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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Jcparmley on September 15, 2018, 06:51:30 PM
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I am at the point in my conversion that I need to make a decision as to do a roof raise or not. I have the tools and am a pretty good welder. Any advice will be appreciated. Also, if you have raised an MCI 102c3 and have advice that would be great.
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I am at the point in my conversion that I need to make a decision as to do a roof raise or not. I have the tools and am a pretty good welder. Any advice will be appreciated. Also, if you have raised an MCI 102c3 and have advice that would be great.
how tall are you ? the C3 has 6 ft 7 inches
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Are there caps available, or will you have to fabricate your own gap fillers?
It is all about headroom in my mind, I am 6'4", but left an MC8 at stock height and stock insulation.
If it is about insulation, price what another 15 to 20k of BTU in heat and cooling costs, then decide if all the work is worth saving the increased HVAC price.
That's the trouble with rolling your own... both ways are correct for someone...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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That's a good point. I never thought of it that way before. I am 6 foot but wanted to raise the roof so I could add 2 or 3 inches of floor insulation and have standard upper kitchen cabinets. I am not sure if there are caps available or if I would need to fabricate my own. I was planing on using a mini split ac and I am trying to decide what I want to do for heat. I was debating between a diesel fired unit or electric. What are your thoughts?
Are there caps available, or will you have to fabricate your own gap fillers?
It is all about headroom in my mind, I am 6'4", but left an MC8 at stock height and stock insulation.
If it is about insulation, price what another 15 to 20k of BTU in heat and cooling costs, then decide if all the work is worth saving the increased HVAC price.
That's the trouble with rolling your own... both ways are correct for someone...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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I made my own cabinets with maybe $300 of wood (oak ply).
I don't know if wanting to use standard cabinets is financially worth it. Even hiring it out would make more sense, but you do you.
In my MC9, I think I'd have liked a raised roof, but it wasn't in the budget.
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Pre-made cabinets are often constructed in some way with particle wood.
Do NOT put particle board in your conversion. It absorbs moisture and swells up, bursting it's seams and in many cases, adds a smell to the coach as a result.
The interior of a coach has wild humidity swings, along with the temperature.
Leave a book lying open , or some papers, on a table while the coach is stored not in use, the open pages will show you what's going on.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
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If you don't raise the roof and still want insulation underfoot, consider spray foam insulation under the exterior floor and fender wells. That will also help insulate your bays and you won't lose any of your headroom.
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Jc, particle board and pressboard cabinets that you would buy at most places including Home Depot, won't withstand the twisting and vibration of the bus, the screws will strip out and they will swell up over time with the humidity increases inside every time you take a shower or wash the dishes, lvmci...
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more cooling heating capacity is always cheaper and easier imo.
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I was planing on building my own cabinets with 3/4 birch ply. I was planing on using doors I already have. That is why I wanted to use standard upper cabinet size.
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That is actually a good idea. So insulate under the bus? How much could you get under there and won't the road debris ruin the insulation? How would you recomend insulating the bay doors?
If you don't raise the roof and still want insulation underfoot, consider spray foam insulation under the exterior floor and fender wells. That will also help insulate your bays and you won't lose any of your headroom.
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Re:cabinet construction
Yes that's one big reason we made our own in our kitchen remodel (stationary home) and that gave me the confidence to build my own here. To buy store bought cabinets that don't use particle board is a very premium price. I want to say $300-500 each (with soft close hardware).
Knowing everything is solid oak or nice oak ply that will stand up to moisture is good peace of mind.
Edit: You can make your own doors, come on, where is your can-do attitude? :-)
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I recently built a cabinet for the boy's S&S where a roof leak had gotten to the particle board in one of the old ones . It wasn't hard and allowed a perfect fit to the roof.
For this one, we went to a local stair builder and bought a 5/4" oak board about five ft long and 15" wide for either $40 or $60 and they planed and sanded it down for us to the thickness we wanted to match the old cabinet sides. We got 3 sides out of it and enough wood for one more left over. Solid red oak, damn near flawless. A trip to Home Depot yielded a 3"x 6' x 3/4" red oak board for less than $10, and I had some scraps of 3/4" red oak laminated plywood for the bottom. Table saw and radial saw for the cuts, nothing fancy there. Belt sander for smoothing, clamp, glue and screw for assembly with some use of a pneumatic brad nailer. Judicial use of wood putty before finishing, and it looks as good as a commercial cabinet and is much more solid. Re-used the original door and hardware. Took less than a week to complete including gluing and 3 coats of urethane, just occasionally doing a task.
Guys it isn't that hard to do. Now I do have the advantage that my dad was an amateur cabinet maker and he made quite a few of them, learned the tricks and bought the tools. I learned from him but never set up to do that work, I just used what I had on hand and you can too. Chop saws are cheap these days and very, very good.
