Large Source for 2001 MCI 102DL3s in Houston, TX

[mqbus767]

Hello Bus Nuts,

First let me start by saying thank you to all that have contributed to these forums. All of you have proven to be a much needed source of information, encouragement, and inspiration for our own little dream.

We just recently purchased a 2001 MCI 102DL3 from the Houston Metro Transit Authority (www.ridemetro.org). Metro has been steadily retiring their older buses from their fleet and when they do so, they auction them off through a website (www.municibid.com) specializing in the sale municipal properties. During the last round of bus auctions, Metro had 12 2001 MCI 102DL3s for sale and we won what I believe was the pride of the litter. Forgive me if this information is already widely known and I'm simply repeating information. I did do a search on the forums and could not find anything about Municibid.

I'm posting this because at the moment Metro has 18 of the same bus for auction closing in 4 days. I also have it on word from a very nice gentlemen at Metro that they will be auctioning off another 40-50 buses over the next year or so. The buses have a starting bid of $6500 and no reserve. During two auctions I have seen the buses sell for anywhere from $6500 up to $11000 (Use the "View Completed Auctions" feature). The last round of buses had a high price of $7600. There is a rather steep buyer's fee of 8% that goes to Municibid.

We looked at 20 buses over a 3 month period. All of the buses are outfitted the same:

• 12.7 Detroit Diesel 60
• Allison B500 6 Speed
• Carrier Supplemental AC (R22)
• No Lavatory (Yea!)
• Jake Brake
• Bus Kneel
• Wheelchair Door/Lift
• Engine compartment extinguisher system (Really impressive looking)
• Dinex Multiplex control system
• Lots and lots of signage
• Transit split style doors

They all have a very similar wear pattern. The major differences between them seem to be:

• Tire tread depth/condition (Some had 80% meat, others closer to 3/32nds)
• Some buses start, others have a dead battery
• Some have windshield cracks, water leaks
• 500K plus miles on most (Saw at least one with only 370K)
• Never saw any significant oil leaks on the ones I inspected
• Corner body bumps and bruises
• Two buses had rust through holes in the side panels
• About half of them have bends in one or two of the bays; especially the forward most one (speed bump/curb hits?)
• Some had signs of rebuilt radiators (fresh paint, cleaner cores)
• Some had evidence of newer turbos, idler pulleys, rebuilt A/C compressors

When I asked about the success rate of just driving the buses off the lot, I was told they either start and drive just fine or need a jump and then they are on their way. Only one out of the last 20 or so buses needed a mechanic. (Replacement "I/O module" and then it started and ran)

As a bonus, Metro is also auctioning off their surplus bus parts. So far I've mostly seen used (core) parts like staters, ac compressors, fan motors, etc. I'm told, however, as the fleet gets purged of this year/model, they will be auctioning off their surplus *new* parts. It's an interesting site to keep an eye on especially if you need 36 A/C condenser motor cores.   

If you have any questions about the process or the bus, I'd be happy to provide whatever information I can. I also have quite a few detailed pictures (beyond what the auctions show) if you'd like to see details on any particular system.

P.S. When we picked ours up, she started immediately and drove the 20 miles home without a hiccup. 

[Lasernomad]

yes please, tell me which ones are the good ones!

[luvrbus]

Houston has always had a fabulous maintenance program for their buses,they have some long routes to run from Conroe,Katy,Baytown and Alvin to Houston   

[Lasernomad]

So clearly they are all using the same pictures do they all have the handicap side door?

EDIT I re read your original post clearly they do.

Second edit: So is it just the 8% to the auction house  or 8 to the house and 8 to the govt?

[mqbus767]

yes please, tell me which ones are the good ones!

To tell you the truth, there is very little difference among them. I think the deciding factors for me were the tires, windshield cracks, and any obvious signs of an engine haul out. (Of course that could be a good sign, but I doubt they in-frame any of these engines) After that, it's pretty much nit-picking.

Here's a video someone shot of one of these buses still in service. (About the 1:50 mark)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MogzWcVA75o

[mqbus767]

So clearly they are all using the same pictures do they all have the handicap side door?

EDIT I re read your original post clearly they do.

Second edit: So is it just the 8% to the auction house  or 8 to the house and 8 to the govt?

They do seem to reuse the photos quite a bit and yes, they all have the access doors on the side.

