Shifty Advice

[gus]

Again, as Dallas says.

None of that binding of gears happens when not using the clutch if you unload the gears first, this is not brain surgery. Then, depending which direction you are shifting, you can either wait for the gears to match speeds or use the foot throttle to make them mesh.

I own a bunch of antique trucks, including a WWII GMC, a '31 Chevy 1.5 ton dual wheel, a '64 CJ-5, a '60 WC22 White 5 ton, a '53 730 GMC 5 ton and a '71 C900 Dodge 5 ton tractor. Normally I shift all these without using the clutch but sometimes, when I have, to I use it.

If you don't like to wear things out then why wear out the clutch when there is no need to?

Of course timing is important no matter what method you use, in fact with the Spicer 4-sp it is absolutely essential. This is the hardest thing to shift I have ever driven.

[oldmansax]

Gus, I agree with you on at least one thing:

The Spicer is the most aggravating  transmission I have ever driven!

BTW, you gotta lot of nerve calling a '60 WC22 White an "antique"! 

I had a '54 Autocar AND a 64 Diamond Reo. Surely they would not be considered "antiques"! That would mean I might be antique!!! 

Ain't it funny (or sad) how time slips away!   

[buswarrior]

Hello.

New folks, use your clutch until you are able to shift well, then try messing around with clutchless shifting, if you feel inspired.

Using the clutch to change gears is not going to wear it out.

Choosing the wrong method of starting off is what wears out a clutch. See RJ's shifting article over at BNO on dead pedal starts. Accelerator and clutch should not be used in concert.

Inside the transmission, the power of the engine comes in one side, and the weight and momentum of the coach comes in through the other.

Your choice whether those two forces meet against the edges of the splines and teeth as you try to put them together, or whether you use the clutch to seperate them so that either of those big forces is only acting against the momentum of a spinning gear set, which they are designed to withstand.

It's your money. Teach yourself on someone else's bus?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Fredward]

Lin,
I also have a 5a with Spicer. When I bought it, the PO rarely used the clutch. I know becuase I had him drive it before I test drove it. I tried shifting that way at first and absolutely could not figure it out even though I understood the concept. After about 3,000 miles, I got real tired of pushing in the clutch all the time and none of my shifts were very good anyway. (And I'm good at double clutching)

I started doing exactly what Dallas recommends above and it is so much easier and smoother than clutch shifts. Plus you really get more in tune with your coach. Now I rarely use the clutch and the up shifts are so smooth you'd be amazed; no grinding, but you do have to concentrate (and practice!). Down shifts are more likely to be missed, but they go pretty well also. And you always have the clutch if you want to mess with it. I love driving without the clutch.

Follow Dallas' sequence it really works.

Fred

[gus]

Fred,

An excellent post, you said it as well as it can be said!!

oldmansax

Let's face it, we both are antiques!

The WC is not really an antique but it has the same style as when it first came out in '37 so I guess that makes it an "antique"! I always tell people it is a '39 or '41 or whatever comes to mind because most think it is a lot older than '60 and I don't want to disappoint them!

Love the '54 Autocar and '64 Diamond Reo, two of my favorites. My problem is that too many are my favorites, I can hardly keep all the batteries charged let alone keep up with the maintenance. The WC is a tractor converted to a dump so I use it quite a bit but not the others.

[gus]

buswarrior,

I don't think you paid any attention to all the posts about how to unload the gears in the trans. This is a very simple thing to do.

You cannot move a shift lever when it is loaded.

[buswarrior]

Gus, the problem is what forces are being applied to the teeth and splines as you attempt to put them into the next gear.

Clutch disengaged for the shift movement into gear, and the rattling in the transmission only has the momentum of the spiinning gear sets behind it. Hard to damage anything.

Clutch engaged, the rattling has the force of coach momentum on one side and the engine power on the other, a particularly risky procedure for teeth or spline damage on a downshift, when the throttle is being used in the attempt to match the gear sets rotating speeds.

Remembering that inexperienced busnuts have no one to guide them in their attempts to learn by themselves, I wouldn't want to try describing a gear changing style that might lead to unneccesary transmission damage, if that new person is out trying something none of us would dream of.
We know better now, but back then....?

Using the clutch in a traditional double clutching style removes a lot of potential for unwitting damage by someone teaching themselves to shift.

