10-12 mpg right now with the 4spd and would rather have air throttle and power steering.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 17, 2010, 09:26:15 PM
Eagles take Ross power steering find a truck wrecking yard and buy one from a R series Mack truck bolts up to the bracket that will need a little reinforcement not a real big job but not easy running the lines to the front.
Pratt on the Eagles board has a complete air throttle for a Eagle with a 8v71 listed there in the mall for 250 used very little. 


good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: busguy01 on March 18, 2010, 06:00:05 AM
With a 01 you can go to a 60 series with automatic and will think you have a whole new bus! I did so back in 2001 and glad I did it. Was an easy install and made the Eagle into a great unit.  I think it can be done for the price of a good overhaul and auto install if you can do the work yourself. Took me about 40 hours over a month or so. At a later date I changed the rear end to a 3:36 but now that prices have gone down on B500s the would not be needed. I know where a low milage 60 series and B 500 are for sale for $10K.
Just a thought. By the way -- be glad you have an 01. With the tag behind the drivers it opens up a lot of change over possibilites.
JimH
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Dreamscape on March 18, 2010, 06:17:40 AM
Hey Noel,

These are my thoughts for our needs. My "Armstrong" steering works great. I'll change it over to power after I put in an Automatic. For me the auto comes first, I'll explain why.

Our intentions are to pull an enclosed trailer, with toad and stuff. I'll stay away from big, long hills when I can. We live in ours fulltime and I need more space for projects and tools.

The auto for us is a must for even the sligthtest grade pulling a trailer. When on short trips we'll just pull the toad. I'm building a hitch right now and have the tow bar.

First gear in a spicer is too high, fourth gear is rediculous. I just don't like the thought of smelling a burnt clutch. It should bring me some fuel money at the local recycler, otherwise it's just a boat anchor. Our temps have never gotten over 180 with our 8v71N, hoping to add a turbo at a later date.

All of this is always subject to change, as we'll do it our way! ;D

Paul
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 08:33:41 AM
We each do it different but if I had a 8v71 and a bus with no power steering I would install the steering and install a 9 or 10 speed in mine you can buy a Road Ranger for 300 bucks and it is a big improvement for a 8v71 and a easy install plus you have a range of gears to choose from, Bob Gilbert is out here running the hills and mountains with his 8v71 and 10 speed in his Eagle and having no problems


good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: 1960eagle on March 18, 2010, 08:56:42 AM
I like your idea of 60series and automatic jimH,however i am a little concerned about the brakes on my 01,they are not really what i would call great.they work ok just wish i could beef up the action.have adjusted them but havent driven it since adjustment.I dont like feeling that pucker up feeling when braking! I do like the roadranger 10spd idea,dont know about my single rod shift rod and how that would workout?  Ideas?       thanks
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 09:07:14 AM
1960, you are not going to have great brakes on the 01 till you upgrade to the late model 05 or 10 shoes and drums not enough shoe or drum surface on the 01 for great brakes.
Do you have a Jake it will help some


good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: TomC on March 18, 2010, 09:30:22 AM
1960-if you do switch to an automatic (the HT740 is the best choice-HT754CR is the close ratio 5spd, but it isn't as robust as the 4spd HT740), I highly recommend you keep the C60 injectors just to try, since there is definitely a fuel mileage hit going to the N65's since injector timing is different.  I had brown tag N65's in my bus and got 4.5-6mpg.  I have since turbocharged and air to air intercooled the engine with 9G75 injectors.  I still get 4.5-6.5mpg, but the performance difference is remarkable-without any change in altitude.
I like the Allison automatics so much, on my Kenworth truck conversion, I took out the 13spd overdrive manual and replaced it with the HT740.  Man, what a performance difference.  I can accelerate with cars from a signal (course I'm only 28,000lbs without anything installed yet).  And I do know how to shift.  When I removed the 13spd, my truck had nearly 1.2 million miles on it with the original clutch-and there was still some wear left on the clutch lining.  If you do anything-install the Allison automatic, it will make driving a real pleasure, with backing, starting, and stuck in traffic no big deal.  Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 09:50:59 AM
Noel, one more comment then I'll leave $500 vs $5000 it your call with the $500 giving you better results if you don't mind shifting gears btw I have a Allison in my Eagle



