Author Topic: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years  (Read 3118 times)

Offline edroelle

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Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« on: February 23, 2008, 06:34:33 AM »
Not likely to effect any of us, but - Detroit Diesel engines not to be sold to companies outside of the Daimler family in 2010

"Sainte-Claire, Quebec, February 21st 2008―Prevost received notification from Detroit Diesel that Daimler AG plans to discontinue selling Detroit Diesel engines to companies outside of the Daimler family. Beginning in 2010 Detroit Diesel will no longer be active in the Motor Coach market or the Fire Truck market in North America except for businesses owned by Daimler. Detroit Diesel has assured us that they will fully support all of our vehicles equipped with Detroit Diesel engines now and in the future. Prevost has duly signed agreements with Detroit Diesel in that regards. It is unfortunate that Daimler has decided to take some of the choices away from coach owners and operators in North America."

from Prevost-stuff.com and Prevost | Communications Department

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI

Offline buswarrior

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 06:36:40 AM »
And, with a whimper, ends the long reign....

What a ride!

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Offline Len Silva

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 06:44:12 AM »
IIRC, Detroit's daddy, GM Diesel, would not sell outside the GM family.  Just another full circle.

Len

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Offline TomC

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2008, 06:49:34 AM »
This is mainly because of the tightening smog laws and the fact that most engines are going to urea exhaust injection in 2010.  It is hard enough to get the complete truck or bus certified as a unit for the EPA, let alone trying to work with an outside manufacturer.  Since Mercedes-Benz/Freightliner/Detroit Diesel owns Setra, the new DD15 should be available in the best looking bus still.

As to obtaining 2 stroke parts, Detroit Diesel has already stopped production on some of the parts-but are being made by outside sources.  There are still an estimate of over a million 2 stroke engines in service yet.  Good Luck, TomC
Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.

Offline Paso One

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2008, 06:53:28 AM »
  Just another full circle.

Len

Isn't that the truth.

 Isn't that type of thing that got GM in trouble many years ago that opened access to others.
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Offline buswarrior

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2008, 06:56:31 AM »
Hmmm, wonder if we'll see a new owner of a major North American motorcoach manufacturer in which to place those exclusive motors....

Yes, GM was forced by the courts to sell their drivetrains to the competition...

Scared the willy out of them, as you might say the car business was a much bigger target for the monopoly police...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area

Offline Don Fairchild

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2008, 10:00:30 AM »
This will only apply to the on road market and not the off road. When Mtu bought DDC off road they commeted them self's to supporting the two stroke engine for the next 45 years. In conversations I have had with MTU they are serious about keeping the two stroke engines alive. (By the way Roger penske sets on the board of MTU). As far as the number of engines still in the market place DDC will tell you that there are around 700-800,000  left with the majority of them in cal. That is not true. In going to the pacific marine show and the work boat show and talking to boat owners, shop managers and owners, MTU, interstate mcbee and hatch and Kerk there are an estimated 8 mil two strokes still working in the USA.
Most of these engines are in Seattle, alaska, new york and the gulf coast.

Don

Offline Jeremy

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 10:57:25 AM »
Mercedes are a major bus manufacturer in their own right as well as owning Setra. I just had a quick look at the European MB & Setra websites to see if they offer DD engines as an option at the moment (they don't), and I see that their models already come fitted with a second fuel tank for the Adblue (Urea) injection system - as TomC says, another complication that all the engine manufacturers will have to deal with soon.

There was a piece on the TV here a couple of weeks ago about the new controls on vehicles entering central London - vehicles over a certain size (and they specifically mentioned motorhomes) now need to have additional particulate filters fitted to their exhaust systems, at a cost of £x000 per vehicle, or pay an additional high charge for entering the city. The TV item actually showed a Setra coach being fited with one of the filters - they clean up all the soot leaving the exhaust apparently, but whether the soot is burnt somehow or the filters need to be changed regularly I don't know.

Jeremy
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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 11:18:21 AM »
Don, you are right on Stewart and Stevenson probably services 500,000 on the Gulf Coast alone.If it wasn't for our goverment Stewart and Stevenson would own DD now instead of MB but being a contractor for the miltary they thought it would monopolize the engines  for goverment contracts but look at what they use .And FWIW Roger could care less about MTU it's all about the money with him in my opinion he's a jerk sold a company he was going to keep forever DD, I am glad he didn't get EMD the grand daddy of the 2 strokes

Offline JimG

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2008, 08:23:04 PM »
Urea injection - another complication that all the engine manufacturers will have to deal with soon.

