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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: richard5933 on October 12, 2017, 03:05:59 PM

Title: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 12, 2017, 03:05:59 PM
I received the initial offer from the insurance company today. We've got a long way to go, but they did indicate that at this point they would let me have the 4106 for about $3500.

Now comes the real decisions...

The 4106 is currently sitting in a tow yard in Des Moines, IA. Here's a basic rundown of the major equipment and fittings:

8V71 Detroit Diesel with about 150k since full rebuild. Was running strong before accident. Equipped with working Jacobs engine brakes.
V730 Allison Automatic Transmission with Bennet toggle electronic shifter
Rear suspension and cradle in good condition
Trojan T145 batteries (x4)
Progressive Dynamics 9720 12v charger
300-amp battery isolator
Alcoa rims (four - rear inner are steel)
Goodyear 11R22.5 tires (x7) new summer 2017 with only about 1,000 miles
Bay doors in great condition
GPS speedo
Kenwood stereo (x2)
13kw Mecc Alte generator (new summer 2017) mounted to Perkins 4.108 diesel
New toilet
New Shureflo water pump
Jennair downdraft cooktop & grill
Webasto 2010 (newly refurbished)
Cruiseair basement air with second unit in rear
Atwood Air Command 15K BTU with heat pump
Fantastic fan
Etc.

Question is this...

The bus sits in Des Moines. I'd love to be able to keep the engine/tranny/rear cradle. Not sure how I'd get them pulled, shipped, and stored once here. I'd also like to have the generator and some of the other equipment. I really don't know how practical it would be for me to accomplish this.

So, anyone have any thoughts on saving this bus from the crusher? Anyone have a place it could be brought to so that it could be stripped of usable parts? Anyone have need for any of the major components? The value of the parts far exceeds the money they want for the bus once the settlement is complete. The dollar value is important to me and I'd like to recover whatever I can from it, but more important is to not lose the valuable parts that others can benefit from.

This is all new to me, so I'm open to suggestions on how to best handle this. If I had my druthers I'd just drag it to my gravel lot behind the barn, but i don't know if that is even physically possible given the road and driveway situation here. Short of that, I want to see what can be done to not lose whatever value there is in this bus to the community.

Richard

Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 12, 2017, 03:22:55 PM
$3500.00 seems a little high to me most of the time for that vintage they go $2000.00 no matter what brand,be careful before you buy and make sure you don't have to pay the storage fees those can run into $1000's of dollars BTDT I paid $2000.00 for a MCI and the storage fees were $2800.00 those wrecker lot guys are bandits,they can get for what ever the law allows from $10 to $100.00 + per day,then they charge you a high @$# fee get it out of their yard where your guy can move it if they choose too     
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: pabusnut on October 12, 2017, 03:40:55 PM
Tell them that they will be lucky to get scrap prices, and then offer $2K or less.

They may be willing to dicker.


Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Paso One on October 12, 2017, 04:27:44 PM
My Vote is haul it home part it out at your leisure.
More value in the parts, than cost to haul plus the convenience of taking what you know is good.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: chessie4905 on October 12, 2017, 04:32:47 PM
Since a lot of items will work on  your current vehicle, have it hauled on a low boy to your location. I'd think you'd want the automatic in your new one in short order. Shifting gears isn't bad, but backing up sucks most of the time. Don't let it set at the current location. You'll rack up big $ in short order. Get insurance Co. to pay storage and get it out of there immediately after settlement.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: windtrader on October 12, 2017, 05:08:40 PM
Clifford makes a very good point about storage fees. If you can get it out quickly without big charges then why not just move it local to a storage place. Here is a bunch of options in Des Moines https://desmoines.craigslist.org/search/prk

You just bought some time and can organize a dismantle trip. Get as many orders for parts ahead of time. Once you have a few days, rent a Uhaul box truck, take all your tools, and have at it with a couple folks. Load all the stuff to keep in the truck, pack and ship the stuff you sold, prep the coach for the crusher, arrange to get it hauled off, and head home.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: DoubleEagle on October 12, 2017, 05:40:07 PM
I have one of my Eagles in a storage yard, and they are very restrictive about doing work on it in the yard, and they want the vehicle to be insured while it is there. Between storage fees and insurance, it costs about $140 a month to store. Serious dismantling of the bus might not be possible while in storage, plus cold weather is fast approaching. The value of what there is to take out to you should be the prime decision maker. It is either sell it to someone in the area that can use it before storage charges rack up, or bite the bullet and have it towed home. Stripping parts out seems like a good idea in our minds, but in reality it always takes longer than we estimate.  ;D
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 12, 2017, 05:43:02 PM
I would prefer to have it hauled to my property, but I just don't see it as a viable option. Aside from the cost of the haul (6+ hours drive time from Des Moines to my place) there is the problem if getting it into our driveway.

There is a circular driveway that goes around the house and behind the barn. The problem is that the turn is too tight to get a semi through. Ditto for a tow rig pulling the bus. There is enough room on one side to pull the bus in under its own power, but to get it out I've got to turn it around doing a 3-point turn behind the barn. We've got 4 acres, but only about 1 of them is flat and it's mostly filled with buildings.

That means that I'll be left with the option of having it taken to a storage yard somewhere and then paying storage fees, even if for a short time. I also don't know how I'd get the engine out on my own - my tractor is only 24 hp and would have trouble lifting the genny, let alone the rear cradle with engine/tranny.

I really do want to keep the engine as a spare, and I would like to install the tranny one day. Just don't know how to make that happen.