good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Lin on March 18, 2010, 10:18:04 AM
Clifford is sure right about there being a large cost difference.  However, I do not think it is totally fair since it compares the price of rebuilt Allison to a takeout Road Ranger.  If you go with rebuilt, the RR is going to be above $2000.  Also, if you plan on changing the clutch at the same time, you can add from $1000.- $2000. depending on whether you do the installation yourself.  For me, since the whole project started with needing a clutch and I do not do that work myself, the clutch cost became a credit toward the Allison.  This is with an MC5a though, so you should adjust my figures to your model.

Oh, and one other thing.  Which transmission do you want?  Even if you are saving money with the manual, if it is not what you want it is somewhat of a waste, n'est pas?
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Dreamscape on March 18, 2010, 11:31:03 AM
Noel,

I just got off the phone with Bob Gilbert. I had him explain to me why he chose the RR over an Auto. He just thinks it's a better choice for the 8v71 and like Clifford says, he loves it. Come to TBR 2010, Bob will be there, then we can pick his brain some. He says that hills that he would have to downshift into 2nd or third with the spicer, going maybe 25-35. He can take the same hill at 55 now.

I maybe changing my attitude now! ;)

Paul
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 11:50:52 AM
Paul, you would change your mind anyway when you have to cut some of the frame and redo it on the drivers side to make a 740 fit in the 01 and early 05's lol 


good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: 1960eagle on March 18, 2010, 11:53:55 AM
I am thinking 9 or 10 spd roadranger would be my choice over automatic,given the cost and the 01 brake performance,that way i could shift to help braking.have to know the details of the rr swap out.shift controls,needed parts etc.just found source of a nasty oil leak at the left side fuel rod tube hose{split}trying to figure out best way to replace the hose.   thanks.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 12:03:24 PM
Noel, that leak is not a easy fix remove the valve cover and the top of the governor remove the pins pull the fuel rod remove the 2 1/4 inch bolts on the head holding the tube and those are not hoses if you need 2 I will send them or buy from Stewart and Stevenson for 6 bucks with the new style clamps btw replace both if one is bad



good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: 1960eagle on March 18, 2010, 12:14:01 PM
Would you happen to know the part #s or if you have a couple of of extras i would be happy to pay you for them,i am finding out that this oil leak repair is not going to be fun.   thanks.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Dreamscape on March 18, 2010, 03:40:54 PM
Noel,

I'll get a list from Bob. He told me what he did, not much but messing with the shifter tower, linkage and running an air line to the switch. He also said something about a heavy duty clutch. And of course the correct bell housing, one's smaller than the other. The 8v71 takes the larger size.

Not sure how you would do it with a one rod system though. I'm sure Clifford would know.

Paul
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 04:09:22 PM
Why would you want to change the bell housing Paul you have a SAE 1 now the SAE 2 was only used with smaller Allisons like a 644.
Bob changed his clutch because he had a old button type which Eagle never used and he wanted a double disk why he wanted one of those rattling thing I don't know but it is a lot better than a button type and will last a long time.   



good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: 1960eagle on March 18, 2010, 05:10:00 PM
Thanks Paul.I look forward to seeing the list of parts needed for the roadranger swap out.Got the tube&rod off for the oil leak,wasnt all that bad.rack seems real nice and smooth.will set it while i am there.appears that i have C65 injectors.   thanks.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 06:59:06 PM
Now you 2 guys will spend weeks trying to decide on what gear ratio transmission to use lol and how many gears 8,9, 10 the list goes on 



good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: buswarrior on March 18, 2010, 07:22:12 PM
Why stop at 10?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: luvrbus on March 18, 2010, 07:36:57 PM
I can not count past 10 BW lol 


good luck
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Dreamscape on March 18, 2010, 08:17:41 PM
Clifford, I was just going by what Bob told me. As I understand this over time it'll all come together. I'm sure you will guide me............again huh! ;)

Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: DaveG on March 18, 2010, 08:34:40 PM
Get a 10 spd rather than a 9 if you can. Also, there are a few different ratios avail. in the 10s, along with direct in 10th or overdrive in 10th.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: TomC on March 18, 2010, 10:39:41 PM
Personally-after 1.2 million miles of driving, I can tell you that the 10 spd is a pain in the butt to shift compared to the 9 spd.  If you get a B model 9 spd, it will be a wide ratio and can have overdrive. 
Why is the 10spd a pain?  Because (on both transmissions) you start in second gear normally, then shift through the normal H pattern to fifth gear position.  On both the 9 and 10spd, you then pull up the button from low to high range, but on the 10spd, you shift back to first gear position which is a hard pull over to the side (you have to go through the reverse detente) and pull it down.  On the 9spd you go from fifth gear position (which is right down) to second gear position (which is middle and up position). Just a much easier transition, and you don't need 10 speeds in a bus.  In fact, the manual transmission I would use is a 7spd overdrive, since it is in one gear shift without any air operated range selector.  Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Dreamscape on March 19, 2010, 03:08:04 AM
You may not need 10 speeds in a bus, but they are there if you need the range. I don't plan on driving 1.9 million miles, only a few thousand each year. It would take me 633 years to drive that far, and I don't have that long! ::)
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: RJ on March 19, 2010, 08:51:41 AM
I'm not sure what Tom's grumble with the 10-spd's shift pattern is.  I never had any problem with it in the Crowns & Gilligs I drove that had them.

Then again, they weren't 80,000 lbs either, so I was skip-shifting a lot.  Agree that it's a long throw from 5 > 6 or 4 >6, but really not that bad.

The pattern, btw, looks like this for most 10-spd RoadRangers:


R      2/7   4/9
|       |       |
|-----|-----|
|       |       |
1/6   3/8   5/10


Now, one school district I worked for had a Gillig pusher with a 10-spd RR in it, and the shift pattern looked like this:


5/10    3/8    1/6
|           |        |
|--------|------|
|           |        |
4/9       2/7    R


Talk about something to screw with the minds of newbie drivers with - especially since the linkage was so worn that it was like trying to stir pudding with a wet spaghetti noodle!

Because the gearbox is turned around in a pusher configuration, there's a little something extra to tinker with when installing one in the Eagle.  Unless you want to use it as an anti-theft deterrent!

Paul -  I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around your friend Bob's claim that hills he used to take at 25 - 35 can now be taken at 55, simply because of a gearbox changeout.  5 - 10 mph faster, maybe, but not 20.  Little things called gravity & power-to-weight ratio play a BIG role. . .  My experience has been that the three-axle Crown, loaded w/ 90 jr hi kids, still did 35 mph up the long 6% grades we've got around here.  Empty it would do 45.  Hmmmmm, think that might be a little like Jack Conrad's claim that his MC-8 gets 11 mpg?  (5 in town & 6 highway = 11, right?)

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)




Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Lin on March 19, 2010, 12:30:50 PM
I did consider an RR too.  Among other things, it is a virtual guaranty that you will be the only one that can drive it.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Just Dallas on March 19, 2010, 12:44:50 PM
Removed
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: chuckd on March 19, 2010, 02:17:04 PM
Hey something I know a little about.  I have had two Volvo Class 8s to pull my fifth wheel, one with a 10 spd and one with a 13 spd.  Total weight was about 36,000 lbs so lightly loaded.  Started in 4th, then fifth, then 7-10.  Always "float" shifted so only used the clutch at standstill.  It does take a little time to learn how to float shift, especially down shifting, but if you float shift the Spicer's now it should be the same.  If you use a clutch it will take a little adjustment and a lesson or two.