If you want to make doors, I suggest you see if you can buy the pre-shaped mouldings and picture frame gluing clamps. Other than that, a 1/2" router and router table can be used with the proper cutter. That will take a little finesse and a great deal of care and caution but is more than possible. Or maybe you can find someone like Dad who has the moulding cutter, a big floor machine made of cast iron that can run miles of the stuff. Way easier if you can just re-use your old ones, but if you don't have old ones I wouldn't worry. You can make very nice doors, they don't necessarily have to have raised panels, but remember that you can always glue a layer on to do that.
It's fun to do and very rewarding for a long time to come, so take your time and do it right. Make sure all your cuts are sharp and square, all your surfaces are sanded smooth, and all your corners are smoothed. (except where they join of course) Take time on your finish, and add at least one more coat than you think you need. Maybe two. Or three. The cost of materials is minimal compared to what custom built cabinets cost, and the only other expense is time, which you have more than enough of.
Jim
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A good alternative to solid wood is 1/2? Baltic birch. Nice surface for finishing and with stain and poly gives a nice finish. A lot easier and cheaper than solid wood.
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I was furniture maker for a number of years, and we often used solid wood for facings and even doors. Unless a customer insisted on it, we would never build the carcass of a piece from solid wood however. We always used either furniture-grade hardwood veneered plywood or Baltic birch plywood. Solid wood has far too much seasonal movement to be used for cabinet carcass building, is too expensive, and is very time-consuming to work with.
Solid wood will generally change in width about 1/4" per 12" of width through the seasons, and unless the construction is done with proper expansion/contraction allowances there will be either cracking in the winter or buckling in the summer.
The reason most solid wood doors are made in a frame & panel construction style is that it gives room for the large panel to move (contract/expand) through the seasons. Very hard to do that with cabinet sides, especially if they are connected to a countertop.
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A good alternative to solid wood is 1/2? Baltic birch. Nice surface for finishing and with stain and poly gives a nice finish. A lot easier and cheaper than solid wood.
mine are made from 3/4" birch ply and faced with laminate.
The photo does not show the grey/beige wood grain.
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Here is an interesting article in the September 2014 issue of Bus Conversion Magazine on How to Raise the Roof on an MC-5. This will give you some idea on the work involved. https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/BCM-2014-09-Sep.pdf
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There are significant differences between furniture making and cabinetry and I certainly would not attempt to tell you how to do your trade. But 1/4" in 12"? With what, water maple maybe? Balsa?
No, the only reason is expense. If the wood is properly sealed the moisture content will not change and neither will the dimensions. What is plywood made from? A core made from softwood materials, that's what. Now are you seriously going to try claiming that softwood swells less when wet than hardwood does? The best cabinetry you can buy ALWAYS has hardwood facings and doors. Custom you can get whatever you want. Birch full cored laminate plywood is great for flat panel doors but any good raised panel door is built up of hardwood pieces. The reason the carcass is not built of hardwood is only one simple reason and that is expense and nothing else. Before these plywood laminates were available hardwood was the only thing that was used, and it was both more durable and more attractive. The only reason lesser materials are accepted today is because you don't have to look at them.
For that matter, the closest and tightest fit in any cabinet job is the facings, and the least tolerant of any changes. And you said yourself those were hardwood.
As for being hard to work with or time consuming? Only if your tools are dull and/or you aren't skilled in using them. Otherwise, just NO. Totally incorrect.
Jim
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Our house I grew up in in the past had all birch plywood cupboards, dressers,cabinets, drawers, etc built in. In all those years, no cracking, warping or peeling. We didn't have ac in those days, so humidity varied widely through the seasons. The panels weren't like plywood today but some kind of solid core with birch veneer glued to it. It came in 4 x 8 sheets.
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There are significant differences between furniture making and cabinetry and I certainly would not attempt to tell you how to do your trade. But 1/4" in 12"? With what, water maple maybe? Balsa?
No, the only reason is expense.
Jim
Not correct. I can get top quality oak, cherry, or maple at lower cost than I can get furniture grade plywood. What you're saying about expense is just wrong. I paid over $120 a sheet for the top quality hardwood veneered plywood, even more if a customer wanted a particular grain style like quarter-sawn or drift-sawn. I can get the solid oak itself for much less than that and did so all the time.
Solid wood moves. If you've ever seen a table top or door panel with a crack down the center, the reason is the builder didn't allow for the wood to shrink in the winter. If you've ever seen a solid wood door frame that came apart at the joints, then odds are the builder didn't allow for the solid wood panel inside the frame to expand.
I know that facts are a rare thing on forum sometimes, but here is a link to some:
http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/2_Wood_Movement/2_Wood_Movement.htm
Scroll to the bottom of the page to see exactly the numbers I was talking about. I didn't reference this page in my initial statement, that was from experience. However, it took me all of 15 seconds to find a page with supporting information.
