Author Topic: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?  (Read 1066 times)

Offline Jcparmley

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2018, 11:05:47 AM »
How about we just talk about roof raising.  It's clear that we all agree that bus cabinets should not be made with particleboard, period.  I watch the "after school bus" YouTube videos about roof-raising and was pretty impressed by the process. They didn't purchase caps but instead used sheet metal to fill the raised Gap. What do you guys think about that as a means of adapting the caps?

Offline RJ

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2018, 06:34:36 PM »
JC -

IMHO, the time/money/effort you'll spend raising the roof could be better spent elsewhere.

Creating a Frankenbus from the original lines of a C3 could also drastically reduce the amount of parks you'd be admitted to.

Obtaining insurance for Frankenbus could also be a huge nightmare, since insurance companies run from vehicles with structural modifications from original.

Perhaps you could use your existing cabinet doors on the lower cabinets - in the galley, head, rear bedroom - and build matching, yet shorter cabinets overhead, like most conversions?  (see pic)

Once you strip the interior to the bare walls (after you fight getting the restroom out!), putting 1" x 2" furring strips on the walls and ceilings then having the shell professionally spray foamed will make a HUGE difference in the noise level as well as the heating and cooling loads on the HVAC system you choose.  Contact a Thermo-King dealer in your area to see who they use for the reefer trailers they work on, perhaps you can work out a deal the next time they're doing some spraying.

Spray foaming the ceiling and doors of the baggage bins will go a long way, too.

If you have to replace the floor, consider a sandwich with hydronic heating, but keeping the overall height to just 1" greater than stock - many folk have done that - and it still gives you plenty of headroom inside.

Just throwing ideas out there for you to ponder.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)
RJ Long
PD4106-2784: Donated to the Pacific Bus Museum
S14947: 1980 MC-5C Shell 6V92/HT-740
S13406: 1978 MC-5C Angola Coach - Swapped for vvv
M1001907: 1992 Prevost XL Vantarè Conversion 8V92T/HT-755 (DDEC/ATEC)
Cheney WA

Offline buswarrior

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2018, 07:19:56 PM »
For cold weather operations, if heating the bays is part of the plan, the heat radiating upwards from the bays to the coach floor is not a waste, the coach interior will benefit.

If there are bays that are intended to stay cold, the coach interior will benefit from the ceilings of those ones being insulated to defend against cold soaked floors upstairs.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area

Offline Jcparmley

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2018, 07:53:08 PM »
Thanks for the response.  I was looking at my bay doors today and wondering how you would spray foam the doors.  Can someone jump in who has insulated the bays and let me know how you did so.  Also, for those who have raised the roof did you all have trouble with insurance or getting into parks?  This is something I hadn't considered. 

JC -

IMHO, the time/money/effort you'll spend raising the roof could be better spent elsewhere.

Creating a Frankenbus from the original lines of a C3 could also drastically reduce the amount of parks you'd be admitted to.

Obtaining insurance for Frankenbus could also be a huge nightmare, since insurance companies run from vehicles with structural modifications from original.

Perhaps you could use your existing cabinet doors on the lower cabinets - in the galley, head, rear bedroom - and build matching, yet shorter cabinets overhead, like most conversions?  (see pic)

Once you strip the interior to the bare walls (after you fight getting the restroom out!), putting 1" x 2" furring strips on the walls and ceilings then having the shell professionally spray foamed will make a HUGE difference in the noise level as well as the heating and cooling loads on the HVAC system you choose.  Contact a Thermo-King dealer in your area to see who they use for the reefer trailers they work on, perhaps you can work out a deal the next time they're doing some spraying.

Spray foaming the ceiling and doors of the baggage bins will go a long way, too.

If you have to replace the floor, consider a sandwich with hydronic heating, but keeping the overall height to just 1" greater than stock - many folk have done that - and it still gives you plenty of headroom inside.

Just throwing ideas out there for you to ponder.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)

Offline buswarrior

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2018, 05:59:16 AM »
The better strategy for hardcore insulating the bays is to forget the doors, and build an "insulated wall" that can be set in place and removed as necessary, just inside the door.

