Author Topic: Shutterstat Questions (Read 5261 times)

richard5933 · « **on:** November 17, 2020, 05:53:41 AM »

Not much I can do right now while recovering from minor surgery, so I'm digging in deep learning about the shutter system on my bus so I can complete the rehab on them in the spring. They work and the shutters themselves are in great condition, but I've got a few minor air leaks I plan to address.

Question right now about the Shutterstat...

Anyone know if there are any functional differences between these two styles of Shutterstats? The first one is the type on the bus right now. The second appears to be a later version of the same thing. The shutterstat on my bus is a 190-degree normally-open variety, and the new style one that I found as backup has the same specs. Same physical size/dimensions. Only difference I see is the inability to rebuild the newer one, at least as easily.

On that note, anyone every rebuild one of these? From the picture in the MCI parts book it seems like a pretty simple thing to rebuild to clean & change out o-rings.

chessie4905 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2020, 09:48:45 AM »

Personally, I would go with the new style. Fewer points to leak.

richard5933 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2020, 10:13:56 AM »

Quote from: chessie4905 on November 17, 2020, 09:48:45 AM

Personally, I would go with the new style. Fewer points to leak.

Should I assume that they are interchangeable?

chessie4905 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2020, 11:20:18 AM »

I'd call Luke to be sure.

richard5933 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2020, 12:49:45 PM »

Brief project update...

Found some Shutterstat Fluid - sealed can never used. The oil inside seems to be good and not gummed up. I was expecting an odd smell since it has a solvent content, but didn't expect that smell to be mildly similar to the smell of Windex. The closest thing I've found to it so far was Marvel Mystery Pneumatic Tool Oil. I'll run some side-by-side wicking tests to see how they compare.

The airline filter/oiler on my bus has been on there unopened for 46 years. On initial inspection the screws and fittings seem pretty well stuck and not keen to move. So, when I saw the NOS filter/oiler come up on eBay I got it just in case.

The air cylinder rebuild kit was ordered through Ross Air Works, and the Shutterstat itself was bought from C&J in Minnesota. I'll probably replace the air lines themselves if there is any sign of dryness or cracking when I get things opened up.

The shutters themselves move freely. I've been keeping them lubricated and have moved them manually a few times a year hoping to get them working at some point.

Seems like I've got everything in place now to get the shutters working again. Probably won't get to it till I start working on the bus in the early spring, but it's nice to be able to find all the parts and supplies needed.

For those curious as to why? Simple, because I can.

chessie4905 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2020, 05:27:20 PM »

I have the hydraulic torus fan on mine. Previous owner had it on full setting without the Vernatherm. I found a new one, so going to change back and also go to air cooled transmission lube.

lostagain · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2020, 06:02:06 PM »

When I was driving buses in the 70s and 80s, it got quite cold in the winter, like -30s and 40s at times. All buses then had radiator shutters. It helped warming up the engine faster in the mornings. Also, I remember overnights at hotels with sports teams where we would park at the back of the lot and let them idle all night. So of course the shutters were a good thing. Since the nineties, most buses and trucks have Webasto diesel coolant heaters that preheat the engine and keep it at operating temperatures in cold weather. So shutters aren't seen in modern vehicles much any more.

I understand your desire to fix what you have and keep your bus in original condition. But shutters aren't really necessary in bus nut use. Unless you think you'll be in -30 weather regularly. Without them, the engine will get up to 180 deg. if you put a load on it, like going down the highway. It will run cold only if you idle, or while putsing around town. They weigh hundreds of pounds. Getting rid of them is more beneficial in my opinion.

Your bus, your way. Have fun.

luvrbus · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2020, 07:52:17 AM »

The newer stuff since the 90;s have 2 and 3 speed fan clutches too,the fan draws a lot of HP from a engine ,Mine is hydraulic and will suck some air when on high with the AC running.I have a set of shutters from a MCI if anyone wants a set

richard5933 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2020, 08:15:47 AM »

Quote from: lostagain on November 27, 2020, 06:02:06 PM

...I understand your desire to fix what you have and keep your bus in original condition. But shutters aren't really necessary in bus nut use. Unless you think you'll be in -30 weather regularly. Without them, the engine will get up to 180 deg. if you put a load on it, like going down the highway. It will run cold only if you idle, or while putsing around town. They weigh hundreds of pounds. Getting rid of them is more beneficial in my opinion.

