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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Lin on February 04, 2008, 05:38:58 PM

Title: Rear brake shoes
Post by: Lin on February 04, 2008, 05:38:58 PM
I am having some serious brake work done.  Among other things, I was planning to have the rear linings changed.  I got most all the parts from Luke.  Even though he is across the continent, it seems to turn out that he remains a better source than anything I've found closer.  The only thing that did not come from him was the rear linings.  In talking to Luke today, he mentioned that I should make sure that the linings are the right composition.  I had no idea that there was a choice.  After giving him the part number, he was able to tell me that the ones I have are a very aggressive composition that was made for transit use and would unneccessarily wear my drums in highway use.  Now this is the question: There is plenty of lining left on the old ones, and I was changing them due to oil leakage.  Does it make sense just to reuse the old linings, should I use these new ones anyway with the thought that they may wear more but have improved stopping, or should I get new highway linings?
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: buswarrior on February 04, 2008, 06:06:41 PM
How many miles are you going to drive?

Luke is right, but you have to decide on the relevance part.

By the time a busnut wears out a set of brakes, years/decades down the road, the drums may be to an age and condition that you'll want fresh ones anyway. Many fleets are not cutting drums anymore, there is no savings over buying new. A couple of bucks for the scrap, and the decision is made.

Lin, if you don't mind, share some round numbers for your parts, lots of folks are unnecessarily afraid of the costs.

For most of us, brake parts are not expensive, (provided you don't walk in someplace and declare you don't know what you are doing...) you'll be shocked to find that in some places you pay more for a rear drum on a 1 ton pick-up than for a drum for your bus.

If you pay a shop to have it done, proper job, including all the proper bits and pieces and wheel end disassembly and fresh seals, the big ticket comes from the labour and shop rate. Do it yourself with a busnut friend, and it will cost you some BBQ and liquid refreshments for a day's worth of "get' r' dun"

There was recent thread about re-using contaminated linings, with some spirited discussion. You may want to read it before making a decision.

happy coaching!

Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: NJT 5573 on February 04, 2008, 07:34:34 PM
Lin, if you have new drums use new shoes. I would pick the softest shoes, they will wear faster but you won't wear them out for a long time and should stop faster when cold. I'm not familiar with the contamination issue or aware of anything in DOT Regs that prevents reuse of a cleaned up brake shoe if you do your own work. If you are running the old drum I would reuse the old shoes especially because they are seated to that drum and to reseat a new shoe will probably take many miles.
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: Lin on February 04, 2008, 09:15:45 PM
Some round numbers on brake parts:

     DD3 chambers-485 each
     set of front linings- 125 for both sides with bolts
     front oil seals- 37 each
     rear linings- about 160 both sides with bolts

     We are also doing some bearings, races, and slides ( I think that's what it's called) but I do not have the prices handy on these).  I am not doing it myself.  I am having a neighbor truck mechanic do it.  His philosophy seems to be that I might as well change some parts before they go bad.  If done right with good parts, the work should last far longer than I will have the bus.  Therefore we definitely replace the outer bearing that he says is iffy, but also change the inner one so I should never have any problem with that axle.  Since, as mentioned, the labor is the biggest item on the ticket, we hope to pay for that only once.  As you can see, the DD3 chambers are the real parts hit.  I suppose we could have used this opportunity to switch to 30/30 pots, but decided not too.  Also, my old chambers could have been rebuilt, but I guess we were going on the theory of taking the hit now and avoiding future surprises since neither I not the mechanic have any experience with DD3 chambers.  Again, I am hoping this will be another example of do it now and be done with it forever.
     We have also spent between 150 and 200 on hoses.  The whole system was really in terrible shape, so I am going to say that we will have spent around $3000. or more on brakes before we're done.  Obviously this is a lot of money that I hope will be paying for years of totally dependable service.  It is also a lot less money than bumping into something.  I would much rather spend the money on some luxury item, but sometimes necessities are more important.
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: skihor on February 05, 2008, 03:44:52 AM
I had to replace the drums on the rear of our '67 MCI 5A. Someone had overtightened the lug nuts and the first trip I sheared/stripped off over half of them. SCARY. When I pulled the drums they were WELL beyond service limits for turning, ( close to .200 to clean them up), and badly heat fractured. I think the PO did the brake job himself. Any way I bought new drums, bearings, seals, studs, thimbles, and lugnuts for $325. That was for both sides, and included pressing the new studs into both drums. The linings were near new with no oil contamination. I did have to adjust them several times, as the shoes wore into the new drums. This was 3 1/2 years ago. I got the parts @ jobber cost in Portland, Oregon @ Otts Friction Supply. http://www.ottsfrictionsupply.com/ (http://www.ottsfrictionsupply.com/)

