Crown super coach on govdeals

[B_K]

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=14&acctID=10068

[HB of CJ]

Some clarifications based upon my limited remaining Crown expertise.  Probably a Fuller T905D or possibly a Fuller T11605D five, (5) speed manual and not a Spicer.

Flat windshield glass which is good.  Cheap replacement costs.  Most likely a rear trunk model.  That means the frame rails stop at the rear suspension and not the bumper.

That is very good and desirable because most 10 wheelers had that big rear trunk plus it opens up much space for that big APU or whatever you want do to with that space.

Unknown suspension type or other factory options or later district add ones.  Probably a Big Cam 270 or 300 Cummins engine.  Probably 3.70 or possibly 3.55 rear gears.

Do the math.  About 68 to 72 mph at 2100 rpm.  Possibly 3.55 gears but unlikely.  76 mph. Possibly a district major overhaul which would be good.  Or possibly not either.

Unknown frame cracks behind the drivers?  Unknown engine or tranny condition.  Jake?  Unknown.  Unless somebody knows the maintenance history, this is a crap shoot.

If somebody could hire for a good retro heavy truck mechanic for a pre inspection and spend some money this might be a good deal.  Or a money pit. Crowns Forever!  

EDITED:  They placed the max stupid copy right notice right along the body where I need to see.  Very stupid on their part.  Very stupid indeed.  How can I see anything?

Probably either a 270 or maybe a 290 Cummins.  Small radiator cut outs.  Not a 300 or 335.  I also can not see exactly where the gas cap is.  I am guessing here.  RR or LR.

A rear mounted 100 gallon gas tank behind the drivers?  Some help here please.  This would be good.  Would allow cheaper better conversion into a good Bus Conversion.

Other than that very little to go on.  If you are interested, try contacting the sellers.  I would imagine they want to sell that Crown.  Sorry but those days are behind me.

MORE EDITING:  This is a post 1977 Crown.  It has the 4130 Chrome Molly Roll bars every 17 inches across the roof.  This Crown will go in at about 26-28,000 pounds empty.

Heavily reinforced body.  Reinforced frame.  Crown was still doing silly great engineering things at this time.  This Crown may have everything you need indeed.

Probably the sweet spot of the L.A. CA. site production era.  Before Chino CA.  If you are looking for that perfect Crown 10 wheeler this may be you last chance.  Just me.

Good luck and good buying.  A 100 mph Crown Supercoach Bus Conversions sounds so good to me.  Stops on a dime.  Out corners most passenger cars.  Yep.  The very best.

It would be sossss easy to get that 100 mph.  A Cummins BC NTC is so easy to upgrade to about 450 hp using cheap used factory parts.  A Fuller TO14707 sounds perfect.

A seven speed overdrive Fuller short tranny easily available for you dummies.  Also an over drive whatever 9 speed overdrive would work also.  High speed reverse gear.

[HB of CJ]

I made more inquires.  Stay away.  Wiped out Camshaft lobe.  Engine is toast.  Consider major bucks for a MAJOR re build.  That cam lobe material went somewhere.

No point continuing.  Even a owner done rebuild would be a minimum of $5000 bucks.  More if upgrading to a 444 or 475 Big Cam.  $More$ for more power than that.

That plus that lousy five speed Fuller would have to go for a seven or nine speed overdrive.  That plus NEW tires.  That plus raising the roof.  Too much money needed.

Sorry to say that Crown guys will NOT be bidding on that coach.  Probably will go for five bucks and then to the crusher.  Sad but true.  Crown days are ending.  I mourn.

   

[TomC]

The engine has an aftercooler on it, so it is at least a 290hp, maybe turned up to 350hp. And if you rebuild it (which it is relatively cheap to do-as said before, about $5,000 which is cheap. If $5,000 scares you, then move away from buses), you'll have a great running bus. Change to a 9 or 10spd overdrive.
The rear suspension looks like air since one picture showing the rear center strut did not have leaf springs on it. I still say a great coach for someone to convert-even with the engine problems. Good Luck, TomC

[DoubleEagle]

Probably will go for five bucks and then to the crusher.  Sad but true.  Crown days are ending.  I mourn.

