BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: LesBerg on March 21, 2011, 12:22:10 PM
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Hey everyone!
I caught the bug, and bad. My wife and I are looking for an RV and almost everything we've looked at has been S&S. Then I saw it:
http://spokane.craigslist.org/rvs/2257300596.html (http://spokane.craigslist.org/rvs/2257300596.html)
I'm a gearhead, IT Pro, semi-pro fabricator, and can't get enough of classic vehicles, so the appeal of the bus was nearly instant.
I gave the guy a call, and he says it's a '58 Greyhound 4104. It's a no-propane conversion and 'single-fuel' as the gen is diesel too.
Everything I know about 4104s (and busses in general) I learned here over the last two days researching 4104s. I did a search for '4104' and I've read every post up to the middle of page 14. I've worked with the DD 671 v6 in the Army in my M113a2, and I was an over-the-road truck R&R mechanic for about 5 years after I got out in '95, so I know a bit about drivelines, electrical, suspension, etc.
I'm not up on the internals of the motor though, as I was the operator for the M113, and the engine work was for a different set of mechanics. The most I've done is basic PMCS (preventive maintenance checks and services) and replaced a blower drive shaft a few times.
If we can scrape the money together for the bus, we'll go over to Spokane and check it out (about a 45 minute drive).
I have a few primary things I want to check out to make sure that the positively work correctly:
- brakes
- Engine controls;throttle, gearshift, clutch, and gages & lights
- brakes & wheel bearings
- tires, engine fluids, mufflers
- brakes
- air beams and suspension (looking for corrosion and malfunctions
We're looking to full-time for a while with the family - myself, Tichelle, my wife, and our two kids, 7 & 9 (ages, not names ;) ). She's an independent training developer and I'm currently out of work, but we're both looking at relocating from the Boise area.
Reasons for wanting to full-time for a while:
- Poor job market in Boise, we're open to relocation (and hoping to)
- When we land a job or decide to head to a specific area, we don't want to be in a position where we have to take the first rental that would get us out of a hotel.
- We've both been considering full-timing off and on for ten years or more
- Our kids want to
- Staying with my parents is driving us nuts - though it's a short trip.
My reasons for wanting to go the bus route are (tell me if I'm crazy):
*ease of maintenance/serviceability as compared to a S&S rv (good luck with engine work)
* familiarity with the driveline, suspension, and brake systems - very durable and uncomplicted compared to 'light-duty' parts on todays S&S RVs
*load towing capabilities (my M113 with this powerplant was 13 tons empty). I have read the various threads concerning towing with busses, including the 4104, and I'm confident that I could fabricate the necessary subframe if needed.
* better durability than a typical S&S Rv
* we can't get into a diesel RV anywhere near the price this 4104 is listed for.
If we can come up with the finances to buy this bus (assuming it's not shot), is there anyone in the Spokane / Coeur d'Alene area that would help us look this thing over?
Thanks much!
Les Berg
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Les,
Welcome to the madness! It looks like it could be a great buy! (if it's all that &/or more!)
Clifford will probably be able to point you in the direction of who would be best to go over it with/for you!
Good luck in your up coming ventures and say hello to my kin folk in Nampa as you hit the road! (My uncle Fred used to be an IT guy for HP in Boise before he retired a couple yrs back!)
;D BK ;D
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Welcome aboard Les, good to see another Army Vet. Do spend some time researching prices as it is very competitive market lately, it is good that you got some skills, will come in very handy indeed. I got out in 95 also! Back in after 911 and out for good in 07, oh the 113's carried a 6v53 by the way ;) ;D. Glad to have ya's on board, welcome to the madness ;D
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6v53, gotcha! By the pictures it's a similar engine, correct?
There is another bus local that I want to check out, but I really would prefer this one at the moment.
Thanks for the input, guys!
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Welcome Lesberg and family
Sorry to see a busnut leave Boise, got to do what you got to do. I live in Boise. Can't give much help on looking for a bus, still looking for the right bus my shelf. But if you or your family need anything let me know. Good luck Stay safe
Kevin
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welcome--don't know much about 4104 but others here are experts. Bob
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That bus has been for sale a long time he started out asking 15,000 a year ago the 4104 has a inline 671 Detroit and I don't know anybody up there that could help you if it was back in Boise I could help it's probably a 3 to 5 thousand bus,and I would want some backup on the 18,000 rebuild on a 671
good luck
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Welcome Lesberg and family
Sorry to see a busnut leave Boise, got to do what you got to do. I live in Boise. Can't give much help on looking for a bus, still looking for the right bus my shelf. But if you or your family need anything let me know. Good luck Stay safe
Kevin
we are both still looking for work in Boise, we are just looking to keep our options open. At the moment, Tichelle is working from home and I am hoping to hear back on a state job. We're staying up in Athol right now, as it is cheaper to drive to Boise for interviews than to live there full time.
It's a long story, but it boils down to 'we have to go where the work is'. Tichelle was laid off last november, and so far the best (other) jobs in Boise all pay less than half of what she was making before. She interviewed with companies in Madison, WI and Minneapolis and all have been better pay than Boise, though Minneapolis has a much higher cost of living.
In an effort to get us into an RV, I have my 74 Dart Sport and my 67 F100 up for sale locally, but no luck so far. (<--- not an attempt to try to sell them here). I'm going to head over to Glenn Vaughn's Restorations tomorrow and see if he's hiring - I worked for him about 7 years ago.
BTW - If any of you ever find yourselves broken down up in the Spokane, Coeur d' Alene area, stay away from Ross Point Truck Repair. I worked there for a few months back around 2001 or so. The lead mechanic (a guy I went to school with) told me a horror story that happened just a few months before I started there:
An old couple in their 80s from Portland had been saving for a vacation for ten years or so had their RV overheat on I90 in Post Falls. They had the misfortune to be towed to Ross Point Truck Repair, where the shop foreman discovered that the problem was a failed thermostat. The owner and service writer bullied the couple into completely replacing the cooling system in the RV - radiator, heater core, water pump - everything. The final bill came to $3000, very close to what the couple had saved to go on vacation. The owner and the service writer knew how much money the couple had, as they sat in the office with them talking for the two days it took to complete the 'repairs'. The morning after repairs were completed they headed back to Portland, the vacation was over.