Right now I think the only things I could strip out myself would be the smaller electronics, batteries, and fixtures. There are a couple of thousand dollars worth of these items, and it would be worth the drive out there even if that was all I could get. I'd also be able to pull the bay doors to sell online to who ever needs them.

If anyone has thoughts about getting the bigger items like engine/trans/genset please let me know.

Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: windtrader on October 12, 2017, 06:23:03 PM
If towing home does not work, then you are limiting to what can be done locally (i.e. Des Moines area). Potential buyers outside the local area will likely face the same issues; specifically, towing costs, storage costs, dismantling costs, etc. You need to call the insurance folks and find out exactly if and how storage fees accrue.

Many years ago I had a car that got into a protracted negotiation with the insurance company about valuation. Many months passed but the car was definitely not in a tow yard. It was a covered warehouse that I suspect was a storage place for cars waiting settling out.

Just why do you want to bother with the coach? Because it has valuable stuff in it? Another way to look at the whole situation is if you can get a check large enough to satisfy you then just take it and forget the wrecked one. It may be hard to let it go as there is more in parts than they are offering if you buy it back but it might be better emotionally to just put the entire episode behind you and get a clear start with the new one you found.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: eagle19952 on October 12, 2017, 06:34:59 PM
odds are you'll never need the engine.
were i u i'd save the $3500.00 for a transmission... which u really don't need...want, perhaps.
the rest can be retrieved.
you'd be the first "to come out ahead" on a situation like this.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 12, 2017, 06:42:47 PM
....Just why do you want to bother with the coach? ...


Couple of reasons:

I tend toward preservation and don't like to see perfectly good parts for a vintage bus get crushed - that's the main reason. Even if I can't directly use the parts on our new coach, I'd prefer that someone make use of things like the bay doors and other salvageable parts if possible.

There are also parts on the bus which will be useful to me with our new one. If not the whole engine, I'd like to see if the Jake Brake off our old coach can be used to add Jake Brakes to our new one. Then there is the frugal side of me that would hate to see all the electronics i picked out so carefully just get tossed. Geez - the generator and electrical parts have only 4 hours use on them.

And of course, there is the emotional side. While I realize that it may not be practical for me to recover the parts, there is a part of me that hopes something can be rescued from an otherwise bad situation.

The money side? Not as important. While the initial settlement offer is not what I want, it was pretty much as expected and I'm certain that after a few heated phone calls and emails we'll be close enough to what I consider acceptable.

Does all this make sense logically? Probably not. Maybe I'll have a totally different view in another day or so. But for now this is where I am with it all.

Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: B_K on October 12, 2017, 09:03:28 PM
If it were me I'd wait until the Ins co gets right on the actual settlement price an then offer the low-ball price of $1500 an let them talk you up to $2000. Make sure they cover the storage fees. Then make a deal with the tow company where it is, or one you work with locally and have it hauled home. Once home you should be able to get a local farmer or contractor to use a trackhoe or large skid steer (bobcat) to push/guide (a good trackhoe operator will be able to swing the front end anyway needed to back it in like a trailer) it around the corner to the storage area where you want it. (again if it were me I'd go ahead an have a pad of gravel of the side added to either park it, or the new one on while you have that piece  of equipment on site)
When your ready to pull the engine/trans a rental forklift/bobcat will make it quick an easy!
:D  BK  :D
PS also if your local towing company has a "rotator" wrecker they can guide it where you need it just like a trackhoe could!
Title: Negotiate With The Insurance Company For A "Package Deal"? ...
Post by: HB of CJ on October 13, 2017, 01:02:54 AM
Negotiate with the Insurance Company for a package deal delivering the 4106 to a location of your choice?  Right now you may be held hostage to several choke points in the salvage process.

Impound duties and hidden demanded costs.  High transport fees by the mile.  Can all of this be avoided by having your insurance agent take care of everything?  They can negotiate better prices.

Most insurance agents do not want to do this.  Requires extra work in their opinion.  But sometimes a good long term family or family trust agent can and will do it ... if he or she wants to remain your agent.

Just thinking outside the box.  Be a shame to crush your hurt baby intact.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: buswarrior on October 13, 2017, 05:49:49 AM
You have 4 acres...

And you own another bus...

Big vehicles are your reality?

Get that place adjusted, widen, flatten, cut, fill, whatever...

It's your place, fix it?

Park the wreck on the lawn? That'll be sufficient motivation to do fast driveway upgrades?

Just make it happen.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 13, 2017, 06:53:28 AM
I would worry more about getting paid for the bus right now, when insurance co's dig their feet in it is a treat,the 3500 is his cost up to date I bet
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: chessie4905 on October 13, 2017, 07:15:43 AM
Keep in mind how much time and cost chasing everything to convert your new one to an automatic alone. Plus you have everything but a couple slave or masters for your Jake brakes. Id' figure some way to move it. If you don't you'll be kicking yourself for years for letting it go.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: chessie4905 on October 13, 2017, 07:16:04 AM
Keep in mind how much time and cost chasing everything to convert your new one to an automatic alone. Plus you have everything but a couple slave or masters for your Jake brakes. Id' figure some way to move it. If you don't you'll be kicking yourself for years for letting it go.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 08:00:03 AM
Anyone have any leads on a company within a few hour of Des Moines that could transport and temporarily store the 4106?

Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: j.m.jackson on October 13, 2017, 08:06:02 AM
Bring it home. The engine / transmission, the windows, the genny, doors, the unobtanium parts (wheel arch mouldings), wheels, webasto, the parts that you know. Consider it your mechanical insurance. The way things go for me, having a complete parts bus would guarantee that I'd never need them, because I have them on hand.

Think about this. You have the engine die in your new unit. It may run great today and catastrophically fail tomorrow. It would be really nice to have your known engine right there.

Same thing on the auto tranny, you've got everything right there.

Too bad coachnet won't tow it home. "Nearest qualified repair facility' is home.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: DoubleEagle on October 13, 2017, 08:09:36 AM
It really sounds like you need to get that bus home if at all possible. I would price the cost of having it towed or put on a Landall from several sources to see how expensive it really is. As has been said by buswarrior, there will be a way to wrestle that bus in to the back. Any piece of equipment that can lift the front end can shove it around and get it in, or something with a heavy-enough winch could drag it back. You don't have to worry about damaging the front end, and the lawn can be repaired, or wait for winter and slide it in.  ;)
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 12:15:04 PM
Without doubt I'd prefer to get the bus home if possible.

Not sure if there is a way to get the towed bus into our driveway though. Our place is on a two-lane county highway. No shoulder, ditches on both sides of pavement. I use both lanes to turn in/out of our driveway with a 35-foot bus under the best of circumstances due to obstacles building w/in 4 feet of pavement. If I can't get it to my place, then the next best would be to find a storage yard in the area where I can park it without paying too much.

I've started calling tow companies I work with here in Wisconsin, but a 35-foot bus is larger than they usually handle on their low-boy. Now I'm just starting to cold-call companies in our area whose websites indicate they may be able to help.

Then I've got to put pencil to paper and see if this all will make sense fiscally. I know that there is lots of value in the bus, especially in the larger items like the engine, transmission, genset, etc. Add all the other unobtainable pieces to be parted out and the value adds up. But, even if I can get it here, and even if I can find a place to store the old bus, and even if it doesn't cost too much, I've still got to figure out how to pull the parts from the carcass. My little utility tractor is not up to the task, my forklift is older than the bus and was barely able to lift the genset at my shop, let alone the engine (and it would just sink in the gravel yard at my home), and I'll have to add the cost of rented equipment to the mix when I crunch the numbers.

Bottom line, I'd like to keep the bus for the parts I need and to make the other parts available to others, but I'm just not sure yet how to make it happen.

Anybody in the Midwest that wants to lend a hand/storage space in exchange for parts?

Richard

Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: j.m.jackson on October 13, 2017, 12:27:39 PM
Richard:

On the equipment and what not to dismantle the bus, think outside the box. I live and work on my bus on gravel. If I had to pull the engine, there's no way I could lift it, all I have is a front end loader mounted on a JD garden tractor, a 2 ton hoist, a 3 ton floor jack, and a 20T bottle jack. If I had to pull it, I would back the bus up to my shop (barn), drop the engine, and pull the bus away from it. Heavy pipe and chain attached to front axle and the wife's chevy suburban SUV to move it. Ground is fairly level there. I'd also hook up shop air to run the bags and brakes.

How bad was the steering damaged? Can you rig it up to steer / have brakes so you can move it under its own power? May help LOTS to get it to it's storage location on your property.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 12:55:11 PM
How bad was the damage?

The impact happened under the driver's seat. Took out the air brakes, air suspension system, and steering. Shoved the front left wheel back to the bulkhead.

I don't think it will be moving under its own power in the near future.

Richard (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/d17ae6387faba68a191f760588a54160.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/6d9d8a782226036f7eba1253c4dc53cc.jpg)

1974 GMC P8M4108A125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: j.m.jackson on October 13, 2017, 01:35:31 PM
That's pretty ugly, and terrible for controls. Aux tank right there, PP valve, brake valve and throttle, steering right angle box. The radius arm and sway bar are right there, the frame member and front axle front bulkhead must have been shifted back to affect the axle geometry that way.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 02:04:27 PM
It was a pretty drastic impact, but surprisingly the majority of it was confined to this corner and the front of the bus. At least going by what's visible from the outside. I suspect that there is lots of structural damage internally though, as the skin in the driver's side is wavy about two-thirds of the way towards the rear.

All that said, there are still lots of good undamaged parts on this bus that I'd like to see saved from the crusher.

Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: brmax on October 13, 2017, 02:07:13 PM
It will take more than the standard haul rate, as that would be a rolling chassis.  If one cannot do much of the work themselves to lift and make Rolling then its easy to figure cost. A lot!
If one tries to do this in basic figure and that always to cheap is: Wisconsin to Iowa fuel in pickup and 3 days hotel with food 500. Then repairing the brakes to realese, so to roll. A problem i see at first glance and i cannot see much. So then say a wrecker for lifting front, in short order 500. so low deck trailer can be used to haul 2000.00“maybe” ( something lifting and moving this at the destination is required ) Then storage cost or that paperwork.

Best regards
Floyd
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 13, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
I have no idea what parts he is trying to save, a 8v71 with 150,000 miles with a V730 you are lucky to get 1000 bucks ,there is not much demand for a generator with the old Perkins diesel, with the hauling dismantling and paying $3500 for the bus.
 I personally don't see the advantage plus his new bus is a different model and not much is going to benefit him in the way of parts I know the engine cradle is different so that shoots down the easy engine swap BTDT and the 4108 he has now is 24v so the starter and alternator are not much good to him except for resale 
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 02:58:51 PM
I have no idea what parts he is trying to save, a 8v71 with 150,000 miles with a V730 you are lucky to get 1000 bucks ,there is not much demand for a generator with the old Perkins diesel, with the hauling dismantling and paying $3500 for the bus.
 I personally don't see the advantage plus his new bus is a different model and not much is going to benefit him in the way of parts I know the engine cradle is different so that shoots down the easy engine swap BTDT and the 4108 he has now is 24v so the starter and alternator are not much good to him except for resale 

I understand what you're saying, and the costs for doing this are starting to point towards field stripping as much as possible from the bus where it sits and then letting it go.

