BCM Community
Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: TNBrett on May 29, 2023, 07:51:20 PM
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So, this weekend I drove 400 miles to check out a '64 MC-5. I spent several hours checking things out, and eventually my wife and I decided that we wanted to buy it. We settled on a price with the seller, and we are now the proud owners of a huge project. This bus needs a lot of work. It's an older conversion, I'm guessing in the early 80's, but most of that will need to be gutted and redone. We'll probably reconfigure things quite a bit to better suit our wants as well.
All that will have to wait. The first priority is getting it roadworthy so we can get it back home to Tennessee. We did manage to get the engine started. That was a challenge in itself on two group 24 batteries, and some seriously sketchy battery cables. The 8v71 could use a tune-up, I've done that before on a couple of different 53 series. It built air pretty slowly at idle, but I want to address a couple of air leaks before I condemn the compressor. It did better at about half throttle, but of course the high idle was inoperable. The suspension filled up, and I was able to get a glimpse of everything underneath. the airbags didn't look too bad, and from a distance I didn't see any obviously bad air hoses. The tires should be decent enough for the ride home. 2014 on the drives, and 2017 on the steer. The PO just had some used tires put on it. It's got Alcoa's front and rear. Once the air was up, I released the parking brake, and tried to pull the bus forward. It took a couple of decent applications of the service brakes, but they broke loose. I pulled forward a couple of feet, figured out how to work the solenoid reverse, and backed back up the couple of feet. That was the extent of my test drive.
I know I have a lot of work ahead of me to get it home I'll need to get the wheels off and inspect brakes and bearings and seals. I'll need to adjust the valves and injectors, straighten out some janky plumbing on the fuel lines, and change fluids and filters. I'm not too worried about any of that. The electrical system needs some attention. For the time being I'm thinking I'll throw a 24v 10si one wire alternator on it, and disconnect everything but lights, guages, and engine controls. There was a delco 12v alternator added as part of the original refit I assume, so that should be an easy swap out for the short term at least. The wiring doesn't intimidate me, but I'm expecting it to take some time sorting through it all. The only thing I'm a little concerned about is the windshields. The glass is good on both of them, but the mounting rubber is almost non existent at this point. I've seen videos of guys doing back glasses in pick ups etc., but I've never done it myself. I'm not so sure this is the one I want to learn on. Does anyone know if the rubbers are still available? Would this be a Luke item? I've never spoken with the guy, but I've heard his name thrown around quite a bit.
Anyway, I suppose that's enough for tonight. I'll work on trying to get a couple of pics of the bus posted tommorow. Oh, and don't worry about hurting my feelings about the condition of the bus. I know its going to be a lot of hours and a lot of dollars. I'm in the bus for less than the asking price of pretty much any running Detroit, or a beater car for that matter. I explained it to my wife that we just bought a really big horse. The purchase price is the cheap part.
Brett
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Brett -
Welcome to the madness! Busnutitus is incurable, but it can be controlled. . .
A '64 MC-5A weighs about the same as my old '78 MC-5C, so 85psi all around will probably be real close to the recommended pressures once you run the coach across a CAT scale and compare the axle weights to the Michelin load/inflation tables. Don't make an extended run without doing so.
Build the air pressure up to 120psi, push down on the parking brake knob, THEN do a full service brake application, holding it for approximately 5 seconds before releasing. DD3s can be persnickety releasing if you don't do it right.
If the 8V71 in your coach has spin on fuel filters, grab a couple of NAPA Gold 3118s and 3120s for your trip, and a NAPA Gold 1970 oil filter if you're going to change the oil before commencing your journey.
Detroit Power Guard 40, Mobil Delvac 1240, Chevron Delo 100 and Shell Rotella T are the most popular and correct oils for that 8V71. These are normally not on the shelf at your local parts palace, they usually have to be ordered from a local distributor. Summit Racing often has the Delvac 1240 on sale, but it usually sells out quickly and becomes back-ordered, so I usually order in advance so I have it in stock personally. (Link below for Mobil dealer locator - several in TN) DON'T use multi-weight, but you probably already know that, since you've futzed around with 53s.
Luke may have new windshield rubber, give him a call at 1-888-262-2434. Chris Newton may also have some, he's only on Facebook's MCI pages, tho.
Two 8D batteries were stock, I had good success with two Group 31s for chassis use, but I lived in a milder climate at the time.
