Waste Motor Oil for fuel.

[happycamperbrat]

How much does it cost to have it tested? If it were me, I would get enough to make a couple hundred gallons of blend, settle and filter the wmo. And then in separate test jars put a 90-10, 70-30 and a 50-50 "then" go have those jars tested. If the expense of testing and all other things worked out, then run the wmo you have blended according to how the test came out until it was all gone. Each time you have enough for a couple hundred gallons, do the blend and the test again, then run it. You know enough about engines and stuff that you could examine your injectors and keep a close eye on the condition of your engine as long as you stayed on top of the blending and testing....

[wal1809]

One of the tests i would add is specific gravity.  You can pourchase the guage pretty cheap.

[luvrbus]

This topic does make for good reading but I have a question do any of you guys know how many HP you get from a gallon of WVO or the blend.
Just so you know my side of this story not that it means anything there would be no way I ran the used engine oil in a DD section 13 of the DD bible is very clear about the fuel requirements for a DD and not knowing much about WVO but the little I do know I cannot see where WVO can meet that requirement either,
 I do like pioneers that get outside the box the world would not be much without you guy's and girls   


good luck

[JohnEd]

T,

There is a definite limit on how much gasoline you can put into a D and not suffer consequences.  Those limits seem to be 10% in the summer and 20% in the winter when blended with MO if the blend isn't heated and I have yet to read of anyone heating their fuel.  They typically use a single tank and if their engines overheat and loose power they increase the MO they have in concentration and if they get hard starts and smoke they add RUG to increase the % concentration.  That's the performance angle.

Using the RUG at the processing outset is a large aid in the filtering and facilitates the settling.  That isn't the purpose in the blend but it is a serious side beni.  The purpose is to reduce viscosity at ambient temps.  Given that they use less RUG in the summer it follows that they would need less still if the Blend were heated as we do the WVO.

When you drain your oil the first thing you do with it is have it tested/analyzed.  That test is a huge indicator of whether you will be able to complete your next trip.  If you were going to use that WMO as a fuel for anything down the line you would want to know it's suitability.  I think the testing is already being done on your feed stock if you have a good source.  Your feed stock should be an accumulation of tested batches.  Big "IF" there.  You would have to be very fortunate in your circumstances to cover some of these angles.  Still, your idea of accumulating a large batch and having that tested prior to doing any further testing sure has merit.  The last test I had run was $30.

Your right about needing to be able to evaluate the consequences of using this stuff as a fuel and be doing that "while" you are testing.  I know "something" about engines and stuff but I don't think I know enuf to properly evaluate the affects of the fuel.  I might be clever enuf to collect the info/data needed to do that but somebody smart and experienced would need to evaluate it.  I don't think this fuel has much promise for any that aren't capable of monitoring quality and evaluation.  There is just too much at stake.

The idea may have merit as a fuel for the genny.  Only maybe. The blend looks to cost about $.50/gal.  How much would you burn if you could get fuel for that price that was viable?  Generators are selling for a few thousand new and I guess you could fix one for a lot less so maybe that is a option for testing  and a possible use.

All of this is really "iffy" as the feed stock varies in quality and the engine may or may not be suitable.  It will be difficult to draw conclusions.  But, here is what I expect to learn at the minimum...what is the improvement to the WMO by the RUG dilution and settling and what is the actual chemical make up of the final blend.  At the least that is entertaining.

Hope that cleared up some of it for you, T,  but honestly I am out of my depth and any conclusion or interpretations need evaluated by experts.  What I can say is that "will" it work is moot cause lots of people out there are using it as a fuel and have been doing so for many thousands of miles for a long time.

John

[Paso One]

I have a little story regarding producing Diesel from waste motor oil.

I purchase 5 acres of land, at the time of purchase, on the property was a small waste  oil refinery that re cracked the oil. To produce  # 2 diesel
The  previous owner of the property Orville Middleton designed and developed this refinery. He is still alive and well at 90 years.  He produced a very good quality diesel that he uses in all his diesel vehicles. Dodge truck with a cummins, a VW Jetta, Massey tractor,  He brags that he hasn't bought fuel for the last 10 years. He has never had a engine failure or damaged engines from the old plant.  I once filled up a fuel tank on a  966 Cat loader with a 3 yard bucket and worked in the yard for 8 hours I never notice any performance issues in that time, I did however notice a different " smell " from the exhaust.