The best cabinetry you can buy ALWAYS has hardwood facings and doors.
If you re-read the first sentence of my post you'll see that I said the exact same thing. Solid wood for facings and doors.
Before these plywood laminates were available hardwood was the only thing that was used, and it was both more durable and more attractive.
Also not so. Take apart a piece of quality made antique furniture and you'll find laminates and veneers. I've restored 100+ year old antiques which had sides & backs made from plywood covered in very nice veneer. This is nothing new. The difference was that the craftsmen had to make their own laminates if they wanted to use them - no going to the local box store and loading up the wagon. And, if the craftsmen did their job correctly people looking at the item would swear that it was made from solid wood.
If you open the lid of any Singer sewing machine cabinet, even the very nice and ornate ones from the 1800s, you'll see a great piece of veneer glued over smaller pieces of wood glued and laminated to make a single, strong, and durable sewing machine top.
Winters in Wisconsin has extremely low indoor air humidity levels due to heating and seasonal factors. In the summer the indoor air humidity levels can be exceedingly high. Our buses are no different - very low humidity levels in the winter and high in the summer. Especially for those that drive their buses to different parts of the country. Temperature swings in a parked bus can be well over 100 degrees summer to winter. People building their bus cabinets are welcome to use whatever materials they want. But, those that do so using solid wood will have to take steps to allow for seasonal humidity and moisture levels.
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just trying to help.
Baltic birch's core is unlike traditional plywood you may be used to seeing: the layers of inner plies are 1.5 mm-thick solid birch veneer, cross-banded, and laminated with exterior grade adhesive.
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/your-ultimate-guide-to-baltic-birch-plywood-why-its-better-when-to-use-it/
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Looks like my response was lost and I'm not doing it over. Sorry about that, it was good.
But relevant points then.
For base cabinets, yes a laminate is the best choice for the back end. I did not say otherwise. For overhead, hardwood sides are a valid choice and may be preferred for a number of reasons not the least of which is appearance.
Again, if the wood is adequately sealed the dimensions do not change. Adequately sealed means every surface is protected by an impervious layer of a durable finish thick enough to resist wear and incidental damage so that no moisture can pass into or out of the wood at any time. This is perfectly easily accomplished with common urethane finishes if done right. Most work is not done thoroughly enough, especially for bus service.
Note I also said I used hardwood laminate for the cabinet bottom. Why are we even disagreeing about this?
My entire point was to encourage owners to at least attempt the job rather than buying the cheap particleboard stuff that won't hold up. I don't care what you use, I just think it's pointless to start with something that will destroy itself in short order.
Jim
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I'll side with Richard when it comes to the behavior of wood. I have a background in Industrial Arts Education (a long time ago), and I was taught that after being exposed to different temperatures and humidity levels, wood does what it wants. Even urethane coatings cannot guarantee complete sealing under all conditions.
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Well like you Walter I also have a background in Industrial Arts but the behavior of wood products goes way beyond what they teach there and I've had a close relationship with wood and wood products all my life. Red oak is a variety with a well deserved and time honored reputation of standing up to an extremely wide range of conditions with strength and durability. But nevermind that. If you want sawdust, by all means use sawdust. And I'll continue to use solid wood when possible or desirable, oak when acceptable, and laminate when needed. At least solid hardwood does not delaminate. Bear in mind that the very large companies that make and sell composite wood products like plywood, etc have an extremely large vested interest in convincing the public that they are superior products. And for some uses they are. Certainly not for all, and in many cases they are abject failures.
Jim
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Well like you Walter I also have a background in Industrial Arts but the behavior of wood products goes way beyond what they teach there and I've had a close relationship with wood and wood products all my life. Red oak is a variety with a well deserved and time honored reputation of standing up to an extremely wide range of conditions with strength and durability. But nevermind that. If you want sawdust, by all means use sawdust. And I'll continue to use solid wood when possible or desirable, oak when acceptable, and laminate when needed. At least solid hardwood does not delaminate. Bear in mind that the very large companies that make and sell composite wood products like plywood, etc have an extremely large vested interest in convincing the public that they are superior products. And for some uses they are. Certainly not for all, and in many cases they are abject failures.
Jim
Plywood is not the same as composite material. Composite material like particle board and MDF are not what I am talking about. Plywood is made from layers of solid wood glued together in layers with the grain alternating. It is no more sawdust than that piece of red oak you're using.
I've spent many hours carefully laminating my own plywood when needed to make pieces. High-end furniture makers have been doing this for centuries. Well made furniture-grade plywood will not delaminate. It is more durable than solid wood, particularly when the proper adhesives are used.
Take the best piece of red oak you want, soak it in all the urethane or other chemical you want, and the moisture and heat will still take its toll. There is no stopping moisture from entering wood. You can slow it down, but you can't stop it.
