Author Topic: lightning strike J4500 (Read 10672 times)

robertglines1 · « **on:** February 08, 2011, 06:35:51 PM »

Lightning strike on 2003 J4500. They have replaced computers and got running but went on first trip and quit on them. It is parked behind their shop as they have spent about all they want to find the problem. No visual damage. Can be bought 1/2 market value. Ideas? or run fast! Bob

luvrbus · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2011, 06:47:14 PM »

Those are nice buses Bob but if it has the CAN electrical system I would run those are a nightmare

good luck

robertglines1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2011, 06:51:07 PM »

probably why they want $95 Grand.

Busted Knuckle · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2011, 07:21:18 PM »

$95 Grand? I thought you said they would settle for half value!
If that's the case it's worth about $30 Grand - 1/2 = $15,000 !
Seriously someone is going to be married to that baby better to part it out and cut the losses! Or pick it up for like I say around $15,000 rip everything out and start with a new non-stock system no CAN wiring or fancy smancy crap just bare bones understandable pre 2010 engine / trans combo and do away with standard factory headache systems like OTR, Computer control AIR-RIDE and all that crap that is problem prone in the first place.

Then you can have a nice modern looking but still serviceable coach!

BK

Bob please tell me our mutual friend didn't get suckered into buying it in that condition!

robertglines1 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2011, 07:26:06 PM »

no. Just heard about it from a driver friend this am. Was under impression list was around 250 for it. 85,000 miles.I don't need no more elect detective work. I didn't tell Sean about it. Bob

Busted Knuckle · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2011, 07:37:04 PM »

OK well honestly if it was in perfect condition ready to be able to put in service it'd be worth about $225,000 in PERFECT condition retail price.

In fair condition about $175-200,000
and wholesale bad condition $50,000

But with what it is now it's worse than a wholesale bus and quite frankly in my opinion worse than a basket case! (who knows what is fried and what ain't and you talk'n serious $ to rip out and replace EVERYTHING electrical from components to wiring harness! Not to mention hrs & hrs of pure bus hating headaches!

BK

And please don't tell Sean about it he'd think it was a steal! And he already has his hands full refurbishing the H3-45 they had just got when I was up last!

buswarrior · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2011, 08:52:07 PM »

J model computer air ride?

I thought that was the E model?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Nellie Wilson · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:02:46 PM »

What's a J4500? What's a CAN electrical system? Not interested, just curious.

Nellie

PS. What's $225,000?

artvonne · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:46:02 PM »

If they spent a bunch of money and now decided to bail, you can bet they saw/found something nasty. My guess is it burned wiring which created a short, and possibly destroyed the entire electrical harness and quite possibly most if not all electrical parts and equipment. I would walk into it like an engine fire, bid accordingly, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I dont know about an MCI, but on a GMC the harness is behind the walls and ceiling. And in any case I doubt you can buy one.

Busted Knuckle · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:00:10 PM »

Quote from: buswarrior

J model computer air ride?

I thought that was the E model?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

BW you might be right! The J model is the one MCI I never done any work too except changed belts on beside the HWY one night about 3AM and then found out the fan drive box was locked up and what caused it to throw them in the first place! (but did get to ~~take~~ send the passengers to IA w/driver!

)

BK

Quote from: Nellie Wilson

What's a J4500? What's a CAN electrical system? Not interested, just curious.

Nellie

PS. What's $225,000?

Nellie your right you don't even wanna be interested in it!
A CAN electrical system is a complicated wiring set up that runs many signals through the same wires for different functions and very difficult to diagnose & repair when they have problems. (almost all the modern buses have them even SETRA and I hate them, but ya either play ball or go home when ya try'n to survive in the biz!)

And $225,000.00 is about $25,000.00 shy of what we have paid in payments on the 2 - 2005 Setra S427's we bought 2 yrs ago and still owe 6 more years on them.