It's 8% to the house and 6.25% sales tax at the county tax assessor collector. So if you win the auction at 10K, you're looking at 10K + 800 + 625. (Title and registration ding you for another chunk.)

[Jim Blackwood]

May be an important question here, do these buses have transit gearing or highway gears?

Jim

[luvrbus]

May be an important question here, do these buses have transit gearing or highway gears?

Jim

They are highway gears the Allison has a double overdrive and most buses use the 4.30 to 4.56:1 ratio with that transmission and a series 60 mine is 4.30:1 and cruises at 70 mph @ 1600 rpm,those are commuter buses not a stop and go transit bus     

[Jim Blackwood]

Thanks.
How hard would it be to change the door?

Jim

[luvrbus]

They are not that hard to remove Derrick Thomas here removed his,if I was looking for a MCI DL3 bus  a pre 2000 model without the EGR on a series 60 would be my choice, less headaches with better fuel mileage 

[Jim Blackwood]

Good point. I'm in about that price range, transporting it to KY runs the cost up. Don't want a bent bus though. I'd need a bidding agent because of that so there's more expense. Some pros some cons, but it could be made to work. The wheelchair door could be handy but doesn't that use bay space? And how much would a replacement door cost?

I do have family in the Dallas area so there is that, and my brother has a CDL.

Jim

[mqbus767]

The wheelchair lift does use up a large part of the bay, but the door itself is just a slider and uses no bay space. I have no need for the lift, so it will come out, but the door I'm hoping to keep. I like the idea of having a "porch" door on the bus.

[Jim Blackwood]

I'm considering one from the northeast, from photos the rust doesn't seem too bad. Little bit older, little bit less money maybe, should be a little closer. If I don't buy that one a trip to Houston might be in order, we'll see.

How'd the sidewalls look on those tires? Seen a lot of tread on tires with cracks. How old can these be and still be reasonably safe?

Jim

[mqbus767]

Hey Jim,

The sidewalls are not perfect, but I didn't notice any concerning issues. The tire conditions on the buses is the thing that probably varies most. I've no idea on the dry rot time for them.

Best of luck!

[Jim Blackwood]

mqbus767 can I ask your name?
Would you consider acting as a bidding agent? Seems to me getting a bus from down that way there would be far fewer issues with corrosion that the other one I'm looking at and that may be worth the difference in cost. I'd like to have something by spring so it sounds like that works with Houston's schedule for sales.

Jim

[mqbus767]

Hey Jim,

Yep, these buses are warm weather buses, so rust and rot does not seem to be a problem. I've not cracked the panels on the interior to see under the window frames yet, but the chassis are predictably clean.

The auctions are online. This means on the auction day, you place your bids through the site and watch the timer countdown. No need for a bidding agent. You'll register an account with Municibid and setup a credit card with them for the buyer's fee. If you win, they will charge the buyer's fee to your CC and then send you the details for remittance of payment. I think Metro gives you 5 or 7 days to pickup the bus. You'll need to get it off the lot quickly unless there are some extenuating circumstances (i.e. weather, holidays, etc.)

Most of the activity happens in the last hour of the auction and they usually clump between 2 and 4 buses together with the same end time. Sometimes there is a bit of time between the clumps so you can catch your breath and make a guess at who is buying the buses. For example, it was pretty clear during our auction that a bus company (refurb. or possibly some tour company) was using automatic proxy bidding. Once their limit was reached, the proxy stopped, so I knew pretty much where their limit was. You could also tell the buyers that were, like me, just trying to get a single bus. As soon as they got theirs, they were out of the game, so I never pushed too hard on a bus that wasn't in my top 3 and for which a single-bus-buyer was bidding. There is an automatic 2 minute extension for any bids placed in the last 2 minutes of the auction to help prevent "sniping".

When we won, I went prepared with some diesel, basic set of tools, and a jump kit. Depending on how far you intend to drive it, you might want to secure quotes for towing and have a destination in mind just in case.

I'd recommend contacting Mr. Gregory Scott (info. listed on the auction pages) if you have any other questions. He's a very nice gentlemen and his job seems to be primarily getting rid of unneeded property for Metro. And remember, these auctions are probably going to come around at least a few more times, so don't make a bad decision under pressure.

Hope that helps.

Good luck!

