BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: chazwood on March 05, 2008, 05:25:06 AM
-
Greetings.
In short, an inverter allows you to switch back and forth between 24v and 110 or 220v. Right?
If that's correct, it would seem to me that all the switching between voltage would occur at the box and nearby inverter and only one wire would still feed each appliance. No?
-
No actually... Maybe you should ask WIKI ....
An Inverter electronically generates a higher voltage using a lower voltage power source.
A d.c. Voltage is taken and electronically translated to a higher voltage A.C. voltage.
" Direct Current " to " Alternating Current "
A "Converter" Takes a high voltage A.C. source and converts it to a D.C. Voltage.
-
So inverters are not used unless you have a bank of house batteries?
-
If I understand your question correctly (which is doubtful), you run three wires (hot, neutral and ground) from the breaker panel (very similar to house wiring, but not exactly). All the switching takes place in the shore/gen transfer switch and internally in the inverter.
-
part of asking an intelligent question.....is having intelligence.
What I'm wondering is how do you go from watching tv on the road to watching plugged into a pole.
-
Chaz,
Most of us use what is referred to as a ""pass through" inverter. When AC power is available (Shoreline or Generator), the power passes through the inverter. The inverter uses a little of this power to charge the house batteries. If no AC power is coming into the inverter, the inverter draws DC power from the house batteries (12 or 24 volts DC, depending on inverter model) and converts this DC power to AC @ 120 volts. You have to be careful when wiring the AC system because if you feed the inverter AC outpout back into the same circuit as the inverter AC input, you will let all the smoke out of the inverter. And we all know what happens when we let the smoke out.
The simplest way to wire is to have the shoreline and generator feed a transfer switch. The output from the transfer switch feeds the main AC load center. Individual circuit breakers feed all circuits that are NOT powered by the inverter. In addition 1 circuit breaker feeds the AC input to the inverter. The AC output from the inverter goes to a separate load center. This load center circuit breakers feed all circuits that are powered by the inverter. This is "my way", I am sure there are other ways to "skin this cat".
The other option is a small inverter that is located near an appliance such as a TV that has an outlet built into it. The TV is then either plugged into the inverter or into a "standard" outlet. Jack
-
...........I just let the smoke out of my head. >:( If the system uses a bank of batteries the gen must be to just keep batteries topped off? In planning for buried wires for all appliances, is it safe to wire everything to a fuse box like a house, and then invert-convert-extrovert-pervert-red-alert the voltage from there?
-
"And we all know what happens when we let the smoke out."
Jack, that was a classic! I will use it!
Jack
-
Chaz,
I am sure there are other ways to "skin this cat".
The other option is a small inverter that is located near an appliance such as a TV that has an outlet built into it. The TV is then either plugged into the inverter or into a "standard" outlet. Jack
>
>
;D
-
...........I just let the smoke out of my head. >:( If the system uses a bank of batteries the gen must be to just keep batteries topped off? In planning for buried wires for all appliances, is it safe to wire everything to a fuse box like a house, and then invert-convert-extrovert-pervert-red-alert the voltage from there?
The genset is to keep batteries charged and power items that use to much power to run off inverter(s). You cannot run air conditioners off an inverter when parked (bus engine not running). Well, you can't run them very long! Also make sure you do not feed inverter Out back into Inverter IN AC circuits. Jack
-
So. if you're planning to boon dock for a few days in a hot climate how do you handle round the clock air conditioning requirements? Run a gen full time? seems kinda loud.
-
Chazwood,
There are several ways it all comes down to buget and personal choices :)
1. Run an extension from the generator exhaust to the top of the roof line on the bus. (there are kits for this)
2. Install solar panels (done right it will cost some money)
3. If you will be in low humidity consider replacing one ac with a swamp cooler style. (lower power draw)
4. Have a big ice chest full of ice and keep a ice towel wrapped around your neck.
5. Just be hot and misirable and ask "Are we having fun yet?"
Just trying to be helpful :)
Skip
-
So. if you're planning to boon dock for a few days in a hot climate how do you handle round the clock air conditioning requirements? Run a gen full time? seems kinda loud.