Your bus, your way. Have fun.

You're correct, sort of, in saying that they are not necessary. Correct in that most of us will not really notice them if they're missing. But they do have a purpose even for us.

I'm learning that the shutters help with fuel efficiency as well as engine temp, as it takes less HP from the engine to spin the fan with the shutters closed as it does with them open and able to pull air through. During spring and fall weather, when temps are in the 30s - 50s, our engine will struggle to stay at operating temp even while going down the road. Might take 15-20 minutes before we reach close to operating temp, and there are many times the temp gauge reads below 180 even longer. Our gauge indicates a few degrees above actual engine temp so I don't think it's a bad gauge. This means that the shutters should be closed for a decent chunk of time in those seasons.

The shutters on my bus are not that heavy. I've had the entire assembly off and can easily carry it with one hand, so it can't be all that much weight. Even if you add the associated hardware I'd guess it's all under 50 pounds.

More important to me, they're on the bus which means they should be operating properly. I know that there are other methods of accomplishing the same thing on newer buses and trucks, but that's not what I'm working with. I like the challenge in keeping these things working.

luvrbus · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2020, 08:22:24 AM »

Bus owners never see the conditions like the buses did designed for revenue service,Me I never owned a bus with shutters before,I know a fan on a GM bus can rob 40 HP that a 8v71 N/A really doesn't have to give up so anything would help

richard5933 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2020, 08:49:46 AM »

Never did learn much about fluid dynamics, especially in relationship to fan design. But, after being told that closing the shutters on a bus radiator results in lower HP demand from the fan, I did some reading. Much more complicated that I thought, but the premise does seem to be valid. Closing the shutters reduces the HP load from the fan, meaning that more HP is available for moving the bus.

luvrbus · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2020, 09:04:16 AM »

Fan clutches do the same that is why they are used now instead of the shutters,a good 3 speed fan clutch can cost you upwards of $2000.00 though

sledhead · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2020, 01:49:15 PM »

I fixed my shutters so they worked on the M C I and when it was cold they worked good to heat up the temp. and hold it

On the featherlite when I first got it the fan was on high all the time and it took a long long time to warm up so I put a switch at the dash so now it is always on low unless I turn it on high from the driver seat . now it warms up faster and almost all the time the fan is on low . plus now my fuel mileage is 1-1.5 mpg better and this is going off the cat computer all time average . win win

so I agree fix the shutters if you travel in cold temps.

dave

luvrbus · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2020, 03:15:20 PM »

Quote from: sledhead on November 28, 2020, 01:49:15 PM

I fixed my shutters so they worked on the M C I and when it was cold they worked good to heat up the temp. and hold it

On the featherlite when I first got it the fan was on high all the time and it took a long long time to warm up so I put a switch at the dash so now it is always on low unless I turn it on high from the driver seat . now it warms up faster and almost all the time the fan is on low . plus now my fuel mileage is 1-1.5 mpg better and this is going off the cat computer all time average . win win

That is very unusual a fan on high all the time on the 3406 CAT they come on high around 205*high is the default speed

so I agree fix the shutters if you travel in cold temps.

dave

sledhead · « **Reply #14 on:** November 29, 2020, 06:00:41 AM »

for what ever reason some one turned it on high all the time in the cat computer ? and I watch the computer as I drive and it has never gone as high as 205 since I have owned it . now if I look at the dash temp. gauge it goes higher the longer you drive

and at first it would scare the crap out of me but now that I know the dash gauge is wacked I look at the engine computer to see the temp . and all the rest it shows

dave

dave

chessie4905 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 29, 2020, 06:26:35 AM »

The engine computer relies on input from a coolant sensor. The dash gauge relies on info from a coolant sensor...