The 12vdc Delco alternator is probably for the house batteries. Your coach came from the factory with a 24vdc Delco DN50 alternator, belt-driven on the driver's side of the engine, accessible thru the street-side engine access door, plus the access panel in the interior rear of the coach (hopefully not covered by the converter!) Suggest a set of matched belts if the current ones look sketchy. If an automatic, the transmission dipstick is also located inside this door, usually found underneath the alternator and slightly forward. Check oil level warm with engine idling and transmission in N.
If the coach has been converted from the manual 4-spd to an automatic, you'll get approximately 7mpg, possibly 9 if it's still a stickshift. Since most MCIs of that vintage did not have a fuel gauge, use the "500 mile" rule to avoid running the tank dry - it's no fun trying to reprime a Detroit alongside the highway at Oh Dark Thirty in the rain! The stock tank on your model is 144g, figure 125 usable.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
RJ
Mobil Delvac 1240 Locator:
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-businesses/industrial/lubricants-distributors/search/?longitude1=-142.72935986250002&longitude2=-54.39928173750002&latitude1=21.003122153018108&latitude2=54.597931885104245&radius=50&zoom=4
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Luke has windshield rubber. :)
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Yes, Luke has the windshield rubbers. They're on their way.
RJ- Thanks for the tip on the inflation tables. I hadn't thought about that yet. I'm pretty familiar with the challenges of finding straight 40w oil. I have an oil distributor that I use at work who has been able to get it for me in the past. I'm also covered on filters too. I have Donaldson/ Baldwin dealer that I buy all of my filters through. They usually have even the oddest stuff in stock, and beat NAPA on price. This engine currently still has a canister style oil filter. I'll go ahead and grab the spin on adapter and change it over. I was planning on going with the 8d's, and making up some 4/0 battery cables. The original generator is still there, but I'm pretty sure the regulator is toast.
Now, let's see if I can make pictures work.
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Biggest tip I can give you is to drive home 55 to 60 MAX and non interstate secondary roads are fine. Less chance of major engine and mechanical issues cropping up instead interstate at 70 to 75.
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I guess that worked, let's try a few more.
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Biggest tip I can give you is to drive home 55 to 60 MAX and non interstate secondary roads are fine. Less chance of major engine and mechanical issues cropping up instead interstate at 70 to 75.
I'll probably end up on the interstate at 60 or so. Around here, non interstate often means no shoulder. I'm not too worried about getting passed, or other drivers getting mad. Seems almost everyone on the road stays mad anyway.
Does anyone have any experience doing the windshields? Any advice to pass along on that?
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For me buy tow insurance. We have Coach Net, haven't used it in a long time but when you do it's gold, just don't except fast service.
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I have Donaldson/ Baldwin dealer that I buy all of my filters through.
Brett -
Baldwin/Donaldson work just as well for me, I'm just closer to a NAPA store, and buy mine when they have their semi-annual (spring/fall) sale. NAPA Golds are made by WIX, fyi.
I'm pretty familiar with the challenges of finding straight 40w oil. I have an oil distributor that I use at work who has been able to get it for me in the past.
Personal anecdote: When I first got my 5C, it had a fresh oil change using Chevron Delo 100, and two cases (six gallons) in a bay. Consumption was around 850-900 miles on a gallon. Next oil change, at the recommendation of Clifford and some other busnuts, I switched to Mobil Delvac 1240 (same oil as Detroit's Power Guard 40, just private labeled.) Surprisingly, my oil consumption dropped - I was now going 1700-1800 miles on a gallon. So I'm still using Delvac, now in the 8V92t stuffed in the tail of my Prevost, where I'm getting 2500-3000 miles on a gallon, since this coach had a fresh out-of-frame overhaul when I bought it. Of course, YMMV. . .
Oh, the photos posted fine.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
RJ
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Google bus windshield replacement and see what comes up. I saw one not too long ago that a young couple did on a 4106?. They replaced both windshields, and even though they broke one due to rushing and had to order another, saved $700 over what they had been quoted to have it done.
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With new windshield rubbers it is pretty easy, I roped mine in on the MC8. I think that is the method glass installers use, at least used to. It is a method where you put the rubber seal on the windshield and then wrap a rope around the seal where it fits over the pinch weld. You can start the bottom of the seal just by setting the windshield in the frame. You will need help, someone hold the glass in place outside and a second person pulls the rope inside the bus. As you pull the rope it pulls the inside of the seal along with the rope. Patting or slapping the glass is necessary as you go to seat the rubber and glass in place as you work around the seal.