If you want air conditioning 24/7, Yes. We have found, even in south Florida, that at night the temps drop into the 70s. We turn off the Generator, open the bedroom windows, and turn on a ceilinf fan over the bed (fan funs off the inverter). comfortable sleeping.
The other thing is to have some soundproofing around your generator. This can be a factory "quiet box" or build by you. A vertical stack also helps reduce the noise level. Jack
-
is it safe to wire everything to a fuse box like a house, ....?
With one notable exception. You must run separate three wires (off a single 120 volt breaker) for each duplex receptacle. You cannot split the receptacle with a red-white-black (off a dual 240 volt breaker) as is used on kitchen counters in a house.
Fuse boxes are pretty much obsolete for house type wiring. Use a single phase breaker panel. I have seen comments that the "code" restricts the number of breakers you can have in a RV. That makes no sense to me, to say it is safer to have two receptacles on one breaker than to have each on a separate breaker.
-
I have my bus wired very simply using Square D circuit breaker boxes from Home Depot. I have three boxes. First is the main box that has four 50 amp breakers-two for the generator and two for the land line. I made a plate that slides allowing only two of the breakers to be on at a time to assure not mixing the land line with the generator by mistake. The second box is the circuits I want running straight off the land line or generator. This box also has a 30 amp circuit that goes through the inverter to the third box that is powered by the inverter. The items I have running off the inverter are plugs, rear stereo system (house type), front TV, microwave, toaster oven, bathroom heater-all resistance loads that don't require alot of starting amps-as compared to say an air conditioner (my three roof A/C's are not powered through the inverter). This has been a very reliable electrical system-although you do have to switch manually between land line and generator service-but then again I don't like the automatic switchers. Good Luck, TomC
-
Just one question where do you get these smoke Generators ?
-
Just one question where do you get these smoke Generators ?
The best smoke generators are expensive electronic gadgets like T.V.s, inverters, computers, etc ;D
-
Although, preactivated smoke producers can often be acquired on $bay, craig's, classified ads or at flea markets. Often at reduced prices. They can readily release their smoke as soon as you plug them in.
-
One thing that is critical to understand in these discussions is the concept of power. I'll start with an example, a simple 120V 120W light bulb. The power used by a 120W light bulb is 120 watts. Simple enough. The voltage is 120V. The current is 120W/120V = 1A. So, my 120W light bulb uses 1A of current at 120V.
Okay, so now suppose you want to run that same light bulb off of a 12V battery bank. For that you would use a 12V to 120V inverter. Commonly available no problem. You should by an inverter that supplies at least 120W. Okay, no problem, we'll buy a 200W inverter.
Okay, time for the big concept, Power out = Power in. Actually that is way simplified and never true. Any time you transform power from one voltage to another you loss a little because nothing is perfect. So, you will often hear people speak of the inverters efficiency. For arguments sake, let's suppose our 200W inverter is 90% efficient. That means you will only get out 90% of what you put in.
So, if I need 120W out for my light bulb, I will need 120/0.9 in or 133W. Now remember, that power is coming from 12V batteries, so the current required from the batteries is then 133W/12V = 11.1A. Whoa, wait one second. Above I said that light bulb only needed 1A, but now I am saying our inverter needs 11A. That is the price you pay for converting from 12V DC to 120V AC, roughly 10x.
Okay, so why is this 11A important. Well, if you are using solar, you will need at least 11A solar panel. Actually solar panels are sold in watts, so you will need 133W solar panel to run that one little light bulb. If you are using batteries, you will need to consider the capacity of the batteries. Battery capacity is rated in Amp-Hours. So, if I want to run that 120W light bulb off batteries for 10 hours, I will need a battery with 11A * 10h = 110 amp-hours. Okay, that's not to bad, a typical deep cycle battery can provide 250 AH, so I can run my light bulb for 20 hours! Awesome.
