Blew turbo, west of Albuquerque

[Sean]

Sean, the turbo number on mine is a Garret E8927027. Other info is VBM0104, 9032M24,
A/R .81. ...

and

The Garrett part number for your turbocharger is 465745-0001  >TV8513 family.  Clifford posted the turbine A/R which should be 1.39, please verify.   Joe posted the compressor housing A/R and number > .81A/R

OK, all the markings I see from the photos I have of this thing before it went in are as follows:

Turbine (exhaust) Side:
Garrett
171/89
3109 6 (on exhaust flange)

Impeller (intake compressor) side:
Garrett
A/R .81  M24

I do not see the A/R for the turbine.

Photos linked at the end of this post.

The complete center section that you should be looking for "new"  is a 442032-0022   I'm pretty sure that I have one..     I strongly recommend not getting a rebuilt unit but spending the extra $$$ and buying a new center section.   This will get you a brand new bearing housing, backplate, compressor wheel and turbine wheel all assembled and balanced.  

OK.  Three concerns:  First, what does it take to replace the center section?  Second, how quickly could I get one of these here in ABQ?  Lastly, there clearly has been exhaust gas escaping around the turbine housing on the bearing side.  Does that change your opinion about reusing the housing?

Photos:
http://odyssey.smugmug.com/gallery/131040_g58Tf#595657459_fxPCa
http://odyssey.smugmug.com/gallery/131040_g58Tf#595656689_eKZqh
(choose "Original" to see full-size)

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[JohnEd]

Sean,

An ancient Chinese CURSE is "may you live in interesting times".  God only knows what some Chinaman "thinks" you did to him.

Good luck with this.  I am greatly encouraged by the assist that the board has given you.  Nothing short of wonderful.  You should be on your way in a couple days max.

Would upgrading your turbo "size" give you more power?  Is there any potential upgrade that you could take advantage of in this situation?

Cheers,

John

[Sean]

Would upgrading your turbo "size" give you more power?  Is there any potential upgrade that you could take advantage of in this situation?

Not really.  Making any kind of change like that would require a new computer program (in the $thousands) and possibly different injectors.  If there had been any easy way to do that, we would have done so during the in-frame.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[Zeroclearance]

Sean with the ease of FedEx anything can be shipped to you "next day"

To seperate the turbine housing AND compressor housing you need to mark/clock the two housings.   The Rookie mistake for most folks is undoing the band clamps>you then struggle getting everything clocked when mounting the new components.   Take a punch and mark the vertical 12 o'clock in relation to oil inlet fitting which is on top of the bearing housing.  We want to call that the 12 o'clock reference.   

Step two is to undo the band clamp on the turbine side of the turbocharger.   You have mentioned the exhaust blow-bye.   It can be caused by a loose clamp or a over tightened clamp> or lastly a erroded sealing surface >>either the bearing housing/center section or turbine housing.   I would spray some penetrant to ease the removal of the housing.   Grab a brass hammer and tap the housing arount the perimeter (not in one spot)  Some HARDwood with a hammer will work.   We want to keep the compressor on so that you don't destroy the compressor wheel  > yes the turbine wheel is toast.    With stubborn housings one will have to get the heat out and apply to the turbine housing.   But since the housings were off a few years ago, you should get it off.   Again I hold the compressor housing in one hand, and "beat" the turbine housing in a rotational motion.   THIS is the hardest thing that you will have to do..

Next you will need to undo the clamp on the compressor housing.    The housing will come off with gentle tapping.

[Zeroclearance]

[Zeroclearance]

Sean, I post the complete parts list for your turbocharger.   You can order any part for your turbo at any Garrett turbo dealer.   If you can read the info off your data tag (located on your bearing housing) we can then confirm what you have.   That A/R for your turbine housing will be stamped inside the turbine housing inlet.  FYI the 400HP engine uses a 1.23 A/R turbine housing.   Everything else is the same.   

[Sean]

Kevin,

Thanks for the very complete description of the fix, as well as the parts list.  I have to confess, I am nervous about tackling this -- I know the tolerances are very precise, and these things spin horrendously fast with incredible forces involved.  Of course, someone with the handle "zero clearance" probably thinks these heavy-duty Garretts are "sloppy"

Sean with the ease of FedEx anything can be shipped to you "next day"

Sure... I had been thinking about getting a whole turbo -- this sucker must weigh 40 lbs, and I'd rather not contemplate what that costs to ship next-day.  But, of course, the turbine/impeller assembly must be much, much lighter -- I'm guessing maybe four or five pounds?

I will definitely consider putting a new set into my existing housing.  Although I might try to find a local specialist to do that for me; again, contemplating doing this myself gives me some pause.