I have no first-hand proof that this happened, but there were many other things that happened at the shop that give me no reason to believe that it didn't happen exactly as told to me. For example:
He even got his dad. The owner's dad called one day asking if we could come out and air up a flat so he could drive to a local tire shop. I was on call that day, so I drove out, aired up the tire, and sent him on his way. There was no way I was going to bill the guy for airing up the tire.
I passed the office on the way to lunch that day and I overheard him billing his dad $75 for the callout - $25 callout fee and $50 for the 1/2 hour minimum. He was nice enough to waive the $5 per mile charge.
The crazy thing is, if his dad had just called the tire shop he was heading to in the first place, they would have come and aired the tire up for free, then repaired the tire at the shop - also for free.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just wanted to warn you all away from that place.
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That bus has been for sale a long time he started out asking 15,000 a year ago the 4104 has a inline 671 Detroit and I don't know anybody up there that could help you if it was back in Boise I could help it's probably a 3 to 5 thousand bus,and I would want some backup on the 18,000 rebuild on a 671
good luck
That's good to know, thanks! I had planned on asking if he had any paperwork on the engine rebuild, and I suspect he won't.
Hmm. He offered to knock off another $500 if I bought it this week. I'm starting to wonder if I should start looking elsewhere. We are on a very short budget, but I don't want to buy into something that needs high dollar maintenance right off the bat.
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Les,
If the bus runs as good as he says and has paperwork it is not a bad deal. Right now you can get a lot of bus for the money. I have a 1960 4104 that I paid $5,000 for and it had a rebuilt motor and was well taken care of. I like the older buses because there is a lot less to working on them. However, you have to remember that some parts are harder to find. My bus is perfect for long weekends and week vacations, but I might like a bigger coach if I was going to fulltime. I just don't think you can beat the nostalgia of the 4104.
Good Luck
Mike
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I spoke to Micheal about his bus. he was all about setting a 7-10 day time line and trying to cut me a deal. I got tired of his pressure and constant repeating of the deal he was willing to do if we could complete in 7-10 days.
He has NO receipts for the " 18K engine work". I asked about the turbo and he confirmed there was a turbo in addition to the blower.
He told me the Gen set had 7000 hours, yes 7 thousand.
I love my 4104 and bought a nice one to begin with, however it is very easy to spend 2-4K just having some suspension parts swapped, valves adjusted, servicing all of the fluids and filters and buying a set of tires that are safe.
I was going to buy it for the turbo setup and have a spare bus to pull parts off of but he didn't like my offer but I was willing to close in 7-10 days :)
Bill in KS
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Wow!
Did you ever get a chance to actually check the bus out and hear it run? I suspected that he wouldn't have the paperwork on the rebuild.
If you got a chance to see it, what was your impression of the condition of the bus?
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Hey
I did Not look at it.
After I made my offer I advised him on some options he might take to present the bus a little better and draw in a buyer. From the looks of the add he didn't like my suggestions.
You are just a short drive away, take the wife and at least go get some grease on ya. He is very pushy on the phone and acts like it is a big deal to spend anytime dealing with his bus.
If he was closer I'd go look just for fun and fan a short stack of dead presidents in front of him just to watch him flip and flop around.
There are a ton of buses that show up along the west coast, I wouldn't get in any hurry. Get ya steal of a deal.
Bill in KS
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Welcome! If you are in the market you need to go look at that bus even if there is a good chance you will not buy it. It helps to have some real tire kicking experience, and you learn a lot by doing it. The fact this one has a turbo is intriguing and could be the kick in the pants a 4104 needs. If that bus is mechanically sound the price is in the ballpark. Good luck!
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No documents on anything rebuilt basically means nothing. If it was that important they would at least have some scrap of evidence. New clutch and easy fix are other big tip offs! It's hard to get rid of one of these even in great condition so someone that has been trying to rid himself of one for a while will probably tell you anything they can to get it sold. When they are cheap one can take a chance but even a free one with problems could cost you more than it's worth.
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Here's Tedslist for the coach itself.
Although no item alone would be a deal breaker or maker, it's more something I'd consider overall.
Plus for:
- Good power steering.
- Gear-drive alternator or decent belt-drive retrofit.
- Nice solid radiator core.
- Tight, smooth and easy to move accelerator, clutch, and shifter.
- Tubeless rubber.
- No chips in windshield, not much "fog" at glass edges.
- Back glass decent.
Minus for:
- Generator with sparky commutator and old rotten "rat's nest" wiring at regulator panel.
- Weak or "green" radiator core.
- Badly aged rubber in fan-drive, crank balancer, or engine support.
- Thin clutch disk or lots of residue at housing.
- Wet wheel ends.
- Thin or tapered brake linings.
- Tube-type rubber.
- King pin areas showing rust stains or obvious wear.
- Any sign that the turbo add-on isn't top notch and with tight plumbing that hasn't let the engine breath unfiltered air.
I'm sure others have some items to add.
I can't help much with evaluating the conversion, and that's something I'm interested in myself.
Anybody have a list for that?
Ted
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Thanks for the input all the way around, everyone.
I'm hoping to look at it in the next couple of weeks. I need to raise cash and it won't hurt for him to stew a bit. He's had it this long, so I doubt it's going anywhere soon.
All other things being equal (and they usually aren't), would the inline 671 be a better powerplant than the original V6?
Knowing only only what we do about it, lacking the paperwork on the engine, and all else unseen, what would be a reasonable offer?
Ideally, I'd like to go over there with two cashiers checks - one for $1000 deposit for a test drive, and another for no more than $4000, for a total of no more than $5000 "cash". If the bus has been sitting there this long, then I'd bet that the batteries are not in the best condition and the tires are likely not far behind.
Thoughts?
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6-71 was the original engine in a 4104. By the looks of the dash a major rewire may have been done, if it was done right that is a good thing. There are folks here with the 4104 maintenance manuals on PDF that they can send to you. Study up, and if you think you might buy the bus really go through the electrics....all lights, engine shutdown etc....for such an old machine it is a little complicated (but nothing like a newer bus) more like a car from the 90's level of wiring.