But wait, I don't really want to run a light bulb, I want to run an airconditioner. Okay, so run the same math above, for an airconditioner. For example, my 15,000 BTU Carrier uses 13A at 120V. That's 1560W. That means my inverter will now need to be at least 2000W (startup loads are much higher than running loads). Whoa, that one expsensive inverter, but I gotta have AC and not run the genset, so I'll spring for it. But wait, what about the solar and the batteries? Okay, how much power does the inverter need. 1560/0.9 = 1733W. Okay, so I need at least 1733W of solar.
A 200W solar panel is roughly $1000 and is 4.5' x 3'. So I am going to need 9 of these panels to run my AC and it will take up about 15' x 8' of roof space. Whoa $9000 for solar to run 1 AC unit, that can't be right. Well, it is and it isn't, I'll come back to that in a bit.
Okay, what about batteries? Okay, so I need roughly 1800W of power, and at 12V that comes to 1800W/12V = 150A. Cool, my battery is 250 AH, so I can run my AC for 250/150 = 1 hour and 40 minutes. What, only 1 hour and 40 minutes? Yep, and then that battery will be completely dead, and need to be recharged. Well, I really want to run my AC for longer and I want to run 2 of them sometimes, so I'll get 4 really good deep cycle batteries. Whoa, that costs how much? Wow, this power stuff is getting exspensive.
Okay, so your batteries are dead and you need to recharge them. No problem, I'll use my $1000 200W solar panel. Keeping it simple, that solar panel can supply 16A at 12V to charge my batteries. (It will be worse than this for alot of reasons.) Again power out = power in. So, let's suppose I drained my 4 batteries using 150A for 4 hours (AC cycled on and off all day and night), for a total of 600AH. My solar cell can supply 16A, so it will take 600/16 = 38 hours to charge my batteries. Whoa! Okay, so I wil use a 100A charger off my genset, that will only take 6 hours. What 6 hours? Gee I could have just run my genset to run the AC's and only had to run it for 4 hours.
Okay, so some of that I say is exaggerated, but not by much. What you need to understand here is power out = power in. Watts out = Watts in or Amp-Hours out = Amp-Hours in. All this power stuff costs a huge amount of money. When figuring out how much power stuff you will need you need to add up all the watts of the stuff you are using, AC/Microwave/TV/Lights/etc and how long you are going to use it on average. First you can size your inverter or genset with the total Watts needed, then you can size your batteries/solar/chargers depending on how much stuff is used. If you really plan to boondock with as little genset as possible, you need to get the most efficient of everything, which is going to drive the cost way up. Getting rid of voltage conversions helps also, so a 12V fridge off batteries is better than a 120V fridge off an inverter off batteries.
Alot of people spend 3-5K on a genset, then another 3-5k on batteries, inverters, solar so they don't have to use the genset. For me personally, I just use the genset. It is very quiet, and we don't boondock, so we can get away with that.
Good luck and get your calculator out.
-
Nice job explaining that Chris!
Jim
-
Chris,
Really nice job. Even I understood that and I only have 30 years in electronics but I am soooooo very dated.
Thanks and come again,
John
-
Very good reader friendly post.
Thanks for helping and saving someone's mistake from choosing the unwanted choices.
Might add…those batteries have temporary life too, so figure to replaces them when load drains + time test result show too weak to hold charges to meet your desire.
And if in very cold climate region…batteries are temperature sensitive to colds. May needs even bigger or more banks of batteries.
And solar panel is prone to hail damages and any physical object or missile as will moisture getting into panel’s wiring to repair or replace.
Like is already mentioned in above posts…be sure which plans you choose. It only depends what you can spend and enjoy at the same time.
Ideally an extremely quiet power generator that uses very little fuel….if that is possible & practical, that would eliminates all extra division of power sources and less to go wrong. Carry two generators so if one breaks down.
Wish you well.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
-
Ok I think I understand most of that.
I have a house type refergator (120volt ac) in my bus could you guess as to what size inverter I would need to run it.
I guess you would also need to know how many batteries I was using too.
Well I was going to ask if any body knew the way to figure this so I could try to be the correct amount of batteries and right inverter to run the at least two days on the batteries.
This would help in getting me to understand what I need to have along with the 15KW that I have already. I just don't want to run it all the time if i am parked and away from the bus for the whole day. I don't like the idea of runing the genset when I am to going to be there with the price of fuel the way it is.