If you look carefully at the coffered wood panels in the mansions built in the 19th century, you'll see that they are made from veneer over something else. Usually the something else was less expensive wood, but often it was an early form of plywood.
I was once asked to restore a friend's antique chest of drawers. Underneath the gorgeous veneer and carved moldings the basic carcass was built from hand-laid plywood.
All that said, I challenge anyone to show me a set of custom kitchen cabinets where the carcass and side panels are made from solid wood, no matter the price paid. They are all something stable and durable, but the only time I've seen solid wood used for the large flat surfaces was when it was done in a frame & panel setup, not just flat slabs of wood. Face frames & doors, but never the other hidden parts.
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Good discussion, even if it is off topic. No, I take that back, the original desire to raise the roof was to fit cabinets in better. Raising the roof will do that, and you don't bang your knuckles when taking a shower, if you go high enough. Jim needs to get a bus, raise his roof, and install the cabinets of his choice. Richard already has a quality bus that was put together by some of the finest conversion people that ever worked on coaches, and it contains just about every style of wood product. It has lasted for decades, and was made in Ohio. :)
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Do you know of anyone who has raised the roof just behind the drivers seat in the front and just in front of the rear cap in back? You could avoid the difficulty of the caps. One could weld some tubing on an angle from the lift point to the front and back respectively and sheet it. There would technically be two roofs: 1 being the original caps, 2 being the new angled roof. Does that make any sense?
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Do you know of anyone who has raised the roof just behind the drivers seat in the front and just in front of the rear cap in back? You could avoid the difficulty of the caps. One could weld some tubing on an angle from the lift point to the front and back respectively and sheet it. There would technically be two roofs: 1 being the original caps, 2 being the new angled roof. Does that make any sense?
Many school bus roof raises do exactly what you're describing, except most of them continue all the way to the rear. The usually start just behind the stairwell and add a tapered transition piece. Makes them look sort of like a GM buffalo bus.
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Many school bus roof raises do exactly what you're describing, except most of them continue all the way to the rear. The usually start just behind the stairwell and add a tapered transition piece. Makes them look sort of like a GM buffalo bus.
It sounds simple, but the details of blending in the roof line at the front or rear, and having it look presentable, are not so easy to pull off. There are many "schoolies" that have done this, but the results are not always professional looking. The problem of roof leaks will haunt a poorly conceived attempt. Just Google bus roof raise, and you will see many examples.
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Seems like a lot of work but on the older buses it was almost a necessity. A big part of why I never got into this sooner was that I wasn't really interested in doing that. (Although I could, and keep it indoors if I really wanted to.)
Richard, you can give up on beating on me, it should be clear by now that you and I will not agree in detail. I get it. You love plywood. I do too for appropriate uses. Believe it or not we agree on probably more than we disagree, and one place where you will never get me to agree is in saying that the exposed side of an overhead cabinet is an inappropriate use for solid hardwood. I'm sorry but you are just completely wrong about that. it is entirely appropriate. Not necessary, by any means, but not a bad choice either, and even a best choice in some cases, like if you don't want to laminate a strip of wood to the exposed edge or stick plastic to it. You want plywood there, go ahead. Far be it from me to try and stop you. BUT forget trying to convince me that hardwood is inferior to plywood. Ain't gonna happen. Put a chunk of both in a bucket of water and see which one comes apart first. What is plywood made from? Spruce usually? Nuff said.
I'm sure this is entertaining to some of you guys, but I'm getting tired of it.
Jim
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How about we just talk about roof raising. It's clear that we all agree that bus cabinets should not be made with particleboard, period. I watch the "after school bus" YouTube videos about roof-raising and was pretty impressed by the process. They didn't purchase caps but instead used sheet metal to fill the raised Gap. What do you guys think about that as a means of adapting the caps?
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JC -
IMHO, the time/money/effort you'll spend raising the roof could be better spent elsewhere.
Creating a Frankenbus from the original lines of a C3 could also drastically reduce the amount of parks you'd be admitted to.
Obtaining insurance for Frankenbus could also be a huge nightmare, since insurance companies run from vehicles with structural modifications from original.
Perhaps you could use your existing cabinet doors on the lower cabinets - in the galley, head, rear bedroom - and build matching, yet shorter cabinets overhead, like most conversions? (see pic)
Once you strip the interior to the bare walls (after you fight getting the restroom out!), putting 1" x 2" furring strips on the walls and ceilings then having the shell professionally spray foamed will make a HUGE difference in the noise level as well as the heating and cooling loads on the HVAC system you choose. Contact a Thermo-King dealer in your area to see who they use for the reefer trailers they work on, perhaps you can work out a deal the next time they're doing some spraying.
Spray foaming the ceiling and doors of the baggage bins will go a long way, too.