Don & Sheila
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: Stan on February 05, 2008, 05:31:24 AM
Don: I don't quite understand what you mean when you say the dealer pressed the studs into the drum. The wheel studs are in the hub and the drum is held onto the hub with flat head screws. Did you replace the whole hub when you did the brakes?
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: belfert on February 05, 2008, 05:42:09 AM
I wish my brake parts were as inexpensive as some folks have posted.  The price on one rear brake drum for my bus is $315.  I have Q brakes and the drums are not turnable.  I believe mine were well beyond turning anyhow.

Some of the brake drums ordered from MCI didn't fit even though MCI insisted the part number was right.  The right drums had to be shipped from Chicago.

Yes, some of the parts for a Dina are expensive, but even with new wheel bearings, brakes, radiator core, and labor I'm still at about 2/3s of what a 102DL3 shell would have cost me at the time.  And that 102DL3 probably would have needed some of the same repairs.
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: rv_safetyman on February 05, 2008, 06:12:56 AM
I got my rear linings locally.  I am not sure what level of hardness I got, but they squeal like crazy.  My guess is that I got hard linings like that intended for transit.

Selecting replacement linings appears to be a bit complicated (http://www.heavydutytrucking.com/2002/07/048a0207.asp).  Bendix offers a large variety of brake linings.  If you want to make your head spin, look at their detailed brochure (http://www.bendixvrc.com/itemDisplay.asp?documentID=4314).

While I am at it, I highly recommend that you download the Bendix Air Brake Handbook (http://www.bendixvrc.com/itemDisplay.asp?documentID=4631).  It is a great reference document.

When I get caught up on some other projects, I am going to order new linings from Jefferson Bus so that I have what was used in the original application.

Anyone have any experience with the cause of squealing brakes?


Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: Stan on February 05, 2008, 07:37:02 AM
Jim: I haven't read the Bendix recommendations but the advice given to me was that the original linings were a compromise of long life with adequate braking. As a motorhome, long life is less of a factor and softer lining gives better braking.
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: Lin on February 05, 2008, 01:15:58 PM
Just to update and throw another consideration into the mix.  I spoke to a neighbor who runs about 6 or 8 mostly gravel trucks here.  He says he uses the semi metallic shoes because they give better braking and are much less likely to glaze when hot.  He gladly accepts the extra drum wear in exchange for safety coming down the hills.
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: skihor on February 06, 2008, 09:47:41 AM
Don: I don't quite understand what you mean when you say the dealer pressed the studs into the drum. The wheel studs are in the hub and the drum is held onto the hub with flat head screws. Did you replace the whole hub when you did the brakes?
Stan you are right. I used the old hubs w/ new bearings, races, and seals.

Don & Sheila
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: TomC on February 07, 2008, 09:03:23 AM
Just like tires there are brake linings made for your specific braking needs.  For instance, on my truck I had installed brakes that work well when cold since I was doing cross country driving and many times didn't touch the brakes for over an hour.  I know on my transit bus, they have transit type linings that are very hard and heat resistant.  This means in the morning, the brakes need to be warmed up before they work well-they always work, just work better when warm.  I know that some of the linings made are for transit stop and go, in city pickup and delivery, on/off road dusty conditions, in rainy conditions (picture multiple pads per lining), etc.  I would suggest you use what is referred to as a softer lining or one that is most effective when cold for maximum braking immediately.  Good Luck, TomC
Title: Re: Rear brake shoes
Post by: gumpy on February 07, 2008, 06:27:20 PM
Not to throw another wrench into your plans, and excuse me if I missed something, but I just didn't want to read all the replys, but it seems you didn't buy new drums. Are you planning on using the old ones? If so, then you need to have them turned, and you shouldn't buy new shoes until you know what size the drums end up after turning. It does make a difference.