Progressing well-

[roadrunnertex]

Look at this folks!

http://www.angelfire.com/al/silverball/brill.jpg

jlv

[TomC]

That bus really looks good (looking past the paint).  I know the Hall-Scotts were excellent gas engines, and were great workhorses, for their time.  While you might get it running, will you be able to afford the 2-4mpg?  Personally, I'd get a Cummins laydown NTC350 or a Detroit 6-71TA laydown lined up so you can do some real travelling without interruption because of an obsolete engine.  Hope you get the project going-will make a unique conversion.  Good Luck, TomC

[Dallas]

That bus really looks good (looking past the paint).  I know the Hall-Scotts were excellent gas engines, and were great workhorses, for their time.  While you might get it running, will you be able to afford the 2-4mpg?  Personally, I'd get a Cummins laydown NTC350 or a Detroit 6-71TA laydown lined up so you can do some real travelling without interruption because of an obsolete engine.  Hope you get the project going-will make a unique conversion.  Good Luck, TomC

Hey Tom,
Better than those, since they'll be, or already are obsolete, put one of the little Volvo or Mercedes engines in there.
Or if the electronics are intimidating, how about a cummins ISB or a Detroit Series 50?
In my '36 Brill there was lots of room for an upright..... It had a straight 8 Buick motor in it.
My personal choice for that bus would be an 1170 Cat with a Eaton RTO 9610 driving a 3.73 differential. Put 22.5 rubber on it and you would have a real screamer on the road.

Of course, we're talking big money for those changes.

If the Hall-Scott doesn't work out try looking for a 6.9 IH (also was in the Ford as a Ford motor), drop an allison 4speed OD behind it and go with the current differential.

Optimally, I like the Hall-Scott. Low end torque, midrange acceleration, and the fuel mileage wasn't all that bad for them. 2-5mpg for a
stock engine. Shave the head, put in a single MSD ignition, up grade the carb., get an Offenheuser cam, ( they still make them).
You could probably double or even triple the fuel mileage with the right set up. I think, (I'm not positive), that the Hall Scott engine used a #1 or #2 bell housing as standard.
If that's true, the great engine for it would be the 6V53 to keep it in line with it's age. 2800 RPM, 220HP, close to 500'# torque, the rear end might not handle it, but that's an easy change out.

Now the bottom line is what HE wants from it.

Dallas

[Len Silva]

Just in case you might be interested, there is a Brill chapter of FMCA

Len

[Brill-o]

Hello again-

I’m sorry for the belated reply, but I’ve been working on her the best part of the day, and had company after that.

Roadrunnert:

First of let me apologize for misspelling your screen name—I didn’t realize until I reread it!

Wow, what information! I would have never known!
And, the pic you posted was great- That is exactly what my bus used to look like—same colour scheme and all! That’s my best keeper pic’, yet
Thank you so much!

TomC & Dallas:

I’ll be making those types of decisions once she’s up and running-
I wouldn't mind another Detroit or a Cat. And I would like at least a 9-speed.
Money will be the biggest hurdle-

I don’t know about your mileage figures as our mem’ 46Brillbus is getting 9-10 with his Hall-Scott.

Dallas:
The series 50- Is that the Detroit series based on a Benz motor design?
 I was told D-C stopped production of the series 55. I thought the series 50 was based on that? Maybe they’re different for bus applications.

I drove a Freightliner with a series 50 in it. It was dog slow out the gate, but had great torque. 315hp I think, but don’t recall for sure.
I owned another Liner’ (98’) with the series 55. That had a peak of 465hp and 1600-ftlb of torque. A real bull. That baby would knock any hill flat!

Hello Len-

Thank you for the tip!

What is FMCA?

I contacted a one Bruce Paskvan as I was told he was the president of a Brill club. He was very helpful, but seemed a bit troubled that some people he was counting on, or expected contact from failed to follow through.
He supplied some good info, but I haven’t heard from him since.
I will have to write him again.

For the Bus update:

I have 4 rear lights, 1 front light, an oil light on the dash, two inside fans, and the fuel pump working. I have all the plugs cleaned and they all are capable of spark. The tank has been drained, and ready to clean.

The engine cranks well.

I ‘m left with a couple of electrical glitches, which are most likely, the cause of the no-fire condition. I had voltage to the distributor, but lost it to a bad ground, probably.
I’m diligently working on it and have direction.

Again, I must thank 46Brillbus for his  valuable time and support spent working with me on this (He has a manual). Thank you Sir!

I’ll be on it all day again tomorrow-

Updates when more results..


Cheers..

[TomC]

Man-I don't think I've ever heard of a Hall-Scott getting much over 5mpg let alone pushing 10mpg?  (maybe he was being pushed by a 50mph or so tail wind).
The Series 50 is the 4 cylinder version of the 6 cylinder Series 60 that is still being used in trucks and buses today.  The Series 55 was a 12 liter Mercedes-Benz based engine that was dogged by head gasket problems. Detroit dropped the Series 55, went back to the drawing board with Mercedes-Benz and came back with a winner that is the 12.8 liter Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 that has up to 450hp and 1550lb/ft of torque.  It has 6 individual cylinder heads, external unit electronic injectors with high pressure lines to the cylinder, and a compression and turbo brake (they have a small 5th valve in the head that is hydraulically powered for the compression brake and the turbo has a sheath that goes over the turbine wheel that restricts the exhaust gas route that speeds up the turbine during engine braking to send alot more air into the engine to be compressed-hence over 550hp of braking),plus it only weighs in at 2150lb (about what a 6V-92TA weighs).  All that have used it loves the low end torque and the great fuel mileage.  Personally, I would much rather have the Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 in my bus than the huge Detroit Series 60.  And they are really close in power-and you'd have about 500lb less hanging out the end of the bus.  Just some info.  Good Luck, TomC

[Len Silva]

Hello Len-

Thank you for the tip!