BK

Busted Knuckle · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:36:19 PM »

Just for comparison this bus has been on the market for over a yr and is supposed to be in excellent shape! Of course the price has come down from what I first saw it @ then too! (nad he was offering free shipping @ onetime if it sold for like $350,000

)

BK

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-MCI-E4500-Motorcoach-Bus-sale-LOW-MILES-/320650963360?pt=Buses&hash=item4aa84969a0

Busted Knuckle · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:46:45 PM »

Or this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-MCI-E4500-Renaissance-Tour-Coach-Bus-1-Owner-NICE-/230577597704?pt=Buses&hash=item35af7eed08

BK

buswarrior · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2011, 10:48:44 PM »

58 seats?!?!?!?

And in the middle of the Pacific Ocean...

And trade for a nice D model???

I think the seller might be motivated...

I LOVE to drive a Renaissance, but keeping all the wheels pointing in the same direction and the electronics all speaking friendly to one another...

Ok, BK, let's go halves on it!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Nellie Wilson · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2011, 11:10:01 PM »

Geez Louise, BK -

That's a lot of bread! And you don't even look rich.

Why do they make this CAN thing? Sounds just awful to work on. 'Course, for me, a marker light is high science.

Thanks for the info.

Nellie

rv_safetyman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:09:43 AM »

Nellie, CAN systems have been around for several decades. All electronic engines use this technology. It is standardized by SAE (J1708 and J1939). DDEC I was the first CAN system (not a good system- was done before SAE standardized).

It is very reliable. Any Diesel tech today can work on them. Lots of debate about mechanical engines vs computer engines, but the fact is that mechanical engines are a dying breed.

Jim

Ed Hackenbruch · « **Reply #15 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:16:22 AM »

Nellie, give thanks that you have a mechanical engine!

Keep it simple.

There may be less of us Jim, but it seems to me that all of the dying or dead buses that i see along the road are electronic, as you well know.

Had to give you a little dig there from Sonny and me.

rv_safetyman · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:26:03 AM »

Ed, as you probably know, Sonnie is deep into a project to install an electronic engine in an Eagle

I am not sure that you can link the stalled buses to electronics. Indeed, my engine issues came for a mechanical problem. That said, I did have some electronic issues when I tried to mix old and new electronic components - but that was my problem and not the electronics.

Consider that the vast majority of class 7 and 8 trucks are electronic. If you were to look at detailed statistics, you would find that they are very reliable in general and even more reliable from an electronics standpoint.

Then look at the millions of cars today - all electronic in the last few years - that are way more complex than diesels, and their track record is pretty good.

Yes, I have had my share of "electronics" challenges. However, my bus is not "normal" nor am I

Besides, electronic engines allow you to have fun toys like my SilverLeaf.

Jim

Busted Knuckle · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:32:12 AM »

Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on February 09, 2011, 06:16:22 AM

Nellie, give thanks that you have a mechanical engine! Keep it simple. There may be less of us Jim, but it seems to me that all of the dying or dead buses that i see along the road are electronic, as you well know. Had to give you a little dig there from Sonny and me.

Ed,
You are correct! It's the newer buses that break down more! It's a proven fact that the electronics are a nightmare, and leave buses on the side of the road with no notice!
At least with the mechanical engines we were able to bypass this or use bailing wire, duct tape, chewing gum &/or the wrapper, and OLD DRIED OUT MCDONALD FRENCH FRIES to get them home. (long true story about the fries, I'll have to tell someday later after I get the story refreshed from mom, dad, & my uncle Robert)

While a new electric bus will require a wrecker and hrs & hrs on end in a shop then in the end when they can't find the actual "problem" or short they just splice in a new wire! (yeah I know BTDT paid $800 for the wrecker and $4000 to the shop for a 48' piece of wire to be run from the ignition switch to the DDEC unit! after almost 3 weeks of diagnostics and not able to find/fix it right!)