I love the 4104 nice simple well built bus, and decent milage compared to the newer bigger ones. The engine acces is awesome compared to anything else I have seen.
Have fun and go see it, even if you don't buy it, you need to get dirty a few times to start understanding these things. Oh and the are very dirty.....a special kind of 50 year old grime that really gets everywhere when you work on them.
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thanks zub!
you've no doubt heard the acronym 'RTFM' regarding manuals. I live by one a little different: RTMF: "Read the manual first" ;D
I already found the parts manual, operators manual, and the maintenance manual in pdf format, but I really appreciate the offer. I've read the ops manual and have skimmed the maint manual with some choice heavy reading, mostly about the transmission, engine, and clutch maintenance and the suspension.
that's part of how I know what I do about this beast. :)
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Some things ive learned, both here and elsewhere. The 4104 was built just before the interstate system. They were built for rough two lane roads that existed in the late 40's, and are built tougher than anything that was built afterwards. Heavier skin, heavier framing, etc.. The 671 inline is probably the strongest and toughest engine ever put into a Bus. The gearbox is heavy duty. Most everything on the 4104 is simple.
But you are also talking about a Bus that went out of production 51 years ago, and most carriers started putting them out to pasture by the late 60's. There are maybe a handful that stayed in service through the 70's, and virtually none since. So your really looking at an antique.
Thats not a bad thing, but its something you have to carefully consider when your looking at one. The floor is plywood, and is a structural component. You cant simply cut it out and replace it as you can with an MCI. Also, a GMC bus uses stressed skin construction, where the skin is basically a major structural component, "the frame" if you will. So rust and corrosion (iron rusts, aluminum coorodes) can become a real horror if its in an advanced state. Your inspection has to start and end with rust and corrosion inspection, its the backbone of the Bus. Everything else has to be second.
If your barely scraping by financially, you need to be very aware of costs and mechanical things that can go bump in the night. If your out on the road and breakdown, will you be able to fix anything on this Bus yourself, and if not, will you have the jing to have it towed? Can you afford to have a shop work on it? Again, thats not meant to steer you away, if you have to move out onto the road, a Bus is possibly the best choice. But dont fool yourself into thinking it cant cost you big if something goes hiccup.
There are those among us for whom cost is no object. Million dollar Buses and all that. Then there are those that have just had it with S$S garbage and are willing to jump into the nutiness of a Bus, but who have financial constraints to manage. I fall into that bracket. I could not, or would not pay $10K for an inframe overhaul out on the road. For one thing, its a bandaid job IMHO, and a waste of money. So instead, I will plan on doing as much on my own as I can in my own yard, before heading out into the great blue yonder, and pray my knowledge and experience and car, coupled with Gods grace, will be enough to get me back home.
If its a solid Bus and works well, if you take the time to really go through it with a fine tooth comb, if every system is working at 110%, if you cover the known failure modes people have seen on these forums (rear engine support at fan hub comes to mind), heading em off at the pass, with a lil light shinin down from above you should be fine.
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I love the 4104 and this one is definitely worth investigating. I'm a little concerned that it has a turbo if it was not properly done with the correct pistons and other changes needed.
See if there is any way that you can contact the previous owner. They would have no interest at this point except telling you the truth about this bus. I know that if I got a call from someone about the bus I sold a couple of years age, I would be delighted to talk to them.
The price is a bit high but well within negotiation range. Once you decide and set your price, flipping through a stack of twenties will definitely speed up the negotiation process.
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If the PO paid 18,000 for a rebuild he wasn't very smart as you can buy a new DDEC 671 330 hp for for that kind of money I have a buddy that went that route and know of a few more also one paid 8500 for a New DDEC 671 he bought 2 at one time
good luck
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ted, that's an awesome list! I've got it printed out and set with the stuff to check over if we can get over to look at the bus. Thanks for the help!
artvonne, more excellent information! The AL corrosion would show up as pitting, greyish flaking and thinning, correct? I am certainly in that financial boat. Part of the appeal is that the bus is designed with an eye towards serviceability that you just can't find in an S&S. I expect much higher expenses with drivetrain maintenance, but I also expect it to last much longer than the typical RV where even the 400+ cubic inch light-duty engines and transmissions are chronically overloaded.
Ideally, I'd like to leave a deposit and take it for a test drive to a place I can get under it and go over the undercarriage. The floors of the baggage areas are plywood as well, aren't they? What I'm hoping for is a mechanically sound bus that has stuff I can fix in the driveway. I have a hoist that can handle everything but the engine, and I have over-the-road truck mechanical experience that covers everything but the engine itself. As long as I can get the transmission out, I can do any work that needs to be done, same with the diff and most of the other mechanical, air, and electrical systems. I'm hoping that my fabrication experience can see me through most of the rest of it.
Len, I hadn't thought about the piston situation. Is there a way to tell externally or through the inspection covers? If the engine isn't up to turbo spec, would it be (relatively) easy to return it to a non-turbo configuration? If I can get the name of the previous owner... I wonder if I can get the serial number from Michael and get the previous owner's name from the washington DMV. I'll look into that, thanks! By the way, I love your avatar pic.
luvrbus, agreed. Lets see if I can contact the PPO and see what the real story is.
I'll give Michael another call this afternoon.
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I just called Mike, he says the serial number is 2790 or 2970, he can't remember right off.
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Others more knowledgeable than I can comment on the pistons. All I know is what I've read here and that is that you can't just hang a turbo on an NA engine without knowing what you are doing. It's entirely possible that it was all done right, thus my interest in contacting the previous owner.
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Les,
I can't say anything to help with the decision to buy the coach, but if you do purchase it, take notes when you get a tour of all the house systems on the coach. Many conversions are home made (nothing wrong with that) and the builder probably did some customization to suit his/her lifestyle. I hesitate to tell this story... but our coach has the on/off switch for the water pump on a set of light switches. On our first trip, all excited about the first adventure, do you think I could find the water pump switch?
Even if you don't buy the bus, there are a few bus rallies in your area every year. We went to a couple of these before we bought our coach just to talk to people, look at different conversions and attend seminars if they were offered. Some of the rallies charge a small fee which includes your dinner if you come without a bus. If you bring your coach the fees are around the $150 range but well worth it in my opinion. Most don't mind if you just drop in for a few hours and talk to folks. You should check in with the organizers if you go.