Strange that they are not happy with the current bid of $3501 not meeting the reserve. They seem to think it is worth a bit.

[HB of CJ]

The Reserve is that high?  I did not spend that much time looking at their site.  Does the Crown start, run and drive?  If so, for how long?  I wish I had the money to bid on that thing.

How long would that Cummins run with the bad cam shaft lobe?  What CAUSED the lobe to fail?  This Crown might work for somebody with a minimum of 25 grand to put into it.  Otherwise?

Or ... if inspected and found to be sound other than the engine would it make a good candidate for that ultimate high performance Bus Conversion?  Dunno that.  Lots of money needed.

One would have to be there with their hired good friend retro heavy equipment mechanic and give the old girl a two hour 300 point inspection.  Then decide.  A Crap shoot right now.

Sad.  Crowns are leaving us.  We did not leave them.  

Edited Extra:  I meant frame cracks just in front of the drivers ... not behind.  Opps.

[windtrader]

Just curious, is there something special about this Crown school bus? Seems like a lot of interest given there are tons of old schoolies for sale.

[HB of CJ]

Long Post ...

Because in their time years ago they were the very best.  The best.  Better than another other bus.  Any other bus.  But ... they also cost twice to three times as much.

Bonded aluminum body to a custom 4130 deep box frame.  Your choice of engines.  Usually Cummins or Detroit pancake engines.  Your choice of manual trannies.

Usually Fullers.  Early versions usually Spicers (s/p?).  My daily driver back in 1970 was a 1963 Crown Supercoach 10 wheeler.  300hp 743 Cummins.  Jake.  Ten speed.

I ran the Ridge Route North both directions every day.  Depending upon the kid load out I could come down the hill at 35 mph and never touch the brakes.  Jake Brake.

In the winter time with the tandems locked up WITHOUT chains I could plow snow.  Saved time.  But on glare ice you had to be careful.  Easy to slide.  Frazier Park CA.

Seventy five mph EASY.  The mill was in the middle.  If memory serves mine had 8x16 front brakes and four 10x16 rear brakes.  Stopped on a dime.  Low center of gravity.

Not sure about the drum brake size.  Might have been 16.5 also.  Compare with a 4106.  A negative was the THEN all leaf spring suspension.  A stiff road feel.  Ouch!

Would do twisty mountain roads so fast the kids screamed.  The Jake made them laugh.  A 20 year 200,000 mile factory guarantee bumper to bumper parts/labor.

Some of the older Crowns easily make 500,000 miles.  Some more.  In the late 1970s early 1980s air conditioning, air suspension and auto trannies became popular.

School district bean counters nixed new Crown purchases.  They wanted the quick cheap cost per mile.  Not trucker oriented with overall long service life cost per mile.

Crown went broke.  Too much quality.  Too expensive.  They were mostly a West Coast CA thing.  Some in other districts.  You felt like you were driving a sports car.

All gone with the wind now.  CARB did them in.  Stupid pollution laws in CA.  Probably nobody will buy that Crown.  You will probably need a get out of Dodge trip permit.

Later I owned VIN 37317.  A 1974 ten wheeler.  Actually took her onto the hard packed BEACH sand just South of Crescent Beach CA.  Yep. Try that with a MCI or GMC.

In SW OR USA in 9" of snow I could do donuts, browdies and boot legger high speed reverse turns.  High range reverse gear.  RTO910.  No chains. Open field.  Yep.

Crowns are special.  A dying breed.  Soon none in service in CA.  Quite a few still running or parked as Bus Conversions.  Be fun to do a Google search on survivors.

Crowns Forever.  Thank you.  I have not said that in quite awhile.   

