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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: harleyman_1000 on February 20, 2013, 10:33:15 AM

Title: Webasto heaters
Post by: harleyman_1000 on February 20, 2013, 10:33:15 AM
 Does anyone have and run their Webasto heaters? I hear they are the best, but not sure why? The bus that Im thinking about has radiators that look like electric wall heaters. How much fuel does this system use per hour? Any other info on this system would be helpful
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Zeroclearance on February 20, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
Alot of us have them.   There are different models from 40K BTU to 105K BTU's..

Where is the bus going to be?  Midwest or Florida..

How well is the bus insulated??   You can eat 2 gals an hour...   

Pick your heat source and Btu needed.    Propane, diesel or heat pumps/ strip heat from genset.
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: harleyman_1000 on February 20, 2013, 12:41:09 PM
 Up to 2 gallons a hour? Wow that is a lot! Why is the hot water heat system considered to be better? How much does a propane gas system use?
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 20, 2013, 12:56:08 PM
I have the Aqua Hot system, it uses the Webasto burner, it burns up o 1/3 GPH diesel fuel, is a wonderful system, does require annual servicing. Not the cheapest, but I feel the best for me.
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: buswarrior on February 20, 2013, 02:10:28 PM
a slight misreport for fuel burn.

My DBW300 at 100k BTU or so is said to burn a gallon per hour flat out. You run what comes from the previous owner.

Check the various manuals for the fuel consumption in the technical specifics section.

http://www.techwebasto.com/heater_main.htm (http://www.techwebasto.com/heater_main.htm)

For supporting a busnut house system, I would suggest that my big unit is too large for efficient operation.

I'd be more inclined to have one down nearer 40k BTU and rig the system and controls in a manner that ensured long burns, and avoided short cycling.

However, with a big one, heat is almost instant firing it up in arctic conditions, and as a block heater, 20 minutes tops to a Spring-like start...

however you want to float your boat.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: rv_safetyman on February 20, 2013, 06:15:28 PM
Every time the Webasto and AquaHot subjects come up, fuel use generally comes up.  Some very high numbers are quoted.

I just changed my nozzle, and noted that it was rated at .35 GPH.  The nozzle is part number:  WPX-886-41A.   Here is a link to a page that lists the nozzle:  http://www.pdxrv.com/catalog/i1647.html (http://www.pdxrv.com/catalog/i1647.html) (if you check around, you will find them cheaper, but this site had the nozzle details).

So, the maximum fuel that an AquaHot should use is .35 gallons per hour ***if*** it is running full time.

BTW, changing the nozzle and doing a quick service of a good operating system (no troubleshooting) is not a bad job.  Here is a good how-to site:  http://www.rvcruzer.com/aquahot.php (http://www.rvcruzer.com/aquahot.php)

Jim
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: luvrbus on February 21, 2013, 06:16:24 AM
Jim it is in black and white on the AquaHot site 5 + gals a day for normal use they suck some fuel mine did lol,there is no point of having one if you are not comfortable  they

I kept my on 72 degrees,then you have the generator time to recharge the batteries  

While you can work on yours some people cannot so they line up at FMCA rallies for service work on those  

The 2 guys I know make a good living at FMCA rallies doing service work only
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: harleyman_1000 on February 21, 2013, 06:54:29 AM
Does anyone know how much propane a average furnace uses a day?
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: rusty on February 21, 2013, 08:02:15 AM
I have no idea how much fuel my diesel heater uses. I have a 40 gallon tank that I use for the heater and the generator. The last three week trip to Florida the 40 gallon tank was full when we left. The generator ran maybe 4 hours. We spent time on the pole but were in cold enough place that the diesel side of the heater came on at night. The last day of the trip the fuel gauge was not down to 3/4. I always dump the generator tank down to less than a 1/4 of a tank and burn it thru the main tank. So I don't know how much I used. We have had the bus for over 10 years and I have never came in with less than a 1/2 of a tank on the heat side.
I like it well enough that I will but the same system in the 15 that I am building.

Wayne
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: TomC on February 21, 2013, 08:09:40 AM
Harleyman-I have a 35,000btu/hr propane furnace. When I'm in freezing weather (17 degrees is the coldest I've been in) the furnace will run up to 50% of the time. Propane has 84,950btu/gallon. Hence, if I'm using round figures 18,000btu's per hour, I'm getting 4.71 hours per gallon of propane.

Diesel fuel has 128,450btu/hr. Comparing equally with a Webasto and it also had a 35,000btu burner running 50% of the time, you would get 7.13 hours per gallon of Diesel.