Thanks for you help with another of my stupid questions.
Bob bobgil@flash.net
-
RV Calculators
Appliance Current Load Calculator to Daily Watt Usage at bottom of page: http://www.advancedpowerproducts.com/panelcalculator.php
AC/DC Load:
http://www.bdbatteries.com/acdcrv.php
DC/DC Load:
http://www.bdbatteries.com/dcdcrv.php
bdbatteries.com even has NEC code listed.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
-
I have a house type refergator (120volt ac) in my bus could you guess as to what size inverter I would need to run it.
You'd have to look on the fridge to see how much power it uses cuz they vary. That doesn't answer your question I know but its the only 100% certain answer.
In the real world the answer to your question is that you aren't likely to be able to carry enough batteries to run 2 days on battery power with a household fridge. For a reference point we have 3 8D gel cells, an RV fridge that we run on gas when boondocking and a propane range. We still run the generator at least a couple of hours every 24. If you are serious about going off the grid and not running the generator then there are solar panels in your future.
I've been researching this for a long time (and I still don't know very much) but we are going to put 3 or 4 x 100 watt panels on the roof this summer. My guess (and that's all it is) is that we will then be able to avoid using the generator at all unless we want to cook a roast or do something else that has big power consumption.
-
I go to antque truck shows and I am normaly away from the vehicle for most of the day. I was hoping that the frig would be ok during that amount of time.
i guess if I have 4 battries and an inverter it may run them down but then it would have power part of the day any way and thins might not go bad. I figure I will be hooked up in the evenings or at least run the genset for a while.
Bob Gil
-
Bob, remember, your fridge doesn't run 24/7... it only runs when it is called on for more cooling.
We use a 2500W inverter and 2 Marine Deep Cycle lead acid batteries.
Our fridge is about 25 years old and draws 3.9A when running. When we go down the road it keeps icecream frozen all day with no power to it. We plug it in at night when we hook up to a power pole.
If we are boon docking, we plug it in to the inverter as we go down the road, and it keeps all night when parked.
The inverter a marine batteries allow us to run 2 tower computers, the fridge and all the lights for about 30 hours, off an on.
Good luck,
Dallas
-
So....what I hear is ..... for someone who boon docks in hot weather and wants 74 degrees at all times, the only reasonable approach ( cost wise) is a generator. And if it's 85 degrees, that generator will be running all night.
-
Chazwood,
I believe this is where somebody is supposed to say
A well insulated bus can save a lot of energy :)
Skip
-
The design and planning of an electrical system cannot be done on a discussion board. There are just too many variables. Many here will help as much as they can and there are some highly qualified people on this board and others.
The first place to go is a bus get together of some type. Look at what other people have done, talk ask questions, everybody loves to help. You will be exposed to some of the best there is.
Buy a book, this one is great,
www.amazon.com/Living-Twelve-Volts-Ample-Power/dp/0945415052 - 167k
Only my Opinion Jim
-
Chazwood,
I believe this is where somebody is supposed to say
A well insulated bus can save a lot of energy :)
Skip
I am very close to having the whole bus foamed....which is why I was putting feelers out as to what wires I would need to bury in the foam...It's almost as if you need to have hind sight, to do it right. >:(
I wish someone would invent a propane air conditioner....then I could have a total propane system.
-
I couldn't agree more but look on the bright side I spent 6 months debating
with myself (and lost)
So I will go with my grandads philosophy
Over build today so it will meet tomorrows needs (hopefully......a maybe if the creek don't rise)
Skip
-
The design and planning of an electrical system cannot be done on a discussion board. There are just too many variables. Many here will help as much as they can and there are some highly qualified people on this board and others.
The first place to go is a bus get together of some type. Look at what other people have done, talk ask questions, everybody loves to help. You will be exposed to some of the best there is.
Buy a book, this one is great,
www.amazon.com/Living-Twelve-Volts-Ample-Power/dp/0945415052 - 167k
Only my Opinion Jim
Amazon....."we don't have this book in stock ,and we don't know if we will ever get it again" ;D
-
A Quote from Chazwood: I wish someone would invent a propane air conditioner....then I could have a total propane system.