But the major players in transportation have the little guys over a barrel by getting the people who do large size contracts to demand bus no older than 3-5 yrs old. So while the older more reliable buses see less & less use the newer ones leave more people stranded! (makes sense doesn't it?)

BK

bevans6 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:43:29 AM »

Nellie, here is interesting reading if you want to become a CAN expert...very boring it you couldn't care less....

http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm

Basically, rather than having a whole wack of individual wires and switches for all the stuff in a car, bus or truck, everything has a little computer in it. The CAN system (Controller Area Network) is like an Ethernet network to connect up all the computers in the vehicle and let them all talk to each other using packet based digital communication, exactly like how your computer talks to the Internet. One set of twisted pair wires replaces hundreds of individual connections. Basically all modern production vehicles use it, including a lot of motorcycles. The reason it's hard to fix is that if everything is connected, one thing breaking can break the whole mess. Like a corroded wire connection, or a bad computer chip in something.

Brian

buswarrior · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:52:58 AM »

wiring integrity will be the future of bus conversions far more than mechanical issues.

Bad trouble shooting continues to plague the transportation industry.

Darn hard to find an efficient analyzer.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

bevans6 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:57:24 AM »

When I was working for the cable TV company, (BW will know it, it starts with a Rog...) and we were rolling out digital cable for the first time, the tech's had to go out and "harden" the network. That was going along with a ladder and climbing up to all the amplifiers and connectors, undoing them, and doing them back up with corrosion protecting goo on them. Corrosion, pinched wires, bad grounds will kill a system like that every time.

Brian

Nellie Wilson · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2011, 11:52:12 PM »

Thanks for all the info! Always learn something new from you guys (new to me, anyway). I'll check that link, Bev... maybe I'll learn enough to sound cluey?

just gotta remember, Controller Area Network... Controller Area Network... Controller Area Net...

Nellie

Bob Belter · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2011, 03:15:33 AM »

Ahoy, BusFolk,

Lightning strike on an '03 bus??? And now the bus electric system is 'blown'

Sheeesh, someone must not have paid attention during design. Airplane are struck often, modern ones and old ones, and they keep going just fine, albeit it is a BIG thrill --(I've been there in an old airplane).

Enjoy /s/ Bob

JWallin · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2011, 04:34:17 AM »

Also, most luxury vehicles today use a CAN physical layer running the J1850 protocol. Very reliable system.

artvonne · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2011, 09:30:16 AM »

Quote from: Bob Belter on February 12, 2011, 03:15:33 AM

Airplane are struck often, modern ones and old ones, and they keep going just fine, albeit it is a BIG thrill --(I've been there in an old airplane).

Enjoy /s/ Bob

Aircraft avionics are some of the most expensive electronics and electrical systems you'll find. To build a Bus with an electrical system that uses aviation grade electronics and wiring practices would likely double the Buses cost. And dont kid yourself that aircraft are entirely hardened to lightning strikes. It can and has done a lot of damage.

pipopak · « **Reply #25 on:** February 13, 2011, 09:47:49 AM »

The part about expensive aircraft parts made me laugh. I used to work at an helicopter repair station and parts dealership. Parts are usually expensive due to liability insurance requirements, not quality. IE: Robinson helicopters use standard DEXRON II oil, the stuff you buy at the corner gas station for $2 a bottle, but from a Robinson dealer will be at least $13 ea ( EXACT SAME OIL IN THE EXACT SAME BOTTLE, but with a 1 cent sticker saying that was certified by Robinson ). So I am not impressed with "aviation quality" anymore!.

Jriddle · « **Reply #26 on:** February 13, 2011, 09:57:14 AM »

Lightning will pass through an airplane while flying but the plane is not grounded. That may be the reason for no damage. The part about quality of aircraft parts being better is just to make everyone feel good. The same bearings roll down the same assembly line the only difference is the aircraft part has a paper trail in case the part is involved in an aircraft crash.