Question: How difficult is it to field strip the Jacobs Engine Brakes from the 8V71? The old bus has Jakes, the new one doesn't. If the necessary parts are interchangeable, does it make sense to pull them from the old bus? If this is practical, then where do I find a 'Flield Guide To Removing Jakes"?

Aside from the Jakes, I could easily field strip all the electronics, interior LED lighting, audio system, etc. as well as the Trojan batteries. The Perkins may not have value, but the new 13kw head does. Too bad it's not situated in a place that makes field stripping easy. Guess I could also remove the bay doors as well if someone needs them.

Richard

Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 13, 2017, 03:10:21 PM
Jakes are easy to remove takes a 3/4 socket for the bolts and a 1/2 wrench for the lines pop the body loose and grab the bridges (8) that is the most important item for a 71 series,save the long oil bolts and valve covers too then grab the buffer switch if it has one there is a pass through plastic nut on each head those are nice to save but new ones are cheap     
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 03:13:47 PM
I assume that the Jakes are on both heads. Can both be accessed from the engine bay?

Anywhere you can point me to see this in photos? I don't have a clear picture of what it is I'm removing.

Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: windtrader on October 13, 2017, 03:21:50 PM
Here is a strategy you can ponder; it worked for me. What you do is focus on getting the payoff as high as possible. Since you have the luxury of time on your side, drag it out. Meanwhile hold up the salvaging of the wrecked coach. Once you get stuck on payout, you then agree to the amount if you can get some items off the bus. That way you can extract some of the stuff without incurring any costs to you. The storage is on them and you can bet they will want to get the claim off the books and costing them money/space at storage.

This worked for me when I wrecked a beautiful collector BMW. At the end, I said give me access to the car to get some stuff off of it and we can close this out. Pulled off custom BBS wheels, stereos, etc. Still sad to let it go but helped just the same
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 13, 2017, 03:51:54 PM
You are right about the generator head,only problem if you tried to sell it people look at it a used generator head with no warranty and won't pay anything for it
Title: Re: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 04:03:38 PM
You are right about the head,only problem if you tried to sell it people look at it a used head with no warranty and won't pay anything for it
Not sure we're on the same page...

While I'd love to have the whole bus back at my place, it's not looking practical. That being the case, I'm leaning towards pushing the insurance company to let me pull what I can.

If I don't get the whole engine, then I'd want to at least strip the Jake Brakes. The Jakes should work on my new bus, with the exception of the 12v components.

Problem is, my knowledge of the Jakes is marginal. That's why I'd need to do some reading up on the subject to be sure I get the necessary parts.

Richard

1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 13, 2017, 04:11:28 PM
Let me know about the Jakes I will trade you 24V solenoids even for the 12v solenoids   
Title: Re: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 04:26:57 PM
Let me know about the Jakes I will trade you 24V solenoids even for the 12v solenoids 
They would be great. Can you point me towards some type of instruction or photos that shows what I'm going to be pulling? Is there a list of the necessary parts somewhere?

Richard

1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 13, 2017, 04:31:04 PM
Just go to Jacobs Brake site and look under 71/92 Jake Brake it is all there for your reading enjoyment   
Title: Re: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 05:23:37 PM
Just go to Jacobs Brake site and look under 71/92 Jake Brake it is all there for your reading enjoyment 
Tnx. That's what I needed to know. I've always said that it's not necessary to know everything, but it helps to know where the knowledge is kept.

Richard

1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 13, 2017, 07:36:56 PM
Just go to Jacobs Brake site and look under 71/92 Jake Brake it is all there for your reading enjoyment   

So if I have this correct, there is one unit per cylinder, and each unit is held on by two bolts. You mentioned 'bridges' - is that the same thing as the forks described in the parts listing? Or, am I missing this altogether?

Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: eagle19952 on October 13, 2017, 09:51:41 PM
I assume that the Jakes are on both heads. Can both be accessed from the engine bay?

Anywhere you can point me to see this in photos? I don't have a clear picture of what it is I'm removing.

Richard

i admire your gumption...but you have to know that you are reaching down the lions throat.
Maybe Scott Crosby would meet you there. it would probably be worth it for both of you...
i guess there is a first time for everything, this just doesn't seem like this is the right time to be that..
i do hope it all goes how you want, i really do. if i was in Iowa i'd help you.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 14, 2017, 04:27:17 AM
i admire your gumption...

Sometimes gumption is the only thing that keeps me going when all else fails.


Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on October 14, 2017, 05:49:19 AM
Richard,you find the bridges in your engine manual with the settings, the Jakes have 8 special bridges and those bridges are getting hard to find for 71 series.
I don't do photos here it is to much trouble .
The bridges tie the valves together and are under the rocker arms when you remove the Jake housings just flip the rocker up and remove the 8 that have a round circle on top no special tools are required to remove those.
The Jakes are on both head the lower head is a snap to remove the and install the Jakes the upper head on a GM not so easy.Down load the installation manual for 71/92A from the Jake site and the picture will be clearer       
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on October 21, 2017, 07:57:34 PM
As we get close to the end of negotiations with the insurance company, I'm putting together a list of things I want to retrieve from the 4106.