Some btu figures- Diesel-128,450; B100 BioDiesel-119,550; Gasoline-116,000; Propane-84,950; Ethanol-76,330; Liquified Natural Gas-74,720; Methanol-57,250; Hydrogen-51,585. Electricity-3414 per kilowatt hour.

Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: luvrbus on February 21, 2013, 08:25:44 AM
Makes no difference Propane or diesel if you stay warm it will cost me I don't like the noise and smell of diesel fired heat AquaHot and Hurricane both make propane versions of their systems JMO 

 I prefer the propane systems like Primus or Alde for the cost of operation and the quietness with no 500 degree exhaust temp on the outside but we all have our own ideas and do it different 
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: opus on February 21, 2013, 09:46:35 AM
If you are a maintenance geek, a Webasto is for you.  If you suck at maintenance, stay away from an oil furnace.

My nozzle is .35gph. You arent going to get anymore out of it than that.
Very rarely does one run straight, unless its exceptionally cold.
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Boomer on February 21, 2013, 10:17:37 AM
I can't see two different types of fuel on board I like diesel for engine, gen and heat.  Love my Webasto on both buses, if the system is designed right the fuel usage is very thrifty.  How tight and well insulated your coach is and how much hot water you use enters into it too.  As for maintenance all I have done on my Eagle in 6 years is two fuel filters even though the book says to do more.  I understand there are a few problems with Aquahots, don't know anything about them.  I wouldn't give up my Webastos for anything.
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Gary W on February 21, 2013, 11:16:51 AM
I have a Aqua Hot for seven years changed the nozzle twice and filter twice. On our trip to Yuma had a problem with the Webasto, It wouldn't fire so we ran it on electric on the way down. Not as hot as with diesel .

When I got to Yuma had  a repairman take a look at it , he said the motor is shot and a new one is $500. I said thanks I will take it apart, the motor was fine but the  bearings needed to be replaced.  Aqua hot wanted $120 for the bearing kit, went to local bearing supply store and got the 2 bearings for $6.00. Replaced them and still didn't fire.  Took it to another repairman that knew what he was doing, he took it apart and said I had a washer or two in the wrong place. He showed me a lot of things about my unit and did a complete test on it. It now is working again.

As for fuel usage It doesn't run all the time and uses about 1/3 gal. per hour. I really like the unit.

Gary 
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: rusty on February 21, 2013, 11:57:23 AM
I know better than to say this as the troubles are sure to start. I have changed the nozzle and inner fuel filter 3 or 4 times. and the fuel pump was changed due to a leak in all the years I have had the Aqua hot.

Wayne
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: lostagain on February 21, 2013, 01:04:49 PM
A Webasto system is like any other system: you have to maintain it once in a while to keep it working properly.

It is great as an engine pre-heater as well.

Best invention since buses were discovered.

JC
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: TomC on February 21, 2013, 01:11:58 PM
Let's not forget the initial cost of the Aqua Hot system. Can eassily get up towards $10,000. Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: harleyman_1000 on February 21, 2013, 02:59:10 PM
 One of the buses that Im thinking about has the  Webastos system on it. Just wondering if it is a reason to choose another bus?
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: opus on February 21, 2013, 03:03:45 PM
Heck no! Thats one of the best reasons to buy the bus.
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: sledhead on February 21, 2013, 04:24:08 PM
When I was looking for a bus I looked for a proheat unit( same but different  ) I live in the north and use the proheat to preheat the eng. And if I want to use it for floor heat or forced air rad heat I put in two shut offs in the heater hose to not let heat go to the eng. At 180 f the proheat cycles on and off as needed ,is fast to heat up the inside.As for maintance I have not done anything yet , I have used it every year since 2006 .Yes I guess I should look  at some maintance some day but until then it's great. As it came with the bus it was free.                            dave
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 21, 2013, 04:44:40 PM
Using the A H unit is a spoiler for me, no hot nor cold areas, entire coach is like my home with boiler hot wate radiator heat just comfy and enjoyable.
One can play the numbers in any method that fits their wants or beliefs .
Like said, not cheap but very comfy so do you want to be comfy or going tp squeeze the Buffalo?
The engine keeps the system hot and can preheat the engine before cold start, your choice.
Me, I've suffered long enough, now I smile and enjoy.
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 21, 2013, 04:48:33 PM
Should add about having 4 adjustable thermostats to set to your liking, front, bath, bedroom & basement/water tanks etc.
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: sledhead on February 21, 2013, 04:52:29 PM
What Dave said can't beat a nice warm floor and no noise or fan ?               dave
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 21, 2013, 05:22:28 PM
Dave, For sure, but the funny, my home oil fired boiler makes more noise than the Aqua Hot.  As for the cold floor, yes, that is one mistake I made when installed ceramic flooring except for bedroom, if I live long enough, I will have it redone with the electric heated floor, and as for fans, yes have some fans but not nearly as loud as the ducted heat pumps on roof, which are not bad, but yes you can hear them. Besides I am not willing to afford the million bux types. We all have limits ?   ;D
I am a happy puppy
Thanks
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: harleyman_1000 on February 21, 2013, 05:29:09 PM
 Wow I love you guys, uh ummmm I mean like  ;D  I really am getting so much information from you all, and thank you all!
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 22, 2013, 05:47:34 AM
In my gang/group no one would go back to the LPGas furnaces, too hard to get refueled and too noisey.
I used the Surban LP Gas furnace in the MCI I had, it worked OK, but a large improvement with the diesel fired boiler quiet, just light fan when it runs, bugt the biggie is the entire coach is the same temp, that alone is a blessing.
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on February 23, 2013, 04:19:52 AM
Hi Guy's