Scott & Heather · « **Reply #16 on:** November 29, 2020, 01:03:59 PM »

I wish I had my shutters still. In the 50’sF my new engine isn’t getting even close to operating temp even after 25 minutes of driving.

dtcerrato · « **Reply #17 on:** November 29, 2020, 02:04:29 PM »

Close off the intake air to the radiator! Cardboard or a bra like the truckers do especially to see the differences in your temp readings. We ran shutters for decades that were never needed so off they came but when we see your issue we'd be impeding incoming air in a jiffy...
Just our 2 cents...

chessie4905 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 29, 2020, 04:46:58 PM »

Do you have a clutch fan?

Scott & Heather · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2020, 07:21:09 PM »

No. I have the old style long belt and squirrels

Jim Blackwood · « **Reply #20 on:** December 01, 2020, 09:15:32 AM »

Squirrels in your bus? Hard to see that as a good thing. 'Course I've heard that a good cat can get rid of them.

Jim

chessie4905 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 01, 2020, 10:08:41 AM »

Get with Luke or Cliff and see if you can get a set of takeoffs.

richard5933 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2021, 02:52:29 PM »

Quick followup on this project as it finally nears completion.

I filled the NOS airline oiler/filter I found last year with the Shutterstat fluid today and got it installed, and then was able to confirm that the shutters themselves now open and close smoothly on their own with air. Guess oiling those shutters over the past few years even though I couldn't use them paid off, as they worked great.

Only one piece left to test, the Shutterstat itself. I'll need to get the engine to full temp, and then I'll be able to check to make sure that it closes the air supply to the shutters as it should, and I hope to do that this weekend when I get the coach out for its first run for the season.

richard5933 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2021, 01:42:49 PM »

Took the bus out today for it's first drive of the year, hoping to see the shutters do their thing. They closed right away, but in the cold weather the engine temp never got warm enough for me to see them open. Not sure if the Shutterstat is working, but I think that I might have had them open for a few minutes along the drive - the temp gauge got to around 195 for a few minutes, and then quickly dropped back to about 180 and stayed there for the rest of the trip.

Here's a video of the first cold start of the year and the shutters closing once the air reached 60 psi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG8Bgs3NL8o

buswarrior · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2021, 02:43:55 PM »

You need a chase car, the shutters will close as the coach comes off the highway ramp, and you'll not see them open by the time you park.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

richard5933 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2021, 03:39:58 PM »

Quote from: buswarrior on March 07, 2021, 02:43:55 PM

You need a chase car, the shutters will close as the coach comes off the highway ramp, and you'll not see them open by the time you park.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

If that's the case, then I'll assume they are working for now. Perhaps I'll use this as an excuse to buy a GoPro camera and strap it to the side of the bus.

Or maybe install a contact switch on the shutters and wire a small indicator light off the the side to let me know if the shutters are open or closed.

Or, since the engine temps are doing like they should just leave things alone till they don't.

richard5933 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2021, 06:03:24 AM »

Yesterday I had the bus on the road with warmer (mid 60s) ambient temps for the first time since getting the Shutterstat system up and running. Brand new 190F Shutterstat installed and all.

On the way home, the engine temp rose up higher than I've seen in the past. Typically the needle would be just right of the 180 mark, to what would be about 185F. Yesterday it looked more like it was holding steady at about 200F. I pulled off at the next exit and manually opened the shutters, and it dropped immediately to the point it used to be.

When I got home, I thought about this. In the past I've tried every way I could to verify the accuracy of the dash gauge. No matter how I checked, it always seemed that the engine was about 160-170F when the gauge indicated 185F. I've checked with an infrared temp gun as well as temp-sensing stickers applied to the water pump housing. They all showed the lower temps. Left me thinking my gauge was reading higher than actual.

So, perhaps what I saw yesterday was actually my engine being at the proper operating temp for the first time ever?

Anyone have a good way to verify the accuracy of the dash gauge?