Does anyone have any specific parts they need from a 4106 that I can add to the list? Other than the obvious damage from the collision on the driver's front corner, most of the coach was still in good shape.

If the list is enough to make it worthwhile, I'll get a van and go for the day with a friend stripping out whatever I can using hand tools.

Let me know by posting a reply or (preferably) by PM.

Thanks.
Richard
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on November 07, 2017, 09:34:11 AM
Negotiations with the insurance company have been completed. I will not be getting access to the vehicle per our agreement.

However, I was able to get the information about the pending auction of the coach. I'm passing it along for anyone that is interested. If you would like information about equipment, etc. please let me know.

My goal here is just to prevent the remaining parts from ending up in the crusher.

The information about the auction can be seen here:

https://www.copart.com/lot/43420887/ (https://www.copart.com/lot/43420887/)
Title: Undesired Outcome ...
Post by: HB of CJ on November 07, 2017, 10:10:27 AM
This is too late and I understand.  However it might help others in future similar situations regarding insurance policies and the fine print.  Sometimes we find out after the fact that our implied coverage was only very dim smoke and mirrors.

Two ways to figure this out in future involvements.  Have your trusty friendly KNOWLEDGEABLE attorney go through the insurance papers with you before you obtain it.    Might cost some money.  Might prevent stuff like this from happening.

Then you would know exactly where you stand before any wrecks.  The first approach would be to lean on the insurance agent and make him do his job within the exact language of the policy.  Know where you stand beforehand.  Make him do his job.

Have the agent arrange everything delivering the wreck to you place.  He does everything.  You just accept delivery.  Too many little details that can de rail you with added costs.  Storage fees.  Hidden zingers.  Late demands.  What can you do?

Have the agent do it all for you.  The second thing is to document everything you have done to that collectible old 4106.  Get it all documented.  Take pictures.  Take video.  Save all receipts.  Save the daily personal log of all the hours of work, sweat and tears.

Keep it all together.  Do NOT give it to the agent.  But keep it available with copies with your attorney.  We do this.  Be amazed how much value we get tied up in old Bus Conversions.  Then if you have a claim you have legal documentation to present.

We must have car insurance.  Quite a racket if you ask me.  Legally required.  So if we are held hostage to the insurance industry be sure to be in a position of command and control.  Not the agent.  Sometimes lawyer letters get things rolling to suit you.

Respectfully.  :(  :(

Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on November 07, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
Not sure if I clarified it or not, but I was able to come to agreement with the insurance company regarding valuation on our coach. I fully understand how the insurance game works, and we did better than expected. Right now I'm not going to go into details regarding dollar amounts, but the final settlement was done through the other driver's policy and I think fairly represents the value.

The reason I'm not getting access to the vehicle is because it just didn't make sense financially. Between the cost of transporting the disabled coach and the difficulty of finding a place to store it once I got it, I made the decision to come to the final settlement with the insurance company taking title to the wreck. That's the way nearly all insurance settlements happen when there is a total loss, and no matter how I worked the numbers it just didn't make sense to try and keep the coach.

I had many long conversations with my agent (private insurance agent - not a company rep) about options. Unfortunately the way the laws are written the insurance companies are largely in the driver's seat when it comes to settlements. By Iowa law (where the accident took place) they were obligated to reimburse us for the fair market value of the coach. Replacement value was not an option. We had a stated value policy on our end, but since the other driver had higher limits we went with his policy's terms. The only real issue for debate was the fair value on the 4106.

At this point, my goal for posting here is only to let others know that there is a 4106 going for auction very soon with many usable and rare parts. If anyone has interest please contact the auction company at the link below. I am not going to be involved in this auction. I can answer any questions about the coach and the condition of the mechanical systems.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Fred Mc on November 07, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
What is  the auction link?
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Scott & Heather on November 07, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
He posted it a couple posts up. Richard, you did the right and smart thing. If the insurance company is giving you a fair value for the coach, you do not want to be dealing with transporting and trying to sell it piece by piece. If you actually want to go out and travel with your new coach and have a life, you don't want to pay money to the insurance company to buy the old one, plus the money to tow it to your property and then it sits there and rots because you just won't be able to sell it to anyone cause they don't want to deal with transport costs either. Wise move on your part. I could learn a thing or two from you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: pd4501-771 on November 07, 2017, 02:48:37 PM
The bummer about Copart  is one has to be a member of their group (or know someone that is). They requires licenses, etc. I did a little research about a Copart auction for a Scenicruiser that had suffered a bad interior fire a few months ago. There are several logistical hurdles it seems as well, as vehicles have to be removed something like three days after sale date. Easy for a guy in the salvage or bus business, not so easy for a hobbyist to pull off from three states away. I called the yard where the cruiser was in Michigan, and the gal would not even tell me if it sold (let alone to whom). I would guess for $700 minimum bid, a scrapper got it. oh well, win some....lose some I guess.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on November 07, 2017, 03:13:39 PM
...Richard, you did the right and smart thing. ...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

May have been the right thing. May have been the expedient thing. May have been the most financially sound thing. But, it was by no means the easiest thing.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: wildbob24 on November 07, 2017, 05:02:06 PM
The bummer about Copart  is one has to be a member of their group (or know someone that is). They requires licenses, etc. I did a little research about a Copart auction for a Scenicruiser that had suffered a bad interior fire a few months ago. There are several logistical hurdles it seems as well, as vehicles have to be removed something like three days after sale date. Easy for a guy in the salvage or bus business, not so easy for a hobbyist to pull off from three states away. I called the yard where the cruiser was in Michigan, and the gal would not even tell me if it sold (let alone to whom). I would guess for $700 minimum bid, a scrapper got it. oh well, win some....lose some I guess.