If you have to replace the floor, consider a sandwich with hydronic heating, but keeping the overall height to just 1" greater than stock - many folk have done that - and it still gives you plenty of headroom inside.
Just throwing ideas out there for you to ponder.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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For cold weather operations, if heating the bays is part of the plan, the heat radiating upwards from the bays to the coach floor is not a waste, the coach interior will benefit.
If there are bays that are intended to stay cold, the coach interior will benefit from the ceilings of those ones being insulated to defend against cold soaked floors upstairs.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Thanks for the response. I was looking at my bay doors today and wondering how you would spray foam the doors. Can someone jump in who has insulated the bays and let me know how you did so. Also, for those who have raised the roof did you all have trouble with insurance or getting into parks? This is something I hadn't considered.
JC -
IMHO, the time/money/effort you'll spend raising the roof could be better spent elsewhere.
Creating a Frankenbus from the original lines of a C3 could also drastically reduce the amount of parks you'd be admitted to.
Obtaining insurance for Frankenbus could also be a huge nightmare, since insurance companies run from vehicles with structural modifications from original.
Perhaps you could use your existing cabinet doors on the lower cabinets - in the galley, head, rear bedroom - and build matching, yet shorter cabinets overhead, like most conversions? (see pic)
Once you strip the interior to the bare walls (after you fight getting the restroom out!), putting 1" x 2" furring strips on the walls and ceilings then having the shell professionally spray foamed will make a HUGE difference in the noise level as well as the heating and cooling loads on the HVAC system you choose. Contact a Thermo-King dealer in your area to see who they use for the reefer trailers they work on, perhaps you can work out a deal the next time they're doing some spraying.
Spray foaming the ceiling and doors of the baggage bins will go a long way, too.
If you have to replace the floor, consider a sandwich with hydronic heating, but keeping the overall height to just 1" greater than stock - many folk have done that - and it still gives you plenty of headroom inside.
Just throwing ideas out there for you to ponder.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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The better strategy for hardcore insulating the bays is to forget the doors, and build an "insulated wall" that can be set in place and removed as necessary, just inside the door.
Most bay doors have horrible sealing, the sills are bent by previous "pole dancing", the doors aren't straight or square, the rain may stay out for the most part, but air intrusion past the hardened old seals will defeat your attempts to keep the bay warm.
Foaming the doors, and the rust that already lurks inside 'em, I've always felt uncomfortable about creating permanent wet places there.
Frame the space, the "access panel" just sets into place, can be left at home when climate conditions do not require them, design a way to slide 'em into a storage pocket, put 'em against the wall in another bay, lots of slick options.
a little trickery is needed to accommodate the door arms, for absolute maximum space inside.
As for the floor, the cost benefit of depth of insulation versus loss of bay height leads one fairly quickly to just laying a sheet of heavy plywood and calling it a day. You will be heating the space anyway, the plywood provides a decent thermal break with minimal loss of height, and whatever insulation you use is going to get wet. This way, if you leave the ribs open, your inner wall built just at their rise from the sill, the space under the plywood can breathe, and you can even keep the little spaces clear of dirt and debris with a blast of compressed air through to the other side..
Don't forget the waterbed heater trick under the water tanks during your build. Remember that craze, long ago? Pretty much never see a water bed being advertised anymore up here...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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I used the tin foil bubble stuff on the bay doors and tuck tape , used 1 " tin foil each side pink foam board with 3/8 " ply glued to the foam board with a maple noising at the front on the bay floors . on the underside of the floor the same 1 " thick foam + bubble stuff .
added 2 " spacer to the centre of the roof then 1 " spacer to the sides of the roof ( all in layers of ply wood on the ribs ) glued and screwed .
on the walls 1/2 " ply spacers at rids and 3/8 ply on walls .
under the ply I had the coach spray foamed
installed 1/2 " pex heated floor front to back with 3 zones ( lost 1.5 " off the finished floor , 2.5 " off ceiling ) lost 4 " total in height
you can't get to much insulation and I did this on the standard c3 height
dave
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Dave, is it toasty and warm now?
Jim
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the day I sold it and the new owner drove it home to THUNDER BAY Ontario Canada
the temp. when he left here was -17 cel. of -4 f and when he got to his home the temp. was - 40 cel or f
I told him he was NUTS to drive in that temperature but he said this is just a normal winter day
to answer your question yes it was a nice warm coach and as well it did not take much to keep it cool in the heat of the summer
I miss it as the coach we have now is not as good for insulation so we have to through more heat and a/c to make up the difference
dave
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So Dave
Would you recomend a diesel heater like a aquahot instead of electric? I have been debating what to do for heat. There are so many options out there it's hard to figure out what's best.