[chessie4905]

Here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=crown+bus+conversions&oq=crown+bus+conversions&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60j0.18300j0j7&client=tablet-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[Iceni John]

I really like Crowns (obviously!), but I'm the first to admit that doing a serious full conversion to a mid-engine Crown or Gillig would be a lot more challenging than to a rear-engine bus.   That's precisely why I chose a RE Crown  -  all the legendary build quality, but less of the conversion difficulties.   A middie has the engine and transmission where you would usually have water and waste tanks, making toilet and shower plumbing an interesting exercise.   Having a large rear trunk doesn't really make up for not having much usable underfloor storage.   So saying, plenty of folk have done very good conversions on middie Crowns and Gilligs, so it's certainly possible for someone with a lot of determination and imagination.   However, mid-engine buses drive superbly, with all that weight down low between the axles  -  I think that's what sports car designers are always trying to emulate!   A 40-foot Crown with two driven axles (for snow or sand) and a big grunty Cummins 855 and 10-speed is a true driver's bus, quick off the line and quick handling, and with Crown's big brakes quick stopping as well.

There's already quite a few good Crowns coming up for sale, and there will be more due to CARB, but this one on GovDeals doesn't strike me as a bargain if its engine needs major work.   Mind you, the Facebook side of the Crown Coach Junkies group seems to be buying all they can at this time, so you'd better hurry while stocks last!

John 

[Jeremy]

My bus is mid-engined (and has a conventional chassis, which I assume the Crowns also do), and there's a lot more space left-over underneath than you'd think. The engine and gearbox sit entirely within the chassis frame rails and there are still factory baggage bays running down the full length of the bus on one side; on the other side the area is left open for engine access and storage of the spare wheel, although there is also fair bit of dead space at either end of this this area and my generator and waste tanks will be installed here.

Inside my bus there is a dropped central aisle, which on the face of it is a nuisance when it comes to the conversion because it needs to be boarded-across in order to create a flat floor - however it's a bit of a blessing in disguise as it provides an ideal front-to-back conduit for plumbing and electrical stuff, and also in my case the mechanisms for the slide-outs. There are hatches all along the aisle floor which provide access to the top of the engine and gearbox, and also the large area above the rear axle which wouldn't ordinarily be accessible at all. This is where the factory installs the chassis batteries and which now also holds my house batteries and also a large calorifier tank and the Webasto etc. To rear of this area is another dead space immediately behind the rear wheels, which will become home to my fresh water tanks (one on each side).

So while having a mid-engine layout does mean you do lose those large full-width baggage bays I think in conversion terms it's not nearly as bad as many people suppose - in fact apart from my inverter set-up I won't be installing any conversion stuff in the baggage bays at all.

Jeremy

[Iceni John]

Jeremy, doesn't your bus have an upright engine?   You say it sits entirely between the frame rails.   Crown's engines are laid over at about 80 degrees from vertical so they sit asymmetric relative to the bus's longitudinal centerline  -  I can't remember if their valve covers are on the right or left side.   There is no continuous luggage bay on one side like you have, just a few small areas that can be repurposed for storage.   Another difference is that the Crown and Gillig middies have side radiators behind the driver-side front wheels, so that's more space needed for them;  don't buses like yours have radiators under the frame rails or in the front?

There are rumors of a middie Crown that someone has repowered with an upright Cummins 8.3, but nobody has seen it or taken photos of it, so who knows?   The big Cummins 743 and 855 are too high for that, and even a Detroit 6L71 is probably taller than your engine, thus the pancake engines here.

John

[Jeremy]

Ah, yes, fair enough, I wasn't aware of those differences. Yes my engine just sits vertically, and is a straight-6 (albeit with a turbo on the side) so is quite narrow too.

There's just a single radiator on my bus, mounted between the frame rails above and behind the front axle

Jeremy

[HB of CJ]

If you have lots and lots of money, talent and time, all sorts of things are possible with a Crown mid engine bus.  Most of the current manufactures can provide a modern smog legal computerized big mill in a pancake configuration.

High altitude hard rock mining ore car tractors.  It believe Detroit Diesel and Cat can do this.  Do not know exactly about Cummins or Volvo and etc..  The big New World 6 speed double overdrive Allisions would be a good match.

If you really want 1000 hp and 140 mph and a new world speed Bus Conversion record, that front right side trunk can be re done into a required second big radiator.  We had much fun sketching various Bus Conversions.