Thanks again for all the help.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[Zeroclearance]

Sean, with your turbine wheel destroyed, you don't have anything to worry about.   You can undo the clamp and beat the housing off.   The compressor housing will come off with very little issues.    All in all you have a destroyed center section.   These are simple turbochargers vs the newest variable vaned units that are being used right now.  

If you were up in Sumner,  I would have that turbo in pieces in 30 minutes..    I would recommend that you hot tank the turbine housing and blast it>>aluminum oxide.    I gather from looking at your 2005 pictures that your turbine housing is in decent shape.

With this all said, you really do need to find out what caused this failure.    If you can get the turbine housing off, it will show you and "us" what the turbine wheel blades look like.    These turbochargers do NOT break shafts on there own>  typically this type of failures is induced by something else>>  FOD impact on the turbine side or oil starvation.   I guess that's one of the reasons why I'm asking you to get the turbine housing off.   If you have rolled over or missing blades you have "deeper issues"   Clifford has eluded to this..    I want to rule  out further damage.   On the other board I seen your reply about the bearings and the previous turbo rebuild.   The bottom line is>>a faulty part or poor tolerance will have manifested itself sooner vs 4 years and "X" miles down later.

Sean, you have my email address,  email me if you need help.   Give me a call if need be.

[luvrbus]

Here you go Sean I spoke with Cole and this where Stewart and Stevenson buys some of their parts an have some rebuilds done  


Central Motive Power
3740 Princeton Dr NE |
1-800-782-2525
   505-884-2525

If you need a bussines name to buy from the outfit which he doesn't think so but if you do Ed and Jim will help Jim owns a business there    good luck

[Tom Y]

Sean, I bought parts for mine off the net. I can not find the slip, sorry. But the guy knows his turbos and he had the parts in stock. Sorry not much help.  Tom Y

[Lin]

Unlike most of the others that are giving advice, I do not have any skills or experience with this.  I sense that you might not have much either.  Contemplating the consequences of a small mistake would make me look for either a new turbo or, at the very least, someone skilled to rebuild yours even if you supply all the parts. 

[Sean]

...   If you can read the info off your data tag (located on your bearing housing) we can then confirm what you have.

OK, I found the plate.  Hard to read, because it looks to have been spray-painted silver along with the rest of the unit when it was rebuilt, but it turns out to be a Detroit-Allison plate (I could barely make that out on the embossing) with the following two numbers stamped into it:
23503264
SK0127 L

   That A/R for your turbine housing will be stamped inside the turbine housing inlet.  FYI the 400HP engine uses a 1.23 A/R turbine housing.   Everything else is the same.   

OK, I found the Turbine A/R embossed on the other side of the housing.  It is, indeed, a 1.39.  Other markings on this side are "M1" and "G."

Do those numbers on the plate map to something from Garrett?

... If you were up in Sumner,  I would have that turbo in pieces in 30 minutes..    I would recommend that you hot tank the turbine housing and blast it>>aluminum oxide.    I gather from looking at your 2005 pictures that your turbine housing is in decent shape.

Well, shoot -- we were just in Sumner a month ago.  Too bad the thing didn't break back then, but then again, that's par for the course.

I don't have any way to hot tank or bead blast the housing -- we're parked at a casino, and I don't have any equipment of that kind.  So this would definitely be a factor pushing me to find someone here who can do it for me.

With this all said, you really do need to find out what caused this failure.    If you can get the turbine housing off, it will show you and "us" what the turbine wheel blades look like.    These turbochargers do NOT break shafts on there own>  typically this type of failures is induced by something else>>  FOD impact on the turbine side or oil starvation.   I guess that's one of the reasons why I'm asking you to get the turbine housing off.   If you have rolled over or missing blades you have "deeper issues"   Clifford has eluded to this..    I want to rule  out further damage.   On the other board I seen your reply about the bearings and the previous turbo rebuild.   The bottom line is>>a faulty part or poor tolerance will have manifested itself sooner vs 4 years and "X" miles down later.

OK, just to be clear, I don't know what the history of this turbo is before I got it.  That was back in 2005 during my first in-frame; since then it has had ~70,000 miles put on it.  It's also passed a bunch of dirt -- the engine got in-framed a second time, but my recollection is that the turbo was inspected, cleaned, and re-used.  Since the markings are all identical to the 2005 photos I posted, I am certain this is at least the same housing;  I will have to dig up the invoice to see if the turbo got rebuilt in 2007 (40,000 miles ago).

Help me visualize, here:  what kind of things could cause FOD on the turbine?  Presumably, anything hitting the turbine would have to first pass through the exhaust valves -- wouldn't there then be symptoms of other problems, too?

