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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: richard5933 on March 19, 2018, 12:22:43 PM
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Anyone using reflective tape to increase night time visibility? I've been a fan of this stuff and use it on my shop step van, but I'm not sure I want to dirty up the side/rear of our bus with the stuff. That said, the factory reflectors on our 1974 GMC 4108 are kind of small and sparsely placed. Kind of torn between putting it on the bus and just leaving things be.
If anyone's got it on their coach I'd love to see how it looks.
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Buy a pack of them and temp tape to coach in selected locations with transparent cellophane tape. And see how it looks to you. Don't permanently install over the polished aluminum, as it will show the location if ever removed. Like hanging a picture over a paneled wall for a long time. Reflective pin stripes could work and enhance that paint job.
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White is also an option. It may blend in with paint schemes better in the daytime than the Red or Amber. I will be installing it on the rear (and possibly the front) of my bus for increased safety if I am ever on the roadway at night and have an electrical issue.
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X2
My coach came from its previous life with a 3/4 inch silver/white continuous tape all the way around the belt line.
Unobtrusive, yet does the job you want it to do.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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There are a few different varieties of white and silver http://reflective-tape.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/white_compare.jpg (http://reflective-tape.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/white_compare.jpg)
Be aware tho it is a real pita to get rid of. The top layer comes off like normal vinyl lettering but leaves a sticky under layer that is reeeeally difficult to remove.
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My Prevost has a 3/4" wide white strip in the middle of the bumper that runs down both sides. I just dug out the old and installed new tape last year and it really looks good at night. There are also some amber up front and red near the rear reflectors that are put on with double sided tape. I moved them to cover a couple of little dings in the stainless ;D
Will
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Finally decided to apply a limited number of pieces on the sides as well as a piece across the back. Also put a white stripe on the front bumper. Hardly shows up during the day, but they really make a huge difference at night.
(bright white reflector next to drivers window is the pylon. I keep that there so the milk truck driver doesn't get too close when he comes through overnight)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180407/a7745885fe85df20d19dfd9c00ee39ae.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180407/334ce27cbf6c6deb287badc52b72f9cc.jpg)
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nice looking coach :)
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Very nice looks like that coach has been taken care of very well.
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Thanks - trying to keep it looking nice is the purpose for the reflective tape. The factory reflectors really don't do much unless the approaching vehicle's lights hit them head on. The reflective tape really makes the thing stand out. I'm glad that I decided to add it.
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That is a beautiful coach and I agree that the reflective tape is an effective anti-
collision measure. Jack
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Richard, years ago when I was planning to paint the 4107, I got samples of various colors of reflective tape. While I don't remember the source, the words "engineer tape" were used. In searching the internet just now, I found this website. Some of the colors may work with your paint scheme.
https://colesafety.com/Reflective-Safety-Tapes_c20.htm (https://colesafety.com/Reflective-Safety-Tapes_c20.htm)
Arthur
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What regulations apply to reflective surfaces on vehicles? White, red, orange are common colors but are there rules on where these can be applied? Then colors like blue reflective might be restricted. Just thinking like blue reflectors on the street indicate fire hydrant capacity. They sure do light up things.
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Google "commercial vehicle conspicuity" and choose a pdf.
Some of the rules apply according to the year of manufacture, others required retrofit.
Beware, that if the busnut coach is registered as an RV, housecar, motorhome, etc... the water gets muddy, since it isn't a commercial vehicle any longer.
Unless the regulation refers to "vehicles" of certain sizes and dimensions...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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this leads to the dirty details, at least the start of the chain of regs on reflective tape on vehicles.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.108 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.108)
S8 Reflective device requirements.
S8.1 Reflex reflectors.
S8.1.1 Number. See Tables I-a, I-b, and I-c.
S8.1.2 Color. See Tables I-a, I-b, and I-c.
S8.1.3 Mounting location. See Tables I-a, I-b, and I-c.
S8.1.4 Mounting height. See Tables I-a, I-b, and I-c.
S8.1.5 Activation. No requirement.
S8.1.6 Effective projected luminous lens area. No requirement.
S8.1.7 Visibility. No requirement.
S8.1.8 Indicator. No requirement.
S8.1.9 Markings. See. S6.5.1.2.
S8.1.10 Spacing to other lamps or reflective devices. No requirement.