I've got a mechanical temp gauge I was hoping to install in the engine bay, but apparently there are no additional ports available for it.

lostagain · « **Reply #27 on:** April 24, 2021, 07:05:19 AM »

I had a mechanical gauge in the engine compartment, (of my now sold 5C), as well as an electric one on the dash, and the IR gun's reading are really close to them. I shoot at the thermostat housings with it, and the water pump and related piping. So it sounds to me like you are doing good to go.

buswarrior · « **Reply #28 on:** April 24, 2021, 11:27:41 AM »

The trouble is verifying the temp in the heat of battle. Everything has cooled by the time you stop and run back there to the engine room, so you don't learn much useful, except what "idle" might be...

My daughter and I used an IR gun, she shot down thru the hole in the floor down the back, on the pipes leading up to the hvac, while I drove it into Hades. She called out the numbers and I got an idea of what consistant lies the dash gauge was telling.

Hvac must be engaged to ensure good coolant flow, it will be noisy, windy and dusty, eye protection for the gun holder is a good idea.

Discovered on mine the dash gauge was ok at 180 and raised much more quickly than the temps found down the back, so the dash was suggesting hotter than it was, but not at idle...

Arranging a fresh mechanical gauge visible thru the floor would be good too...

Oh, how is it that we decide the engine room mechanical gauge is any freakin' better than the trash dash gauge...

False prophets, idols, sinners and busnuts...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

lostagain · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2021, 11:55:16 AM »

From my empirical observations, the water temperature stays stable (hot) long enough, so by the time you are looking at it in the engine bay, it is still close to what it was a couple of minutes before going up a hill with your foot on the floor. The cooling system contains many, many gallons of liquid. It takes hours for it to cool off completely. Not like the exhaust manifold temperature which reacts pretty well instantly to how much fuel you give the engine.

chessie4905 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2021, 04:56:21 PM »

Richard, there isnt a removable plug on the end of one of the heads? Even a large one could be reduced for a sender. There is a 3/8 or 1/2" pipe plug on alternator end of upper head. Probably need a good impact wrench and a good allen socket to remove though. I would like accurate temp at head since overheat can crack them.

richard5933 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2021, 06:33:12 PM »

Quote from: chessie4905 on April 24, 2021, 04:56:21 PM

Richard, there isnt a removable plug on the end of one of the heads? Even a large one could be reduced for a sender. There is a 3/8 or 1/2" pipe plug on alternator end of upper head. Probably need a good impact wrench and a good allen socket to remove though. I would like accurate temp at head since overheat can crack them.

I asked about some of the locations you're talking about last year when I had the bus in for service. Some were not suitable for the sender (not enough depth) and others I think would have read oddly. Can't remember the specifics, but it was recommended not to use them.

luvrbus · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2021, 08:55:23 PM »

There are plugs on the front of the heads to,you can install engine heaters in I don't see any reason a gauge would not work,the best location is the T-stat housing

chessie4905 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 25, 2021, 04:55:39 AM »

Pretty much the rest are inaccessible.

luvrbus · « **Reply #34 on:** April 25, 2021, 05:07:28 AM »

You can always use the temp gauge like on air cooled diesel engines

dtcerrato · « **Reply #35 on:** April 25, 2021, 05:57:10 AM »

We really liked our rad shutters but they never really worked, as they were beyond worn out so we removed them. We are looking to put fasteners on the rad door to accommodate a winter front in the case of deep cold temps.

richard5933 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 25, 2021, 06:13:07 AM »

My understanding is that the actual temp in different parts of the engine will not be the same. The general place to take the temp is at/near the thermostat housing, and all the ports there are occupied.

I'm sure that it's possible to stick the sensor in some other opening into the water jacket, but there's no telling if the temps there will be 'normal' even if they are reading higher/lower than expected.

In the end I might pull the existing sensor and temporarily put in an aftermarket one to use another gauge for a bit to check the accuracy of the dash gauge.

dtcerrato · « **Reply #37 on:** April 25, 2021, 06:28:23 AM »

I think it's always a good idea to do a boil test if & when the sender is out or diagnoses of a sender in question. Thermostat in water on a flame with an accurate immersion thermometer will tell tale the accuracy of a sender - w/o question.