Jared
I used the tin foil bubble stuff on the bay doors and tuck tape , used 1 " tin foil each side pink foam board with 3/8 " ply glued to the foam board with a maple noising at the front on the bay floors . on the underside of the floor the same 1 " thick foam + bubble stuff .
added 2 " spacer to the centre of the roof then 1 " spacer to the sides of the roof ( all in layers of ply wood on the ribs ) glued and screwed .
on the walls 1/2 " ply spacers at rids and 3/8 ply on walls .
under the ply I had the coach spray foamed
installed 1/2 " pex heated floor front to back with 3 zones ( lost 1.5 " off the finished floor , 2.5 " off ceiling ) lost 4 " total in height
you can't get to much insulation and I did this on the standard c3 height
dave
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Jared -
Would you recommend a diesel heater like a aquahot instead of electric?
Why not be redundant and have both?
Two 1500w toe-kick heaters, one in the bedroom pointed forward, and one in the living room, keeps our 35' MCI snug as a bug in a rug when we're hooked to the powerpole. Virtually no maintenance, either, other than once per year pulling off the grille and vacuuming out the dust bunnies that seem to migrate inside. Not very expensive, either, usually under $200 each. Just put on separate circuits with their own circuit breaker. Additional units might be needed in the galley and head on a 40-footer.
An Aquahot (or one of it's competitors) can not only be used to heat the cabin, but additional branch circuits can be added for domestic hot water (thru a heat exchanger), pre-heating the engine, etc. These do require maintenance, depending on use, often more frequently than the electric heaters mentioned above. Can sometimes be cantankerous, too.
Redundancy can be a good thing!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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I agree with RJ - electric toe kick heaters are nice. We have three plus a small 500w baseboard heater in the bathroom. Great for when on power.
We have an LP furnace for other times, but I'd trade it for a Webasto any day.
As a third option, if you are installing roof a/c, you can add heat pumps for not much more and they are a great way to get rid of the chill.
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floor heat is a slow to heat system but because it is a radiant heat it last a long time .
I am having problems with the aqua hot I have now . If I were to to my own system again I would use a pro heat x45 boiler and a boat 120 v / heat exchange + a plate heat exchange for the engine heat . way less money then a rv diesel boiler but you would need to know what you are doing as it would be complex . or get a oasis combi diesel boiler and a heat exchange for the engine .
look at the boiler post
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33491.0
but you would need a fan forced heater or 2 for instant heat like a cozi heater
dave
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In the real cold, access to enough electric power to keep all the spaces warm, might be a problem.
How many bays will need some amps, then the rest of the coach's needs?
I did some fooling around with a cold coach and some heaters one winter, FWIW, if you let the coach go cold, it takes a lot of amperage to get it warmed back up.
A hydronic boiler can have loops into each bay, heat your domestic hot water, heat the interior and pre-heat the engine and/or generator, all for a few amps of burner blower and circulation pumps...
But, there's no free lunch, complexity and preventive maintenance come into play...
Back in winter 2010, I did this test: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/33190.html
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Yeah, and when the furnace goes down on a zero temp windy night, all bets are off. Conversions don't enjoy the convenience of night service calls like homes do. Even if they do, what are the odds of having the part needed?
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One of the many reasons I used a high floor transit is because of the 6'10" headroom (I'm 6'3"). Even with the hanging down roof A/C's, I don't come close. And even with the floor raising up in the rear, my shower is to the side and with the shower pan on top of the floor, the headroom is more than enough.
If at all possible, you should avoid a roof raise.
One of the best things to do is lots of insulation. I screwed 1x3 fir strips horizontally to the body ribs then had spray foam (a VERY messy job best for the professionals) to the edge of the 1x3's for 2.25" of foam. Good Luck, TomC
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Jim needs to get a bus...
YES! I do! Help me guys, that cheap D series with no rust, low miles and good tires within 500 miles of home is still eluding me!
Jim
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Help me guys, that cheap D series with no rust, low miles and good tires within 500 miles of home is still eluding me!
Jim -
Time to get pro-active!
Do a DuckDuckGo search for bus companies and transit agencies within your 500 mile parameter and make a list.
Once you've got your list, start calling them and ask for the shop foreman.
When you get him/her on the line, ask if they have any "D" MCIs coming out of service, or that will be soon.
You might just find a gem!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
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I feel embarrassed to even ask this but does the 102c3 have a wabesto or other diesel fired heater in the engine compartment? I keep reading posts on Proheat systems and I am getting confused.
floor heat is a slow to heat system but because it is a radiant heat it last a long time .
I am having problems with the aqua hot I have now . If I were to to my own system again I would use a pro heat x45 boiler and a boat 120 v / heat exchange + a plate heat exchange for the engine heat . way less money then a rv diesel boiler but you would need to know what you are doing as it would be complex . or get a oasis combi diesel boiler and a heat exchange for the engine .
look at the boiler post
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33491.0
but you would need a fan forced heater or 2 for instant heat like a cozi heater
dave
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I can't recall, do you have a 4 stroke or 2 cycle engine in your 102C?