Maybe - maybe not. The new generation of Honda diesels meet the emission standards WITHOUT UREA injection. Now if it can be made big enough for our buses. Jim G. - Ohio RTS-II

Jim & Linda Gochnauer Plain City, Ohio
1979 RTS-II 40'X96"

Offline TomC

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2008, 09:24:41 PM »
Yes Honda does have an additional converter that creates the ammonia that is needed for the second reducing catalyst, but so far, the metals and construction of this catalytic converter would be WAY too expensive for big diesels.  With the already running engines using Urea injection, it just isn't a problem.  Granted you'll have to have a second tank of around 50 gal (you burn 1-2% Urea to Diesel burned) for the Urea, but then the engine manufacturers are going to relax the smog control devices on the engine and let the Urea take care of the smog-hence in 2010 the engines should see a measurable increase in fuel mileage.  The new DD15 is already 2-4% more fuel efficient to the present Series 60. With the Urea injected DD15, fuel mileages are once again going to be in the 7-8mpg mark for 80,000lb trucks.  Good Luck, TomC
Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.

Offline jackhartjr

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2008, 04:37:27 AM »
Long long time ago Mack said if you wanted a Mack, you had to buy their engine and drive lines.  In other words you couldn't get a Mack with a Cummins or Detroit or Cat...nor could you get it with a Spicer, Eaton or any other trannsmission.  All Mack.

Mack just about went out of business after that foolish move. 

Be interesting to see what happens!

Jack
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Offline buswarrior

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2008, 07:20:04 AM »
Can't remember which ones, but the on again/off again use of Urea for 2010, of the big boys, some are going to meet 2010 without using Urea.

IIRC, Volvo/Mack were heading for urea, as parents use it already in Europe, Cat and Cummins have figured it out just crank up the EGR.  DD15, can't remember which way they are waffling at the moment.

Some of the heavy stuff seems to make it. The medium duty at this point, seems they'll all need urea to get the emissions down.

Better than a soap opera, it changes, and changes again....

Glad my job isn't hanging in the balance on making the right purchasing choice...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area

Offline TomC

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2008, 09:39:03 AM »
Currently-Cummins is the only engine manufacture that is going into 2010 without the use of Urea and just cranking up on the EGR to come close to EPA requirements.  This is on heals of past years of accumulated EPA smog points that will allow Cummins to use these points up with their "dirtier" engines.  Their points are estimated to run out around 2012 when Cummins will then introduce the Urea injection again.  There are two sides of this-one is that the installation of Cummins engines will not require a price increase on new trucks, but with any increase in EGR function, this will make for worse fuel mileage since more of the heat will be used for EGR and an increase in radiator cooling will have to be facilitated.  I have figured that the initial savings at time of purchase will go by-by around the second year of use with the worse fuel mileage of the Cummins.  Then the sweet taste of the lower initial truck price will be soured every time you go to the fuel pump.  Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, Volvo-Mack, and most others are going with Urea in 2010.  Personally, I think it is a great system since it is relatively simple and the results are great-just getting basically Nitrogen (of which our air is 78%) and water vapor out.  Sounds good to me with the resulting additional cost of buying Urea at a 1-2% rate of Diesel fuel burn.  Good Luck, TomC
Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.

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Re: Detroit Diesels NA in many Buses in a couple years
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2008, 10:15:22 AM »
just getting basically Nitrogen (of which our air is 78%) and water vapor out.  Sounds good to me with the resulting additional cost of buying Urea at a 1-2% rate of Diesel fuel burn.  Good Luck, TomC

I wonder though what the possible ramifications of, over time, pumping extra Nitrogen into the atmosphere will be.  CO2 is also a natural component of air.  But now it is blamed for so much (rightly or wrongly I'm not addressing).  If nitrogen becomes the major gaseous byproduct of combustion, what then?  Already, environmentalists blame heavy use of nitrogen rich fertilizers for coastal and river fishing problems.