Chuckd
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Dreamscape on March 19, 2010, 02:28:07 PM
RJ

Just remember that I was only trying to remember what he told me, I think I got it right! ;)

I won't be using all the gears all the time anyway, so it's a moot point.

I'm not concerned with the shift pattern much, as it'll get learned one way or another. I like the theft deterant part though! ;)

I'm looking for low cost, more choices to shift depending on the situation, and most important, an easier install than making a whole lot of modifications to the package. I  don't mind doing the work, just need to find a place to do it when the time comes.

Dallas brings up a valid point that I hadn't considered a few months back. After digging into this I can see the benefits. I'm in no hurry as we sit most of the time anyway, but when we start to travel more in a year or so I want to be ready.

We'll stay away from the Rocky's ;D
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Lin on March 19, 2010, 03:15:14 PM
Dallas,

Even with an automatic I would be concerned about letting someone drive the bus in this area.  If it were a flat run, you could give someone the wheel right by the Interstate on ramp and tell them to just keep it going at 60-65 and all will be fine.  But when you add the hills, their is much more information involved.  Remember, we live in CA., and grades are the norm.  They would have to be instructed in using the Jakes if available, or how else to handle descents without over revving the engine.  This already limits who you will let drive.  Now add to that a simple H pattern 4 speed, and you have limited it a bit more.  Add double clutching to that, and they drop like flies.  Now just to make it more interesting, add on double the gears by a button on the shifter and tell them that will not need to use it most of the time anyway.  If there is anyone left, just tell them, "Oh yeah, don't forget the shift pattern is backwards." 

I learned the Spicer with and without the clutch.  I 'm sure the I would learn the RR too in whatever configuration, but I am just pointing out that driving it is a practiced skill.  Many here have huge amounts of experience and can drive anything without thinking about it.  But that is not the general case.  What percentage of wives really do share the driving?  I would guess it is pretty low.  Could they carefully creep along the Interstate, with coaching, if it were necessary?  With an automatic-- maybe.  With a double clutching backward 10 speed...?  The same goes for anyone else that might travel with us.  I might as well die in the driver's seat.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Just Dallas on March 19, 2010, 03:42:00 PM
Removed
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: TomC on March 19, 2010, 03:58:46 PM
9spd looks like this:

   R   2/6  4/8
   |    |    |
   |---|---|
   |    |    |
   1   3/7  5/9
 
Just easier to shift-nothing wrong with the 10spd-considering it is the standard transmission in trucks now.  Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Lin on March 19, 2010, 04:39:33 PM
Dallas,

I could have wrong info, but when I looked into switching to the RR, I was told that pushing with it would require the trans facing 180 degrees from a truck installation and that that would reverse the shift pattern.  I think that the lack of experience I use as my reference is the real key.  Having driven numerous standard transmission cars, I still found that there was a learning curve on the bus.  I even had a bus with synchro before, and I found that "upgrading" to the Spicer still required adaption.  Now, I know that I might not be at the top of the heap of gear jammers, but I also know that I am probably above the national average.  Therefore, using that as a reference point, I can be sure that most people will even take longer to learn it than I did.  And that assumes that they even want to.

The suggestion that no one else drive the bus is reasonable but not absolute.  I have friends that have good experience with large motorhomes that could be candidates to drive the bus if necessary if it had an automatic.  Having learned this stuff at age 12, you might not have a good feel of what it is to learn at 60+.  Why, I learned to speak English as a mere child and haven't been able to learn another language since.  At age 12, if you missed a shift coming down a grade, you just said, "Weeeee"!   As an adult, you might start calculating unpleasant consequences.