Northwestern BusNuts are based in Oregon, but have members from all over the northwestern states. Their next rally is at Seven Feathers in Canyonville Oregon on April 22 - 24th.
Bus N USA is an excellent rally in Rickreall Oregon on June 23 - 26th with lots of great seminars.
The BC BusNuts fall rally is even closer to you at Klinks Resort near Cheney WA on September 9 - 12th.
Bryan
Vancouver BC
GM PD-4108
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Most Honorable Mr Lesberg:
1. Welcome to the board!
2. Thankyou for your service to my country!
3. A few months ago, in southern Mexico (Oaxaca) I met Calvin, from Canada. He has a 4104, with the in-line 6-71. He personally added the turbo to it, and did NOT use the special "required" pistons. He has put over one million miles on it since then, in the last 16 years, travelling all over U.S., Canada, Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, Costa Rica, ... even the republic of Texas. The bus currently has 4,000,000 miles on it! (Try that with a stick-and-staple motorhome!)
For some reason, he has not been answering my emails lately, but his blog is here:
http://lianadevine.wordpress.com/ (http://lianadevine.wordpress.com/)
And pulling his Volkswagen "Thing", which you can see in his pictures, he says he can count on 9 miles per gallon doing 55 miles per hour, which drops to 6 MPG when he does 70.
I wish you success!
Dr. Steve
San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico
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Thank you for the warm welcome! That is an incredible story! I'll check the blog out this evening. I've been checking 4104 prices on the internet as that's my best option at the moment, and I've found a several busses with and without seats that have not yet been converted to an RV, and in most cases the prices are at least a thousand dollars higher than the conversion I'm looking at.
We're going to see if we can sell off a couple of vehicles to raise the cash to get it.
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There is also a bus for sale in Caldwell or Meriddian, something like a 4905 if i remember right, and another one was posted sunday on craigslist in Tacoma for 2500. and there is an almost put together one with a 6 speed tranny I think east of boise. when my brother was driving up from calif this AM, he said there was a fishbowl transit close to medford for 500 this am.. he didnt check to see if it was the usual 6v71 2 speed.
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There was a GM for sale in Eagle but I think it has been parted out,always GM's for sale at Ontario OR
good luck
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Les -
Welcome aboard! FYI:
PD4104-2790 was delivered new in July of 1957 as fleet number E-3141 to Eastern Greyhound Lines, based out of Cleveland, OH.
PD4104-2970, OTOH, was delivered new in December of 1957 as fleet number A-2357 to Atlantic Greyhound Lines, based out of Charleston, WV.
Back in those days, Greyhound's maintenance was considered the best in the industry, so either one was well taken care of for the first ten years of it's life. Hound traditionally sold off their equipment when the vehicle reached 10 years of age after the summer peak season, so these left the fleet either in the fall of 1967 or 1968. After that, who knows?
Getting the VIN right can make a difference - one of these is a "rust belt" car, the other what's known as a "southern" car. Have Michael send you a photo of the VIN stamped inside the exterior compartment underneath the driver for verification. If he says he can't find it - red flag?
FWIW & HTH. . .
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I'm hoping to see it in person. We're hoping to go look at the bus "soon" and we'll know for certain.
The bus is stored off site with a friend of his, who coincidentally raises wolves, so getting in has to be arranged ahead of time. :P
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How 'bout it LesBerg?
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http://spokane.craigslist.org/rvs/2266900756.html (http://spokane.craigslist.org/rvs/2266900756.html)
spokane craigslist > for sale / wanted > recreational vehicles
***RV/Bus Conversion 30 ft *** - $3000 (Rathdrum)
Date: 2011-03-15, 10:44AM PDT
Reply to: sale-pfz3j-2266900756@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Newly installed, but hook up is not complete. 671 Detroit Diesel Engine w/ 6 speed 700 Allsion transmission.
Will consider parting out. All offers considered.
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I saw that one and the price is good, but I've found that I really like the lines of the 4104 and with four of us and a black lab, I think the five extra feet the 4104 has will be a big deal.
It is only about 5 miles away, so if anyone wants me to take a look at it for parts or something, I could probably check it out. Bear in mind that I was an R&R mechanic, so I wouldn't be qualified to judge the condition of the internals of the engine or trans for you. I'd take the risk for myself, but I wouldn't want to pass a bad judgment on to someone else at their expense.
OK. I'll come clean. Something about that ad feels 'off'. Maybe a re-power project that wasn't as well thought out as it should have been, or something similar. I really couldn't say as I'm not familiar with the model. I don't know, but it feels odd and I've learned to trust my instincts with that. I've ignored it a few times and have been burned for my efforts.
Of course, the same could probably be said for the 4104 I'm looking at. <shrug> I'm too new with busses, I suppose. :P
Thanks for looking out for me though, I appreciate it.
Les
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Maybe?
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/rvs/2261941163.html (http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/rvs/2261941163.html)
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that bus looked pretty rough to me. I think the one in tacoma for 2500 that runs is a lot better deal, or the recent 4104 one in medfore, ore for abt the same price would be better, however that one will need a bunch of work also.
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I like the one from vegas a lot - it could easily be a much better deal than the one in Spokane. The one in Medford looks nice, but we need one that is already converted.
There are a few pros/cons between the spokane and vegas busses:
Spokane has a 7.5kw generator - vegas appears to have none
Vegas has a stove - Spokane has none
Vegas seems to have all the original windows - Spokane has had many blanked
both claim rebuild motors, spokane known to not have documentation
Vegas bus appears to have dual pantograph wipers - spokane unknown
Vegas has power steering - spokane unknown
vegas bus has known suspension leak and wiring problems - Spokane is completely unknown
looks like I have some phone calls to make. ;D
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Les -
You've been looking, here are some more off CL for you to consider:
http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/rvs/2289698372.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/rvs/2289698372.html) (This one's near Roseburg, OR)
http://oregoncoast.craigslist.org/rvs/2211138855.html (http://oregoncoast.craigslist.org/rvs/2211138855.html) (This one's on the OR coast w/ of Eugene)
http://eugene.craigslist.org/rvs/2220443650.html (http://eugene.craigslist.org/rvs/2220443650.html) (Also on OR coast, S of the one above)
http://yuma.craigslist.org/rvs/2232791924.html (http://yuma.craigslist.org/rvs/2232791924.html) (This one's in Yuma, AZ, but he's also got a listing saying he'd deliver to western WA. Interesting thing here is that it's been repowered with a Cummins/Voith powertrain out of a transit.)