S8.1.11 Photometry. Each reflex reflector must be designed to conform to thephotometry requirements of Table XVI-a when tested according to the procedure of S14.2.3 for the reflex reflector color as specified by this section.
S8.1.12 Physical tests. Each reflex reflector must be designed to conform to theperformance requirements of the vibration test, moisture test, dust test, and corrosion test of S14.5, and the color test and plastic optical material test of S14.4.
S8.1.1P3 Alternative side reflex reflector material. Reflective materialconforming to GSA Federal Specification L-S-300 (incorporated by reference, see § 571.5), may be used for side reflex reflectors if this material as used on the vehicle, meets the performance requirements of Table XVI-a.
S8.2 Conspicuity systems. The requirement for conspicuity systems may be met with retroreflective sheeting, conspicuity reflex reflectors, or a combinationof retroreflective sheeting and conspicuity reflex reflectors.
S8.2.1 Retroreflective sheeting.
S8.2.1.1 Retroreflective sheeting must consist of a smooth, flat, transparent exterior film with retroreflective elements embedded or suspended beneath the film so as to form a non-exposed retroreflective optical system.
S8.2.1.2 Retroreflective sheeting material. Retroreflective sheeting must meet the requirements, except photometry, of ASTM D 4956-90 (incorporated by reference, see § 571.5) for Type V Sheeting. Sheeting of Grade DOT-C2 of no less than 50 mm wide, Grade DOT-C3 of no less than 75 mm wide, or Grade DOT-C4 of no less than 100 mm wide may be used.
S8.2.1.3 Certification marking. The letters DOT-C2, DOT-C3, or DOT-C4, as appropriate, constituting a certification that the retroreflective sheeting conforms to the requirements of this standard, must appear at least once on the exposed surface of each white or red segment of retroreflective sheeting, and at least once every 300 mm on retroreflective sheeting that is white only. The characters must be not less than 3 mm high, and must be permanently stamped, etched, molded, or printed in indelible ink.
S8.2.1.4 Application pattern.
S8.2.1.4.1 Alternating red and white materials.
S8.2.1.4.1.1 As shown in Figures 12-1 and 12-2, where alternating material is installed, except for a segment that is trimmed to clear obstructions, or lengthened to provide red sheeting near red lamps, alternating material must be installed with each white and red segment having a length of 300 ±150 mm.
S8.2.1.4.1.2 Neither white nor red sheeting must represent more than two thirds the aggregate of any continuous strip marking the width of a trailer, or any continuous or broken strip marking its length.
S8.2.1.5 Application location. Conspicuity systems need not be installed, as illustrated in Figure 12-2, on discontinuous surfaces such as outside ribs, stake post pickets on platform trailers, and external protruding beams, or to items of equipment such as door hinges and lamp bodies on trailers and body joints, stiffening beads, drip rails, and rolled surfaces on truck tractors.
S8.2.1.6 Application spacing. As illustrated in Figure 12-2, the edge of any white sheeting must not be located closer than 75 mm to the edge of the luminous lens area of any red or amber lamp that is required by this standard. The edge of any red sheeting must not be located closer than 75 mm to the edge of the luminous lens area of any amber lamp that is required by this standard.
S8.2.1.7 Photometry. Each retroreflective sheeting must be designed to conform to the photometry requirements of Table XVI-c when tested according to the procedure of S14.2.3 for the color and grade as specified by this section.
S8.2.2 Conspicuity reflex reflectors.
S8.2.2.1 Certification marking. The exposed surface of each conspicuity reflex reflector must be marked with the letters DOT-C which constitutes a certification that the reflector conforms to the conspicuity reflex reflectorrequirements of this standard. The certification must be not less than 3 mm high, and must be permanently stamped, etched, molded, or printed in indelible ink.
S8.2.2.2 Application pattern.
S8.2.2.2.1 Alternating red and white materials. Conspicuity reflex reflectors must be installed in a repetitive pattern of two or three white reflectors alternating with two or three red reflectors, with the center of each reflector not more than 100 mm from the center of each adjacent reflector.
S8.2.2.2.2 White material. White conspicuity reflex reflectors must be installed with the center of each reflector not more than 100 mm from the center of each adjacent reflector.
S8.2.2.3 Photometry.
S8.2.2.3.1 Each red conspicuity reflex reflector must be designed to conform to the photometry requirements of Table XVI-a for a red reflex reflector and Table XVI-b for a red conspicuity reflex reflector when tested according to the procedure of S14.2.3 as specified by this section.