Oh but there is.... but you may not be able to afford to put it in your bus!
How about a LP generator? that would solve your problem!
Good Luck
Nick-
-
A Quote from Chazwood: I wish someone would invent a propane air conditioner....then I could have a total propane system.
Oh but there is.... but you may not be able to afford to put it in your bus!
How about a LP generator? that would solve your problem!
Good Luck
Nick-
An LP generator is as loud as a gas or diesel isn't it? The only hesitation I have is too much noise. I was hoping to be silent.
-
A realist would do a design that would lead to a realistic and approachable
end result. I heat with LP gas and cook with the same. The problem is two-fold,
The price of LP Gas is rising rapidly and I have been burning over $100 a month
to stay relatively warm. The second issue is storage capability for LP Gas.
There are more Don't than there are DO's..
Electrical Power .. Hmmm... Diesel Generator is the only cost effective approach
in most cases. The reasoning is this; LP Gas powered generators although quiet and fairly safe use a lot of fuel. Gasoline generators can be quiet and use a LOT of fuel per hour per kilowatt available. Say generally 1 gallon an hour. The need for a separate fuel tank system, filling that system and storage issues. Gasoline and LP engines need tuneups and usually carburetors that can be finicky. ( LP engines have a carb conversion ). LP gas Generators start around 1 gallon to 2 gallons per hour from what I have read. ( Note: A 20 lb LP cylinder holds approximately 4.5 gallons of fuel )
( Not counting that fuel lost due to the fuel guy charging you for a full fill when there may already be some fuel in the tank. ) The cost for LP Gas agents is tricky. They don't always go by the gallons meter, They use fill weight as imprinted on the cylinder.
Diesel powered generators large enough to handle most bus conversions use anywhere from 1 quart to 1/2 gallon an hour. Storage and tanks issues are fewer due to it using the same fuel that powers the bus normally, So dual pickups in the main tank are an easy option. Most are 7.5 kw to 15kw range. A Typical genset would be right in the 8 to 10 kw range for best efficiency. They can be very quiet but need special soundproofing to be effective.
An all electric coach would or should be all diesel. A hybrid setup would be Electric everything except the Stove and LP Furnace.. Everything else needs 120 volts or less.
I have 150 watts of Solar, Diesel Generator, LP Stove and Furnace, Primary lighting is all 12 volts, 3000 watt Inverter and 800 ah of batteries.
My plugged in power bill due to extra electric heaters and a couple of other things so far peaked at $360 a month. I unplugged a few things and reduce it to $250 this past
month. My LP usage has been right at $100 a month.
Over last summer my power was $178 a month...I guess I got more stuff hooked up now, Guess I will have to see what that is before I top $400 for electric....
Dave...... http://www.rvbus.net
-
Hi chris, Great post, well laid out!
Hi chazwood.
Some folks run conduit inside the foam, instead of cable, so that changes, upgrades and repairs may be made without disturbing the ceiling, or too much of it.
Rough-in for more AC's than you are going to do, boxes in the pipe lurk in a mapped location if you ever want more, ceiling fans, lights, as long as you put in a good number of access points in your few runs of pipe, you can measure out and cut in neatly to add stuff.
Some folks run cable chases in the tops of the cupboards, and only put the AC wires in the ceiling.
Be sure to have a combination of lighting, AC and DC in the coach. If one isn't available, the other will be.
Lots of ways to easily make your generator quieter, do some archive diving here and at BNO, building a hush box, remote the radiator, remote the exhaust, spend a little or a lot on sound deadening materials.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
-
Chazwood -
In addition to what others have said, IMHO. . . Only bury conduit for your a/c & lights in the ceiling's foam. Do NOT bury your wiring in the foam along the walls - use chases behind the cupboards right where the wall meets the roof, with plenty of access points for later changes. Use drops for switches and plugs hidden in the back of cabinets, etc., not buried in the foam.
Now a couple of serious questions before you foam the interior. Bear with, there's a method to the madness:
1> Have you worked out your floor plan? Mapped it out with painter's tape on the floor? Mocked it up with cardboard boxes?