See what you've started???
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Maybe?
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/rvs/2261941163.html (http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/rvs/2261941163.html)
Wow! a few phone calls later, and I _really_ wish we had the cash to move on this one. No documentation of the rebuild, but the P.O. to the current seller is who had the conversion and rebuild done. PO was either owner of the converting/rebuilding trucking company or the owners son, so it's not hard to imagine that it was done and done well.
Either way, rebuilt or not, all it needs to be ready to go is a full set of batteries and a pair of tires. Considering that I'm expecting to replace all the tires and batteries in this price bracket, that would put me four tires ahead of the ball game.
Or it would if I had the money.
Where did I put that winning powerball ticket? :P
<starts humming George Thorogood's tune "Get a haircut (and get a real job)">
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Les, if ya end up in the LV area, lemme know if ya need a hand.702-664-4265 ;)
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van,
thanks for the generous offer. If we get to that point, we'll certainly let you know. I'd certainly appreciate a set of experienced eyes to look a bus over. Of course, it'd be good to meet a fellow busnut!
Thanks
Les
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The 4104 in Yuma looks pretty good. I may check that one out.
It has a Voith auto tranny with a three stage tranny brake, is that a good thing? It has a Cummins Diesel LTA 10, that's an add on, is that a good thing as well?
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sooo, we have income again and we're going to find a way to make this work.
In our price range (sub $8000) we're expecting to have to replace the tires and batteries, as well as other significant work. We think the bus in Las Vegas is a better starting place than the one in Spokane. It has all the factory windows and the CO just finished fixing the power steering (increased the price to $5000). It doesn't have a generator, but the places we'd be parked initially would all have shore power. It doesn't have bunks for the kids, but the floor plan wouldn't take much work to set it up the way we want it and we have bunks we can install. Yeah, we'd replace the carpet, probably with tile.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/slateslavens/GMC%20pd4104/3m13pc3oe5V05U05S5b3f7a1697e254c01d3a.jpg) (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/slateslavens/GMC%20pd4104/3n03mc3p75T45Z15X5b3edf03e3c9ed45101e.jpg) (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/slateslavens/GMC%20pd4104/3m73p23l85Z05U05R1b3c30241c84fc1f1218.jpg) (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/slateslavens/GMC%20pd4104/3n93m83l25Z65P25S3b3cdd504e89be5a1405.jpg)
We would have to replace all the batteries and two tires on the LV bus to drive it, but we think it's the better deal, even with an 1150 mile 'delivery' drive. If the bus is otherwise roadworthy, the idea would be to drive it around LV for a few days to get used to it and see if any other issues pop up before we hit the road for parts north.
No. I've never driven a bus before, but I drove M113 and deuce-and-a-half for three years in the army, so I'm familiar with a similar engine family and diesel trucks with cantankerous manual transmissions. ;D
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/slateslavens/m113_0005jpg9b5cc462-66ed-4f23-9046-4f24b71d6ff4Larger.jpg) (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/slateslavens/Deuce-and-a-Half.jpg)
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watch out for floor rot it is a PITA. The floor is plywood and when folks put carpet and underlayment down it can rot out fast....after having been fine for years....carpet is a sponge and keeps things wet. BTW on the '04 the wood floor is part of the structure (monocoque) so it is fairly important.
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Just my opinion, but there's something in the description, story, and pictures, -I can't exactly put my finger on it- that to me, makes the Vegas coach seem tired, despite the recent rebuild claim. Maybe because of all the claims that every problem will be minor and easy and cheap for a buyer to fix?
So patching that simple minor PS hose leak jacked the price 500 bucks? ???
Ted
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If your barely scraping by financially, you need to be very aware of costs and mechanical things that can go bump in the night. If your out on the road and breakdown, will you be able to fix anything on this Bus yourself, and if not, will you have the jing to have it towed? Can you afford to have a shop work on it? Again, thats not meant to steer you away, if you have to move out onto the road, a Bus is possibly the best choice. But dont fool yourself into thinking it cant cost you big if something goes hiccup.
There are those among us for whom cost is no object. Million dollar Buses and all that. Then there are those that have just had it with S$S garbage and are willing to jump into the nutiness of a Bus, but who have financial constraints to manage. I fall into that bracket. I could not, or would not pay $10K for an inframe overhaul out on the road. For one thing, its a bandaid job IMHO, and a waste of money. So instead, I will plan on doing as much on my own as I can in my own yard, before heading out into the great blue yonder, and pray my knowledge and experience and car, coupled with Gods grace, will be enough to get me back home.
I will second what Paul said. We just bought an Eagle in Texas that was supposed to be A-okay. It checked out great and ran perfectly for the first half of the trip... But before we got it home we wound up spending over $4,000 on it!!! :o Had to leave it at a shop and go back for it. 47 days later, we finally pulled her into the driveway! It can happen. Just have a plan. I'm thankful we had the backup funds to handle the situation! I highly recommend an emergency repair fund. DEFINITELY get Coach-Net towing coverage before you drive it home. And for goodness sake, read the terms of use! (I didn't and they wouldn't cover the $1,000 tow.)
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Ted,
I agree in principle, but I've talked to the owner on the phone and while he seems to know the details of busing I was left with the impression that his experience wasn't necessarily with this bus. It's also in the most reasonable condition for the price as compared to all the other 4104s I've seen. There was even one that looked like it had been completely submerged that the owner listed as having 'water damage' for $10,000. Most of the ones in this price range don't even run. They've needed heads or new differentials or are just parts buses.