By the way, I am not saying that the RR is a bad option.  I think the Spicer is a bad option and things only get better from there.  The RR is probably a excellent choice if you enjoy what it can do.  Personally, I think an Autoshift would be the best, but an Allison is next.
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Just Dallas on March 19, 2010, 04:54:11 PM
Removed
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Bestekustoms on March 19, 2010, 05:59:15 PM
GOOD STUFF !!!!

Well, I Already Have Power Steering On My 69 05 Eagle. So...The Next Step Must Have To Be The Roadranger 10 Speed.. RIGHT ??

One Of My Crowns Has The RR 10 Speed And It Really Kicks Butt !! Sounds Like To Me This Would Be A Great Combo On A Mostly Stock Eagle.

 IM GAME :o

Hopefully There Will Be More To Come On This Post About Doing This Conversion ? Sounds Good To Me....

So...A RR In A Crown Would Do The Trick Right ? They Are All The Same Correct ??

I Heard Someone Say That There Is An Eagle Out There That Has A RR 10 With The Shifter At The Drivers Window Side Of The Drivers Seat :o  Now How Would That Be For Shifting !!!  LOL !!! ;D. I Know Whos Bus It Is...And Will Get More Info On The Conversion.

Has Anyone Here ...Done This Change Over ??

JOHN
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: TomC on March 20, 2010, 08:47:53 AM
On the RR facing backwards on a rear pusher, Eaton makes a reverse shifter that changes the shift pattern to make it seem correct at the driver's seat. 
I was once on a Dina bus in Mex and it had a 10 speed with reversed gear pattern and what they call a U shift overdrive.  I watched the driver drive the bus and obviously he'd been driving it for a while. But-it would definitely take a learning curve.  Here it is:

   4/9   3/8   1/6
     |      |      |
     |-----|----|
     |      |      |
   5/10  2/7   R
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Lin on March 21, 2010, 11:14:33 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot another disadvantage to the automatic--it's hard for the wife to push start!
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: rdbishop on March 25, 2010, 01:53:21 PM
Are these trans. 7, 9, 10spd the mesh kind or do they have square corners like the spicer 4 spd?
Richard
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: RJ on March 25, 2010, 11:58:34 PM
Richard -

Square.


FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: Happycampersrus on March 26, 2010, 04:32:25 AM
Was there ever a synchronized 4 or 5 speed that could be used behind a 92 or 71??

I've allways wondered. :)
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: lostagain on March 26, 2010, 06:48:45 AM
MCI Courier 96s have a 5 speed synchromesh Spicer behind the 4-71. (Except 1st gear). Probably not strong enough for a 92 though. I don't double clutch going up, but I do going down. And it is stiff, takes lots of effort to shift it. I remember they were all like that. 1st gear is really low, nice for starting.

JC
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: TomC on March 26, 2010, 07:56:59 AM
The biggest synchronized transmission made is the Eaton Fuller 6spd overdrive rated at 860lb/ft torque.  In terms of engine-you could run a 8V-71N with up to 70 injectors, or a 8V-71T with up to 60 injectors, or a 6V-92TA with 75 injectors.

This has always been a real thorn in my side since all European truck manufacturers have been using synchronized transmissions for well over 15 years.  In 1998 went on a bus tour in Europe on a DAF (Dutch Automotive Fabrication) bus with a straight 8 spd-no splitter.  The bus driver only missed two shifts the entire 3 weeks.  Eaton Fuller's answer to this was to create the Autoshift (with a clutch pedal), the UltraShift (without a clutch pedal using a centrifugal clutch [which seems to only get about 100,000 miles of life-hence the next generation-]), the new UltraShift Plus that uses an electronically controlled standard clutch for more control (mainly you can creep with it at idle speeds), and much longer clutch life.  With talking to our transmission overhaulers and service managers, there are many different scenarios that will cause an Eaton Fuller Autoshift type transmission to break down that just doesn't exist in the Allison transmission. With the new programming that Allison has now, they are claiming only a 1-2% fuel mileage difference between the Allison and Autoshift.  When comparing a manual shift to Allison-the Allison wins most of the time (unless you are a very good shifter 100% of the time-which we all know doesn't happen.  I crunched gears many times-especially when tired).  Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: rv_safetyman on March 26, 2010, 02:03:30 PM
TomC, I would be interested in knowing what can go wrong with the AutoShift.  After all of my problems with the Series 60, I don't want to have any issues with the AutoShift.  I assume it is in the electronics.  I normally carry most of the electronic parts with me.