The 4 stroke is likely to have a boiler in it, unless someone has pinched it.
I wrote a bunch of words on the topic a bunch of years ago, perhaps it will help your design thoughts?
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php/topic,3262.0.html
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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I have a 6v92ta 2 cycle. I can't decide if a diesel fired unit is worth it. I plan on plugging into a pole most of the time as my wife isn't big on camping as it is. I plan on using AC with heat pump. I have a 12.5kw generator. I have a Zantrex 3000 watt inverter. So what about those nights I while traveling where we pull over somewhere (Walmart)? What heat source will work. This is so very confusing regarding all these decisions.
I can't recall, do you have a 4 stroke or 2 cycle engine in your 102C?
The 4 stroke is likely to have a boiler in it, unless someone has pinched it.
I wrote a bunch of words on the topic a bunch of years ago, perhaps it will help your design thoughts?
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php/topic,3262.0.html
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Jc, get a propane 12volt heater and problem solved, especially if she likes to cook with gas, lvmci...
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You have a decent generator. You are finished.
So, now get it quiet and run it.
Electric heat. Add the hardware for an engine block heater...
Job done.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
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The only propane I have is for the stove/oven and my Suburban forced air furnace. Water heater is 2-10gal electric. Just to compare the cost, 2-10gal water heaters were $600, furnace was $550, propane tank (frame mounted) $200, plumbing and cut off solenoid (to control when I want the propane on) another $200 for a total of $1,550. Add in another $300 for electric engine block heater and still are under $2,000. How much is the complete AquaHot, or other like system-and how much maintenance do they have? In the 24 years my water heaters, stove, and furnace have been in, I've done nothing (except drain every so often) to the water heaters, and only replaced the furnace once. Good Luck, TomC
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I agree completely with you Tom on this one. How many propane furnace problems on this forum over the years and minimal cost for majority of issues. We've seen many Webasto issues here over time. They are expensive and costly to repair in most cases. I know many don't like carrying more than one fuel, but propane furnaces are pretty trouble free. The big pain for some is ducting. I wonder if you could plumb it through existing ducted ac units with controllable blend damper?
We had a Suburban propane furnace in our 4104 which worked fine for many years. Eventually upgraded to electronic ignition model. Only issue we had was no heat to bathroom due to duct access issues since it was on other side of coach. We also had over the road original coach heat. If I still had it, I think I would duct into factory ductwork.
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Tom
I've been reading a ton on this board about hot water heaters, bus heaters, etc. I have read many of your posts and ever time I read one of your posts on the various topics I say to my self "that makes good sense". Keep It Simple Stupid is what I keep telling myself. I think I am going to go with your setup. It seems like you have been happy with your hot water set up. I have three females in my family so I want to make sure I plan for enough hot water. As far as the LP heater, do you duct it? If so what heater do you have? I have a 40 foot MCI 102c3.
The only propane I have is for the stove/oven and my Suburban forced air furnace. Water heater is 2-10gal electric. Just to compare the cost, 2-10gal water heaters were $600, furnace was $550, propane tank (frame mounted) $200, plumbing and cut off solenoid (to control when I want the propane on) another $200 for a total of $1,550. Add in another $300 for electric engine block heater and still are under $2,000. How much is the complete AquaHot, or other like system-and how much maintenance do they have? In the 24 years my water heaters, stove, and furnace have been in, I've done nothing (except drain every so often) to the water heaters, and only replaced the furnace once. Good Luck, TomC
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I like the idea of embedded heat in the floor but two things trouble me. First, what size tube to use and how long of a run before it is at ambient? Making the tubes longer is no help if all the heat is gone after 5 ft. Secondly, to be blunt, leaks. If for instance the optimal tube length is the width of the bus that means am immense number of junctions. Although arguably a faulty or pierced tube could be pulled out and a new one pulled in if that were the case. Just laying a serpentine tube in a large zone seems a formula for failure. In other words, I'd like to see more detail on how this is done.
And on another note,
"Jim -Time to get pro-active!"
That probably deserves it's own thread, or maybe revive the old one.
Jim
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1/2" Pex would be my choice. One length per zone. I've done two houses with in floor heat. 200 foot length per loop. The temp difference between in and out is only a few degrees once the system is flowing at operating temperature. Pex, with Pex fittings and compression rings doesn't leak.
JC
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2cents - Optimal heating system depends on what's needed.
Radiant floor heating is very nice but whether it is best for a bus depends on the nuts typical use pattern. Radiant takes longer before providing heat. Electric is nearly instant, a webasto style is pretty darn quick.