[luvrbus]

There are 2- 2004 D 4500 MCI'S in Va on Public Surplus with stainless siding not long to go on the auction they are at $3000 to $3500.00 right now and probably won't go much higher,R/B is selling the the 99 H Prevost again it never reached $1500.00 last time     

[Jim Blackwood]

Luvrbus, I see a couple of transits but no 4500, do you have a link? It sounds enticing but I couldn't find it. I'd certainly like more information.

See mqbus, that's why I asked the question. You have been there, done that, and have a good idea how to play the game. I'm 1500 miles away and can't even look at the bus. There's a considerable advantage in being on the spot so to speak. I think I could afford reasonable compensation for your time and expertise. Anyway just think about it, there's no immediate rush. I need to settle the negotiations on this other bus first anyway.

Jim

[luvrbus]

The auction closed they went for $3800.00 ea and didn't meet the reserve so they will be back,there is a 2010 D4500 in AR but it will bring big bucks it's low mileage

[mqbus767]

Luvrbus, I see a couple of transits but no 4500, do you have a link? It sounds enticing but I couldn't find it. I'd certainly like more information.

See mqbus, that's why I asked the question. You have been there, done that, and have a good idea how to play the game. I'm 1500 miles away and can't even look at the bus. There's a considerable advantage in being on the spot so to speak. I think I could afford reasonable compensation for your time and expertise. Anyway just think about it, there's no immediate rush. I need to settle the negotiations on this other bus first anyway.

Jim

Totally agree Jim. It's a huge advantage and contributor to peace of mind to inspect it in person. What I would do is this: PM me and I'll provide some detailed photos of our bus and I'll try to answer any questions you might have regarding it's condition. If, after that discussion, you are still interested, you might try calling Mr. Scott and simply asking him which of the buses in the auction would be his top three and why. You can ask him if, while showing the buses to others, any of them were able to start and build air pressure. At that point you'll have a pretty good idea which ones are good candidates for your project.

[Jim Blackwood]

OK, that sounds like a good idea, provided I pass on the northern bus I'm looking at. It also is remote. May have to take a leap of faith at some point it seems, but those things are often necessary. My biggest concern currently is the shape of the radiator fins.

Are you going to do anything with your bifold door? That seems like it could run into some money to convert to a single.

Jim

[luvrbus]

The radiators on a D are mounted across the rear and high with the charge air cooler to keep it away from all the stuff most radiators pickup.you don't see much rot on a D radiator   

[buswarrior]

Please remember, Mr Scott may be in a precarious position to be offering "advice".

These are public assets and he works for a public entity.

If he offers any more details than his employer and their disposal policies allow, and aren't freely available to anyone, he loses his good job.

No hanky panky at public expence.

That said, be sure you DO HAVE all the available info, some of it can hide on these online offerings.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[Jim Blackwood]

So noted.
Do the DL's have the same issue with rust inside the walls and showing up on the fasteners in the bays? Or is there someplace where they are particularly susceptible to salt?

Jim

[mqbus767]

Please remember, Mr Scott may be in a precarious position to be offering "advice".

These are public assets and he works for a public entity.

If he offers any more details than his employer and their disposal policies allow, and aren't freely available to anyone, he loses his good job.

No hanky panky at public expence.

That said, be sure you DO HAVE all the available info, some of it can hide on these online offerings.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Very true. Mr. Scott is aware of his limits and so advised me when inquiring. Metro and their third-party contractors keep extensive (to the screw almost) maintenance records on these buses. I asked if he could provide a PDF/printout of the records for my particular bus after I had purchased it and he said it was against Metro's policy. What a shame too; I'd have known everything that had been done to it and a good indication of any immediate/pressing maintenance issues; a true gold-mine. So close, yet so far away.

[mqbus767]

So noted.
Do the DL's have the same issue with rust inside the walls and showing up on the fasteners in the bays? Or is there someplace where they are particularly susceptible to salt?

Jim

PM'd you back Jim. Let me know if you didn't get it.

[mqbus767]

OK, that sounds like a good idea, provided I pass on the northern bus I'm looking at. It also is remote. May have to take a leap of faith at some point it seems, but those things are often necessary. My biggest concern currently is the shape of the radiator fins.

Are you going to do anything with your bifold door? That seems like it could run into some money to convert to a single.

