Author Topic: Interesting Phenomenon  (Read 8018 times)

Dallas

  • Guest
Interesting Phenomenon
« on: January 25, 2008, 03:13:53 AM »
We've been running on Genset and inverter power for the last two weeks.

The genny is a 3.5K Coleman Powermate and the Inverter is a Sima 2500 watt MSW.

I've been running the generator to charge the house batteries and supply 120V for the rest of our modest needs while working on a 1950 Flx Visicoach out in the tooley bushes.

We run two home type computers from the inverter and have never had any trouble with either of them..... until yesterday.

When I got on line yesterday morning, I couldn't access any (and I do mean ANY) SSL websites. (For you that don't know, that's secure socket layer... the website will start with "HTTPS").

I tried all kinds of things, including deleting and reinstalling Firefox, repairing IE, resore from last known good configuration, playing with internet options, running various command line instructions, messing with the cell phone as modem, etc.

None of this had any effect on the fact that I couldn't even get to "My Ebay" or check email.

Late last night I decided to run Adaware again to see if there was a trojan or adware program blocking access. When I started the program up, it told me that my Adware definitions were 744,346,302 days old and would I like to update them. I clicked "no" as I knew they were up to date as of wednesday morning, and considered it a glitch.

But......

It bugged me all night long and something kept nibbling at my mind.

I finally got up at 03:00 and tried one more time.... no change. Then I shut down my computer for the 50th time but this time I unplugged it from the inverter and waited about 10 minutes before plugging it back in... kind of like resetting the ECM in a GM car.

When I fired my computer back up again, low and behold, everything worked, including being able to access hotmail, Gmail, Ebay and every other SSL website.

This is what I think happened:
The MSW inverter probably isn't at 60 hertz. It probably varies more one way or another as the batteries cahrge and discharge. I don't know this is true, but it does make sense.
The computer is controlled by an internal clock that reads the frequency of the incoming AC voltage, and if it isn't exactly 60 hertz, will build up a greater and greater error.
windows XP uses a time server that automatically updates the clock In Windows but not in the bios or on the motherboard, so the discrepancy is getting larger and larger all the time.

SSL uses an electronic time stamp to tell if the certificates it's looking at are valid, if they aren't, it doesn't let you proceed to the next screen or page.

When I unplugged the computer from the inverter, the internal battery took over again and reset the bios clock. when I plugged back in, the time stamp was acceptable to the SSL websites and let me log in.

Hmmmm, maybe I'm way off, but it did seem to work. What say our more engineering minded computer guru's? After all, I'm just a hardware and software tech.

Enfeebled minds would like to know!

Dallas

Offline bubbaqgal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 04:39:42 AM »
There is a PS to that.  My computer was having the same problem so Dallas had me shut down and unplug and mine is also rolling just like it is supposed to now.  I think he might just be on to something. 
Faith is not believing that God can, It's knowing that God will.

Offline Nick Badame Refrig/ACC

  • 1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4973
  • Nick & Michelle Badame
    • Nick Badame Refrigeration LLC
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2008, 05:15:18 AM »
GREMLINS

Me....
Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com

Offline DavidInWilmNC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
  • 1978 MC-8 as I bought it May 2005
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2008, 05:38:13 AM »
I don't think it has anything to do with the inverter; two of ours did the same thing.  There's a new version of Ad-Aware out and supposedly causes the  date since last updating Ad-Aware SE to be almost 2 million years old!  It still updated correctly, though, and worked fine.  BTW, if one has problems updating definitions in Ad-Aware, you can download them manually at www.lavasoft.com, unzip them, and put the resulting file in Program Files\Lavasoft\Ad-Aware SE Personal\ folder (or whatever / where ever it is on your computer).  I occasionally have to do this.

David

Offline Paso One

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 658
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2008, 05:39:15 AM »
It would be interesting to see how many days adware says now  how old  your definations are.  "Back to the futures"  I bet it was the flx taking you back into time.  :)
68 5303 Fishbowl 40'x102" 6V92 V730 PS, Air shift  4:10 rear axle. ( all added )
1973 MC-5B 8V71 4 speed manual
1970 MC-5A  8V71 4 speed manual
1988 MCI 102 A3 8V92T  4 speed manual (mechanical)
1996 MCI 102 D3 C10  Cat engine 7 speed manual  (destined to be a tiny home )

Dallas

  • Guest
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2008, 06:37:28 AM »
Drat, I got booted just as I was posting!  :P

The Adaware Definitions are now 730,496 days old... a little better than before.