S8.2.2.3.2 Each white conspicuity reflex reflector installed in only a horizontal orientation must be designed to conform to the photometry requirements of Table XVI-a for a white reflex reflector and Table XVI-b for a white horizontal conspicuity reflex reflector when tested according to the procedure of S14.2.3 as specified by this section.
S8.2.2.3.3 Each white conspicuity reflex reflector installed in a vertical orientation must be designed to conform to the photometry requirements of Table XVI-a for a white reflex reflector, and Table XVI-b for a white horizontal conspicuity reflex reflector and a white vertical conspicuity reflex reflector when tested according to the procedure of S14.2.3 as specified by this section.
S8.2.3 Conspicuity system installation on trailers.
S8.2.3.1 Trailer rear.
S8.2.3.1.1 Element 1 - alternating red and white materials. As shown in Figure 11, a strip of sheeting or conspicuity reflex reflectors, as horizontal as practicable, must be applied across the full width of the trailer, as close to the extreme edges as practicable, and as close as practicable to not less than 375 mm and not more than 1525 mm above the road surface at the strip centerline with the trailer at curb weight.
S8.2.3.1.2 Element 2 - white. (not required for container chassis or for platformtrailers without bulkheads).
S8.2.3.1.2.1 As shown in Figure 11, two pairs of strips of sheeting or conspicuity reflex reflectors, each pair consisting of strips 300 mm long of Grade DOT-C2, DOT-C3, or DOT-C4, must be applied horizontally and vertically to the right and left upper contours of the body, as viewed from the rear, as close to the top of the trailer and as far apart as practicable.
S8.2.3.1.2.2 If the perimeter of the body, as viewed from the rear, is other than rectangular, the strips may be applied along the perimeter, as close as practicable to the uppermost and outermost areas of the rear of the body on the left and right sides.
S8.2.3.1.3 Element 3 - alternating red and white materials. (not required fortrailers without underride protection devices).
S8.2.3.1.3.1 As shown in Figure 11, a strip of Grade DOT-C2 sheeting no less than 38 mm wide or reflectors must be applied across the full width of thehorizontal member of the rear underride protection device.
S8.2.3.2 Trailer side - alternating red and white materials.
S8.2.3.2.1 As shown in Figure 11, a strip of sheeting or conspicuity reflex reflectors must be applied to each side, as horizontal as practicable, originating and terminating as close to the front and rear as practicable, as close as practicable to not less than 375 mm and not more than 1525 mm above the road surface at the strip centerline at curb weight, except that at the location chosen the strip must not be obscured in whole or in part by other motor vehicle equipment or trailer cargo.
S8.2.3.2.2 The strip need not be continuous as long as not less than half the length of the trailer is covered and the spaces are distributed as evenly as practicable.
S8.2.3.2.3 If necessary to clear rivet heads or other similar obstructions, Grade DOT-C2 sheeting may be separated into two 25 mm wide strips of the same length and color, separated by a space of not more than 25 mm and used in place of the retroreflective sheeting that would otherwise be applied.
S8.2.4 Conspicuity system installation on truck tractors.
S8.2.4.1 Element 1 - alternating red and white materials. As shown in Figure 13, two strips of sheeting or conspicuity reflex reflectors, each not less than 600 mm long, located as close as practicable to the edges of the rear fenders, mudflaps, or the mudflap support brackets, must be applied to mark the width of the truck tractor.
S8.2.4.1.1 The strips must be mounted as horizontal as practicable, in a vertical plane facing the rear, on the rear fenders, on the mudflap support brackets, on plates attached to the mudflap support brackets, or on the mudflaps.
S8.2.4.1.2 Strips on mudflaps must be mounted not lower than 300 mm below the upper horizontal edge of the mudflap. If the vehicle is certified with temporary mudflap support brackets, the strips must be mounted on the mudflaps or on plates transferable to permanent mudflap support brackets.
S8.2.4.1.3 For a truck tractor without mudflaps, the strips may be mounted outboard of the frame on brackets behind the rear axle or on brackets ahead of the rear axle and above the top of the rear tires at unladen vehicle height, or they may be mounted directly or indirectly to the back of the cab as close to the outer edges as practicable, above the top of the tires, and not more than 1525 mm above the road surface at unladen vehicle height.