I keep my bus at 65 degrees in the winter and my 45,000 btu Proheat always burns

15 gallons a week. I usually top the tank off every 2 weeks with a 30 gallon barrel of

fuel and the guage is always on full when I'm done. Primative but works,,, lol

(Hydronic water coil to air system)

Good Luck
Nick-
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: TedCalvert on February 23, 2013, 05:17:36 AM
Nick

Care to share any details of your system?  I'm about to install the same unit (thanks, Scanzel) and I know nothing about hydronic heat.

Tnx.

Ted
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: morefire on February 23, 2013, 07:44:58 AM
AquaHot system installed in my coach (which is basically a Webasto).....  Best Heating & hot water system available IMO  
I wouldn't build a full size coach without this, personally.  Absolutley love it.  I've never noticed it's fuel usage.
I camp for 3-4 days at a time and my fuel guage doesn't even move, or isn't noticable enough.  


(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/r-acer/Bluebird%20Coach/259_5908-1.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/r-acer/Bluebird%20Coach/258_5869.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/r-acer/Bluebird%20Coach/258_5822.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/r-acer/Bluebird%20Coach/259_5909.jpg)
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: luvrbus on February 23, 2013, 07:59:57 AM
How do you guys never burn fuel in the Aqua/Hot lol the people that make the unit tell you to expect 5 to 6 gals a day under normal use.

 Nick said running his at 65 degrees 15 gals a week at over 4 bucks a gal it is costing him 60+ bucks a week and he probably has his bus in covered parking

You guys own a different Aqua/Hot than I owned for sure lol but what price do you put on comfort
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: morefire on February 23, 2013, 08:08:06 AM
All I said is that it isn't noticeable to me.... but then again, I am not the type of person who will pull out a calculator and worry about how many pennies more or less it cost to run this system vs another system etc....
I just buy and use what I prefer  ;)
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: luvrbus on February 23, 2013, 08:38:11 AM
We all do it that way some like MCI,Prevost,Eagle,Setra and even some like you and I like the BlueBird my point is Cole and I installed flowmeters on his AquaHot he removed so I know they burn fuel comfort is not cheap
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: belfert on February 23, 2013, 01:54:04 PM
Where does one buy the Alde Propane boiler here in the USA?  It appears Alde just introduced a North American version of their 3010 boiler about a year ago.

Is a propane boiler more efficient than a diesel boiler because by my calculations propane costs about 10% more per BTU than diesel?  (Per BTU prices based on current prices for diesel and propane at Flying J Cheyenne, WY.)  I have no doubt a propane boiler is a lot quieter.  My Proheat sounds like a jet engine idling for takeoff.
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 23, 2013, 03:36:49 PM
Not being a bright bulb, my A H burns .35 GPH WHEN it runs.  It runs less than 1/3 or maybe 20 minutes per hour, I figure tha is less than 3 gal per day.  3 gal a day out of  200 gal tank is not real noticeable . ?
Dave M
Title: TomC...Thank You For The BTU numbers
Post by: HB of CJ on February 23, 2013, 03:48:04 PM
I was curious as I had forgotten, but you beat me to it.  Handy to have.  Thanks you.   HB of CJ (old coot) :)
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on February 23, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
3 gallons a day x 30 days is 90 gallons x $4 is $360 a month.  We are renting a lot in Yuma for $250. Our last electric bill was $70. We have 2 Olympian catalytic heaters which we hardly use, and a small cube heater in the living room and a small toe kick heater on a thermostat in the bedroom. Bus was converted in 83 and not intended for use in cold climates so insulation is not that great. We get along just fine on what we have and have the freedom to head for warmer weather when it starts getting cold out......if we see frost, it is time to go!  Only have 2 bays and fulltime so space is a valuable commodity for us, have no desire for a heating system, especially when every year i see all of the problems you guys have with them.....not to mention the initial cost, operating costs, and repair costs.  :)
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 24, 2013, 03:55:24 AM
Yup, Aint cheapo, just max comfy, we all do what fits our life style and budget if lucky.
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: sledhead on February 24, 2013, 05:02:10 AM
When your camped can't beat cube heater off the pole.But when your on the move can't beat the warm floor and the pro heat only works for start up until eng is up to 180f then its free heat.After parked I can turn on a elect. water heater to continue using the floor heat.Love the radiant heat.                  dave
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Scott & Heather on February 24, 2013, 05:17:03 AM
I'm installing some sort of floor radiant heat in our next coach. But for now, we are comfy with a cube heater in each of our two luggage plumbing bays and two cube heaters in the living area (one in bedroom and one in living room). Keep it around 73-74F in here. All day every day. The luggage bay heaters keep our floor toasty. Our electric is free. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/24/nu3y2yba.jpg)


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Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: sledhead on February 24, 2013, 05:26:52 AM
Scott looks like your set up nice and warm .Did you skirt the bottom then add snow!
Do you have a problem with condensation inside or do the cube heaters solve this
                          dave
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: morefire on February 24, 2013, 06:30:10 AM
3 gallons a day x 30 days is 90 gallons x $4 is $360 a month.  We are renting a lot in Yuma for $250. Our last electric bill was $70. We have 2 Olympian catalytic heaters which we hardly use, and a small cube heater in the living room and a small toe kick heater on a thermostat in the bedroom. Bus was converted in 83 and not intended for use in cold climates so insulation is not that great. We get along just fine on what we have and have the freedom to head for warmer weather when it starts getting cold out......if we see frost, it is time to go!  Only have 2 bays and fulltime so space is a valuable commodity for us, have no desire for a heating system, especially when every year i see all of the problems you guys have with them.....not to mention the initial cost, operating costs, and repair costs.  :)

Yea but Who dry camps for 30 days?  If I were going to spend 30 days in my coach it would have to be with full hook ups, and then I'd use the Electric option of the Aqua Hot, and I can also keep my engine warm at the same time. 
If I were on tour and doing allot of driving, then the heat comes from the engine for free.
If I were Dry camping for 30 days, there are more important issues such as sewage and fresh water that would concern me over the price of fuel ....

Anyway, as I said, I dry camp for 3-4 days at a time, often, and my fuel gauge doesn't even move, or if it does, it's not noticeable enough to talk about.   It's not cheap to own and operate a big monster bus with a massive fuel guzzling engine as it is, so I am not about to start worrying about which system can save me $20. On a camping expedition.   
If it were only about how inexpensive I can do things, I'd go buy a cheap camper trailer and pull it behind my pick up truck and forget this 40,000LBS bus

 
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: morefire on February 24, 2013, 06:37:17 AM

The benefits of the aqua hot system are worth the price of the system and the cost of operating it.  I’d never consider anything else….. well, that’s not true, I’d use a Hurricane system too.

 
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on February 24, 2013, 06:51:56 AM
Who dry camps for 30 days?  There are thousands of people in Az right now that are dry camping for weeks and months at a time. ;D  Since they aren't on a pole a cube heater won't work for them unless they are using a genny, which a lot of them do for other reasons. Our neighbor just had a quote of $500 for a new motor for his Webasto. :o  Some of us don't have a lot of income so have to try to keep costs down where we can. ;D
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on February 24, 2013, 06:56:56 AM
Hi Guy's,

My Proheat system is piped into a 12" x17" x 3" hydronic hot water coil that is

fabricated into my main Heat Pump's return air duct work. On the hydronic coil,

there is an Aquastat (set at 120 deg. with a 25 deg dif.) that brings on the main

fan in the Heat Pump system. The Proheat has it's own cabin T-stat and works

independant from the HP's.  Heats well and usually only on  from December to

March when the temps are below 30 deg.

If I were to do it again, I would install a flat panel baseboard hot water system.

This would eliminate the need for a fan and would heat more evenly.

Infloor systems take too long to heat up and too long to cool off if you ask me.. lol

Nick-
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: buswarrior on February 24, 2013, 07:25:08 AM
One of the big problems when we get into this topic, is what the heating needs for the coach are, which are a bit different than what our heating wants might be.

How much heating power does your coach typically need?

For instance, if all it takes to get the chill off is a cube heater, then I might suggest the heating power and related fuel consumption of a coolant boiler system is not necessary for you. 5000 BTU vs + 40 0000 BTU.

However, the busnut range of experience covers the whole continent. One person's cold is the next person's warm.

From the Arctic, all the way to Mexico. Very different basic requirements, very different heating power, and related energy consumption, required.

A small heating plant will be economical to run. However, there will be little excess heating power with which to "accelerate" raising the temperature in a cold coach, and an unexpected cold snap requires extra efforts to stay warm. Many busnuts have no need for a powerful heating plant.

But for those of us for whom a heating plant is a life support system, choosing a coolant boiler system over a fan forced propane furnace is a more than viable comparison and choice. Heat, and lots of it, are not a choice, but a requirement.

And that costs, no matter which kind of equipment you choose. The fan forced folks have to replace parts, same as the coolant boiler folks. It all costs money.

If you want an interesting discussion, the return on our money in life cycle costs would be of more value for the longer term camper than just comparing up front replacement costs. What life does one get out a freshened up coolant boiler versus a freshened up propane forced air furnace? How long does the $20 cube heater last? Do the $40 ones last any longer? What time has to be spent on maintaining any of these pieces of heating hardware?

So, there is no rational economic comparison to be made between the conditions in which a cube heater or two work, and where a coolant boiler will be an economical choice.

Run what you brung?

If we're going racing, would anyone consider a choice between buying a Ford Fiesta and a Chevrolet Corvette?
Each has a purpose, each has a place, neither will do well in the other's class.

For those newer at this heating system choices game, here's an article with some info:
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=43 (http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=43)

happy coaching!
buswarrior



Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on February 24, 2013, 08:38:21 AM
BW, got 2 cube heaters for $5 each about 6 years ago at a yard sale. Thought they might last a year or two if i was lucky. Never have used the second one yet, keeping it for a spare, i think i am getting  my monies worth out of them.  :)
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on February 24, 2013, 10:05:14 AM
BW makes a good point and i guess that that is what i am sort of saying too.  Depending on your comfort level, needs, and how you are going to use your bus, there are options out there. Just because the majority of people use one thing or another doesn't mean you have to. Someone just starting out reading our posts may think that they have to have this or that and not realize that that is not necessarily true. After all there are people out there that do not need or want patio awnings, slides, or stripper poles! ;D
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: wg4t50 on February 24, 2013, 10:27:48 AM
For me, 25 yrs ago, I was happy with a generator, hot plate , ice box & sleeping bag and was happy,   Today I have about all the bells & whistles, still happy.  Only major change, I was young and bullet proof, today I am neither.
Dave M
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: harleyman_1000 on February 24, 2013, 01:27:49 PM
I want a stripper pole and a stripper ;D
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on February 24, 2013, 03:18:20 PM
 I have even met bus owners that do not have computers and don't even know that the bus boards  exist!!!!
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on February 24, 2013, 03:20:06 PM
Lol,

I want salt water, sand and palm trees in my next coach... Lol ;D
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Geoff on February 24, 2013, 04:30:44 PM
I use my Webasto for days and weeks at a time.  The fuel gauge does drop, but we are warm and cozy.  That's why I don't sleep in a tent anymore.
Title: Re: Webasto heaters
Post by: Scott & Heather on March 03, 2013, 04:37:24 AM
Scott looks like your set up nice and warm .Did you skirt the bottom then add snow!
Do you have a problem with condensation inside or do the cube heaters solve this
                          dave

I did not skirt the bottom but I do recommend it. I used the snow this time around to skirt it a little. I have a cube heater in each of my two plumbing bays set to its lowest setting. We had a condensation problem on the windshield glass as well as the screw heads in the ceiling. On a warmer day, we dried the screw heads and put several layers of silicone caulk on them. Problem solved. On the windshield, we applied heat shrink film with a small air gap in between. Once again, problem solved. We now have zero condensation on our windshield and can enjoy a crystal clear view.


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