Most bay doors have horrible sealing, the sills are bent by previous "pole dancing", the doors aren't straight or square, the rain may stay out for the most part, but air intrusion past the hardened old seals will defeat your attempts to keep the bay warm.

Foaming the doors, and the rust that already lurks inside 'em, I've always felt uncomfortable about creating permanent wet places there.

Frame the space, the "access panel" just sets into place, can be left at home when climate conditions do not require them, design a way to slide 'em into a storage pocket, put 'em against the wall in another bay, lots of slick options.

a little trickery is needed to accommodate the door arms, for absolute maximum space inside.

As for the floor, the cost benefit of depth of insulation versus loss of bay height leads one fairly quickly to just laying a sheet of heavy plywood and calling it a day. You will be heating the space anyway, the plywood provides a decent thermal break with minimal loss of height, and whatever insulation you use is going to get wet. This way, if you leave the ribs open, your inner wall built just at their rise from the sill, the space under the plywood can breathe, and you can even keep the little spaces clear of dirt and debris with a blast of compressed air through to the other side..

Don't forget the waterbed heater trick under the water tanks during your build. Remember that craze, long ago? Pretty much never see a water bed being advertised anymore up here...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area

Offline sledhead

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2018, 09:09:32 AM »
I used the tin foil bubble stuff on the bay doors and tuck tape , used 1 " tin foil each side pink foam board with 3/8 " ply glued to the foam board with a maple noising at the front on the bay floors . on the underside of the floor the same 1 " thick foam + bubble stuff .
 added 2 " spacer to the centre of the roof then 1 " spacer to the sides of the roof ( all in layers of ply wood on the ribs ) glued and screwed .
on the walls 1/2 " ply spacers at rids and 3/8 ply on walls .

under the ply I had the coach spray foamed 

installed 1/2 " pex heated floor front to back with 3 zones ( lost 1.5 " off the finished floor , 2.5 " off ceiling ) lost 4 " total in height   

you can't get to much insulation and I did this on the standard c3 height

dave
dave , karen
1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide .... sold
2000 featherlite vogue vantare 550 hp cat
 home base huntsville ontario canada

Offline Jim Blackwood

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2018, 09:18:10 AM »
Dave, is it toasty and warm now?

Jim

Offline sledhead

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2018, 09:48:38 AM »
the day I sold it and the new owner drove it home to THUNDER BAY Ontario Canada
 the temp. when he left here was -17 cel. of -4 f and when he got to his home the temp. was - 40 cel or f

I told him he was NUTS to drive in that temperature but he said this is just a normal winter day

to answer your question yes it was a nice warm coach and as well it did not take much to keep it cool in the heat of the summer

I miss it as the coach we have now is not as good for insulation so we have to through more  heat and a/c to make up the difference

dave 
dave , karen
1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide .... sold
2000 featherlite vogue vantare 550 hp cat
 home base huntsville ontario canada

Offline Jcparmley

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2018, 07:48:27 PM »
So Dave

Would you recomend a diesel heater like a aquahot instead of electric?  I have been debating what to do for heat.  There are so many options out there it's hard to figure out what's best. 

Jared

I used the tin foil bubble stuff on the bay doors and tuck tape , used 1 " tin foil each side pink foam board with 3/8 " ply glued to the foam board with a maple noising at the front on the bay floors . on the underside of the floor the same 1 " thick foam + bubble stuff .
 added 2 " spacer to the centre of the roof then 1 " spacer to the sides of the roof ( all in layers of ply wood on the ribs ) glued and screwed .
on the walls 1/2 " ply spacers at rids and 3/8 ply on walls .

under the ply I had the coach spray foamed 

installed 1/2 " pex heated floor front to back with 3 zones ( lost 1.5 " off the finished floor , 2.5 " off ceiling ) lost 4 " total in height   

you can't get to much insulation and I did this on the standard c3 height

dave

Offline RJ

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2018, 10:53:09 PM »
Jared -

Would you recommend a diesel heater like a aquahot instead of electric?

Why not be redundant and have both?

Two 1500w toe-kick heaters, one in the bedroom pointed forward, and one in the living room, keeps our 35' MCI snug as a bug in a rug when we're hooked to the powerpole.  Virtually no maintenance, either, other than once per year pulling off the grille and vacuuming out the dust bunnies that seem to migrate inside.  Not very expensive, either, usually under $200 each.  Just put on separate circuits with their own circuit breaker.  Additional units might be needed in the galley and head on a 40-footer.

An Aquahot (or one of it's competitors) can not only be used to heat the cabin, but additional branch circuits can be added for domestic hot water (thru a heat exchanger), pre-heating the engine, etc.  These do require maintenance, depending on use, often more frequently than the electric heaters mentioned above.  Can sometimes be cantankerous, too.

Redundancy can be a good thing!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)
RJ Long
PD4106-2784: Donated to the Pacific Bus Museum
S14947: 1980 MC-5C Shell 6V92/HT-740
S13406: 1978 MC-5C Angola Coach - Swapped for vvv
M1001907: 1992 Prevost XL Vantarè Conversion 8V92T/HT-755 (DDEC/ATEC)
Cheney WA

Offline richard5933

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2018, 04:45:10 AM »
I agree with RJ - electric toe kick heaters are nice. We have three plus a small 500w baseboard heater in the bathroom. Great for when on power.

We have an LP furnace for other times, but I'd trade it for a Webasto any day.

As a third option, if you are installing roof a/c, you can add heat pumps for not much more and they are a great way to get rid of the chill.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108a-125 (Current Bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (Former Bus)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB

Offline sledhead

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2018, 04:47:25 AM »
floor heat is a slow to heat system but because it is a radiant heat it last a long time .
I am having problems with the aqua hot I have now . If I were to to my own system again I would use a pro heat x45 boiler and a boat 120 v / heat exchange + a plate heat exchange for the engine heat . way less money then a rv diesel boiler but you would need to know what you are doing as it would be complex . or get a oasis combi diesel boiler and a heat exchange for the engine .

look at the boiler post
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33491.0

but you would need a fan forced heater or 2 for instant heat like a cozi heater

dave   
dave , karen
1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide .... sold
2000 featherlite vogue vantare 550 hp cat
 home base huntsville ontario canada

Offline buswarrior

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2018, 05:22:20 AM »
In the real cold, access to enough electric power to keep all the spaces warm, might be a problem.

How many bays will need some amps, then the rest of the coach's needs?

I did some fooling around with a cold coach and some heaters one winter, FWIW, if you let the coach go cold, it takes a lot of amperage to get it warmed back up.

A hydronic boiler can have loops into each bay, heat your domestic hot water, heat the interior and pre-heat the engine and/or generator, all for a few amps of burner blower and circulation pumps...

But, there's no free lunch, complexity and preventive maintenance come into play...

Back in winter 2010, I did this test:  http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/33190.html

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area

Offline chessie4905

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2018, 07:39:10 AM »
Yeah, and when the furnace goes down on a zero temp windy night, all bets are off. Conversions don't enjoy the convenience of night service calls like homes do. Even if they do, what are the odds of having the part needed?
GMC h8h 649#028 (4905)
Pennsylvania-central

Offline TomC

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Re: MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2018, 08:19:14 AM »
One of the many reasons I used a high floor transit is because of the 6'10" headroom (I'm 6'3"). Even with the hanging down roof A/C's, I don't come close. And even with the floor raising up in the rear, my shower is to the side and with the shower pan on top of the floor, the headroom is more than enough.
If at all possible, you should avoid a roof raise.
One of the best things to do is lots of insulation. I screwed 1x3 fir strips horizontally to the body ribs then had spray foam (a VERY messy job best for the professionals) to the edge of the 1x3's for 2.25" of foam. Good Luck, TomC
Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.