S8.2.4.1.4 If the strips are mounted on the back of the cab, no more than 25% of their cumulative area may be obscured by vehicle equipment as determined in a rear orthogonal view.
S8.2.4.2 Element 2 - white. As shown in Figure 13, two pairs of strips of sheeting or conspicuity reflex reflectors, each pair consisting of strips 300 mm long, must be applied horizontally and vertically as practicable to the right and left upper contours of the cab, as close to the top of the cab and as far apart as practicable.
S8.2.4.2.1 No more than 25% of their cumulative area may be obscured by vehicle equipment as determined in a rear orthogonal view.
S8.2.4.2.2 If one pair must be relocated to avoid obscuration by vehicle equipment, the other pair may be relocated in order to be mounted symmetrically.
S8.2.4.2.3 If the rear window is so large as to occupy all the practicable space, the material may be attached to the edge of the window itself.
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Our coach is definitely registered/titled as a motor home, not a commercial vehicle. It still has all the factory-installed lighting and reflectors. They all still function. My only goal here was to increase visibility in situations where the vehicle is parked at night to help other motorists see the vehicle. In my opinion I've accomplished this.
My understanding is that the requirements in effect on the date of manufacture are the ones that the vehicle needs to comply with if it's not in commercial service. I could be wrong, but I did some reading/research on this and could only find reference to retrofitting for commercial vehicles. If someone knows of a requirement to retrofit older vehicles I'd appreciate a pointer leading to the information.
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If truckers can run a shiny hiny, I wouldn't be concerned with what a LEO might say about a few reflectors on a non commercial rig.
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If truckers can run a shiny hiny, I wouldn't be concerned with what a LEO might say about a few reflectors on a non commercial rig.
Yes, if FMVSS Std. 108 says that if a certain device is required on new vehicles after a certain date, it doesn't have any bearing on retrofit on earlier vehicles, under Federal law. A complication could be Federal preemption - if a Federal standard says that a vehicle must have something, then no state can enforce a different requirement for a vehicle subject to the standard. But if a state differs from a Federal Standard before the Fed. standard goes into effect, it can still enforce its requirement for earlier vehicle, in theory. A vehicle that's not required to have something is not prohibited from having that safety device unless installing it creates an obvious hazard.
I say "in theory" because I can't imagine any officer is going to see reflector marked vehicles running down the highway every day and then pull over a vehicle that has that and demand to see the registration to nitpick the model year to determine if he can write a ticket. And, in general, unless there's an obvious hazard, LE tends towards allowing retrofits if it brings an older vehicle up to a later standard voluntarily.
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I really like the added visibility of the reflective tape. Before putting on, I'm going to pay attention to placement, colors, and arrangement/sequence on trucks and trailers on the road. Also, when shopping look for DOT approval. May be overkill but I certainly don't know the science behind the standards to know if certain patterns, placement, arrangements, colors, etc. may distract rather than enhance.
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... Also, when shopping look for DOT approval. ...
Good point for several reasons. Back when I was a useful, productive citizen (you know, before I got my snout in the gummint trough and became fodder fer them Obommer Death Panels), working to assure compliance with DOT standards was part of my job for over 40 years. The national standards are recognized by States and Provinces (even if they aren't crazy about preemption). If you have an officer who is "trying to find something to pin on you" and you can point to him and say "these reflectors match the requirements of the Federal Standards and here's the 'DOT' label", you are likely to deflect all but the most determined to be a jerk.
(Note to GWN friends: We've been talking FMVSS and DOT here, but CMVSS and Transport Canada works the same way.)
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There is no overkill in how visible a vehicle should be. A common accident in the trucking world is when a tractor trailer pulls out onto a dark street at night and gets T-boned by a car because there isn't enough lighting along the side of the trailer.
JC
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On the highway?
What about at the rally?
Finding the coach late at night, staggering back from the campfire...
If everyone puts tape on, how am I going to find MY coach?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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On the highway?
What about at the rally?
Finding the coach late at night, staggering back from the campfire...
If everyone puts tape on, how am I going to find MY coach?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Maybe you need to put one of these on your coach...
https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/ (https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/)
:)
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Maybe you need to put one of these on your coach...
https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/ (https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/)
:)
Wait a minute, where did I put my phone????
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And no puttin' .|.. just for recongnition
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You've never been at a bus rally campfire?
