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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Jcparmley on September 19, 2019, 04:10:30 PM

Title: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 19, 2019, 04:10:30 PM
I have a 102dl3 bus.  I need to pull my Wabesto out of the bus and have it evaluated and rebuilt because currently it is not hooked up at all.  Since nothing is plumbed I was thinking about relocating it into my water bay which I believe will allow me to remove the rear ledge.  This would be great because I want to put my fresh tanks under the rear bed but also build a raised floor for the eventuality of adding full jakes.  The larger valve cover will be needed.  What would it take to move the Wabesto and is it a good idea?

Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on September 19, 2019, 04:35:12 PM
How do you plan to route your exhaust?

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 19, 2019, 04:49:16 PM
I was thinking down through the floor and out toward the back.

How do you plan to route your exhaust?

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 19, 2019, 05:31:08 PM
After I removed the 16 gallons of coolant from mine it was still heavy .
I slid it out the bay and used a floor jack to move it a round . So long as you can get to all the plumbing and you can find a good place to exhaust it and have the diesel line go to it you should be able to put it anywhere there is enough space

dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: richard5933 on September 19, 2019, 05:43:25 PM
If yours is/will be connected to the bus's coolant lines, you will have to choose a location that permits those connections as well. Or, have a path to run to lines to/fro
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on September 19, 2019, 06:12:49 PM
Lloyd Degerald can rebuild this for you.  He travels around to different RV shows. He will also be in Quartzsite in January.  Or you can ship it to him.  For his info go to www.lloydsrvheating.com. If his website is still down you can call him at 501.258.8426

He services my Aqua-Hot and about 100 others in Quartzsite every year.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: windtrader on September 19, 2019, 09:42:57 PM
I have a 102dl3 bus.  I need to pull my Wabesto out of the bus and have it evaluated and rebuilt because currently it is not hooked up at all.  Since nothing is plumbed I was thinking about relocating it into my water bay which I believe will allow me to remove the rear ledge.  This would be great because I want to put my fresh tanks under the rear bed but also build a raised floor for the eventuality of adding full jakes.  The larger valve cover will be needed.  What would it take to move the Wabesto and is it a good idea?
Good bus designers ensure placement of equipment enables as much balance as reasonable. Moving the house battery bank, generator, aux fuel tank, etc may create more uneven overall weight distribution. The Webasto doesn't weigh a lot but may want to add to list of considerations just the same.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on September 20, 2019, 07:29:42 AM
Better make sure you have adequate ground clearance under the bay. There isn't a lot to work with there and that pipe will cut it down by about 2-1/2" at least.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 20, 2019, 03:41:12 PM
Good point.  I did call Lloyd and I will ship it to him.  Right now the unit isn't hooked up at all and their is nothing connected to the exhaust.  It's current location is tucked up into bathroom "ledge" in the rear floor.  If I move it I can remove that entire ledge and build a raised portion for the Jake brake valve cover.  Is there any reason the unit was mounted that high?  I could just lower it and access it through the rear electric panel bay. 

Better make sure you have adequate ground clearance under the bay. There isn't a lot to work with there and that pipe will cut it down by about 2-1/2" at least.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: TomC on September 22, 2019, 08:21:10 AM
The only good location for the Webasto is the recycling circular file.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Geoff on September 22, 2019, 10:53:34 AM
As I recall, the Webasto mounting instructions say to pick a low spot to place the unit.  That is so the heater doesn't collect air in the coolant line.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 22, 2019, 03:18:43 PM
Hi Tom
I'm not sure I understand?

The only good location for the Webasto is the recycling circular file.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: chessie4905 on September 22, 2019, 04:55:05 PM
They are nothing but a headache and a drain to the wallet. Propane is very trouble free in comparison. The one thing some don't care for is having to have another fuel source.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 22, 2019, 05:20:45 PM
As I recall, the Webasto mounting instructions say to pick a low spot to place the unit.  That is so the heater doesn't collect air in the coolant line.


On my DL3 the Webasto is mounted above the engine ,it is lower than the radiator though and the exhaust is tied into the series 60 tail pipe. FWIW Webasto limits the length of the exhaust pipe so be careful with length and placement 600 F degrees is a bunch, I have seen the exhaust from the Webasto blister the paint on other RV's parked close by   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 22, 2019, 05:24:33 PM
Lloyd Degerald can rebuild this for you.  He travels around to different RV shows. He will also be in Quartzsite in January.  Or you can ship it to him.  For his info go to www.lloydsrvheating.com. If his website is still down you can call him at 501.258.8426

He services my Aqua-Hot and about 100 others in Quartzsite every year.


LOL Aqua Hots are great they never need servicing or give problems  8) 8).I never had a Aqua Hot worked on for less than $700 bucks x's that by 100 he makes some serious bucks
 
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Geoff on September 23, 2019, 02:28:23 PM
A Webasto mounted by itself and not inside an Aqua Hot is easy to work on.  But I had a learning curve with mine and spent a lot on parts until I had it all figured out.  I wish I would have had the factory testing unit from the start, I have one now and haven't had to use it, but it would have saved me a lot of time and money.

In any case, I love my Webasto when I'm camping.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: richard5933 on September 23, 2019, 02:45:20 PM
We had a Webasto on our 4106. Cost about $500 to have Lloyd rebuild/clean it. Ran like a champ after that. Wish we had one on the current bus, as it could preheat the engine while heating the interior of the coach.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on September 23, 2019, 04:52:28 PM
I did not plan on having a Webasto (Eiberspacher actually but close enough to the same thing) and expected to use a propane furnace for heating. I still am likely to install a propane furnace but it's great to know I don't have to. Plus I suspect my time between refueling runs will be extended by using diesel to heat with. I very much like the idea of having multiple options for heat. It wasn't difficult to clean up and get it operating, certainly worth the minimal expense and effort of wiring in a thermostat controller instead of a timer. I think I will like it but also think I will want to eventually re-plumb it with some control valves to direct the heat to the engine or coach as desired.

I think it looks like it could probably be moved down. I'm not planning to do that but I expect there is room, although I haven't looked with an eye towards doing that. I don't think it would be very heavy. It's mostly hollow and the stainless it's built from doesn't seem particularly thick. Provided there is room, it seems to me that lowering it would be better than moving it to a storage bay.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 23, 2019, 06:31:14 PM
That's a good point on lowering it instead of moving it into the bay.  I am still debating on wether to use it for heat in the coach.  I have a 420000 BTU propane furnace for the rear of the coach and I was planing on putting a tiny wood stove used in sailboats for the front half.  I mostly need to get the Wabesto hooked up for proper engine heat as that's how the series 60 was designed.  I'm just trying to get the factory mechanicals put back together.  I also need to get new fan clutches as mine have been bypassed and the fans run whenever the engine is on.  Lots to do!!