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That's the way I did it on my DL3 but with both of us on the outside. A lot of slapping the glass was involved, shoving sideways with a suction cup, etc. It took a couple days for the last edge to settle back down. Also there is a wicking type of rtv sealant made for windshields now that seems to work pretty good. Apply that after it all has had plenty of time to heat cycle and settle in.
Jim
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Very nice, classic bus.
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So I did a bit of looking, and everything I’ve seen looks like you start with the rubber on the frame first if it’s a lock strip style. It actually looks like it may be the easier style.
Google bus windshield replacement and see what comes up. I saw one not too long ago that a young couple did on a 4106?. They replaced both windshields, and even though they broke one due to rushing and had to order another, saved $700 over what they had been quoted to have it done.
I saw this one too. I feel like it’s something I should be able to handle. I checked with several glass people, and the only one that was willing quoted me at $1500 labor only, not responsible for broken glass.
RJ- I’ll keep the Delvac 1240 in mind. I’ve already got some Rotella T1 on hand.
I’ve also looked at the Coach-net towing insurance briefly. I need to call them at some point and get that set up. With other stuff being already scheduled, it’s going to be a couple of weeks before I can make it back to the bus and do any work, and I’ve got at least 2 or 3 long weekends of work before she’s ready for a trip home. It’ll all happen soon enough though.
Any way thanks for all the tips and kind words I’ll do my best to keep the board updated.
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I’ve also looked at the Coach-net towing insurance briefly. I need to call them at some point and get that set up. With other stuff being already scheduled, it’s going to be a couple of weeks before I can make it back to the bus and do any work, and I’ve got at least 2 or 3 long weekends of work before she’s ready for a trip home. It’ll all happen soon enough though.
Any way thanks for all the tips and kind words I’ll do my best to keep the board updated.
Their web site doesn't really handle older buses that don't have VIN numbers so you have to call them...
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I've been working on rounding up as much stuff as I can to make a trip out to work on the bus. I've also been going through manuals to try and familiarize myself as best as I can. I've got a couple of quick questions though.
First off can someone confirm that the MC-5 not 5A battery trays will fit a modern 8D? The only manual I've been able to find is for a 5A and it lists the batteries as 8D's, but the measurements I took seem a little tight compared to what's published for the size.
Second, the bus currently has N60 injectors in it. The Detroit manual I have calls for 1.460 for those injectors, with a note for 1.470 for "city coach engines". Does anybody know what that is about? I assume setting them at 1.460 is correct.
Thanks
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The 1.470 will give you less smoke it advances the timing but you loose a few HP
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The 1.470 will give you less smoke it advances the timing but you loose a few HP
I assumed the change was probably for reducing smoke, maybe especially at idle. But, Wouldn't a taller injector height actually be retarding the timing?
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Transit engines used .85 height liners ports yours is probably has .95 height ports setting change to get the air to fuel ratio close DD never mastered that
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I've got a MC-5 (not 5A) and 8Ds fit fine for me.
Jed
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Yes, Luke has the windshield rubbers. They're on their way.
RJ- Thanks for the tip on the inflation tables. I hadn't thought about that yet. I'm pretty familiar with the challenges of finding straight 40w oil. I have an oil distributor that I use at work who has been able to get it for me in the past. I'm also covered on filters too. I have Donaldson/ Baldwin dealer that I buy all of my filters through. They usually have even the oddest stuff in stock, and beat NAPA on price. This engine currently still has a canister style oil filter. I'll go ahead and grab the spin on adapter and change it over. I was planning on going with the 8d's, and making up some 4/0 battery cables. The original generator is still there, but I'm pretty sure the regulator is toast.
Now, let's see if I can make pictures work.If you have an O'RILYS store close to you they can get Shell 40w oil in a couple of days.
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So my wife and I went out to work on the bus last weekend. We had a pretty productive trip. We replaced the rubber windshield channels. That only took a couple of hours, and went pretty well. but we did end up cracking the drivers side up at the top inside corner. Removal took about 2 seconds. The windshields were really just sitting there. We attached suction cups on the inside and outside. I literally just picked each windshield up out of the opening, and handed it down to my wife. we had a baker scaffold set up in front of the bus, and it was really nice having a solid platform to work from. It definitely worked best having one person on the inside, and one outside. I'll try and include a pic of the windshield rubber before. I didn't take many pics of our work, it was pretty much a 2 day marathon in the sun and heat.
I adjusted the valves and injectors (they weren't very far from where they needed to be). I changed the engine oil and filter( I ended up staying with the canister for now, as the spin on adapter wouldn't have come in in time). I took a sample of fuel from the tank drain, and it looked really good. I changed both fuel filters, and removed some "extra" pieces someone had added. I'm sure they thought they were helping things with an outboard motor primer bulb, and a small facet fuel pump, all plumbed with air hose fittings instead of hose barbs. I also drained all of the coolant, and refilled it with the Napa Pink precharged coolant, along with a new spin on coolant filter (no additive).
I made up some new 4/0 battery cables for the forward battery compartment, and installed the two new 8D batteries. I was thoroughly disappointed when I tried to start it. the starter would bafrely turn the engine over. I checked voltage at the starter, and it looked good. I decided to remove the starter and check it out I cleaned it up, polished the commutator (it was pretty dull), and lubed up the bushings. I was once again disappointed with the performance. Long ago, the original AC compressor had been removed, and a flat floor installed in that space, so I decided to try relocating the batteries back there closer to the starter instead of relying on the long run of cable from the battery disconnect. Finally the starter spun the engine over the way it should, and it came alive. The idle was smooth immediately. When we had it started before, it took quite a bit of cranking, and a little shot of ether to get it to light, and the idle was rather inconsistent. I'm blaming 20 year old fuel filters, and plenty of air intrusion from those "extra" parts for that now. I think for the trip home the batteries will ride back there, and I will decide on a permanent location later on. There's a side of me that thinks it just makes more sense for them to be back there, but part of me likes the fancy battery drawers and the disconnect switch.
I pulled the belts and wiring off of the 50DN, and installed a 45amp 24v Delco 10si one wire alternator in place of the 12v alternator that had been installed for the house battery. I also made up a cable to run from the new alternator to the rear distribution panel where the 50DN used to feed to. I now have a bus that starts easily, and charges.
Somewhere along the line someone installed a signalstat 900 turn signal switch and fed it off of the 12v system, Which is currently not in use. I fed 24 v to the flasher, and changed all the bulbs back to 24v (1203 iirc) and low and behold I have turn signals. After figuring out that the brake lights don't work with the parking brake set, it turns out I had brake lights too. I put the correct 24v bulbs in there too as they had 1156's in them. Wouldn't you know it, even the headlights came on, high beams too. I don't have running lights yet, but I'm not planning on driving back in the dark at all, so they can wait.
After checking air pressure in the tires, I decided to drive around in the storage yard a bit. After getting a little more comfortable with it, I even decided to drive a couple of miles to the gas station and throw some fuel in her. She took 120 gallons on top of the 5 I had thrown in from a fuel can. Obviously, they had let her get pretty empty. Driving her for the first time was pretty intense. By the time I got back to the yard, shifting was getting easier, and I even managed to down shift a couple of times.
So, she's currently running and driving, but not ready for a trip home yet. The rear brakes are covered in oil. I've already received a package from Luke with new brake linings front and rear, as well as new seals, gaskets and dust caps. After talking with him, I'm planning on going with grease front and rear. I also found a couple of small air leaks. First, the low air warning switch up front was leaking (got a new one). Second, I could hear air escaping from the relay valve with the parking brake applied. Luke suggested it was likely a leaking parking diaphragm, so I got 2 of those as well.
So, that kind of brings you guys up to speed on things. One question I have is if anyone knows the size socket I need for the spindle nuts front and rear? Also, the more I think about it, I think I want to have complete rebuild kits for the DD3's and the front actuators on hand for my next trip out to work on it. I'm hoping to do the brakes and bearings at all 4 corners, and check the oil in the trans, differential, and drop box. At that point I think she'll be ready to come home.
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Great progress. sounds like it all well quite well overall, especially getting the motor fired and the short trip showed the basics are functional.
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You are dealing with a bus with a drop be sure the drop box is full,the differential and drop box are 1 unit when filling,drop boxes will fail with too little grease and they are getting hard to find,me I would buy 5 gals and change it
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You are dealing with a bus with a drop be sure the drop box is full,the differential and drop box are 1 unit when filling,drop boxes will fail with too little grease and they are getting hard to find,me I would buy 5 gals and change it
Yeah, I thought about it after I posted my last comment, and there's no reason not to go ahead and change the transmission and diff lubes. I assume that 85w140 gear oil for the diff and drop box, and 50w HD transmission oil for the trans would be appropriate. does anyone happen to have an idea of their capacities?
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You need 5 gal for the drop box ,and will have about 2 or 3 qts left over,the transmission takes 10qts (2.5 gals)
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You need 5 gal for the drop box ,and will have about 2 or 3 qts left over,the transmission takes 10qts (2.5 gals)
Thanks