Yes, not only do you have to have a license, you need a license in the state where your desired vehicle is. I have a Copart license in Georgia and it is only good in Georgia. Can’t be used in any other state.

The other bad thing about Copart is they fee you to death. Over and above the hammer price, there are internet fees, gate fees, loading fees and like Tom said, storage fees if you don’t promptly remove the vehicle. Not really a place for the casual buyer.

They do have a program where an unlicensed buyer can use a local broker to buy for them, but, of course, that costs extra, as well.

Looks like a lot of good parts on Richard’s old bus. Maybe it’ll end up somewhere it can do some good.

Bob
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 05, 2018, 09:30:50 AM
Brief update on our old bus sitting in the auction yard...

The thing was still listed on the Copart site with no sale information, so I decided to give them a call. For whatever reason, Progressive has still not provided Copart with the title so they have not scheduled it for auction. The person there said that they'd probably wait a few weeks and then call and try and get the title. I know that Progressive has it since I sent it to them via overnight.

In talking with the person from Copart about this, they told me that at the Des Moines location where the bus is located the auctions are open to the public. No special license is required. That would mean that anyone interested in picking up a lot of still-usable parts would have an opportunity here.

There are only a few parts I want from the bus, namely the entire Jake Brake setup (valve covers, internal parts, solenoids, et al) and a few of the other accessories. Not enough to make it worth hauling all the way back to the Milwaukee area. However, if I could find a Des Moines area scrap yard willing to work with me there's a possibility that I could have them pick up the bus, strip what I want, and then scrap the rest. Scrap value should more than cover whatever they charge me for the pick and parts removal.

Of course, I'd be thrilled if someone else on the board here has need for the bus and can make use of it.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on January 05, 2018, 10:46:44 AM
The Jake setup is 12v it would cost you 400 bucks for just 24v solenoids
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 05, 2018, 12:02:12 PM
The Jake setup is 12v it would cost you 400 bucks for just 24v solenoids

I am aware. I need a complete system and others have offered to swap those 12v components for 24v pieces. Even if I have to purchase the solenoids for the 24v system, at least I'd be getting the rest of the parts from a vehicle which was known to be well maintained and to have a fully functioning Jake Brake system. I've been searching for a Jake system for the 4108, and all I've seen so far is buying things piecemeal without knowing the functionality of the parts.

If I can get the bus for a reasonable price, the scrap value should be more than enough to cover the pick-up fees and parts I need. If there are others out there that needs parts as well, then the cost goes down even more. When I found out that it would be possible to bid on the bus without special licensing I thought that it was worth posting here.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: chessie4905 on January 05, 2018, 03:04:26 PM
Just wire two 12 volt solenoids in series and run 24 volts. Uhhh, never mind, they are grounded through the castings. Thought I heard somewhere that 12 volt solenoids would work at 24 volt. and at one time were used for both. Maybe I imagined it. I dunno anymore.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: bigred on January 05, 2018, 04:20:51 PM
The bummer about Copart  is one has to be a member of their group (or know someone that is). They requires licenses, etc. I did a little research about a Copart auction for a Scenicruiser that had suffered a bad interior fire a few months ago. There are several logistical hurdles it seems as well, as vehicles have to be removed something like three days after sale date. Easy for a guy in the salvage or bus business, not so easy for a hobbyist to pull off from three states away. I called the yard where the cruiser was in Michigan, and the gal would not even tell me if it sold (let alone to whom). I would guess for $700 minimum bid, a scrapper got it. oh well, win some....lose some I guess.
     Didn't someone on our group by this coach fairly recently?? Some of the guy's were commenting on the Silver Eagle bumper.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: windtrader on January 05, 2018, 06:56:28 PM
Quote
Scrap value should more than cover whatever they charge me for the pick and parts removal.
Richard, not a certainty once you put all the true costs on paper. You have to factor in labor to legally remove and dispose of fluids. Salvage yard will adjust scrap value based on how clean the parts are ready to scrap. Like the aluminum parts removed together. 6 big truck tires - gonna be some fee for that. And fully loaded labor rates, does not take much to make the project not worth the potential profit. Sad but mostly true reality.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: pd4501-771 on January 06, 2018, 10:20:29 AM
     Didn't someone on our group by this coach fairly recently?? Some of the guy's were commenting on the Silver Eagle bumper.

Richard's old coach at CoPart in Iowa is a 4106. The Scenicruiser I was speaking of was in Michigan. The Scenic did have an Eagle bumper on it. It suffered a serious fire. I do not know what became of the bus after the auction, as that CoPart location would not tell me anything.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Geoff on January 06, 2018, 10:55:32 AM
From what I have seen there is no scrap value for a complete bus.  You are lucky to get it hauled away for free.  And giving it away whole is better than cutting it up and selling the metal for next to nothing.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: kyle4501 on January 06, 2018, 02:21:33 PM
My experience with scrapyards is they will offer you one price to get you to bring it in -- Then, once you actually roil up on their scales, the price drops drastically! (Maybe because they know you have spent a lot of money to get it there & aren't likely to pay more to take it back home. )

About 2 years ago, I was quoted $0.18 / pound for a whole bus, I showed them pictures & gave a honest description. They said they had taken them in before & that all I needed to do to get that price was remove the seats & all window glass. I was also required to drill a 2" hole in the bottom of the fuel tank, (the engine & transmission were already removed.) 