But, old age entered into it and some portfolio reversals.  I sold the Crown.  Cried.  If one has an extra $100,000 available and wants some fun and madness, just about anything is possible.  But ... hard to convert into a RV.

Like already said, very little underneath room for the various needful things.  But ... if you are happy with just 100 US gallons of fuel and 50 gals of water and a total of 60 gals or so holding, lots of engineering options open up.

All under the floor.  Some of the work up sketches had the weights and balances very close to ideal.  This was with the 3 axle 10 wheeler chassis, which is practically a dump or logging truck with a bus body on top.  Very fun.

Seems the math works out to about only 400-450 hp sustainable with the factory big radiator.  Not enough air flow through that side mounted radiator.  But my old Crown (37317) would go 85 flat and level with no wind.

Only a Small Cam 855 Cummins 250.  No turbo.  The best design was an all electric no propane version which weighed in at about 36,500 pounds.  With 400 road hp it probably would have done at least 90?  Who knows.

Long ago, far away.  Time to let go.  Crowns Forever!   

[Bus Lurker]

Crowns forever indeed!  I am familiar with the 10 wheeler Crowns that the Oxnard School District had in their fleet; they were a thing of beauty.  When I would see one of them on the road, I would roll down my window to listen to the engine and the driver shifting.

If Crown was still in business, they would likely find a clean engine to keep the buses going forever.  The Crown chassis is bullet proof.  As I recall, Crown had a program that allowed the school districts to take their buses to the Crown factory in Los Angeles or Chino to have them completely gone through mechanically, seats repaired, and new paint job.  When Crown finished refurbishing a bus they looked brand new inside and outside.  It was financially feasible to keep the Crown buses going instead of buying new buses.

What a shame to see the Crowns go!

Mike

Mike     

[windtrader]

Well, some folks appreciate the Crowns. SOLD - out the door $6k. lots of money these days for a 30 year schoolie.

As for adding a bit of extra boost to get it up to speed, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkOOt_Sf68

[CrabbyMilton]

Interesting perspective. I agree that if they were still building skoolies, they would have had the modern power trains but where I would beg to differ is that they likely may have phased out the mid engine version and concentrated on the the rear engine since they had an updated version toward the very end that was indeed a handsome model. But, the market moved toward the lower cost shorter life skoolies.
Now a question for you CROWN experts out there: How many CROWNS were sold in the midwest and east coast?
If so, how did they hold up to harsh winters since most were sold on the west coast?

[Oonrahnjay]

  ...  As for adding a bit of extra boost to get it up to speed, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkOOt_Sf68 

      Where do you find school bus tires good for 300 MPH?

[HB of CJ]

How many Crowns sold in total as schoolies?  Dunno.  Crown also made special weird stuff including weirds, fire apparatus, mobile libraries, medical vans, military, etc..  Each practically hand built.

In total?  You will get different numbers.  I was told around 5500 but that might be wrong.  Started around 1949?  Ended 1991.  There are many websites discussing Crown Supercoaches. ... 

www.crowncoach.com?

www.crowncoachjunkies.com?

Try a Google search?

[Iceni John]

Now a question for you CROWN experts out there: How many CROWNS were sold in the midwest and east coast?
If so, how did they hold up to harsh winters since most were sold on the west coast?

For school buses, essentially zero.   AZ and ID had a few, but they were essentially a Southern California bus, with some in OR and WA.   Even Northern CA had fewer Crowns then SoCal, because Gillig had more market share there.   Crown did build some Fire Coaches for non-CA agencies, but again they were mainly for the left coast.   Highway Post Offices were used further afield, as were the TV production vehicles and tour buses, but compared to MCI their numbers were much smaller.

Regarding holding up to harsh eastern winters and salted roads, they had mostly aluminum body panels, and their frame rails and understructure were thoroughly treated with a tough tar-like coating;  on my bus, albeit a CA bus all its life, it is still as as fresh as the day it came from the factory.   I see pictures of mid-West and Eastern Blue Bird and Thomas buses on Skoolie.net that are badly deteriorated by severe underbody rusting, with little evidence of any real factory corrosion protection.