I did not plan on having a Webasto (Eiberspacher actually but close enough to the same thing) and expected to use a propane furnace for heating. I still am likely to install a propane furnace but it's great to know I don't have to. Plus I suspect my time between refueling runs will be extended by using diesel to heat with. I very much like the idea of having multiple options for heat. It wasn't difficult to clean up and get it operating, certainly worth the minimal expense and effort of wiring in a thermostat controller instead of a timer. I think I will like it but also think I will want to eventually re-plumb it with some control valves to direct the heat to the engine or coach as desired.

I think it looks like it could probably be moved down. I'm not planning to do that but I expect there is room, although I haven't looked with an eye towards doing that. I don't think it would be very heavy. It's mostly hollow and the stainless it's built from doesn't seem particularly thick. Provided there is room, it seems to me that lowering it would be better than moving it to a storage bay.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: windtrader on September 24, 2019, 07:45:28 PM
It'd be hard to convince me to swap out the Webasto system in my bus. It's basically central heating as there are ducts in different parts of the coach. Has connections to heat block as needed. Loop for hot water. Configured so each duct can be tuned for desired heat output. Thermostats and fan speed in each room for individual control in addition to flow adjustments for each zone.

Best part it runs diesel. Personally, propane is more hassle than just diesel only. One more place to stop. Currently, just running the stove top that hardly uses any. Running the refrig on propane goes about two weeks. It's used while on the road, between poles.

Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: TomC on September 24, 2019, 08:18:33 PM
Recycling circular file = trash can.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: chessie4905 on September 24, 2019, 08:28:41 PM
Your setup is nice, but are we talking 2 to 3 thousand dollars for the whole install, including webasto? Then periodic service and repair. Other than an additional fuel source, propane furnaces are pretty trouble free. Since you have a generator, you can run it to operate the block heater or plumb cooling system into engines system. If somebody is full timing it, I can see where a Wabasto or one of the other oil fired ones makes more sense.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: richard5933 on September 25, 2019, 02:26:54 AM
Your setup is nice, but are we talking 2 to 3 thousand dollars for the whole install, including webasto? Then periodic service and repair. Other than an additional fuel source, propane furnaces are pretty trouble free. Since you have a generator, you can run it to operate the block heater or plumb cooling system into engines system. If somebody is full timing it, I can see where a Wabasto or one of the other oil fired ones makes more sense.

Someone using the bus through the winter would also benefit from a Webasto or similar system. Running the generator to use a block heater means having to start a diesel generator in cold temps, which on its own can sometimes be problematic. Our 4106 used the Webasto to preheat the engine, and since the Perkins was tied into the main bus's cooling system it also could preheat the Perkins. If nothing else, I'd keep one around for that if I had the option and was doing a lot of winter camping.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 25, 2019, 04:26:47 AM
I installed the Propex forced air propane heater in the van the propane RV furnace used to much propane ,it is rated for 10,000 BTU but seems to put out a lot of heat on a gal of propane every 8 hrs and uses 1.9 amps for the fan
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 25, 2019, 04:44:13 AM
" the Propex forced air propane heater "

Look like nice units and not a lot of money if a guy wanted propane heat
My diesel home grown system works amazing ! very happy 

dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 25, 2019, 05:18:53 AM
" the Propex forced air propane heater "

Look like nice units and not a lot of money if a guy wanted propane heat
My diesel home grown system works amazing ! very happy 

dave


I have no choice lol I kept the factory furnace,the Propex will not raise the heat as fast the furnace it takes a little longer but does the job on less propane 
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: chessie4905 on September 25, 2019, 06:02:04 AM
If you use air ducts to your water bays for winter use, no reason you couldn't plumb a little heat to generator compartment. Enough to keep it to 40° to 50° shouldnt tax the system much.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on September 25, 2019, 07:06:45 AM
I'm not a big fan of the idea of ripping out one system to replace it with something else unless the first system is proven to be inferior or unrepairable. This goes for the OTR air as well as the webasto. The original system puts out something like 80K-90K BTU of heat and that should be well in excess of needs if it is all being used appropriately. But there's no point in heating the engine if it isn't going to be started. The stock MCI system gives preference to keeping the engine warm which was sensible considering the use of the bus. For RV use, flow to the engine needs to be shut off, which means installing at least one valve, which means draining the coolant. But after that's done you have a system that can easily keep the coach toasty warm, and has pretty even heat distribution if you didn't rip out the airflow ducts. For the most part they can be concealed behind cabinets and furniture. It also shouldn't be hard to duct some heat into the storage bays, the rear one has access to the main heater matrix.

It makes a little noise (not bad) and there's diesel exhaust to deal with, but it's convenient and pretty easy. Might even be feasible to duct the output of a propane furnace into the same airways.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 25, 2019, 07:15:19 AM
All it takes when using a diesel fired heating system are the small heat exchangers less work and takes less space than ducts.I had those in each bay of my Eagle and the fans have very little draw plus mine had a thermostat for each bay,this is what I use they come in all kinds of configuration's 1 to 3 fans .I have a dozen or more of these I going dispose of when I clean the shop out this winter   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 25, 2019, 09:23:31 AM
Got it, thanks for the translation.  I must have had a senior moment.

Recycling circular file = trash can.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 25, 2019, 09:34:23 AM
What type of thermostat were these hooked up to?  That I think is the route to go as each room and bay can have independent control. 

All it takes when using a diesel fired heating system are the small heat exchangers less work and takes less space than ducts.I had those in each bay of my Eagle and the fans have very little draw plus mine had a thermostat for each bay,this is what I use they come in all kinds of configuration's 1 to 3 fans .I have a dozen or more of these I going dispose of when I clean the shop out this winter   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: richard5933 on September 25, 2019, 09:50:35 AM
What type of thermostat were these hooked up to?  That I think is the route to go as each room and bay can have independent control.

Ours had 12v fans, and the thermostats were simple low-voltage RV style thermostats. I believe that the thermostat actually controlled a small relay located next to the fan, to keep from having the full current of the motors running through the thermostat.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on September 25, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
The auxiliary heating unit that came stock in the coach is there for a reason...