If the heat is needed for prolonged periods of time then the added time radiant takes to warm things up does not create undue discomfort. If heat is needed for a brief time, early evening to tuck into bed then radiant may not be the best choice.
If always on the pole and not a lot needed maybe a simple Walmart room electric heater will do the job.
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Jc, tankless water heaters are great for hi water use, mine is propane gas less than 5" thick, tall and thin, by eccotemp. Several versions, even battery powered, lvmci...
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I threw away the stainless duct work in the bus. I could make some toe kick ducts for under the cabinets, etc.
I agree completely with you Tom on this one. How many propane furnace problems on this forum over the years and minimal cost for majority of issues. We've seen many Webasto issues here over time. They are expensive and costly to repair in most cases. I know many don't like carrying more than one fuel, but propane furnaces are pretty trouble free. The big pain for some is ducting. I wonder if you could plumb it through existing ducted ac units with controllable blend damper?
We had a Suburban propane furnace in our 4104 which worked fine for many years. Eventually upgraded to electronic ignition model. Only issue we had was no heat to bathroom due to duct access issues since it was on other side of coach. We also had over the road original coach heat. If I still had it, I think I would duct into factory ductwork.
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What Eccotemp model do you have?
Jc, tankless water heaters are great for hi water use, mine is propane gas less than 5" thick, tall and thin, by eccotemp. Several versions, even battery powered, lvmci...
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I actually got a 110AC model, got a 12V to 110AC cheap and can use it off battery power or pole power, takes some adjustments to get it right, but has been great. Power is used for digital temp, ignighter and rotating valve, very small power consumption, there is a 2D cell battery model! lvmci...
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I like the water boiler myself .
I have had a propane furnace and it worked good but was on and off a lot and made a fair amount of noise and went through a lot of propane
I tried the electric water heater but took way to long to reheat after only one shower .
we drive south in late December so most times it is cold and I like to have more then 1 option for heat and hot water . we do have a 12.5 k diesel genny but if there is a problem and it will not run then what ?
if I keep having problems with my 20 year old aqua hot unit I am doing research now as to what to replace it with .
what I would like to do is install a 95 % efficient home style propane tank-less boiler + a boat 6 gal. 120 volt heat exchange water heater for a heat buffer zone so the boiler will not cycle as much .
a simple manifold for the 3 or 4 different zones needed
60k-80k btu should be lots of heat to do heat and water heat and the cost for a good unit is not to high
all in this should be less then the 5k $ for a replacement diesel boiler
I was originally going with a diesel boiler but the price is to much and efficiency was crappy 60 -70 %
this way I would have more then one heat and hot water source if something were to fail
might not be your way but for me I like redundancy
ps on the MCI the infloor heat was awesome and in 10 years I never had any problems
dave
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With my propane forced air furnace, I wanted to keep all ducting above floor. When I built my kitchen cabinets, I made the kick plate 6". Now I had room to run the 4" insulated ducting evenly spaced. Starting about 10ft back from the front all the way back to the rear bedroom-installed 4 outlets. I have an Atwood that has the bigger blower (quieter) and electronic ignition. The main reason I replaced the old Atwood was I left it on and it ran continuously for 2 weeks-the blower motor didn't like that. Rather than just replacing the blower motor, I bought a new one since it had a larger blower that ran slower and electronic controls that prevents run on without ignition. If the unit doesn't sense heating, the blower will turn off in 2 minutes-hence I won't have the same thing happen again if I leave it on for 2 weeks. Good unit.
On my truck I'm using the biggest Suburban-mainly because they have the option of a small outlet only showing instead of the bigger inspection door of the Atwood. Good Luck, TomC
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Put a small short drip edge spout out from the exhaust port so it doesn't stain the side. Use stainless.
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Dave, I am confused. Can you explain what you did for your floor? Also, what did you do for the floor above the engine? Thanks
I used the tin foil bubble stuff on the bay doors and tuck tape , used 1 " tin foil each side pink foam board with 3/8 " ply glued to the foam board with a maple noising at the front on the bay floors . on the underside of the floor the same 1 " thick foam + bubble stuff .
added 2 " spacer to the centre of the roof then 1 " spacer to the sides of the roof ( all in layers of ply wood on the ribs ) glued and screwed .
on the walls 1/2 " ply spacers at rids and 3/8 ply on walls .
under the ply I had the coach spray foamed
installed 1/2 " pex heated floor front to back with 3 zones ( lost 1.5 " off the finished floor , 2.5 " off ceiling ) lost 4 " total in height
you can't get to much insulation and I did this on the standard c3 height
dave
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1/2" ply then 1/2" pex front to back 3 loops . went side to side with 7 " of 3/4" tin foil foam for support between the loops . no loops over the engine hatch .
metal 3" x 16 " pex heat transfer plates under all the pex . 1/2" ply on top of all .
dave