2> If you have your floor plan worked out, have you figured out your plumbing runs?
3> If you have your floor plan and plumbing runs worked out, have you drawn schematics for your electrical circuits? Both 12vdc and 120vac? (Note: don't run 12vdc in the same conduit as 120vac.)
4> If you've got your floor plan, mapped out your plumbing, and drawn your schematics, have you sat down and figured out all your electrical draws so you know how many Watts of power you're going to need?
5> Once you've got #4 figured out, now you get to figure out where you're going to put the sub-panels to handle the various loads you've calculated. (Think about this carefully - do you really want to go outside at Oh Dark Thirty in the rain to switch from shore power to the genset when the campground's power goes out unexpectedly, it's still 85 degrees outside and Mama wants the A/C on?)
6> Are you going to use the existing escape hatches for your A/C units, or are you going to cut new holes in the roof? If you're going to cut new holes, you need to reinforce the area with steel supports between the roof ribs before you foam, too.
See where the method is to the madness in all of the above?
Dick Wright, of Wirco International, has a genset setup in his coach that is so quiet you can stand right next to the coach and not even know it's running - and it's a diesel!! Inside all you hear is a quiet hum - low enough you have to ask if the generator's on. So don't rule out a genset for boondocking just because previous experience has been with a noisy unit in the past. And the diesel genset really is the least expensive way to generate power when you're off the grid. (Why do you think most commercial emergency back-up generators are diesel??)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
-
Wow! Who needs a brain? (I let the smoke out of mine long ago) I have you guys. ;D ;D. Believe me I am devouring my manuals so fast I'm crosseyed half the time but it's great to follow in yall's footsteps. You all sound like you know where you're going.
I guess I was being a little to jealous of my inside space in wanting to bury as much wire in the walls and ceiling as I could. Silly. (But remember, I got 8 in this can of people.)
So I guess a diesel genset...(genset?..... why do we call it a genset?) Is the way to go.
-
Chaz,
I very strongly urge you to take the time to look up and go visit with Mr. Fred Hobe of N. FL before you go much farther in doing your conversion! I guarantee that it will be one of the most valuable investments of your time that will pay off over & over as you go! If I remember correctly your in LA ( Lower Alabama) and he's in North Florida, so it shouldn't be that far of a jog (better make that drive), and if possible it'd be worth even more to you if ya did it in the bus. Then Fred could show ya what is what on it! Fred is very committed to helping others avoid doing the wrong things when converting their buses, and has plenty of experience to teach from! Even if it cost you $4-500 and several days of your time, in my opinion it would be worth that 50 X over in the knowledge you'll gain and from avoiding making costly mistakes in the long run! Now please keep in mind that Fred is by far not the only one who could/would be able to give you great advice, he is simply the best I can think of in close range of you! FWIW ;D BK ;D
-
Chaz,
I very strongly urge you to take the time to look up and go visit with Mr. Fred Hobe of N. FL before you go much farther in doing your conversion! I guarantee that it will be one of the most valuable investments of your time that will pay off over & over as you go! If I remember correctly your in LA ( Lower Alabama) and he's in North Florida, so it shouldn't be that far of a jog (better make that drive), and if possible it'd be worth even more to you if ya did it in the bus. Then Fred could show ya what is what on it! Fred is very committed to helping others avoid doing the wrong things when converting their buses, and has plenty of experience to teach from! Even if it cost you $4-500 and several days of your time, in my opinion it would be worth that 50 X over in the knowledge you'll gain and from avoiding making costly mistakes in the long run! Now please keep in mind that Fred is by far not the only one who could/would be able to give you great advice, he is simply the best I can think of in close range of you! FWIW ;D BK ;D
I very much agree with BK on this. Fred isn't too far away for you to spend a couple days with him and come away rich in bus conversion wisdom.
One point I haven't seen made in this thread (my apologies if someone has and I missed it) is that neither house nor engine battery banks should ever be run all the way down. Conventional wisdom is that you should not drain them below 50% in order to maximize their life.