A Crown or Gillig quite simply was overkill for most non-West Coast areas.   Who needs a school bus with a 290HP Cummins 855 and 3-stage Jake in Nebraska or Kansas or Florida?!   When some CA school districts retired their faithful Crowns after many hundreds of thousands of miles, they quickly realized why the generic eastern-built disposabuses were so cheap  - they sometimes couldn't even climb the same steep high-altitude grades at all with a full load of sprogs on board, especially in icy winters, that their Crowns could easily manage every day without fail.   Some of the CA desert school districts have put well over a million miles on their Crowns  -  what ThomBird can do that?   Quite simply, all school buses these days are mechanically based on medium-duty trucks. e.g. short-haul city delivery trucks, while Crowns and Gilligs have the same underpinnings as true Class 8 trucks.   For example, what eastern bus had a drivetrain like an MC9, complete with Jake and huge brakes?

A Crown is NOT your generic school bus.   Every one was custom-made to order (no two are exactly alike!) with mostly hand-built construction.   Crown was a niche manufacturer  -  obviously their business model and method of manufacturing was no longer sustainable when competing with buses mass-produced as cheaply as possible for a maximum 15-year life.   If General Electric "We Bring Good Things To Life" hadn't killed off Crown in 1991 they probably would have further developed their rear-engine Supercoach II, but the traditional mid-engine models were still outselling the Super II right up to the end.   My 1990 Super II is still a handsome and fresh-looking bus, and it looks better than the current disposabuses which in some cases just look plain ugly.   No cheap plastic interior and CANBUS for me!

John         

[Iceni John]

As for adding a bit of extra boost to get it up to speed, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkOOt_Sf68

That's one way to deal with tailgaters behind you.   The old Hall-Scott Crowns also could throw flames out their tail pipes when their drivers wanted to deter tailgaters, but not quite to that extent.

Is that a bus with an aircraft engine, or an aircraft with a bus body?   Nah, who cares, it's not a Crown . . .

John

[chessie4905]

I believe in Pa., at least, school busses are only operated for ten years due to state requirements of subsidies. Because of that their used value drops like a brick when off-loaded at the 10 year mark. ACF Brills were made similiar to Crowns; Underfloor engine, radiator between frame rails, mounted at an angle. Fans, generator, and air compressor mounted in a cluster run by a front driveshaft. Big baggage compartment at rear. Engine was a Hall Scott 779 cu. In. 6cylinder. Same rated hp as a 4104 of same time frame. Springs were 4 inch 4 each parallel with axle in-between. 4 speed trans was same as 4104, but not angle drive. Ratios were different, 2 to third was closer with big gap from 3 rd to 4th. Reverse was selected same way. They came up with a Cummins diesel version in early 50s, but too late and too costly to try to compete with GM after Greyhound went to them. They went out of business in mid 50s.

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/bus-stop-classic/bus-stop-classic-acf-brill-ic-41-silver-screen-standout/

[Oonrahnjay]

  I believe in Pa., at least, school busses are only operated for ten years due to state requirements of subsidies. Because of that their used value drops like a brick when off-loaded at the 10 year mark. ACF Brills were made similiar to Crowns; Underfloor engine, radiator between frame rails, mounted at an angle. Fans, generator, and air compressor mounted in a cluster run by a front driveshaft. Big baggage compartment at rear. Engine was a Hall Scott 779 cu. In. 6cylinder. Same rated hp as a 4104 of same time frame. Springs were 4 inch 4 each parallel with axle in-between. 4 speed trans was same as 4104, but not angle drive. Ratios were different, 2 to third was closer with big gap from 3 rd to 4th. Reverse was selected same way. They came up with a Cummins diesel version in early 50s, but too late and too costly to try to compete with GM after Greyhound went to them. They went out of business in mid 50s.

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/bus-stop-classic/bus-stop-classic-acf-brill-ic-41-silver-screen-standout/ 

       We had an ACF Brill as our sports team bus when I was in high school -- 62 - 65  (it may have been sold off before I graduated in '66 or maybe not).  I didn't know anything about it or think anything about it -- it was "just the bus" but even then I thought it was pretty cool.  The football/baseball coach drove it and he sure could grind the gears!