David,
It wasn't only Adaware that was off.. The Cell phone as modem software was also reading strangely, as in January 26, but with no year.

Gotta love computers!

Offline lostagain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3031
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2008, 06:41:51 AM »
The public utilities don't put out exactly 60 hertz all the time eather.
JC
Blackie AB
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740 (sold)
2007 Country Coach Magna, Cummins ISX

cody

  • Guest
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 08:08:03 AM »
Dallas, remember the problems with my desktop? It still thinks it's a toaster, it is only 2 years old and functioned perfectly, I unplugged it and carried it out to the bus, where it sat for about 2 weeks until I tryed to hook it up and use it at BK's and it was a no go, would start to boot and then immediately go into power saver mode and shut down, we never did figure that glitch out.  Even worse for me is it is burning the toast lol.  Tom did take my hard drive and transfer the important files to my laptop but he couldn't get a handle on the computers sudden urge to retire either.

Offline kd5kfl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2008, 08:48:10 AM »
Power lines are maintained at 60 Hz average over a long time. If 60 Hz drops to 59.9 for ten seconds, it is slowly ramped up to 60.1 for 10 seconds, then eased back down to 60.0. Over a long interval it works out to a steady 60.0000. The frequency drifts in the short term but is forced to drift the other way until it all averages out. It is monitored internally and adjusted as required. A "Closed Loop" system.

Clock, as used in electronics, means a steady repetitive frequency. Crystal and digitally synthesized clocks are very consistent in the short term, but also consistently inaccurate. If a clock is supposed to run at 25.000 and it runs at 24.999, it will be very consistently and predictably slow. Crystal clocks are very good for short term use, stopwatches et cetera. Long term, they require external manual resets. An "Open loop" system.

So 60 Hz for the long run; crystal or synthesized for short term measurements. If the computer derives time clues from 60 Hz, you might be right. Commodore 64s did that, I doubt if PCs do. There is no 60 Hz output from the power supply to the motherboard.

Offline Hartley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2008, 08:58:55 AM »
Computers don't get the line frequency to adjust the internal clocks.

All are D.C. powered internally. Yes even desktops.!

There is a CMOS clock with a crystal on the motherboard and a small lithium battery.

What can actually happen is that when you use a non-sine wave inverter there are boatd loads of harmonic noise that is sent into a power supply. This noise can travel across the a.c. to d.c. converter circuits and into the computer. Most d.c. to d.c. converters ( internal ) that are used to generate the multiple voltages for the motherboard can pick up this extra noise which can get into the internal workings and raise havoc with timing to the processors.

Ok, Here is the goodie tech;  Your dc. to ac. Inverter is operating with an output freq of 60 hz. If it is a non sine wave unit it does that in steps. Gernerally 256 steps more or less. Each step has a dirty level shift and creates a harmonic spike. The output filtering is marginal at best and these high and low frequency spikes get into the output which is filtered to pass mostly a 60 hz signal.  Anyone can see this on a scope....

Noisy 60 hz power with the extra noise goes into the computer power supply. This is usually actually a transformerless design or "switching" power supply. These have their own oscillator circuit that converts the input frequency to a high frequency signal at a high voltage. This steps across a small toroid style transformer circuit at about 20 khz. On the other side are a series of  rectifiers and voltage regulators that filter, reduce and output the required voltages for the computer and accessories. Typically 3 volts, 5 volts, 12 volts and -12 volts.

The internal filters are tuned when designed to filter at 60 hz and 20 khz typically to eliminate harmonics from feeding through to the output. These filters may allow other harmonics to pass along and get by and into the output dc voltages...

Confused Yet?

Ok, that;s the theory anyway. Non sinewave inverters can confuse or disrupt the following;

LCD & Plasma TV's ( confuses the onboard computers ) (Causes remotes to not work)
Computer and Laptop power supplies, Any device with a switching type of power supply.
Cell phone chargers and others. Video Switchers, Satellite Receivers (direct & dish )
( on my dish system the +18 volts for the LNB dies occasionally when on inverter power changeover and back ).There's probably more..