-
I'd love to make that trip.......I will see if time permits.
In the meantime I'm still ripping up the front floors. Took out the steps ....you could grow corn in the dirt down there. What a mess.
-
Chris 85 RTS, I must say talk about letting the smoke out, after getting only half way through your post the smoke was pouting out of my ears. I definitely had a short, but I keep reading and soon I began to lose my vision before I could get to the end. Now I know I've had two bad weeks health wise with the first week I had the head flu the second week I got the stomach flue and right in the middle I almost died at church during revival this past Sat. Thank God the men gathered around me, anointed me with oil and laid hands on me and prayed. Gods grace is the only reason I'm here today. I know I'm just weak and between your post and Russ's post I had to lay down, as you guys almost pushed me over the edge LOL. Very good info I'm sure I'll come back to reread when I'm feeling better.
WVaNative
-
chaz,
i converted my coach, unlike you i found this board after i completed --FWIW i did a 20kw genset, yeah i know way to big, but i am in the genset business (large ones like 100kw - 500kw) for emergency back up for telecommunications, also i did the 5 ton air conditioning thing as basement air, needed the larger genset to help with big compressor starting. with that said depandent on how you intend to use your coach spend a little more money and make it were you cannot hear you genset run -- buy one of those rv units that are encloused, pull and exhaust the air from the bottom -- insulate the bay you put in and you are good to go -- or buy a slightly larger unit, remote the radiator, put a small fan to vent this compartment (like a boat blower for an in board) and like was mention in this thread previously you will not hear it run -- my 20KW will run continuoisly with 25-50% load and burn less than 1/2 gallon -- with a 170 gal tank that translates into days -- say 4 days 50 gals (even at 4.00 =200.00) and you run anything you want anytime you want (ac, cook, lights, do what you want when you want, no watching guages, saving battery banks) if you use your coach 5 times a year that is 1,000.00 ... you will spend that on one trace inverter -- not to mention the batteries -- then wire a couple of lights to that bank forget about them dischagre you batteries completely and go and buy new batteries ... for full timers yes -- for the way i do it -- buy a little diesel fuel and do not have to think -- for me total cost of owernship -- ease of use and greatest flexiablity meant leaving the genset running --
my suggestion --
david
-
So...... what's the best genset? ;D
-
Hi Chazwood,
I wouldn't say Onan was the best but, I think it is the quietest. I have a onan 12.5 quiet diesel and it's a b++ch to work on.
After being next to numerous coaches with other brands. I'm convinced that my onan is the quietest.
Good Luck
Nick-
-
I would suggest a water cooled diesel that will usually run at 50-65% of its rated capacity, installed in a noise reduction enclosure. Jack
-
OK.... let me drop the stupid question bomb and get some on you.......why would you guys be running your gensets (still don't know why we call them gensets....it's not a word if spell check refuses to acknowledge it's existence >:() next to someone, if you are at a park with poles? You must be talking about when you're next to someone, in a group, in the boonies, with no services? Yes?
-
OK.... let me drop the stupid question bomb and get some on you.......why would you guys be running your gensets (still don't know why we call them gensets....it's not a word if spell check refuses to acknowledge it's existence >:() next to someone, if you are at a park with poles? You must be talking about when you're next to someone, in a group, in the boonies, with no services? Yes?
Yes, that and rallys...
Nick-
-
Many get togethers such as tailgate parties, Nascar races, bus rallies, Bluegrass fetivals, etc. are held where no power poles (shoreline power) are available. This requires the use of gensets. I think GENSET is a shortening of Generator Set which is what they use to be called. Jack
-
Does anyone have the new HQD Onan? Comments?
-
Hi Chazwood,
No, But its the next generation with Cummins thinking down the road. If the inverter part of it fits your needs, then
it woul be a great choice for your coach. Since it is a matched set-up, could be very easy to wire up and install.
Good Luck
Nick-
-
Does anyone have the new HQD Onan? Comments?
After seeing your post, I went to their website and was intrigued enough to call the local dealer. The results will not encourage you, they told me that they are selling these to OEM's only. :(
I really do like the concept though.