Sean, you have my email address,  email me if you need help.   Give me a call if need be.

Thanks for the offer; I may need to take you up on it.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

[Zeroclearance]

Sean, this shows the factory Detroit cross to the Garrett part number.   Garrett is the OEM for the Detroit.
Thanks for posting the part number from your tag, it confirms all the parts given up above.

[Don Fairchild]

Sean,

The number for the hot side is on the other side of the hh. and stamped on the inside of the flange. I cant tell from the pick but you have probably a TV8511 with a 1.39 HH. You can change to a 1.23 HH with out any program changes. It will help your mid range and low end

If you need help with a turbo let me know, I can have it ups overnight to you.

Royaleagle; your turbo is a TV8511 the E is a R for reliabuilt. Zero the # you gave is a TV 8513 you can't change the HH on yours.

[Sean]

Another update:

First off, many, many thanks to all the folks who have come forward with advice, support, information, and outright offers of assistance, and especially Kevin ("zeroclearance") who is a turbocharger expert by trade and spent hours on the phone with me today talking me through various things.

I spent most of the morning on the phone trying to locate either a complete remanufactured turbo, or a new "cartridge" (entire center section, including turbine wheel, compressor wheel, shaft, bearings and bearing housing, and compressor backing plate, all factory assembled and balanced).  We nailed down a Reliabilt remanufactured unit early in the day, but it was in Denver, and, at ~65lbs, I was looking at a good deal of freight to get it here overnight.

In the meantime, Kevin made some rather convincing arguments in favor of disassembling the one I have and putting a new factory cartridge in.  For one, all the parts would be factory new and factory balanced, as opposed to a re-man where most of the parts are of unknown history and possibly only cursory inspection.  For another, removing the turbine housing would possibly reveal more information about the cause of the failure.

While Kevin (and others) were working on tracking down a cartridge, I made arrangements with local bus nut Eddie, a contact generously provided courtesy of Clifford ("luvrbus"), to come over to his place north of town and use his parts cleaner and bead-blaster to prep our existing housings. I then set to tearing the turbine side apart.

Notwithstanding having heard from several people that getting the turbine housing off would be the biggest challenge, possibly requiring a torch and a hammer (and so I had prepared by hauling out my propane torch and 2-lb deadblow), the thing fell apart in my hands as I undid the clamp.  That might explain the signs of exhaust blow-by we had seen aroung the clamp area.

The turbine wheel was extensively damaged, and, of course, we were looking for tell-tale signs of Foreign Object Debris (FOD) damage, which would indicate that bits of rings, or maybe even valves, were spitting out of the engine and caused the failure.  While the wheel damage was not inconsistent with FOD, there was no matching damage in the throat of the housing, and the bent vanes on the turbine might easily have come from impacting the housing after the shaft let go.  The only way to tell for sure is to pull the heads off, or put a new turbo on and start 'er up.  Another turbo will actually be less money than pulling the heads, so we have our fingers crossed that it is not FOD, and we're just going to slap a turbo on.

In the process of diagnosing all this, we put up a photo album showing the old turbo just before, and just after removing the turbine housing, including turbine wheel photos, here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/louise.hornor/July202009TurboInterior#

After nailing down plans to do the cleaning and bead-blasting, and almost past the deadline for ordering the Reliabilt today, I got a follow-up call from Kevin, who had discovered that completely new, factory balanced cartridges for this model are discontinued and no longer available.  I could have a Garrett OEM cartridge that was "partially remanufactured," or an aftermarket part of unknown alloy quality from Rotomaster, or a cartridge assembled by some guy in the Midwest out of new Garrett parts, all for the same price, around $800 or so delivered, with no warranty.

If I went that route, I would also still be faced with a couple hours work cleaning and media blasting the housings, and then I would have to assemble the whole thing correctly when I was done.  At this point, the Reliabilt, which came with a 12-month warranty and would cost me about $991 plus tax, after core, started to look like the better option.

We ended up ordering the Reliabilt from Stewart & Stevenson, but, instead of having it sent next-day UPS for $225, we are having it sent by bus.  If the Denver office got it in time, it should be at the Albuquerque office tomorrow, and shipping should be less than $80.

With any luck, I will be able to pick this up at S&S tomorrow morning, and have it back in the bus by the end of the day.  Worst case, we should have it sometime Wednesday.  I will carefully check oil supply and return lines for obstructions, and pre-lube the unit with STP before installing it.  Kevin has given me some explicit directions for breaking the unit in, which will keep us right here for several hours after installation.

I will post another update when the repair is complete and we know whether or not it is the final solution of this problem.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I hear the siren song of the casino buffet...

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com