Jim

Yes, at some point we will probably take out the transit split doors. It's kinda sad because part of me likes keeping some of the history of the bus with a wink and a nod to it's service life, but I just can't imagine ever getting those doors truly air tight.

Jim, I'm sure you're aware of this, but it can't be over-stated; bus conversions are not easy to do on the cheap. If the thought of a radiator needing to be rebuilt or the cost of replacing the entry door causes you to question the bus because of purely monetary concerns, you may need to wait for the perfect situation or reconsider the scope of the project. We might get lucky with our bus and, for the time that we own it, never have to change a clutch, pully, compressor, radiator, injectors, ECU, I/O Module or other main system component, but I'm not counting on it. If we get away with not having to in-frame the engine or rebuild the transmission, I'll be super happy. Short of that, it's almost a promise that something is going to go out.

Hope that advice is received with the humility it was intended. 

[luvrbus]

DL's are prone to rust at the rear on the air bag mounts it's real thin steel and they rust out and the bags go through the floor a easy fix during converting where you can remove the floor, mine I had to remove the siding it was not a pleasant job.Check the drive axle and tag area and air bag mounts close for rust, all depends on you but if you find a lot of rust in that area I would move on unless it is a super buy,the rest of the bus the rust is not a problem   

[Jim Blackwood]

Thanks guys, now I think I know what to watch for. I'm waiting on a response to an offer so we'll see how that plays out. Otherwise I think it's a good rig. The seller's not real happy with the offers he's seen so far, so I may end up having to call and negotiate on the phone. I'll see what tomorrow brings.

As for the additional costs, well I'm just trying to ward off as much of that at the outset as I can. My budget is not unlimited but it should be sufficient as long as I don't fall down the rabbit hole like that other fella, what was his name again? Anyway, no, I can't afford to do mega rust repair all over the bus, rebuild the engine, transmission, axles, steering, replace the radiators, turbo, ECU and alternator and THEN find out the roof leaks. That'd leave nothing for the conversion itself. But if I can meet my goals on the purchase and fend off those extra costs in the process then I think I can come out with a pretty sweet RV. I know how to cut costs without cutting corners, been doing that all my life, and now at retirement age I think I can handle a project like this one.

Anyway guys I really appreciate the advice and the leads. I wouldn't stand much of a chance on this without the help I've gotten here. Oh, and I just subscribed to the magazine btw so there'll be no shortage of winter reading material. I did notice there's not a lot of DL3 articles but maybe we can help out with that some as we get rolling on these newer conversions.

Jim

[niles500]

MQBUS, the maintenance records should be public records, make  a public records request and pay for the cost for copying or if digital the cost of a CD, HTH

[luvrbus]

The DL3 is a good choice it's nothing fancy just a good solid work horse of the American highways no chassis computers and no CAN wiring to deal with the D is the best selling bus of all time it's been around since 1992 and still going.Mine has the tag that steers I love it but when the tag does needs parts it can be pricey from MCI     

[mqbus767]

MQBUS, the maintenance records should be public records, make  a public records request and pay for the cost for copying or if digital the cost of a CD, HTH

Wow Niles, that's a great idea.

In fact, it's on their website:

https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/Texas-Public-Information-Act.aspx

I'll pursue that and see what I can make of it. Thanks!

[buswarrior]

There is a troubling trend underway in some parts...

Public agencies selling assets direct to scrap, due to liability concerns.

Maintenance records are another avenue for lawyers to mount lawsuits over the condition of the asset.

"As is, where is" isn't bullet proof anymore...

Government entities don't care about the pittance of monied recovered. They don't want the distraction of a lawsuit.

Locally, the big scrapyard issues certificates of destruction, doesn't let anyone near 'em, can't even get a tail light off anything... that's the agreement with the municipality, and that's that.

Drinking buddies of the owner can't even get anywhere...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[m-werx]

Hi luvrbus,

Who is r/b with  1999 Prevost for sale,
thanks.

[bobofthenorth]

R/B is Ritchie Brothers - rbauction.com  They've got a 1980 Prevost in Montreal but I can't see the 1999 he is referring to on their website.

[luvrbus]

It is in Phoenix for Friday's auction it's sitting in the yard but I see no listing,there are some Vanhools in the yard also,R/B does that all the time,the two boys of mine are going we are looking for a couple to do mobile kitchens