What is FMCA?

Family Motor Coach Association   http://fmca.com/

The very first of the bus conversion groups, started in 1963, though now they are mainly commercial motor homes.

Well worth checking out.

Len

[Dallas]

Man-I don't think I've ever heard of a Hall-Scott getting much over 5mpg let alone pushing 10mpg?  (maybe he was being pushed by a 50mph or so tail wind).
The Series 50 is the 4 cylinder version of the 6 cylinder Series 60 that is still being used in trucks and buses today.  The Series 55 was a 12 liter Mercedes-Benz based engine that was dogged by head gasket problems. Detroit dropped the Series 55, went back to the drawing board with Mercedes-Benz and came back with a winner that is the 12.8 liter Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 that has up to 450hp and 1550lb/ft of torque.  It has 6 individual cylinder heads, external unit electronic injectors with high pressure lines to the cylinder, and a compression and turbo brake (they have a small 5th valve in the head that is hydraulically powered for the compression brake and the turbo has a sheath that goes over the turbine wheel that restricts the exhaust gas route that speeds up the turbine during engine braking to send alot more air into the engine to be compressed-hence over 550hp of braking),plus it only weighs in at 2150lb (about what a 6V-92TA weighs).  All that have used it loves the low end torque and the great fuel mileage.  Personally, I would much rather have the Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 in my bus than the huge Detroit Series 60.  And they are really close in power-and you'd have about 500lb less hanging out the end of the bus.  Just some info.  Good Luck, TomC

Oops Tom,
I misspoke! I was looking at a Hercules engine manual instead of a Hall-Scott Manual. I'll have to figure out where the Hall-Scott book got to out of the notebook.
If I remember right, the Hall-Scott was a super low compression engine with something less than 6:1 commpression. Mostly because it could run on just about any grade of junk that got put into it.
If you raise the compression, change the timing and cam lift/duration, plus put in a hot spark and an updated carb, I'll bet you could significantly raise gas mileage of the old monster.

I would have mentioned the MBE4000 but I was wondering how the old girl would handle all that torque and horsepower. Would it be possible to over tax the frame and body with all that torque?

I picked the other engines because of size/weight/power ratios plus availability of parts and initial cost.
The Mercedes engine I was thinking of was the OM-352. 130HP, 269ftlbs of torque, plenty to handle the Brill. This engine has been used in everything from small delivery trucks to big earth moving equipment.

Still, just to dream, the MBE4000 with an Ultrashift behind it would make for one hot ride! Imagine the looks of all the SuperTrucks as it climbed Grapvine or Donner

Dallas

[Brill-o]

TomC:

I can’t comment on the MPG of the H-S, but 46Brillbus (a most honest chap) had his engine highly reworked. As Dallas pointed out, this may have been the reason for the good mileage-

And yes, that was the engine I had—and the probs’ I’d experienced.
I was very meticulous with new engine break-in and maintenance, so my gasket(s) blew right around 100K. Supposedly, most went at 40-60K.

Detroit put out a TSB for the warranty repair, and mine was pretty much overhauled.

I’ll add this- but if it is wrong, (it shouldn’t be) go ahead and remove it.
My repair was done by “Western Branch” a Detroit diesel authorized repair center located in Springfield, Va..
They took 3 (!!) months- they would of taken longer if I hadn’t threatened with legal action.
The day I went to pick it up, the batteries were dead, the rad’ was empty, and the rad clamps loose, plus It had an oil leak, the A/C didn’t work, and bent my steering link.
I drove off and lost control of the truck not a ¼ mile from the shop.

 I was able to get it safely on the shoulder and walked back. Without going into anymore details about that, I’ll say it took another 2+ weeks for the steering repair.

My point is- I came very close to going under from that.
A new truck with high monthly payments (which had to be made), and the truck sitting through the best part of the work season was almost a deathblow and I nearly lost my home.
I would highly recommend that everyone steer clear of that establishment. A lesson learned by me-


Len:
Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out!

Dallas:
 I miss-spoke as well-
My engine developed 400HP peak. I got a best of 9MPG—extremely good for a Tri-axle dump.

An MBE 4000 would be super. What a dream!

And I dream a lot…


Cheers..

[46Brillbus]

Brillo- you are correct...very little is stock on this engine. I know there has to be quite a few wondering how the old bus manages its mileage. It was balanced and blueprinted at the Hall-Scott factory, it has a modified carb, intake, non stock exhaust  and it has higher diff ratio than stock plus it is running the 9 speed Eaton-Fuller transmission.
The 10 mpg is the best I have ever been able to obtain and that was on flat land. It drops to around 6 in the high passes of Colorado. I do not drive it the way it was built as it was built to run across the Arizona and Nevada desert at higher speeds than I like...so I just amble along and get pretty decent mileage. If needed she will get up and run with the big dogs but I am in no hurry to get anywhere these days!
I do have a new Mallory ignition system in hand but have not started the install...having too much fun as Brillo brings his bus back to life!
Just take your time and enjoy the process!
Clint