He knows the mechanical problems well, but what he told me of the interior was mostly what the PO had told him. The bus has been sitting for some time - long enough that he mentioned that gasoline would be bad by now, but since it was diesel it should just need the water drained from the tanks, etc. He mentions that he can start the bus, but never mentions driving it, etc. It feels to me that he bought the bus in it's current condition some time ago and has never gotten around to fixing the 'small' problems. and actually using it. The situation seems almost like someone buying a Jack Russel terrier because it's cute not realizing how much work they are to raise, and now he wants to be rid of it.
That said, I texted him yesterday to see if he still had it and he replied that he did and that he fixed the power steering problem over the weekend and has brought the price up to $5000.
Zub,
Thanks for the heads-up on the floor. I figured it would be a pain to replace, though less expensive overall that some other repairs. Is this a reasonable assumption?
jump - I'll have to come back later to reply, my wife wants the internet for work :P
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Congratulations on your purchase. I love the 4104 and wish I still had mine.
Think twice, or even three times about using tile on the floor. With the 6-71 in a 4104, weight is a major consideration. Think about every pound you add to this coach. A wood floor would be much nicer in my opinion.
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There was even one that looked like it had been completely submerged that the owner listed as having 'water damage' for $10,000. Most of the ones in this price range don't even run. They've needed heads or new differentials or are just parts buses.
Are you talking about the 04 in AZ that needed something with the head? I spoke to that clown last august asking for pics, I asked him three times over a span of about a month with promises he would get some, never heard back. Sounded good like something worth fixing, but whatever. Then there was the guy down in Alabam with the "mauve" 04 with caps, said he was goin out of town for a few days, never heard back from him either. Its gotta be hard trying to sell something like that when its really not worth much, but still.
One thing I came to realise on this forum, was that at the end of the day, a Bus is a Bus. They all pretty much share the same parts, air brake stuff, wheel stuff, gearboxes, engines. Its the shell that really makes them different. I started out really wanting a GMC 4107, but learned from these guys here that they are very high geared and simply wouldnt have a prayer of getting up my driveway.
Then I met Rick and he took me for a ride in his 04, and I found it to be a very cool Bus and I really wanted to find one. But as the search continued, I kept running into these sellers that are just plain difficult. I mean, if they cant send pics or talk to you when your over 500 miles away, what point is there in going to look at it? So I started broadening my range. I started looking at other Buses in my price range, and the more I learned, the more I started looking at MCI's. But I have to say, in the 35 footers there aint a lot out there, and leven ess that are worth driving very far to look at.
I guess what im saying is that while an 04 can be a fine Bus if you find a good one, dont be afraid to look at other options and broaden your Horizons. Buses may well be like dogs, they pick you, not you them. The 06 is a good Bus and still only 35 feet and two axles, as is an MCI5 like ive found. If you dont have an overly steep driveway as I do, the 4107/08 is a really neat Bus, also 35 feet and two axles, but with those giant cargo bays that are to die for. The 07/08 are basically an 06 with a raised floor, giving tall cargo bays. If your thinking of living in a Bus full time, more room isnt a bad thing. If you never saw someone open a bay door on an 07/08/05, your in for a surprise. Just whatever you do, dont buy too much project. The newest 04 is 51 years old. Your already going to be throwing good money after bad, but if the Bus isnt sound to start with, it can really become a black hole. In houses its location location location. Anything electrical or mechanical on a Bus can be replaced, rebuilt or gerry rigged. But you need a good foundation. So in a Bus, its chassis chassis chassis, and on a Bus, chassis means the entire structure. Rust and structural damage are the killers.
Whats the deal with that turbocharged 04 up there, did you see it?
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Len,
we haven't bought it yet, but we're hoping to! We're hoping to get down to Los Vegas to see it in the next week or so. I'm not one to post financial info on the internet, but we could have the full asking price in under 30 days. We're planning on asking if he'll take a few, large weekly payments, assuming that it passes an in-person inspection. IF he is, we'd be willing to pay the full asking price. We've talked it over at length, and we have a good support net at this point for repairs and parking, and we're happy with the overall condition of the coach assuming that the bathroom and appliances all work (or would with minimal work). So far, the owner has been very forthcoming in the condition of the vehicle and we want to deal with him on as openly as he seems to have been with us.
He's been open on the condition of the coach regarding all the questions I've thought to ask, and I've been open with him about the reasoning for my questions. I asked him what condition the tires were in and explained that I wasn't expecting a perfect set of tires on a (then) $4500 coach, but wanted to know how many tires I could expect to replace to make an 1200 mile trip to get it home. He was very forthcoming and said that there were two good tires on the back and two that should be replaced before leaving Las Vegas, and that the steering tires were good. When pressed, he said that if he was to take delivery of it right now, he'd replace two tires on the rear, rotate the steer tires to the back, and put the two new tires on the front, and that at that point it would be good for a season or two. His honesty scores points in my book.
[edit]
we'll keep an eye on the weight per sqft of what we do. With it having an over-the-road powertrain I didn't think it would be an issue. Thanks for the heads-up!
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Thejumpsuitman,
If we were still renting a home, there'd be no way we could do this. Let me lay the entire situation out. I think it's pretty plain that we're not rolling in cash. Far from it in fact. Personally, I've been homeless before in better economic times. Now that I have a business degree, the only thing that's changed employment-wise is that now I owe money on student loans. Here's the entire situation:
I graduated from Boise State University in December 2009 with a bachelors degree in business administration, FWIW, and my wife has been in school as long as I have been (since 2004). She worked for Albertson's/Supervalu until November last year, when she was laid off. We've been considering an RV for several years now and have blown our opportunity three times because we've not been as fiscally responsible as we should have been.
Personally, I think that missing the boat three times on the RV has been a good thing. I read your entire 34 page saga on the repair ordeal you went through, and I don't envy you any of it. That said, I think you lucked out in one aspect: the cost of just the repairs, I think you made out much better with your bus than you would have with the same problem with any S&S RV. If we had spent money even as late as last November, we would have bought an S&S RV. I've done a lot of research since then and now I think that would have been a huge mistake given the knowledge and experience I already have maintaining and repairing over-the-road trucks.