He sold the plant and it was moved to Manitoba and re assembled. The Manitoba Government and a private company have entered into a joint venture to "deal" with all the waste motor oil in the Province.

I think this will be an up and coming way to recycle used motor oil in an environmental friendly manner.
this joint project is accumulating the used oil from all over the Province.  The plant i believe was capable of producing 3000 gallons an hour.

I will post some pictures of the Plant when I bought the land and look for the web site of the newly formed company in Manitoba that is re cracking the oil.

www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/waste-oil-refinery-to-open-here-75724382.html

www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/waste-oil-refinery-eyes-turning-plastic-bags-into

[wal1809]

Wow!  That is neat to see.  What does each piece do?  What does it do to the motor oil and where does the waste go?  Thank you for sharing.

[wal1809]

This topic does make for good reading but I have a question do any of you guys know how many HP you get from a gallon of WVO or the blend.
Just so you know my side of this story not that it means anything there would be no way I ran the used engine oil in a DD section 13 of the DD bible is very clear about the fuel requirements for a DD and not knowing much about WVO but the little I do know I cannot see where WVO can meet that requirement either,
 I do like pioneers that get outside the box the world would not be much without you guy's and girls   


good luck

Thank you for joining in the fracus here luvrbus.  Where does waste vegetable oil stray off of Detroit's requirements?  Is it viscosity, esters, ash maybe?  ?I ask because I am sitting here in Fort Worth with a dirty car.  It used to get a mixture of dirt and oil from being towed.  Not it has a real fine powder like ash that will come off with just wiping it.  Very pdd t what I am used to, ut then again I am a weird person ;Db

[Paso One]

Wow!  That is neat to see.  What does each piece do?  What does it do to the motor oil and where does the waste go?  Thank you for sharing.

One of the interesting things to me was one of the tanks to the left side of the picture is the recepticle for catching  the "sweat"  That "Sweat "  is gasoline. ( not sure what he did with that )

The blue tank is actually the kettle that heats the oil till it "cracks " and apparently in the refining world that is all they do ??

The product is amazingly clear compared to what WMO looks like.

[JohnEd]

This topic does make for good reading but I have a question do any of you guys know how many HP you get from a gallon of WVO or the blend.
Just so you know my side of this story not that it means anything there would be no way I ran the used engine oil in a DD section 13 of the DD bible is very clear about the fuel requirements for a DD and not knowing much about WVO but the little I do know I cannot see where WVO can meet that requirement either,
 I do like pioneers that get outside the box the world would not be much without you guy's and girls  
good luck

To be absolutely CLEAR.     I feel exactly the same way.   MOSTLY.

It isn't HP that you can compare.  Rather, it's BTUs.   HP has a rate associated with it.  BTU is a content kind thing.... like a gallon is.

John

[JohnEd]

One of the interesting things to me was one of the tanks to the left side of the picture is the recepticle for catching  the "sweat"  That "Sweat "  is gasoline. ( not sure what he did with that )

The blue tank is actually the kettle that heats the oil till it "cracks " and apparently in the refining world that is all they do ??

The product is amazingly clear compared to what WMO looks like.
[/quote]

Coming from Pennsylvania and near Drake's ville, the sight of the first oil well in the USA, we got some of this stuff in Pa. history.  At the time they wanted the oil to lube the gears of the steam engines that powered the industrial revolution.  D and gasoline were both an annoyance and a disposal problem back then.  Having as a very small boy driven thru Oil City Pa., I can tell you that I think they sprayed the countryside and city with all the waste that came out of those old timey refineries.  At least it looked like they did.


Paso,

Thank you so very much for sharing all that.  It is a terrific story and an incentive for us all.  Canada, huh?  Canada, you say?  They use trains up there and have not a dribble of WMO compared to our nation.  Anybody ever heard of "cracking" WMO down here?  Canadians have even stricter EPA type rules up there, right?  They still haven't found a use for our acid rain, far as I've heard.  Sorry, Canada.  You are a great example for your neighbors to the south.