Once you have the hang of it, by all means, go clutchless. It's your coach!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[bobofthenorth]

I tried to post this last night but gave up on the flaky wi-fi. 

As usual, BW gives good advice.  You can give your whole drive train one H of a whack when it grabs into gear going down.  I know that Fuller builds good transmissions - I'm just not sure they are good enough for me to finish learning to shift without the clutch.  Gus is 100% right - you can't get it out of gear without unloading the gearset but you can for sure put it back in gear without matching the torque and you will 100% know when that happens.

[HB of CJ]

Lin...don't you just love this board?  Not only will you receive all sorts of good info, you will also get many opinions backed up from cold hard experience--in all directions.

Your decision.  Your choice.  With a little time, practice and fun you will be shifting your coach like an old pro--with or without the clutch.  We are soosss lucky to own buses.   

[Lin]

Yes, there has been a lot of good information.  I am nowhere near trying to shift clutchless.  Maybe I will be able to think about it when I get to point that every shift feels like a divine revelation (or at least as good as sex).  For now I would be happy to go up and down that ladder without any scrapes.  This board is proving wonderful for letting me no how clueless I am about my MCI even though I have had my Superior for 10 years.

[gus]

BN & BW,

You make some good points, however; (Isn't there always a however!), the gears are not loaded if one uses the throttle properly, even going down in the gears. Essentially what you are doing clutchless is the same thing as when you double clutch, you're matching the speed of all the gears.

I maintain that it is easier for a newbie to shift clutchless than to learn to double clutch. Some oldtimers may have forgotten how hard it was to learn to double clutch gracefully. If you double clutch and don't use the proper amount of throttle you're still going to whack the gears!

I'm not saying I don't whack the gears shifting clutchless - I'm saying I don't do it any worse and often much better.

I've driven all kinds of old trucks over the years and thought this bus would be a snap since it was only 4 speeds - ha!! Was I in for a surprise. Hardest thing to shift smoothly I've ever driven.

On my 800 mi trip home when I first got my bus it was the first one I had ever driven so I religiously did the double clutch thing and still raked the gears. I said to heck with it and shifted clutchless and did no worse and sometimes even better - have been doing it ever since.

[lyndon]

Interesting debate. I tend to double-clutch, unless I'm feeling a bit lazy, but never thought much about the extra wear on the clutch and linkage!

If you can shift well one way, you shouldn't have much problem shifting well the other. OTOH, if you're rough (and worse, if you're strong), double-clutching might be a bit more forgiving. My technique is a bit of both, in that I deep clutch out of gear and shallow-clutch into gear (it almost falls in by itself when the time is right). My reasoning is based on the suggestion I heard long ago that damage is done to forks and release bearings from "leaning" on the shifter taking it out of gear, but never having to tear down a transmission, this is hearsay to me.

The only supporting evidence I've noticed is the "feel" of a tranny being different when it is accustomed to being double-clutched vs. not clutched. Double-clutched seem to feel tighter (more like new?) and maybe harder to shift cleanly, vs. sloppy and easy to shift cleanly.

 It seems to me that transmissions shift more easily using the method they have been exposed to over a long period of time. Anyone else notice that?

Don

Additional note: By "deep-clutch", I don't mean to the boards! Your clutch brake won't last long doing that. "Deep clutch" is more like half way, and "shallow-clutch" is just past the release point, or slipping it a bit.

[Tony LEE]

Don't know about in your part of the world but over here it is said that during your heavy vehicle licence test, shifting without using the clutch is an instant fail.
Reading a few operators manuals, I haven't noticed any advocating clutchless changes.
Maybe there is a good reason.

[lyndon]

Don't know about in your part of the world but over here it is said that during your heavy vehicle licence test, shifting without using the clutch is an instant fail.
Reading a few operators manuals, I haven't noticed any advocating clutchless changes.
Maybe there is a good reason.

Can't say I've heard that around these parts, but you'd better keep both hands on the wheel or you'll fail for sure! (Of course, that means bringing an automatic for the road test.)

Don

[Tony LEE]

Would be easier to do the test in an auto but here if you want to drive a crash box you have to have taken the licence test in a crash box.  My wife managed it and she was still grinning ear to ear when they took the photo for her new licence.