When I got it on the scale, they came up with all kinds of deductions that reduced their price to $0.03 . Then, they subtracted 100# per tire.

SO, the advice that you will be lucky to get it hauled off for free is not out of line. Don't count on a scrap yard to provide you much more than a place to leave it.  :o

EDIT:
The exception would be if the yard had a shredder big enough to take it whole, then you may get more.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: pd4501-771 on January 06, 2018, 05:40:39 PM
Des Moines is a large enough area you should be able to find experienced scrappers/haulers. The key is find someone with a landoll that has ties to a scrap metal business. Yards are ALL totally different. Some are very picky about tires, fuel tanks, etc. Others, I have found could not care less about any of that stuff. You must shop around to find ones you can deal with. Some are exactly as Kyle describes. If you show up as joe-public, and are not an established customer you might get the run-around. I have had good luck here in the Peoria area. When scrap was at it's highest several years back, a fellow I knew in Iowa was hauling lots of whole coaches from Texas to Iowa for scrap, and apparently making money at it? I bought a bunch of 4104 parts off one in Iowa that he had hauled from the Huston area. Prices are way down since then obviously, but scrap still has some value. Again the key is deal with an established insider. You won't get rich, but you should be able to offset some of your expenses. "legally remove all fluids" made me chuckle. When we haul scrap cars in, they grab them off the trailer with track-hoe, and puncture the fuel tanks with a pick-ax! Crazy but true!
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 22, 2018, 04:16:03 PM
Auction is scheduled for this Friday at noon CST.

I've decided to sit this one out. Auction is open to the public if anyone else wants to pick up some great parts.

https://www.copart.com/lot/43420887/ (https://www.copart.com/lot/43420887/)
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 26, 2018, 03:38:43 PM
Looks like this was a 'no-sale' at the auction today. They have a 'buy-it-now' price on it of $2800. That must have been the reserve price Progressive set.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Geoff on January 26, 2018, 03:55:12 PM
Richard, you're loosing coolant and have fresh water heater problems, want Jakes, Webasto, etc.  It sounds like you should buy it and tow it home just for the parts.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 26, 2018, 04:01:04 PM
Richard, you're loosing coolant and have fresh water heater problems, want Jakes, Webasto, etc.  It sounds like you should buy it and tow it home just for the parts.

Only if you're offering to do the tow  :)

When I priced it out, in the end I could buy a running parts bus for less than it would cost to get the thing home and pull the parts I need. Even more so if the cost for the wreck is $2800.

Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Fred Mc on January 26, 2018, 06:04:22 PM






































Maybe we could get a few guys together for a group buy.Wonder how much it would cost to ship to Seattle?










Maybe
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Fred Mc on January 28, 2018, 07:07:40 AM
Richard
Did you ever find out what it would cost to haul your old bus home?

Fred
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 28, 2018, 07:31:42 AM
Best estimate I can get is $3k to $5k. Need someone licensed to haul across state lines. Then I would need to find some where to park it since the tow truck couldn't get it to our property.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Templar52 on January 28, 2018, 09:01:49 AM
My God,this bus is repairable.....I saw worst...
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 28, 2018, 09:20:55 AM
My God,this bus is repairable.....I saw worst...

Not sure if you saw all the damage from the photos. The front axle is pushed back (far enough that the toolbox inside the bay behind the wheel well bulkhead was damage from the wheel pushing the bulkhead backwards). The bus has a bend across the roof from driver's window to entry door caused by the nose digging into the ground when we hit the ditch and pulling the front end down about an inch and a half, with a matching bend in the floor. The driver's side of the body has a waviness all the way down the side from absorbing the impact, and the mechanical systems in the compartment under the driver are basically all missing or torn apart, including the steering linkage, brake controls, etc. After the impact we had no steering, no brakes, and the suspension dropped.

If you had another donor bus I could see this being doable, but otherwise it would cost more in parts than the bus is worth. The drive train is in good condition, and if you had a workable body to put them in I could see the project succeeding. Otherwise I'm not sure how you're seeing this as repairable given the cost of the parts and the amount of time that would be needed.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Templar52 on January 28, 2018, 10:02:51 AM
If i had a shop,I will give a hell of a try to rescue this bus. Rebuilding thoses busses is not rocket science.
They were made to be reparable same ting as an airplane. Whent you remoove the various outside panels,you can easely change or repair the damage. There is a guy with a 4106 called the red santaclaus on bus for sale. He have a complete spare front axe.
The roof damage is again panels and maybe carlines length to change. This bus is very nice.
It's my point of view......
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 28, 2018, 10:31:41 AM
I also wish I had a shop where I could undertake something like this. As it is, I'm lucky to be able to do what I do working alone and outside.