-
The ability to run silently makes the coach more invisible while you are out and about.
A busnut does not want this kind of "visibility".
The more noise you make, the more likely you get asked to leave prematurely, get ticketed due to public complaint, someone takes offence, does vandalism to you while you are asleep, etc.
As truck stops get quieter with anti-idling laws, a busnut does not want to be the one irritating overworked and tired truckers who are trying to sleep next door.
And what does it take for the stink of your exhaust to pollute whoever is parked alongside? At many bus rallies, the coaches are parked a patio width apart. Your off side is someone else's patio....Adding exterior pipes in a lot of public places will invite unwanted attention again.
The "undesirables" who bum around in obviously half converted buses are the target of our efforts. We must put a lot of effort into our presentation and behaviour that we are civilized people, not "them".
And, of course, you have to live inside the ringing drum that your coach will be if you don't get it hushed down.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
-
The "undesirables" who bum around in obviously half converted buses are the target of our efforts. We must put a lot of effort into our presentation and behaviour that we are civilized people, not "them".
OUCH!
I agree with the rest of your post about generator noise and fumes. But this line really offends me. A lot of us use our half converted buses and that is usually encouraged on this forum. It is part of keeping your enthusiasm for the project. In fact, we full time in ours.
-
HTR, slow down, I meant the ones that obviously aren't going further than underfunded...
I'm sure we all know the difference between a bus enthusiast and the undesirables that make our gig tough, if they've been someplace before us. We've either heard of or been refused entry ourselves, due to the facility owner's past experience with the occupants of rough half conversions.
We need to be careful to not unwittingly appear to be from some category of folks to which we do not belong, or broach customs in places that we are interlopers.
Making a lot of noise and stink is a good way to be misinterpreted, was the point of my efforts.
My apologies!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
-
Thanks for clarifying, BW. I can see your point now and am no longer personally offended. I know there are some bad apples out there that cast a bad light on bus conversions through their behavior. But on the other hand there are also some really great people out in rough looking bus conversions and old S&S's. Likewise their are some real ______ out there in top end RV's who ought to be banned from leaving their own driveway.
I don't judge books or buses by their cover. But you are right that some campgrounds have a bad opinion of bus conversions because of a bad experience they have had. The funny thing is, they have probably had just as many bad experiences with nice looking RV's. It's just that they deal with a lot more RV's that mellow out that bad experience. But there aren't enough bus conversions come through to offset their bad experience.
-
Well, my wife says when I make a lot of noise, it usually stinks. :P So I guess I'm toast.
The inverter part of the system is only necessary if your running a battery bank in conjunction with your gen-set. Right? If you don't plan on batteries why have an inverter?
-
Most people hear the word "BUS" and think Big Yellow School Bus and their brains shut down and the denial starts. Whether it be a campground operator or even one of your own friends whi hasn't seen what you are working on or just plain cannot grasp the thought.
No insult here for Crown owners, Sorry but Crowns are a bit differently flavored.
The idea is to keep your profile and visibility to a minimum and try to make what you have as acceptable as possible with your given budget or lack there of.
A noisy generator will surely upset someone somewhere. People who prefer to run straight pipes on their buses are also on the list of people that need some adjustments no matter how good they think it sounds.
Generator stacks or roof top exhaust systems that push the fumes away from living spaces is now becoming the standard requirement in most places. Especially at rallies where you are parked in close and confined spaces.
Stacks however are not perfect and someone is going to be downwind somewhere and complain. But the only thing is at least the fumes will be dissipating and diluting better where there is more airflow.
Two other things worthy of mention are HEAT discharge and mechanical engine noise. The noise issue can be resolved by creative baffles and insulation.
The heat however is harder to work with if you have a limited amount of room to work.
Fresh cool air is needed to cool the engine and electronics. The heat has to have a place to escape that won't be blown to the guy next door and to insure adequate cooling. Remote radiators help but you still have limits.
-
Here's a good example of the type of bus conversion that gives the hobby a bad name. Sorry it's a lousy pic, but the you get the idea:
-
Well, there goes my idea for urban camoflage! I thought no one would see me! :D