Jim
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: DaveG on March 26, 2010, 06:07:22 PM
Richard -

Square.


FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)

RJ, I laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: DaveG on March 26, 2010, 06:09:46 PM
On the RR facing backwards on a rear pusher, Eaton makes a reverse shifter that changes the shift pattern to make it seem correct at the driver's seat. 
I was once on a Dina bus in Mex and it had a 10 speed with reversed gear pattern and what they call a U shift overdrive.  I watched the driver drive the bus and obviously he'd been driving it for a while. But-it would definitely take a learning curve.  Here it is:

   4/9   3/8   1/6
     |      |      |
     |-----|----|
     |      |      |
   5/10  2/7   R

Tom, any more info or nomenclature on the reverse shifter for Eaton? Sounds like a great idea
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: TomC on March 26, 2010, 10:36:45 PM
Dave- I believe Eaton calls the reverse shifter the "X Shifter". Just call their help line and tell them you have a rear engine bus and want to have the shifter work the standard way.

Jim- the big problem with the AutoShift compared to the Allison, is that the wiring for the AutoShift is on the outside of the transmission case compared to the Allison's internal wiring.  Hence, alot of connector, dirt, and vibration problems.  Also the X-Y motor shifters on top of the transmission should be changed every 300,000 miles, whether they need it or not.  The motors also can be affected by weather (mainly cold) changes.
The best thing you can do is to make sure your X-Y motor shifters are fairly recent, and make sure all your connection are tight and supported.  When the X-Y motor shifters get tired, they can present an in between gear shift that will present the transmission as though it is in neutral.  When changing the X-Y motor shifters, it is a good idea to open the top of the transmission to inspect the shifting forks for wear.

No transmission is perfect.  While you get maximum fuel economy from the AutoShift, you still have a clutch to operate when stopping and starting, the acceleration is slow and ponderous from the signal, and there are much more wiring problems (as discussed above).  While the Allison does not have the wiring problems, the torque converter does make for tremendous acceleration from the signal, but with fuel mileage hit since the clutches in the Allison do drag a bit-to the tune of about 20hp loss.  And even though the AutoShift has 10spds (the first 5 just to get it rolling-of which the torque converter in the Allison takes care of that) and those 10 spds are spaced just about equally, the Allison's gears are spaced wide apart in the lower gears, then bunched closer together near the top with 5th and 6th only about 200rpm apart from each other making for better freeway cruising.  But- you make you choice.  Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: automatic vs 4spd
Post by: rv_safetyman on March 27, 2010, 06:59:54 AM
TomC, your answer on the AutoShift is pretty much what I had suspected.  I have had some pretty significant issues with the electrical connections.  During all of my trials and tribulations with the replacement Series 60 (included several transmission fault codes), I completely rebuilt the harness.  Both large connectors on the transmission ECM are really not very robust (tend to come loose).  The tabs that lock the connections to the ECM tend to fail (on the Series 60 these size connections have a machine screw to secure the connection - much better).  I talked to the local Eaton rep and he said folks use strong wire ties to secure the connections.  I "remoted" the ECM to a location I can get to better and made a very robust wire tie "harness".

I had not heard about the motor shifters having problems, but I am not surprised.  I had corresponded with Boogiethecat quite a bit and his opinion was that the components were not all that robust.  I normally carry an extra set of motors as well as the two ECMs (transmission and tower), since I have an extra unit.  Don't have them on this trip {gulp} :o :o.

Jim
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