At the moment we're staying with my parents. While not ideal for them or us, it is benefiting both parties: we have a place to stay that doesn't cost $1200 a month between rent and utilities, and I'm helping with vehicle repairs and helping them turn half of the unfinished basement into a library. So while we're not making any more money than we were before, we're in a unique position to save like mad. Having looked over the offerings at the lower end of the price range for an 'uncomplicated' coach, I think that the Las Vegas and Spokane buses each represent excellent opportunities for us. They represent sub $7000 coaches that are in need of repairs that I am already capable of performing or learning quickly. Both are road-ready save batteries and tires and both have some interior work to be done.
We want an RV/motorcoach for several reasons:
First, we want to be mobile. We are looking at employment in several areas; northern or southern Idaho areas, Madison Wisconsin, and Minneapolis primarily. Also, we're both keeping our employment options open, so we're both considering contracting. At the moment, my wife is contracting from 'home' at $40/hour. If we're mobile, I can contract 'on-site' and we can do it without having to pack out a house and all the associated nonsense and make the best of both worlds. e.g; no 'first month/last month/security deposit' and no breaking a lease to move on to a better opportunity.
Second, our families are scattered. My parents live in northern Idaho and my brothers and sisters are spread to both coasts. Her dad lives north of Mt. Vernon, Washington at the moment, but is looking to retire back to Montana. Again, mobility would be nice.
Third, we're looking to start our own business. We want to start our own meadery. If you're not familiar with mead and have no objections to alcoholic beverages, give it a try. We're hoping that with an RV/coach, we can spend less money on moving and rentals and save more for starting our business,
Please understand that we're not making this decision lightly. We both understand that we could easily run into repairs that could run $10k or better. Our plan is to pay 'rent' every month into a specific bank account. Our last rental cost us $830 per month in rent and another $400 in utilities (electric, gas, water, etc) every month. So we would pay $1000 to $1200 or so as 'rent' each month into this account. This account would cover our fuel and maintenance bills. Everything left over at the end of the month would be rolled into a 'repairs' savings account.
The idea is to save money from three to seven years and have enough to start our business without needing to take out loans or mortgage property. There's a lot to it that I'm not covering, but this covers the basics.
I cannot begin to say how much it means to me that everyone is so willing to share their knowledge and experience. It's beyond invaluable. The adventures you've all posted (and the mis-adventures as well) are helping me figure out a list of mishaps and plan out what I can do to be prepared as best I can. While I certainly can't begin to pack along the tools/parts/etc for a piston failure, I can plan for a pair of flat tires and minimize my downtime and expenses. I'm hoping to be able to refine these plans into an everyday operational readiness. For those of you that are prior service, I'm also planning on developing a PMCS (preventative maintenance checks and services) checklist for daily, weekly, and periodic maintenance schedules. I'm kinda anal like that.
Anyway, I'll keep you posted on how the whole thing goes.
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Les -
What's the VIN on the Vegas coach?
Did you ever get the VIN on the WA coach?
I hear your plan - sounds like you've done a lot of thinking, which is a good thing - especially the contingency factors.
RE: Tires. Buy two new and put on the front. Move steers to rear axle. Take best (newest) of removed rears and use as a spare (which hides behind the front bumper, btw. . .)
There's a nice pre-trip inspection checklist you can use here:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614)
And, since the manual gearbox will be a new beast to conquer, this might help:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16204.html?1167073154 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16204.html?1167073154)
That site, btw, has a HUGE archive that goes back a lot further than this one, and it's searchable. Surf around.
Is wife willing to learn to drive the coach too? If yes, that's good. If no, time for discussion - the best bus driver's I trained were women.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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While I certainly can't begin to pack along the tools/parts/etc for a piston failure,
I disagree. I plan to carry most every tool I might need, within reason, and probably spare parts that are common to fail. In the situation Marc started with, simply blocking the injector would likely been sufficient to get her home. But there are ways to deal with more significant problems to achieve a simular result, including piston failure. Short of throwing a rod through the side or breaking the crank, I think you could bandaid one of these brutes to run for a long ways if you needed to. I may not ever go to Alaska, in fact I probably wont ever, but I can think and plan for it regardless. Like what I will do if im 400 miles from nothing.
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Is wife willing to learn to drive the coach too? If yes, that's good. If no, time for discussion - the best bus driver's I trained were women.
A bit OT. My Uncle used to let my Aunt drive their S$S class A. One day Uncle had a blow out on the front. He said he had all he could do to hold it straight and was glad the road was straight. Not only was my Aunt terrified, they both realised she could not have handled it. The steering wheel was whipping back and forth in a blur.
Whats a front tire blow out on a Bus like? I would need to know that before I would ever try talking her into it.
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Paul -
Whats a front tire blow out on a Bus like? I would need to know that before I would ever try talking her into it.
Around town, no big deal.
Michelin produced a great video about dealing with a front blow-out on an RV at speed. Here's the link:
How to Handle a Tire Blowout in Your RV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkwOE1yKY5c#)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Interesting. The one he had at the time wasnt exactly the heaviest duty rig you could buy, P30 Chevy chassis. Hard to keep it on the road when everything working right.
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RJ,
Yeah, the vin on the Wa bus was either 2790 or 2970, the owner couldn't remember and the RV is stored off site. We're going to arrange to look at it just before we go to look at the Vegas bus. The guy in Vegas sent me the VIN already, but I accidentally deleted it from my phone last night. I'll try to get it again.
I've read that shifting guide once, but I lost the link. I'm going to print it out, laminate it, and stick it in the bus when we get it. It'll be required reading for anyone driving the bus. I'll also print the pre-trip inspection, thanks for the link!
Artvonne,
My wife wants to and she's a pretty tough Montana woman. She may not drive it often, but she'll be able to drive it if she needs/wants to. She says to tell you guys that "of course I want to learn to drive it. How else am I supposed to be able to properly throw him under the bus?" ;)
I have the operators manual, parts book, and maintenance manual as PDF files on a laptop. It's also time to track down a manual for maintaining and repairing the 6-71. I likely have most of the tools I'll need for many of the repairs, but I'll need to know how to do them. I don't know if any of you are like this, but when I get a maintenance manual for something like this, I read it cover-to-cover a few times. I can't help it. :-\ I've already read the operator's manual once and skimmed the maintenance manual...
I'll check out the video in a few. Thanks for the link!
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Wow! That is one awesome video on tire deflation! I believe we would all do well to watch it several times.