Northern operating busnuts will be cold inside the coach, and the engine will be running cold...

Nothing worse than deadheading an empty coach with one of the pre-emission 4 strokes...if the aux heater wasn't firing, you couldn't get to operating temp, and it was cold inside...

Fool around all you want, but make sure it remains capable of supplementing the coach HVAC, and the engine, when it's winter outside.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 25, 2019, 10:39:33 AM
My plan was to get the Wabesto working again so I have the engine preheat and bringing it the engine up to temp.  I was also thinking of using the Webasto to heat the coach while driving.  The PO unhooked the Webasto so it isn't working at all now.  That I know is not good.  Getting the engine preheat/heat back to the way it was designed is my goal.  My debate is how I want to do the cabin heat.  Either small heat exchanger or the large OTR heater core through ducts. 

Jared

The auxiliary heating unit that came stock in the coach is there for a reason...

Northern operating busnuts will be cold inside the coach, and the engine will be running cold...

Nothing worse than deadheading an empty coach with one of the pre-emission 4 strokes...if the aux heater wasn't firing, you couldn't get to operating temp, and it was cold inside...

Fool around all you want, but make sure it remains capable of supplementing the coach HVAC, and the engine, when it's winter outside.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on September 25, 2019, 02:55:50 PM
Unwittingly, busnuts turn the camper into a dank tube, with poor air circulation potential.

The stock HVAC handily takes care of air exchange, provided it is functioning as designed.

The stock HVAC is already there, nothing else to do?

Most busnut "aftermarket" solutions don't do the job in winter conditions, insufficient BTU, hot spots, cold spots, poor distribution...

Is my bias showing?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 25, 2019, 03:58:28 PM
Stock HVAC is fine when on the road but would be like a bandage on a elephants @$# from a mosquito bite  when camping,
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on September 25, 2019, 04:19:10 PM
That's my bias also. If it ain't broke... If it is broke fix it of course, but it'd be lots of hours and dollars to set up something that will work as well. Not to dis the individual radiators, that's actually fairly cool if you're building from scratch AND electrical power draw is always a concern. You could even go in for a set of the old passive cast iron room radiators if that was your thing. I'm sure there would be something modern that would work better.

But we've learned from central heating that that airflow is generally a good thing, just have to find a way to balance that against current demands. Plenty of ways to skin this cat though. Presently my thoughts lean towards a fairly inexpensive Variable Frequency Drive or VFD. You can get those on ebay for around a hundred bucks for about a 1-2hp drive but it can run the blower motor at any speed you want. Might have to swap out the motor for a 3 phase one... well this gets a little more involved. That'd work fine for shore power and you could cut your airflow down and even regulate it based on your thermostat, but then it wouldn't run on DC. The VFD converts input power to DC and then uses that to generate a 3 phase output but I'm sure the DC section is much more than 28v so tapping into the DC section wouldn't work either. That'd mean driving it off your inverter OTR, maybe not the best solution.

OK, maybe look at retaining the DC motor and using a solid state speed controller on that. I know they make such things but I haven't really worked with them so that would take some research. I expect I will look into it but not this week. It should be a viable solution though.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: windtrader on September 25, 2019, 05:42:57 PM
All it takes when using a diesel fired heating system are the small heat exchangers less work and takes less space than ducts.I had those in each bay of my Eagle and the fans have very little draw plus mine had a thermostat for each bay,this is what I use they come in all kinds of configuration's 1 to 3 fans .I have a dozen or more of these I going dispose of when I clean the shop out this winter   
Humm.. I used the term "duct" inaccurately. There are no true "ducts", heat exchangers with integrated fans are what pushes the heat into the space. There are water lines running from the Webasto to each "duct" or heated air outlet.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 26, 2019, 04:56:56 AM
I have and like these heat ex changers . They come in one fan 2 fan and 3 fan units and the fan is a muffin 12 volt that is quiet and uses very little power . all you need is 5/8" or 3/4" heater line to and from each heater so you can put them almost anywhere on separate thermostats

 https://www.parts.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/Heat-Exchanger-Cozy-III-EXE-103-0EX-EXE-103-0EX.htm


dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 26, 2019, 05:30:53 PM
Thanks for the link.  Where do you have these located in your coach?  Do you have any trouble with air flow or cold spots? 

I have and like these heat ex changers . They come in one fan 2 fan and 3 fan units and the fan is a muffin 12 volt that is quiet and uses very little power . all you need is 5/8" or 3/4" heater line to and from each heater so you can put them almost anywhere on separate thermostats

 https://www.parts.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/Heat-Exchanger-Cozy-III-EXE-103-0EX-EXE-103-0EX.htm


dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 26, 2019, 05:43:17 PM
Luvrbus

If you are thinking about getting rid of those old exchangers could I have them?  I sent you a PM but then I read on the forum that you don't check those often.  Thanks

Jared

All it takes when using a diesel fired heating system are the small heat exchangers less work and takes less space than ducts.I had those in each bay of my Eagle and the fans have very little draw plus mine had a thermostat for each bay,this is what I use they come in all kinds of configuration's 1 to 3 fans .I have a dozen or more of these I going dispose of when I clean the shop out this winter   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on September 26, 2019, 08:17:11 PM
Luvrbus

If you are thinking about getting rid of those old exchangers could I have them?  I sent you a PM but then I read on the forum that you don't check those often.  Thanks

Jared


I am going to rid myself of the exchangers but it will be later while I dispose of stuff when the cleaning starts,you can build exchangers yourself like a friend did he use automotive heater cores from a wrecking yard with muffin fans and told me he only spent 20 bucks each.Must work good for him he lives in Canada 
 
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 26, 2019, 08:31:59 PM
Clifford, if you don't mind, just let me know when you are getting rid of them.  It may be a while until I am at that stage.  If you don't need them I could really use them.  I appreciate it. 

Jared



I am going to rid myself of the exchangers but it will be later while I dispose of stuff when the cleaning starts,you can build exchangers yourself like a friend did he use automotive heater cores from a wrecking yard with muffin fans and told me he only spent 20 bucks each.Must work good for him he lives in Canada
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: chessie4905 on September 26, 2019, 08:49:08 PM
Red dot makes individual heater units also.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 27, 2019, 05:14:16 AM
heat exchange heating units

1 in bed room 1 fan unit

1 in crapper room 1 fan unit

1 in bath room 2 fan unit

1 in kit 3 fan unit

1 in living room up front 2 fan unit

1 in each bay in basement

all are on separate thermostats

when any thermostat turn on it turns on muffin fan,zone pump and boiler that cycles on and off as needed 

If you look in the pic you can see the heating vents near the floor 1 is a cold air return and 1 is the heat vent with the exchange right behind the vent . When the heat is on it heats up the floor in front nice on the feet as well

very easy to control heat anywhere and no cold spots   

dave   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 27, 2019, 05:22:04 AM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gpT2UzZBWKRAR8f4DB7su9mTV-nl7ibDeGFCBHued2yQ7mOceZx5ePe4i7wAYIHxi9hJRwkLVnDeJ3KC44BdOC0UIcoqxW8-stZA_8-k63K3uRLZ8Qe04VprrpzsoLtqipdJRhdkUoU7OlsiZoeRZ76ES5v0OuQb0kl3jG1YNgyMbMZOiG4VJoz4tVGzDMKMohGyZUhcesM-faYLbShDBz7x1v2N0_2Ija9bwNfiBH_40cqWpoL7b6UxqAMAiueidHi2ePy8I0XvsyixPLmSBRvHcBQvxjyL_rKMA_1tMUYnhFv-siS9QIDk6uzcMksx-prk20esbJ15gJ0QFm1xl1bp5jxdx9oamr5zoYA7EoqSt0nShZ8B_d5x_dnJYsHyDJ2oh6X5dfqg9kFNos7Oim-K3LLuOnbGMbKrCpoCLlAqx20Z1ZmhCCNGdQnHs4h4U-XFnv1ELkAEsrpMBq45EShgsaqPJclu4vN9IvKSV4vS0_yXxnr0OrUYVf1roQwtMvj5iEJR6AqkatyIyQo0C3OJNqLvxlkFVy3gsF8JxIaQT_geLhxyHjg2hjX1tLwzaGpfJN5DGkosgGpgy7Tz_fCmSgkpODDZCLtqywJ6jmJZ7RDYYgaUECxHMOLXuGTXgbUOniTj2UEsn-eGC9tEEfQZkfteqDRbEiVSSVd6OPx9NLEnefafExeFQgND1zYWKbrmOfsKJWXE-ICJR1hjLSX_h9YxtO3hTfNgJnGSe3eaU0wg=w638-h479-no
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 27, 2019, 01:55:17 PM
Sled head

Do you remember how you wired up a thermostat to turn on the fans, pump and Wabesto at the same time?  What type of thermostat did you use?  Also, did you have a pump for each heat exchanger?  What type of pump did you use?  Thanks for all the info, I really appreciated it.

Jared

quote author=sledhead link=topic=34313.msg393758#msg393758 date=1569586456]
heat exchange heating units

1 in bed room 1 fan unit

1 in crapper room 1 fan unit

1 in bath room 2 fan unit

1 in kit 3 fan unit

1 in living room up front 2 fan unit

1 in each bay in basement

all are on separate thermostats

when any thermostat turn on it turns on muffin fan,zone pump and boiler that cycles on and off as needed 

If you look in the pic you can see the heating vents near the floor 1 is a cold air return and 1 is the heat vent with the exchange right behind the vent . When the heat is on it heats up the floor in front nice on the feet as well

very easy to control heat anywhere and no cold spots   

dave
[/quote]
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 27, 2019, 02:41:44 PM
you do need to know what you are doing or call a boiler heating guy to help you . any thermostat almost to turn on a relay a long with everything else . I used the pumps as I already had them but it would be cheaper to use a zone valve system with 1 or 2 pumps . you can make the system as simple as you want and yes my system is a little complex but I have done this type of heating system for 20 years now on homes ,rvs , garages , commercial buildings


dave 
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on September 27, 2019, 03:01:25 PM
So does the zone valve system run off of 12 volt DC or AC?
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on September 27, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
if you go with 12 volt dc it will cost a lot more but if you go with home stuff and a small inverter you can save some money . my 12 volt pumps are $400 each and I have 4 of them but I used them from the aqua hot system I replaced .
https://www.amazon.ca/Normally-Electric-Actuator-Manifold-underfloor/dp/B07MCYL92H/ref=sr_1_39?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5rbsBRCFARIsAGEYRwcvXDVEFUQ3Nj5sXTuqbhPGpW9LVvjsVsiSGMn8uriLmke_hj9APusaAsgMEALw_wcB&hvadid=284264123896&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001114&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=12108281509574488802&hvtargid=aud-749511860819%3Akwd-297391893503&hydadcr=27400_9830481&keywords=heating+manifold&qid=1569622627&sr=8-39

https://www.amazon.ca/Manifold-Stainless-Radiant-Heating-PEX-M12-4/dp/B011W54YL2/ref=sr_1_6?gclid=Cj0KCQjw5rbsBRCFARIsAGEYRwcvXDVEFUQ3Nj5sXTuqbhPGpW9LVvjsVsiSGMn8uriLmke_hj9APusaAsgMEALw_wcB&hvadid=284264123896&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001114&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=12108281509574488802&hvtargid=aud-749511860819%3Akwd-297391893503&hydadcr=27400_9830481&keywords=heating+manifold&qid=1569623039&sr=8-6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-8EWK1Moh0&t=74s


there is a lot involved to do this


dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: freds on October 03, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
Hi Everyone

EBay has some military surplus 10KW Espar Hydronic 10 heaters. The only drawback is that they are 24 volts, but you can add a converter. The seller was originally asking $1684.00 for them but I talked him down to $850.00 for my purchase.

He then changed the price and it's still listed as $850.00 after I placed my order.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173978153882

Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on October 04, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
Designing a satisfying boiler system requires a lot of thought and doodling on note paper.

A handful of creative thoughts:

How to avoid temperature overshoot inside?

How to defend against short cycling the burner.

Control the interior air temperature?

Control the coolant temperature?

Domestic hot water loop?

Engine pre-heat loop? And the reverse? Using 2000 lbs of hot engine as a source of heat after a drive?

Generator contribute anything to the system?

Where and how to fill the system, catch the noisy air bubbles, room for expansion?

Defence against self destruction when it springs a leak?

Battery voltage or household voltage?

How long can it boondock before charging/plugging in?

A great exercise in creative engineering!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior







Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: freds on October 04, 2019, 10:06:29 AM
Designing a satisfying boiler system requires a lot of thought and doodling on note paper.

A handful of creative thoughts:

How to avoid temperature overshoot inside?

How to defend against short cycling the burner.

Control the interior air temperature?

Control the coolant temperature?

Domestic hot water loop?

Engine pre-heat loop? And the reverse? Using 2000 lbs of hot engine as a source of heat after a drive?

Generator contribute anything to the system?

Where and how to fill the system, catch the noisy air bubbles, room for expansion?

Defence against self destruction when it springs a leak?

Battery voltage or household voltage?

How long can it boondock before charging/plugging in?

A great exercise in creative engineering!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

All very good questions/trade offs, let me throw another one in there. Assuming you have solar and excess generation to your needs where to best dump the excess energy?

What is defined as a short cycle?

Also should you have a common coolant for everything with valves to tie in or isolate or have heat exchangers to isolate the systems, so a leak in one system doesn't affect the others?

My bus does have a engine heated hot water tank, but not sure if there is independent pump if the engine is not running.

 
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on October 04, 2019, 10:52:28 AM
By all means put in valves to isolate the coach and engine. A hot water loop isn't a bad idea either and rather easily done especially if you can use convection to move water in the hot water heater tank. (May be difficult) Don't go too small on the lines but big solenoid valves ain't cheap.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: freds on October 05, 2019, 05:17:21 PM
my 12 volt pumps are $400 each and I have 4 of them but I used them from the aqua hot system I replaced .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-8EWK1Moh0&t=74s

there is a lot involved to do this

dave

By all means put in valves to isolate the coach and engine. A hot water loop isn't a bad idea either and rather easily done especially if you can use convection to move water in the hot water heater tank. (May be difficult) Don't go too small on the lines but big solenoid valves ain't cheap.

Jim

OK, lots of great idea's on here and I especially liked that Sledhead/Dave engineered a replacement for a aqua-hot system.

My understand of such a hydronics system is that you have a heat reservoir that performs the following functions or operations.

1. Operating heat temperature is at or below 195 degrees for the fluid heat reservoir.
2. Via a heat exchanger the operating reservoir can be brought up to temperature by waste engine heat.
3. Multiple pumps move heated fluid from the reservoir to different zones to heat the bus.
4. Hot water on demand; is via a heat exchanger from a cold water source with an inversion valve to keep it from getting too hot.
6. Fluid heat reservoir is also heated from Wabesto style diesel fluid heater/boiler that turns on when temperature drops below set point of say 150 degrees.

My bus currently has a electric hot water heater that has an engine heat exchanger as a heat source.

Couldn't I create a poor man's hydronics system by re-purposing this water heater to be my operating fluid heat reservoir, by adding the appropriate parts and automation?
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on October 05, 2019, 06:09:16 PM
You've got it.

Hotwater heater makes a fine reservoir.

Use the power pole or generator to help make heat or redundancy for boiler failure.

Good for the solar power dump too.

Coolant boilers will only make 160 degrees. The engine will go to 195.

Running the domestic hot water supply up to a high temperature and using a tempering/anti-scald device gives you "more" hot water than tempering down the whole supply.

Beware of introducing feedback loops to the engine that will overheat it, if all the parts have reached full temperature, and aren't shedding heat from the coolant heading back to the engine... it's all lovely until everything is hot...

Study the stock HVAC control strategy, valve in the return...
I'd be inclined to have a NC valve, only needs power to facilitate block heating when shut down, and power is available to open when engine running and heating is desired.

Also fails safe to protect engine if something goes wrong with it all...

And if you are really slick... control all of this from INSIDE the coach. So many busnuts have to go outside and open many bay doors to change their configurations... In the rain, in the cold, on the side of the road, etc etc...

Quarter turn valves can have extensions put to their shafts and brought up through the floor into the bottoms of cabinets, under seating, etc...

Why does a busnut want to go out there?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: freds on October 05, 2019, 08:21:01 PM
You've got it.

Hotwater heater makes a fine reservoir.

Use the power pole or generator to help make heat or redundancy for boiler failure.

Good for the solar power dump too.

Coolant boilers will only make 160 degrees. The engine will go to 195.

Running the domestic hot water supply up to a high temperature and using a tempering/anti-scald device gives you "more" hot water than tempering down the whole supply.

Beware of introducing feedback loops to the engine that will overheat it, if all the parts have reached full temperature, and aren't shedding heat from the coolant heading back to the engine... it's all lovely until everything is hot...

Study the stock HVAC control strategy, valve in the return...
I'd be inclined to have a NC valve, only needs power to facilitate block heating when shut down, and power is available to open when engine running and heating is desired.

Also fails safe to protect engine if something goes wrong with it all...

And if you are really slick... control all of this from INSIDE the coach. So many busnuts have to go outside and open many bay doors to change their configurations... In the rain, in the cold, on the side of the road, etc etc...

Quarter turn valves can have extensions put to their shafts and brought up through the floor into the bottoms of cabinets, under seating, etc...

Why does a busnut want to go out there?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Great thanks for the feedback!!! Very much going to give this a go and hey will document it!

PS. Software nerd in my day job, fault tolerant stuff 365/24/7, been noodling away on home automation stuff lately, thinking off grid stand alone.

PPS. Any links to HVAC control strategy documents?


Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on October 06, 2019, 08:33:27 AM


LOL Aqua Hots are great they never need servicing or give problems  8) 8).I never had a Aqua Hot worked on for less than $700 bucks x's that by 100 he makes some serious bucks

Lloyd services mine in Quartzsite for $195 each year and that is basically all it needs.  If you are paying $700 you need to start using Lloyd for your service work.  Or quite trying to burn that used motor oil from your garage in it to save a few bucks Cliff.  ;D
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on October 06, 2019, 09:23:02 AM
Just wait, Gary. Your turn will come...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on October 06, 2019, 09:46:58 AM
in my system the hot water tank ( 11 gal. ) is elect 120 volts and boiler loop as well and yes you can use the 120 volt elct. to heat the heat ex changers inside the coach but if only on 120 elct. it will not last that long before the heat is gone . I use a 6 gal. buffer tank that the engine loop goes through as well as the boiler for extra capacity for the coach heat and I could hook up the 120 volt elec. to it but did not as it wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for heat . when driving the engine will keep everything nice and warm once the engine is  warmed up and when it is cold out I use the boiler to bring the engine up to temp. then the boiler heat will cycle off unless the engine temp. falls below 150 * f and the boiler will fire up and turn off at about 165*f . the hole time the boiler pump is running to keep the heat system going . I installed a timer and a small led light at the drivers seat so I can tell when the burner is firing . on our last 600 mile trip the burner only fired up for 1 hr and 10 min. in the 12 hrs that we were driving ( included 2 cold starts ) . most of that time was pre heat for the engine as my engine runs cool for a long time up until it warms up . then it is almost always 190 *f  - 192 * f regardless of hills or outside temps

pre emissions 3406e cat   

proheat x45 boiler


dave   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on October 06, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
Ball valves are a great option, inexpensive, and can have an extension that comes through the floor into a closet or other convenient location. Beats going outside, and maybe a tenth the cost of a solenoid valve. Worth considering.

Note, MCI has valves on both ends of the coach loop. Why? Has to be passive heat loss from the loop.

Take your existing diagram and pencil in your changes. Then trace out every possible way the coolant could go. Examine every possible valve combination. Look for any possible failure, particularly ones that could result in cross-contamination or leakage. Then diagram in hand, examine your coach to see how the lines can be routed and revise as necessary. Bear in mind not all proposed routings will be possible due to physical or fabrication limitations.

Your hot water heater has an electric element that puts out no more than 6kw and may be half that.

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on October 06, 2019, 10:12:20 AM
Just wait, Gary. Your turn will come...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

I will never have any problems with my system. I remove my Aqua-Hot once per year and completely dismantle it and reassemble it and put it back in the bus.  While it is apart, I clean and paint all of the parts so they are always in top running condition at all times.   ;D
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on October 06, 2019, 12:00:25 PM
I will never have any problems with my system. I remove my Aqua-Hot once per year and completely dismantle it and reassemble it and put it back in the bus.  While it is apart, I clean and paint all of the parts so they are always in top running condition at all times.   ;D

Right, and that isn't a "cost"?

It all "costs" whether you use ca$h or $weat, it all requires resources that could be applied to other things.

The$e $y$tem$ co$t, no matter what you do...

Lovely as they are.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on October 06, 2019, 12:42:06 PM
if you do a boiler system make sure you separate the engine antifreeze system ( a loop through the water heater ) and the boiler rv propylene glycol . you never want them to meet and on the engine side you want to install a ball valve on the feed and one on the return to the engine . this way if you ever have a problem you can remove the engine from the system . it is better to install ball valves on each end of a loop and on each side of all pumps . this way if you need to repair or replace any thing you shut off the ball valves and remove the defective piece without dismantling the whole system .

there are lots of stuff to teach you on utube before you begin

dave   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on October 06, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
Right, and that isn't a "cost"?

It all "costs" whether you use ca$h or $weat, it all requires resources that could be applied to other things.

The$e $y$tem$ co$t, no matter what you do...

Lovely as they are.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Buses cost money.  Anyone that thinks differently is delusional.  If you own a bus you need to have cash reserves to operate and maintain it.  The guy who used to own my Eagle budgeted $2500/month to operate my current bus.  I have met too many people that own buses that cannot afford to run them.  There are ways to save money but if you want the ultimate in comfort, you have to spend money on your bus.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on October 06, 2019, 12:59:17 PM
still way cheaper then air fare , hotel and rent a car and way way more comfortable

dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Van on October 06, 2019, 03:21:02 PM
Buses cost money.  Anyone that thinks differently is delusional.  There are ways to save money but if you want the ultimate in comfort, you have to spend money on your bus.

 Plenty of $1000.00 buses out there, look at all the money you could spend on comforts and fuel lol ;D Oh I noticed how ya didn't wave as you went by. ;)
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: freds on October 10, 2019, 02:56:04 PM
Hi Everyone

EBay has some military surplus 10KW Espar Hydronic 10 heaters. The only drawback is that they are 24 volts, but you can add a converter. The seller was originally asking $1684.00 for them but I talked him down to $850.00 for my purchase.

He then changed the price and it's still listed as $850.00 after I placed my order.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173978153882

Hi Everyone

Turns out there is two versions of the military surplus Espar D10 heaters floating around out there.

One that attaches directly to a generator and another for mounting in other vehicles. I obviously asked for the discount on the first type.

The second one comes with mounting plates, muffler and remote control box.

Anyway I have mine all unboxed which was a bit of an adventure in that each individual part was in a separate envelope include a single zip tie!!!

(https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/UnboxedHeater.jpg)

(https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/UnboxedHeaterMiscHardware.jpg)

I found a lot of manuals for this heater at: https://www.butlertechnik.com/technical_library/hydronic-10-d70 (https://www.butlertechnik.com/technical_library/hydronic-10-d70)

I also ordered the computer diagnostic interface and software; plus intake and exhaust mufflers from ebay.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Geoff on October 10, 2019, 04:36:53 PM
Are replacement parts available?

I got burned on a military engine heater the last time around that Fast Fred was promoting.  No replacement parts available.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: freds on October 11, 2019, 01:12:01 PM
Are replacement parts available?

I got burned on a military engine heater the last time around that Fast Fred was promoting.  No replacement parts available.

Yes I can understand that on a large military only development. This one is based on the Espar Hydronic D10 unit which is used in many different industries including marine.

They are not selling the D10 anymore but a newer M model that looks very similar.

The only difference is that this unit is 24V and they are also used in trucks so it wasn't a limited production run. If I find that things like the pump are only reasonably available in 12V then I will just add a voltage converter.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on October 30, 2019, 02:58:52 PM
Dave

I was wondering how your air flow is in your set up?  Where do you get the fresh air?  I am planing on taking out the OTR AC/Heat except for the drivers loop.  I tore out the floor and cleaned out all the ducts and fresh air return.  I plan on sheeting over the outlets with the floor.  I was planing on using 6 or 7 air to coolant exchangers for the cabin heat while driving.  I will have a flare plate exchanger connected to the engine coolan and the other to the Wabesto and pump.  That way the coolants stay separate.  My question is about the fresh air.  Some have suggested that there isn't good air exchange doing it the way I have planed and you suggested.  What are your thoughts?

if you do a boiler system make sure you separate the engine antifreeze system ( a loop through the water heater ) and the boiler rv propylene glycol . you never want them to meet and on the engine side you want to install a ball valve on the feed and one on the return to the engine . this way if you ever have a problem you can remove the engine from the system . it is better to install ball valves on each end of a loop and on each side of all pumps . this way if you need to repair or replace any thing you shut off the ball valves and remove the defective piece without dismantling the whole system .

there are lots of stuff to teach you on utube before you begin

dave
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Geoff on October 30, 2019, 04:22:08 PM
if you do a boiler system make sure you separate the engine antifreeze system ( a loop through the water heater ) and the boiler rv propylene glycol . you never want them to meet and on the engine side you want to install a ball valve on the feed and one on the return to the engine . this way if you ever have a problem you can remove the engine from the system . it is better to install ball valves on each end of a loop and on each side of all pumps . this way if you need to repair or replace any thing you shut off the ball valves and remove the defective piece without dismantling the whole system .

there are lots of stuff to teach you on utube before you begin

dave

Never use engine glycol in your interior heating system?  Don't combine the engine and interior heating together?  That sounds like Aquahot propaganda.  The ball valves to separate the interior coolant from the engine coolant comes OEM to work on the engine. 

I could describe how to set up a Webasto system (not Aquahot) that is more efficient and is able to only heat the interior OR the engine for fuel usage, or both at the same time, but not at this time around.

Do a search on this website for directions.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jcparmley on October 30, 2019, 07:56:13 PM
Geoff

I'm open to all options.  I need to have my Webasto rebuilt anyhow so now is the time to think about a different way to plumb a system.  If you could help me design a system that does all those things then I am all ears.  From what I understood from reading on this forum was that if the two systems (engine coolant/interior coolant) were not separated what would happen if you had a leak in one system?   Then both would be down, correct?  I spoke to a member on this site who has a system set up as I described using a flat plate exchanger to keep the two systems separate.  While traveling through Alaska he had a failure with the engine coolant loop and because his system was separated by the flat plate exchanger he was able to run the interior system and keep his family warm until he was able to fix the engine issue.  That to me seams like a smart way to set up a system.  Am I wrong or missing something? 

Never use engine glycol in your interior heating system?  Don't combine the engine and interior heating together?  That sounds like Aquahot propaganda.  The ball valves to separate the interior coolant from the engine coolant comes OEM to work on the engine. 

I could describe how to set up a Webasto system (not Aquahot) that is more efficient and is able to only heat the interior OR the engine for fuel usage, or both at the same time, but not at this time around.

Do a search on this website for directions.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on October 30, 2019, 08:38:46 PM
Separate them or run them combined, you'll find as many in both camps.

It's your conversion, do some reading back in the forums and pick your poison?

How often does the cooling system on your car fail?

How often will it fail on your coach? How much maintenance, or not, are you doing to the clamps and hoses? What quality of goods are you employing?

Your fresh water tank holds how many gallons? Your cooling system? You already have replacement juices...

A busnut is free to amuse themselves however they like.

If that involves living dangerously, or spending money on redundancy and separation, well, that's why this is a hobby, not a profession with an accreditation body.

Not sure this helps?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: richard5933 on October 31, 2019, 04:08:17 AM
The main bus heating loop and the Webasto heating loop do not have to be run in series with each other. That would mean that all coolant from the bus's loop would flow through the Webasto, and vice-versa.

Our 4106 had two main loops: there was the Webasto loop running to the air/coolant exhangers and there was the bus's main heating/defrosting loop coming from the engine which fed the OTR heating core and defrosting core.

Then there was the small loop that joined the two systems together. It had ball valve so that this connecting loop could be shut off (they were normally open), and there was a small Bosch water/coolant pump that moved coolant through this loop. I believe that there was also a small booster pump which helped move the heated coolant through the bus's system so that the engine would receive heat for pre-heat.

On the control panel inside the bus, there was a toggle switch for this Bosch pump. When it was turned on, water flowed between the Webasto system and the bus's system, transferring heated coolant between them. When it was off, each loop could still operate independently, and only minimal transfer between the two systems would take place.

The whole setup was very similar to what was used in my old wood shop to connect the boiler to the radiator loop. I was skeptical at first that the short overlap would be enough to ever fully heat the building's radiator, but it worked well.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: RichardEntrekin on October 31, 2019, 04:30:26 AM
This is a quick explanation on why Aquahot says not to run engine glycol coolant in their heating systems. Sometime in the early 2000s Aquahot moved their hot water heating coil from an external to the boiler copper tubing coil to an internal to the boiler loop. You get better heating for longer showers with the internal coil.

However, when they did that, they had to protect against potential contamination of the drinking water system since ethylene glycol can kill you if ingested. When they changed to the internal coil system they changed to running propylene glycol as the coolant.

Not trying to nitpick, but the thread is about designing and building custom heating systems, and one needs to be aware that if there is only one degree of separation between the hot water and the recirculating coolant, then it is prudent to use propylene glycol as the coolant. Propylene glycol is the pink RV antifreeze available anywhere. It won’t hurt you if ingested.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on October 31, 2019, 08:29:58 AM
If the water heater is part of the system this does make sense. If it is not then this does not apply. Much depends on the configuration. How are typical RV water heaters that include an engine coolant loop configured? Extra thick internal loop maybe? Just asking here. Probably prudent not to drink hot water out of the water heater. I got out of that habit as soon as I was aware of the lead issue. Might make sense to have a check valve on the water inlet to the heater.

As for routing, on the DL there is not much needed to convert to RV use. One more valve to isolate the engine loop and a bit of re-plumbing, I believe is all it takes. As it stands circulation is always through the engine and the coach can be isolated (no heat). You want it the other way around, or better still for cold climates, the ability to isolate either. Doesn't take much to do that once the coolant has been drained.

Jim

Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Geoff on October 31, 2019, 11:06:38 AM
Geoff

I'm open to all options.  I need to have my Webasto rebuilt anyhow so now is the time to think about a different way to plumb a system.  If you could help me design a system that does all those things then I am all ears.  From what I understood from reading on this forum was that if the two systems (engine coolant/interior coolant) were not separated what would happen if you had a leak in one system?   Then both would be down, correct?  I spoke to a member on this site who has a system set up as I described using a flat plate exchanger to keep the two systems separate.  While traveling through Alaska he had a failure with the engine coolant loop and because his system was separated by the flat plate exchanger he was able to run the interior system and keep his family warm until he was able to fix the engine issue.  That to me seams like a smart way to set up a system.  Am I wrong or missing something?

The engine coolant loop on an RV water heater is simply an aluminum pipe welded to the OUTSIDE of the water heater, so there is no chance the glycol is going to get into your fresh water.  Only people like Aquahot use a heat exchanger to heat the fresh water and they run separate systems because of this.  Same for the engine preheating-- another heat exchanger.