First, the (profanity deleted) phone shouldn't be at the campfire. You aren't there to check yer email, Google, or receive calls... and if you are on stand by as a kidney donor, chances are you aren't at the bus rally...
Second, manual dexterity is required to make the app work, now lost due to the extra-curricular campfire activities.
Third, is it going to work with no cell service?
Old fashioned flashlight and my reflective tape work REAL GOOD.
Bring on the EMP?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Come on buswarrior, you need your phone to take pics to post on Facebook.Geesh......😏
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If self-actualization requires FB pics of a bus rally campfire...
Back to the urban cocoon, please.
Some of us are in witness protection...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Greetings, All -
Since I don’t have photo resizing capability on my iPad, and the SMF software on this forum hasn’t been updated to allow larger formats, here’s a link to my contribution to this thread:
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php/topic,3278.0.html (http://busnut.com/forum/index.php/topic,3278.0.html)
FWIW & HTH...
;)
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Greetings, All -
Since I don’t have photo resizing capability on my iPad, and the SMF software on this forum hasn’t been updated to allow larger formats, here’s a link to my contribution to this thread:
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php/topic,3278.0.html (http://busnut.com/forum/index.php/topic,3278.0.html)
FWIW & HTH...
;)
Can't see the pix over there. Does one need to be registered to see photos on that site?
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Can't see the pix over there. Does one need to be registered to see photos on that site?
Richard -
I've been a member over there for so long I've fogotten, but I believe you do. Simple process, and Buswarrior is one of the moderators, so could/would approve you quickly.
Right, Buswarrior?
;)
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You call yourself a busnut and you only belong to one Board????
sheesh.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Ok - I'm guilty.
Just submitted registration.
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A little more research on reflective tape for large trucks.
this article discusses more about the DOT and other agencies covering this subject. Commercial truck and trailers are covered, not buses.
https://www.seton.com/blog/2014/01/reflective-tape-regulations-what-you-need-to-know (https://www.seton.com/blog/2014/01/reflective-tape-regulations-what-you-need-to-know)
This article shows recommended placement of the striping
https://reflectivetapedirect.com/collections/dot-reflective-tape (https://reflectivetapedirect.com/collections/dot-reflective-tape)
Here's a link to a specific 3M product This one is 2", there are wider ones available.
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotchlite-White-Conspicuity-Tape/dp/B0000AXEFE (https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotchlite-White-Conspicuity-Tape/dp/B0000AXEFE)
It seems highly likely there is no federal regulation on reflective tape on a converted OTR bus, now a consumer RV. However, the fact remains we are driving a commercial class vehicle. One other clarification is the white/red repeating pattern is the approved color/pattern/size. Other colors are not mentioned. Probably not illegal but not technically legal.
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Other colors are not mentioned. Probably not illegal but not technically legal.
Don -
Explain, then, the yellow reflective tape found on school buses? ???
Since we don't normally travel after sunset, I'm not worried about being stopped by the gendarmes.
I wanted the visibility for when we're parked overnight, be it in a campground, Wally World, rest stop, truck stop, etc.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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If we are going to discuss regulations...
Shouldn't we refer to regulations?
Let's leave the careless conjecture to social media and keep the tradition and discipline of good research on the bus forums?
It is quite acceptable to say "I don't know the rest, but here's what I found so far"
Why haven't busnuts been rounded up and ticketed for the way we display now? Why can I find so much variation between units at a bus rally, yet we aren't ticketed?
Indeed, what's with the yellow tape? No tape? Different colours of tape?
This is not an issue of opinion.
Keep digging, you'll get there!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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Well, why are school busses yellow?
Maybe school bus have different federal safety regulations.
dig dig did find this - closer to answer i guess, good enough for me.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.217 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.217)
S5.5.3 School Bus.
49 CFR 571.217 - Standard No. 217
Here is some fun stuff regarding the school bus stop sign including color range and reflectivity.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.131 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.131)
This explicitly calls out yellow as the reflective color
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SDTFZCMTJ0IJ:reflectivetape.info/fmvss-131-fmvss-217-school-bus-reflective-tape-marking-requirements/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SDTFZCMTJ0IJ:reflectivetape.info/fmvss-131-fmvss-217-school-bus-reflective-tape-marking-requirements/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
I don't care - pick any color you want. Practically speaking any will offer more safety, just not sure what the technical legalities are. You can dig more if you get in front of a judge. lol