Good luck Guys.....

Dave....
Never take a knife to a gunfight!

Offline Sean

  • Geek.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • '85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"
    • Our Odyssey
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 10:26:49 AM »
Dallas,

As Dave said, your computer is not using line frequency for any kind of timing.  In fact, most computer power supplies made today are "universal" -- designed to work fine on either the 60Hz North American standard, or the 50Hz European standard.

Which still leaves you trying to figure out your connectivity issue.

While I do agree with Dave's analysis of how MSW noise can get through power supplies and into sensitive electronics, my direct experience is that most modern electronics, including almost all computers, are not susceptible and work fine on MSW.  (Anything with a motor in it is a different story, including laser printers, which are very sensitive to this problem.)

You did not mention how you are accessing the Internet.  There are a number of issues that can crop up with SSL having to do with proxies, gateways, and firewalls.  If you can tell us how you're set up, I can make a more educated guess.  I would not automatically conclude that the date/time issue with Ad-Aware is at all related to the SSL problem.

You can easily check the date and time on the computer when this problem occurs to see if it is out of whack.  Also, you can tell Windows to automatically keep your computer's clock synchronized to any number of network time servers (unless, like me, your ISP does not route to your IP -- I have to use third-party software to sync my clock).

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

Offline DrivingMissLazy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2634
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 10:54:22 AM »
The public utilities don't put out exactly 60 hertz all the time eather.


The utilities are connected together in a national grid and time corrections are made every night just before midnight. Typically only a few thousands of a second off, but corrected to the national/international atomic time clock for exactly on time.

Richard
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride

Dallas

  • Guest
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 11:20:16 AM »
Thanks Dave and Sean,

I knew I was missing something simple! I did know that Switching power supplies as used in Home PC's deal in DC, Not AC, I guess the excitement I felt when after unplugging the darn thing and then plugging it back in got to me and let me jump two, three or four conclusions. thanks for breaking my fragile little bubble and leading me back on the path to reality.

Now I am stumped..... except...

As Dave mentioned, cell phones and the chargers are at times affected by MSW inverters.

Sean, I access the internet on a AT&T/Cingular 3G connection through my cell phone. I can send you the proxy, gateway and other information if you need it, but trust me, it's usually a fairly simple connection working through the AT&T ISP Server.

The Adaware time stamp was only what got my attention. The Cellphone as Modem logs also showed a date stamp 24 hours+/- in advance of the current date, except that it showed no year stamp which it always has before.

Here's something else to throw a wrench into the monkey works..... I use ICS so that Cat can get online through wireless 802.11G and she was having the same problems, even after my problems had cleared up from the restart... until she shut down and let the computer sit powerless for 10 minutes or so before a restart. After that, her connection was both A.) Hunkey and B.) Dorey.

To add to the confusion, we were parked only about 100' from the local Cingular/Alltel/Verizon cell tower. Could the emissions from the tower have affected the computers? Should I fashion a new baseball cap from alunimuminum foil?

Whee, this is kind of a fun topic and at least I can speak with some intelligence since I was THE IT guy for a small electric company at one time. (Of course I had a staff of one and the employee under me was insubordinate to say the least!)

I was also the Hell desk, umm, I mean Help Desk guy when we set up as an ISP back in the olden days of 14.4 being a fast modem.

Dallas

skipn

  • Guest
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 11:36:29 AM »
Dallas,

    If the cell tower is causing computer problems I
 would move before you become sterile   :)


 Skip

HighTechRedneck

  • Guest
Re: Interesting Phenomenon
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 11:48:12 AM »
Computers are very sensitive to sharp voltage spikes and drops.  When you were working on the Flx, were you running a power saw, electric compressor, or other high power item while a computer was on or in standby?  Most computers can even suffer from "dirty power" even while turned off but still plugged in.

As for why the problem was solved after power was completely removed?  The power supply of most computers supply power to certain circuits, including the memory, even when "off".  I have experienced times when the computer would not boot even after repeated resets and forced shut downs.  But after turnning the power off from the switch on the back of the power supply for at least 15 seconds, it would come up fine.

I have been building and using PC's since the IMSAI and Altair days.  Every since Windows 95 I have been of the opinion that Microsoft incorporated AI (artificial inteligence) subroutines and gave Windows a very mischevious personality at its core.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal