Smoking. Cracked ring...??? What to do

[RickB]

Sorry to bring this up but where exactly did the missing parts of the piston go and do they have any plans on checking to see if it's in the bottom end of the motor and if it is has it damaged the crank[

[JohnEd]

While driving away from the first shop his wife, following in the toad, saw sparks flying from the exhaust pipe.  I suspect that most of that chunk is rattling, in smaller pieces, around in the innards of his muffler.  If he had a turbo they would be easier to find in the turbo impeller "filter".

John

[RickB]

John Ed,

The unsettling word in your post is the word "most". I am imagining that Marc is looking for the word "all". 

I know that it feels like this situation was bad before but if he drives down the road and two months from now part of the "most" that didn't go out the exhaust decides to make a cameo. Now, folks that would really suck.

Here's hoping that between the oil filter, the oil change, the magnetic oil plug and good old thorough follow through on the part of the Williams folks gets rid of any remaining fragments.

Marc, I do agree with the earlier post that if they are pulling the pan roll in some new bearings. That can't be all that expensive while they are in there. iIwould at least get an estimate.

Good luck friend

[thejumpsuitman]

They have to drop the pan to do replace the piston, so I guess they will see.  But since he could see the chunk missing when he removed the head, I am thinking it pushed it all out the top and out the exhaust valve.

[thejumpsuitman]

Marc, I do agree with the earlier post that if they are pulling the pan roll in some new bearings. That can't be all that expensive while they are in there. iIwould at least get an estimate.

Good luck friend

Given the numbers they have been quoting me so far, my estimate is one arm and one leg.

[bevans6]

It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you.  If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner...  it's just how it goes.  A normal person just can't afford much in a pro shop these days.  I recently had my eyes opened very wide, accompanied by a panic attack - my wife's mother fell and did soft tissue damage to her knee - a lot of pain, can't walk, and is too weak to be able to self transfer to a wheel chair or anything like that.  she lives in a Retirement Villa sort of place, the rent is already $3K a month.  We had to have an around the clock "personal support worker" to assist, which are tremendous people but the lowest possible tier of care workers making little more than minimum wage.  $25 per hour to the agency, 24 hours a day = $600 a day or $4200 a week, or $18,000 if I had the serious misfortune to have to have need for that for a month...

Things just cost a lot these days if actual people are involved in the doing of them...


Brian

[chart1]

They will see the rod bearing and crank journal when they replace the engine no need to give them any intention that you want to spend more money

[thejumpsuitman]

It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you.  If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner...  it's just how it goes.....

Yes, overhead will kill you, that's why I run both of our business out of our home.  And I know that a National chain has extremely high overhead.  That's why I am going to get them to do as little as I have to.  If the bus needs more work, I will go to a smaller shop where they can afford to charge me less.  I am jut a "normal person" as you say... (though some might disagree) 

[JohnEd]

I'll start with the easy round numbers:
60mph @10mpg = 6 gallons per hour
6 gallons ÷ 8 cylinders = .75 gallon per injector

Sounds close doesn't it?

Someone else can figure out how much went out the tailpipe.  

I don't agree that the fuel in the oil came from the cylinder and I think this post sorta proves it....  With no compression I think "all" the injected fuel would go out the exhaust.  You can't really subtract a whole lot from .75 to get it "down" to 1.0, not to put to fine an edge on it...   So  at the very least, some fuel was coming from somewhere else and I think ALL the dilution was caused by leakage from injector plumbing that was worked on or disturbed by W.  I have read lots of posts about fuel dilution caused by cracked or broken injector fuel lines.  This puppy had no history of fuel dilution, the shop was into the injectors and afterwards there was a huge fuel leak and why the experts here are still mulling the "reason" just simply amazes me no end.  No end!  I am not saying that that is the reason conclusively...truly, I am not.  But I think that needs to be eliminated and the current shop can be guaranteed to "NOT" find any loose/broken hoses to any injectors.  They are already on record with "there is no fuel dilution" and it is easy to understand their reasoning/motivation.

I have copied that formula for determining fuel flow in a cylinder.  wasn't deep but I have never seen it and it make intuitive sense.  Thank you, Ted.

John

[JohnEd]

It's scarier than that...  The injector did NOT come apart, they showed it to me. 

The scary part to me is why anyone would hang their hat on "anything" those birds had to say.  Keep'em talking....for sure.  Run the dialog past your good and well intensioned friends, but, don't draw any firm conclusions.  I would view all that they say through the jaundiced lens of "what reason would they have to lie?" and keep smiling and nodding.  They have proven themselves to be unreliable sources and that isn't our fault or attributable to any paranoia.  Ask to see the oil analysis that states there is no fuel in your oil.  Ask to see that and I'll bet they tell you you are unreasonable and not cooperating.  How much?

[JohnEd]

It costs a lot of money to have a man who is an employee in a well equipped shop who is supporting a family and expects to have a good standard of living do work for you.  If you think a good wage is $30 an hour (I don't, personally, but I don't know what a journeyman mechanic expects to make these days), expect the shop to have to charge 4 times that to cover the overhead, the space, insurance, power, tooling, profit for the owner...  it's just how it goes.  A normal person just can't afford much in a pro shop these days.  I recently had my eyes opened very wide, accompanied by a panic attack - my wife's mother fell and did soft tissue damage to her knee - a lot of pain, can't walk, and is too weak to be able to self transfer to a wheel chair or anything like that.  she lives in a Retirement Villa sort of place, the rent is already $3K a month.  We had to have an around the clock "personal support worker" to assist, which are tremendous people but the lowest possible tier of care workers making little more than minimum wage.  $25 per hour to the agency, 24 hours a day = $600 a day or $4200 a week, or $18,000 if I had the serious misfortune to have to have need for that for a month...

Things just cost a lot these days if actual people are involved in the doing of them...


Brian

And that is why we are blessed when we find an honest shop that is well intentioned and reasonable in assigning costs.  Truly a great find.  And we tell our friends, and, somewhat out of gratitude, we encourage patronage.  By the same token, and to add value to our recommendations, we share our dismal experiences with a word of caution.  To our friends.

We would be  SOL if these enclaves of expertise were not available.  And to think that they are all honest or fair or not opportunistic is to deny that power corrupts and that there is greed buried in the "for profit" model.  Look at all the agencies dedicated to consumer protection and the mountain of tort law and then say that these people(all of us to be fair) don't need any policing or inflicted responsibility.  For example: An airliner falling out of the sky due to faulty maint would be considered criminal and a tragedy by the FAA but the business community would see this as the airline industry "self correcting".  Ya just gotta keep perspective.

John

[luvrbus]

I give up on posting photos here I have some photos to show you guys what will happen guarantee that injector is not intact or they would not have replaced it, I still think he lost a tip first no compression it will build up fuel and run into the air box and back to the pan not out the tail pipe.
You guys not being there need to lighten up on Williams they have good techs now Montgomery is a ? just like a lot of DD shops that display the DD sign it maybe one for 4 strokes only you see that truck dealers across the USA.
 I have never been into a major DD dealer that did not have good 2 stroke techs at Stewart and Stevenson the guys just about come to blows to see who gets the job on a 2 stroke lol and they do a ton of work on buses with the 2 stroke and so does Williams and the others depending om the location a DD dealers rates are around 90 bucks a hour and no extra charge for the RV  


good luck

[thejumpsuitman]

They are going to email me some pics of the engine showing the damage.  The mechanic said all the debris would have been blown out the exhaust.  The fellow working on it seems like a good guy and really sounds like he knows his stuff.  I'll post the pics when I get them.

[luvrbus]

Marc if it can get pass the 4 small valves in the head it go out the exhaust if not it will stay there till it breaks into smaller pieces or goes out a cylinder port hole either way it is going to cost you valves or a head most of the time

[Gary LaBombard]

Not to distract from this thread post but I hope after MarC has his bus back that all you busnuts that have had good experiences from repair shops that do know how to trouble shoot and repair 2 stroke DD's and 4 stroke as well will post shop names, address and phone numbers.  

I hope the moderators on this board can make a section special just for this information we can refer to while we travel on the road, on a Saturday & Sunday as well.  We cannot expect Clifford to be there by the phone all the time for us but I do know he knows a lot of people and shops, I mean a lot of people that will help us on the road.

This experience MarC is going through is unfortunate for sure and many, many of us are pulling for him to have this resolved very soon.  My stomach turns at just thinking of this happening to me if if it did, but if I knew a shop was within a reasonable distance that knew these ole girls I would do all I could to get there.  This information is requested by those actually using these shops and not by word of mouth.  

We all wish Cliff would start a DD repair shop chain but know he won't, hell, why not Cliff.  Just Kidding!!  Thanks Cliff for all you have done advising MarC during this unfortunate break down.

I am not sure if it is possible to also post towing packages that would allow us to choose the repair shop we want to use from the information from the recommended shops on the bb'd in the area we are traveling.  I know many towing packages only bring you to the nearest repair facility which is not always affordable to us to consider.  Are there towing packages available that will go up to say 150 miles to a reputable dd repair person or shop?  If so is it legal to mention that here, we should all have this information to consider for our own conversion travels.

I am sure a lot of good will come out of this terrible break down of MarC's, I know I have different plans now with my engine before we go very far, if I ever get to go that is.  I will, I will.

Good Luck MarC, we are all pulling for you buddy.

Garylee