Anyway, I not only have the engine/Webasto loop to heat water; but my heater is also electric and propane.  I don't like the complexity of an Aquahot.  You can do everything an Aquahot does with a Webasto much easier.
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on October 31, 2019, 02:41:19 PM
very hard to ex plane but how I did it was from eng .to ball valve to preheat pump ( on only to preheat eng. ) to ball valve to marine 6 gal. water heater loop to ball valve back to eng.

I use the 6 gal. water heater as a buffer tank for Propylene glycoll to hold the heat in the system and to add enough propylene glycoll so the boiler does not short cycle .

proheat boiler out to ball valve to 11 gal. marine hot water tank loop to 6 gal. w/h tank above ( buffer tank ) then ball valve and back to proheat

clear as mud right

pic shows buffer tank on top with domestic 11 gal w/h tank under and boiler in front


the 11 gal w/h tank is my domestic hot water tank     
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: Jim Blackwood on November 01, 2019, 06:33:27 AM
Clearly you should just throw money at it. All that shiny stainless is sure to impress. But where is the rationale for extra fancy heat exchangers? Are they not just as likely to spring a leak as a tube welded inside a hot water tank? To be honest I'm less than impressed with the way RV hot water heaters are made. Sure they work, but they seem to be barely a step beyond the old external coil units with the cast iron gas burner. After driving for hours you might have shower water but that little external loop is never going to heat your interior. So how about something custom made, and since it's in a bus and there's plenty of room, size is no concern. Just to make sure it's obvious if the coolant gets into the drinking water it's probably best to use oil as the heat transfer medium. That way it'll really be noticeable if there's a leak. Hey, motor oil ought to work fine, right? Better yet, it can be run anywhere from atmospheric pressure to about 15psi while the water tank is held to about 60psi so if there is a leak it'll go the other way. What? You're already doing that? Well maybe the antifreeze will migrate in there anyway. Hell, maybe it'll creep over the outside of the bus to get in the fresh water tank through a vent or something. Let's just Rube Goldberg the Hell out of it, what do you say? Make a big insulated stainless enclosure with a big ole coil inside with an oil bath around about a 60 gallon water tank, that way the engine coolant can transfer heat to the oil then to the water. Might even get enough heat transfer that way to run a pump and send the water through a bunch of passive radiators in the coach. In fact, let's just go passive all the way and use convection flow. The pipes will have to be a lot bigger but what the heck, there's plenty of room, right? Sheesh. I can't believe some of the things I see. What's wrong with a simple fireplace, am I right? Hey, it worked for Gramps...

No, seriously though I hope y'all got a laugh out of that, but if you want a completely safe system some of that does make sense. Use pressure differences and an inert fluid to transfer your heat, and keep it simple. A coiled tube has no weld seams to leak. But you can very quickly go overboard with this stuff. If your water system maintains 60psi and your engine coolant never goes over 15 psi, how is antifreeze ever going to get into the drinking water? Scratch that, shower water. Put a check valve in the water heater inlet and it'll never get close to the drinking water. Maybe you could keep the antifreeze and the drinking water at opposite ends of the bus and just transfer heat by osmosis. How hard can it be?

Jim
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: buswarrior on November 01, 2019, 08:11:40 AM
And remember the root of all this was to scavenge "free" heat from the engine while driving earlier in the day...

And it went from there...

This is complicated subject, with many variables and does not lend itself well to the typed words in a forum.

Don't even dream of raising it on the fools' social media...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: luvrbus on November 01, 2019, 08:55:17 AM
You can do about anything with a Webasto or ProHeat boiler hot water with the little March pumps and aqua stats for less than a 100 bucks,you are not sending a man to moon 
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: sledhead on November 01, 2019, 03:09:09 PM
Clearly you should just throw money at it. All that shiny stainless is sure to impress. But where is the rationale for extra fancy heat exchangers? Are they not just as likely to spring a leak as a tube welded inside a hot water tank? To be honest I'm less than impressed with the way RV hot water heaters are made. Sure they work, but they seem to be barely a step beyond the old external coil units with the cast iron gas burner. After driving for hours you might have shower water but that little external loop is never going to heat your interior. So how about something custom made, and since it's in a bus and there's plenty of room, size is no concern. Just to make sure it's obvious if the coolant gets into the drinking water it's probably best to use oil as the heat transfer medium. That way it'll really be noticeable if there's a leak. Hey, motor oil ought to work fine, right? Better yet, it can be run anywhere from atmospheric pressure to about 15psi while the water tank is held to about 60psi so if there is a leak it'll go the other way. What? You're already doing that? Well maybe the antifreeze will migrate in there anyway. Hell, maybe it'll creep over the outside of the bus to get in the fresh water tank through a vent or something. Let's just Rube Goldberg the Hell out of it, what do you say? Make a big insulated stainless enclosure with a big ole coil inside with an oil bath around about a 60 gallon water tank, that way the engine coolant can transfer heat to the oil then to the water. Might even get enough heat transfer that way to run a pump and send the water through a bunch of passive radiators in the coach. In fact, let's just go passive all the way and use convection flow. The pipes will have to be a lot bigger but what the heck, there's plenty of room, right? Sheesh. I can't believe some of the things I see. What's wrong with a simple fireplace, am I right? Hey, it worked for Gramps...

No, seriously though I hope y'all got a laugh out of that, but if you want a completely safe system some of that does make sense. Use pressure differences and an inert fluid to transfer your heat, and keep it simple. A coiled tube has no weld seams to leak. But you can very quickly go overboard with this stuff. If your water system maintains 60psi and your engine coolant never goes over 15 psi, how is antifreeze ever going to get into the drinking water? Scratch that, shower water. Put a check valve in the water heater inlet and it'll never get close to the drinking water. Maybe you could keep the antifreeze and the drinking water at opposite ends of the bus and just transfer heat by osmosis. How hard can it be?

Jim


I tried the quote but lost the post sorry

Jim

this is a very simple system as far as hydronic heat goes . I did not include how the inside coach heat works as that is more completed .
marine water heaters have been used by boat and rv people for years with very little problems and the cost is very low and the ones I used are all aluminum . the anti freeze can not get to the fresh water unless both water heaters fail at the same time . any heat exchanger can fail
maybe the best heater and cheapest would be a 120 volt cube heater but I am not on a poll all the time . my cost on the complete system including the coach heat was only approx. $3800 for all new . to me it was cheap compared to any other hydronic system on the market today

dave   
Title: Re: Relocating Wabesto
Post by: chessie4905 on November 01, 2019, 03:21:59 PM
Or 1000 hours of generator time with electric heat. Or propane furnace and 1000 lbs of propane.