A&P

John

ArtGill · « **Reply #27 on:** February 13, 2011, 10:05:47 AM »

If the coach can be bought at a price that will allow you to replace and program all the CAN I/O boxes and the engine/transmission computers. Then you could have a good buy and you would know how the system works. In electronics we call it the "shotgun approach". So, you could get a real nice shell for a great price. You will be striping the interior out anyway and that should make the job easier.

Just my thoughts.
Art

rv_safetyman · « **Reply #28 on:** February 13, 2011, 10:09:48 AM »

Since this thread has drifted a bit to a CAN technology discussion, I thought that I should address a post that was made earlier by JWallin:

Quote

Also, most luxury vehicles today use a CAN physical layer running the J1850 protocol. Very reliable system.

I am not up on all of my SAE protocols, or what is done on every coach, but the industry seems to have established a standard based on J1939 but modified a bit. The source of this standard is a group of manufacturers (both suppliers and coach manufacturers) and their website is:

http://www.rv-c.com/?q=node/78

I chose that page since it gives a bit of background. The group has been working together for several years and in May of 2010 they published their standard (all 207 pages):

http://www.rv-c.com/files/RV-C%20Specification.pdf

Martin Perlot of SilverLeaf is one of the major contributors. I have consulted with him as we explored redesigning our fire detection/suppression system so that it would be compatible with Coach display systems. The road map is very well spelled out for any vendor who wants to supply a product that "talks" to the coach system. In our case, we would have to redesign the system with a new micro-controller that has can communication capability. Unfortunately, that requires a major redesign for us and the market is just not there!!

Jim

luvrbus · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2011, 10:26:24 AM »

You guys need to check the price from MCI for a complete CAN wiring harness for a J4500 I was checking on one for a J4500 I was thinking about buying that was in need of one you won't believe the price wow no way would I pay 95,000 and that bus may need one.Fwiw the one on our Lexus went out covered under warranty (TG) was over 12 grand with labor.
Hey Jim, Sonnie said you be sure to tell people that is not his bus lol

good luck

artvonne · « **Reply #30 on:** February 13, 2011, 11:26:46 AM »

A bearing used in a Cessna might be the same bearing with the same part number you would find in a Ford, but it was washed, microscoped, x-rayed, and re lubed with aviation grade lubricants. Not exactly the same part IMHO.

Jriddle · « **Reply #31 on:** February 13, 2011, 11:42:33 AM »

Quote from: artvonne on February 13, 2011, 11:26:46 AM

A bearing used in a Cessna might be the same bearing with the same part number you would find in a Ford, but it was washed, microscoped, x-rayed, and re lubed with aviation grade lubricants. Not exactly the same part IMHO.

You are right that is part of the paper trail for aircraft parts. I would go as far to say that one could tract this bearing to the batch of metal it was poured from. I am not sure this extra would justify the cost in a coach.

IMHO
John

rv_safetyman · « **Reply #32 on:** February 13, 2011, 12:28:56 PM »

By Clifford:

Quote

Hey Jim, Sonnie said you be sure to tell people that is not his bus lol

This humor may be lost on some of you. Several years ago Sonnie Gray and I developed an engine conversion seminar that we presented at Jack and Paula Conrad's rally a couple of times. Also did a minor version at BusN USA.

We livened up the presentation by playing off of our mechanical vs electronic engine preferences. Sonnie was squarely on the mechanical side and I presented the benefits of the electronic engine. We had a ton of fun with that "debate".

When I had all the problems getting my second Series 60 engine running correctly, Sonnie gave me a lot of grief.

Now it is my turn to give him grief. He is doing an engine conversion project for a customer and it is an electronic engine with an electronic automated manual transmission.

No matter what, we will have fun at each other's expense (to be sure, good fun

).

Jim

Boomer · « **Reply #33 on:** February 13, 2011, 04:48:19 PM »

Kinda makes what I paid for my ISM and Allison harnesses seem cheap.