Anyone that wants it, they have a 'buy it now' price listed. If anyone here gets it please keep us updated on what happens to it.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: chessie4905 on January 28, 2018, 10:38:07 AM
Remember that the mounts as part of the body have to be pushed out of place since those struts connect to axle, and how much damage to everything going down the central tunnel. You would need measurements to straighten undergoes points to insure correct mounting of axle. It would be better to get a good 4106 shell and transfer the good stuff over to it.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: eagle19952 on January 28, 2018, 06:37:08 PM
If i had a shop,I will give a hell of a try to rescue this bus. Rebuilding thoses busses is not rocket science.
They were made to be reparable same ting as an airplane. Whent you remoove the various outside panels,you can easely change or repair the damage. There is a guy with a 4106 called the red santaclaus on bus for sale. He have a complete spare front axe.
The roof damage is again panels and maybe carlines length to change. This bus is very nice.
It's my point of view......

buy it :)
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Templar52 on January 28, 2018, 06:51:21 PM
I don't have a shop....unfortunately
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Brassman on January 28, 2018, 10:31:21 PM
I second Fred, how much to ship to Seattle? That one's too good to put down!
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Dave5Cs on January 29, 2018, 10:09:53 AM
landoll to property and then put front on a wheel dolly and push it in with a 4x4 dually pickup to the back.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on January 29, 2018, 11:10:04 AM
landoll to property and then put front on a wheel dolly and push it in with a 4x4 dually pickup to the back.

If you saw our property and driveway situation you'd understand. We're on a busy county highway less than a hundred yards down from the top of a blind hill. There are no shoulders at all. Any kind of maneuver like this would require shutting down the road to avoid a collision, if it was even possible.

For this and many other reasons, I'm not going to be trying to bring our old coach home. I hope it finds a home among the bus community and not in a shredder somewhere.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on February 02, 2018, 12:50:58 PM
High bid today was $575. In the end this was another 'no sale' auction as it looks like it was below the reserve price Progressive set.

New 'buy it now' price is only $800. Bet they're wishing they'd let me keep it like I asked them when they first talked about the settlement with us.

I still have no interest in the expense and effort of getting it back to my area.

Anyone want a really cheap 8V71 and Allison V730? Comes complete with a slightly smooshed bus shell.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: windtrader on February 02, 2018, 01:38:59 PM
Richard,

Probably been stated before but how many miles is the closest salvage yard that would accept the coach?
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on February 02, 2018, 01:42:49 PM
Richard,

Probably been stated before but how many miles is the closest salvage yard that would accept the coach?


Now that the price is shown to be so low, I'm working with a yard near Des Moines to see if they can work out something with me. I don't have high hopes since so far they don't feel that the scrap value is very high on this.

Without a doubt the bus is worth a lot more to a bus collector or restorer than to anyone in the scrap or salvage world.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: windtrader on February 02, 2018, 01:48:22 PM
Well, so far no one has been able to support a reasonable price. It is what it is now. Maybe you can pull the motor/tranny and some of the parts, then get it scrapped. Not so much for any money, just dispose of the carcass. Sad way to end its life but if even you felt strongly it was worth more you could head down one of the other alternatives you outlined earlier. But adding up your own time, money, and labor to pursue that with the expectation of some net positive payoff seems a bit unclear. The strip and scrap option may hold real promise to come out whole and maybe even a few bucks for a six pack or two.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Geoff on February 02, 2018, 04:25:52 PM
Oh, well.  This is one of those deals where you have to be close and have a yard/shop to make it worthwhile.  Richard, I am glad you got the insurance settlement.  I just hate the thought of that bus going through a shredder with so many usable parts. 
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on February 04, 2018, 05:40:49 PM
Looks like someone snatched the bus from Copart finally. I guess lowering the price to $800 did the trick for Progressive.

If someone on this site got it, please post updates.

Otherwise, I'm now searching elsewhere for a set of Jake Brakes for our current 8V71 if anyone knows of a working set for sale.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: chessie4905 on February 04, 2018, 06:25:02 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-8v92-Complete-24-volt-Jake-Brake-System-ORIGINAL/122481168546?hash=item1c847250a2:g:voEAAOSwzaJYAPk6&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-8v92-Complete-24-volt-Jake-Brake-System-ORIGINAL/122481168546?hash=item1c847250a2:g:voEAAOSwzaJYAPk6&vxp=mtr)

I know they are 24 volt. You could get the 12 volt solenoids and sell the 24 volt ones.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Scott & Heather on February 06, 2018, 07:27:34 PM
I posted the link on the Bus group on Facebook. My guess is someone there snatched it


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Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on February 07, 2018, 02:13:51 AM
I posted the link on the Bus group on Facebook. My guess is someone there snatched it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Could be. I don't do Facebook, so if you see it there sometime please post an update. It would be nice to know it avoided the crusher.
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: luvrbus on February 07, 2018, 06:08:45 AM
There is no mention of it on the GM Facebook page so it probably has gone to big GM parking lot in the sky
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: Fred Mc on February 07, 2018, 09:33:52 AM






































































I contacted  the manager at Copart but he said they cant give out any info on who bought it.










I
Title: Re: Parting out 4106 - maybe
Post by: richard5933 on February 08, 2018, 07:39:37 AM
I just got word that this 4106 was bought by someone in Minnesota. The text message was sent to me by Dan (the person we bought the bus from). Seems that the buyer contacted his brother looking for help getting it home from Iowa. Amazing to me just how small the world is. What are the odds that the bus would make a full circle like this. Not only has Dan been involved in selling this bus to us and in its rescue from the crusher, he also has driven our current bus. He's friends with the guy in NJ we bought it from and drove it while visiting last year. Very small world.

Apparently the new owner is going to try and use the engine/tranny to upgrade his current 4106 and may re-purpose the 13kw genset to make a home backup generator.

So glad to hear it was saved from the crusher.