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The Las Vegas bus is number 2587
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I know you want a bus bad really you just need to sit back and think about for a while if you plan on travels there is no way you can keep a bus up on a 1000 bucks a month.
A engine if you do it right parts and machine work on a 6-71 will cost you 7 grand no labor
Buses ,boats and aircraft are about the same hell I am finding that out trying to build my helicopter that thing is bleeding me and I haven't seen it in 2 months.
The previous owner of Marc's bus he and I had a conversation about it one day you start a bus bam there it goes he thought about it and sold Marc the bus because if it happen to him he could not afford to fix it a good deal for Marc for a day or so lol.
I am sure you have read what happen to Marc that happens to all bus owners from time to time.
Don't let these guys beat you up to bad on the S&S jobs there are some good ones out there and they don't have 2 millions either and remember this is a Bus Board not a rv board lol BTW my wife is a graduate of Boise State
good luck
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That's for sure Clifford ;) Got mine home and... BAM! By By Engine! Lol fortunately for me, I can fix any thing from an 1800's grand father clock to an M-1A2 MB Tank, and anything in between ;D ;) No regrets what so ever, Tally Ho!
Edit :-[ Forgot to add, When I have the Dough ;D
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That's for sure Clifford ;) {snip} Lol fortunately for me, I can fix any thing... [snip]
Van: We could REALLY use you in the Whitehouse right about now!
;D
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Don't let these guys beat you up to bad on the S&S jobs there are some good ones out there
good luck
I see, you say this AFTER I buy a Bus. lol
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Les -
PD4104-2587 was delivered new as fleet number N-5707 in June of 1957 to Northland Greyhound Lines, based out of Minneapolis, MN. So this is a "rust belt" car - look it over carefully for corrosion.
Back then, Greyhound had a preventative maintenance program that was the envy of the transportation industry, so for the first 10-11 years of it's life, it was well taken care of.
Most likely, it left the fleet in the fall of 1967, after the summer season. Where it went from Hound is anyone's guess.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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Thanks RJ, good to know.
luvr,
there won't be a lot of traveling initially. My wife is interviewing for a job in Minneapolis, so the first run would be to Boise to get a few things from storage that would cost more to replace than making a 500 mile detour. The second leg would be Boise to Minneapolis, and that would be it for a while.
I know it won't be cheap, but we won't have any other bills to worry about. The $1000 a month is a WAG, though I really don't see that an RV would be cheaper than a good coach. For what we're finding locally, it would take a minimum of $20,000 to get into a diesel pusher in poor condition and that same money would get you into a nice 4104 or 4106.
Either way, for the market here the two buses are the best buy for the money to get into a diesel powered coach.
That said, we've spoken to the Vegas bus owner again, and now we're not so hot on that coach. A picture of the back of the coach tells a different story than the front pic. There are no beds at all in the coach - it appears to be a poor attempt at a party bus. The kitchen and front furniture look like they were removed from an older RV and installed in the coach. The area in the back is a wrap-around booth about the size of a queen bed which shows considerable damage, including what appears to be the interior wall coming lose above the rear-most driver's side window. The kitchen area is decent, but given the remodeling that we'd need to do to make it usable, we'd need to move the kitchen forward about four feet.
After comparing the two coaches in my head, I started a spreadsheet to make the comparisons and start estimating costs.
Chassis-wise, the two coaches are fairly comparable, but the while the Spokane coach lacks a stove and a propane system, the Las Vegas bus only has a kitchen, an at the moment the fridge does not work. Adding a diesel genset to the Vegas bus to put it on par with the Spokane coach would run over $7000. Even though the Spokane coach's genset has over 7000 hours, I suspect that repairs would be less expensive than complete replacement. Even if they aren't, we shouldn't need to replace the genset immediately.
Basically, the spreadsheet says that if we consider the cost of flying down to look at the vegas bus and getting up here as part of the purchase price (and we should), the two buses are going to cost about the same. Considering the two interiors and the cost to make the necessary changes, the Spokane bus comes out on top. That said, there is a decent $6500 4104 over in the Carolinas... :P
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You just want to make sure what you are getting into with a old bus with the paint job an other things mechanical I spent over 40 grand on my Eagle in one year and that was after the conversion .
Fwiw why don't you check around Ontario Or there is always 4104's and 4106's for sale in that area around Fruitland, Payett,Nampa,Caldwell and the Wesier area some one in Eagle just scraped a converted GM
good luck
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luvrbus, are they normally found listed on the internet? craigslist, etc?
Thanks,
Les
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they arent normally on CL.... that i can tell anyway, i just drive by some of them as i dont live too far away
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Have you tried searching here?..
http://rv.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=rvs&fil=bus+conversion&itm=&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=&ye=&so=d&submit=+GO+ (http://rv.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=rvs&fil=bus+conversion&itm=&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=&ye=&so=d&submit=+GO+)
You can narrow your searches by states, price, models, etc.. I usually don't pay much attention to the ebay prices since most never meet an unrealistic reserved bid, but if you saw something there you really liked then maybe you could contact seller and discuss a realistic price.
Jimmy
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If I could give a little bit of advice take your time I have been looking for over 5 years watching E-bay and bus forums and finally found the perfect bus for my needs.
Kerry
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Maybe try this one also Les, for the brand you want. good luck.
http://rv.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=rvs&fil=bus+conversion&itm=eagle&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=&ye=&so=d&submit=+GO+ (http://rv.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=rvs&fil=bus+conversion&itm=eagle&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=&ye=&so=d&submit=+GO+)
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Thanks for the link... I see that ELVIS hasn't gone to his happy home yet... ;D
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I found tons of Buses listed on Craigslist. In Google, go to advanced search.
In the top category header, type the Bus your looking for, 4104 GMC, 4104 Bus, 4104 Conversion, etc..
In the bottom header, Search within a site or domain:
Here you would type craigslist.org
This will bring you any craigslist ad within that search heading from the entire US and Canada. Change your selection if your not seeing what you want, and clear your history/cookies dailey etc., so as to clear off ones youve read already. I would agree with others in saying most everything on eBay is unrealistically priced. But you need to watch it because sometimes things pop up that are super deals with BIN options.