John

[JohnEd]

I think we may be closing in on the final word and the "real" reasons.  If high levels of sulfur turn to abrasive ash when combusted and that ash accelerates top end wear and general deterioration then we have the problem identified,,,,sulfur content.  Or at least one and that is a start.  That still has to be verified as the reason and I think an analysis is the answer to that.

Didn't the fed, not to awful long ago, call for the virtual elimination of sulfur from D fuel?  I never understood why they did that.  More importantly, why did we never hear of this UP-SIDE of decreasing engine wear.  Starting to sound like a political question...huh?  And the info I got was that the low sulfur fuel needed to have a lubricant asses so the "trucker" on the street was dumping in MO to regain lubricity.

Ever hear that using regular oil instead of cutting oil will dull a bit much quicker than running it dry?  I did and the source can not be challenged.  Any correlation to this discussion is iffy.  But??



Clifford,

You quoted DD manual spec for fuel.  Can you share that spec with us or at least cite the sulfur content limit?

Thanks all,


John

[HighTechRedneck]

The DD manual on lubricants & fuel is here:  http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/lube-oil-fuel-requirements.pdf

The fuel section starts on page 27.

Only problem is that they are grouping the two strokes in with the modern engines that are built specifically to require modern reduced sulfur standards. So even though it indicates that the standards also apply to the two strokes, that isn't a reasonable indication of what they were built to be able to use.  When they were in full production for commercial use, diesel fuel had a full dose of sulfur.

There are statements in there that are noteworthy, but there again may have more to do with the modern engines than the two strokes given successes some are having with running bioD, WVO, etc.  Hard to say.

Page 29, regarding BioD & WVO:

Detroit Diesel Corporation highly recommends biodiesel fuels made from soybean or rapeseed oil
through the proper transesterification reaction process. Other feedstock source of biodiesel fuels
such as animal fat and used cooking oils are not recommended by DDC.

Page 33, regarding WMO:

The following fuel additives are NOT allowed:

Used Lubricating Oil – Detroit Diesel specifically prohibits the use of drained lubricating oil in
diesel fuel. Used lubricating oil contains combustion acids and particulate materials, which erode
injector components, resulting in loss of power and increased exhaust emissions.

Of course, some of the refining/filtering methods described in this thread may alleviate some of that.  Not so sure about the acids, it may well take the refining/cracking method to get those out.  It might be helpful to take a PH reading on it before using it.

All that said, it is in DD's best interest to only recommend & support the use of fuels that have been thoroughly tested and are refined to highly regulated standards.  I don't think they test anything separately for the two strokes anymore.  A lab analysis of the fuels being home brewed might yield some interesting results.  If it meets the fuel specs except for sulfur, has a near neutral PH, and the sulfur is within the levels that it was before they started cutting it out, then it might be fine for the old two strokes.

[Jeremy]

'Re-cracking' is an interesting idea and I can certainly see how it would be the ultimate way of getting 'pure' oil out of old contaminated stuff, just as boiling and re-condensing dirty water will give clean water.

I'm a bit confused about the "producing Diesel from waste motor oil" statement though. I'm certainly no chemist, but I understood a cracking tower to work on the principle that at different heights on the tower the crude oil would condense out into components of different weights - everything from tar at the bottom to the lightest and most volatile stuff at the top. Presumably then, engine oil and diesel condense out at different points, with the lighter diesel going higher up the tower. So by definition there is no 'diesel' left in the engine oil when it is originally cracked. So how can you get diesel out of the engine oil by re-cracking it later?

If (as I suspect), 're-cracking' is more of a purification thing, it would be interesting to know how technically superior it is as a process than the best 'mechanical' purification processes (ie. filtering, centrifuging etc). Also taking into account the (presumably large) energy input required in the re-cracking process.

Jeremy

[JohnEd]

Mike,

That is a wonderful and coherent comment and info.  There are ways to neutralize the PH and there must be ways to deplete the sulfur....if that shows to be required.  You have pointed a way to go and the data that needs to be collected.  Hah, there is a reason you get paid the BIG BUCKS...right?

Thank you very much.  In all sincerity

John

[luvrbus]

Section 13.3 pages 6 and 7 under fuel selection in the DD bible will tell you everything you need to know about fuel for a 2 stroke


good luck