Engine swap presentation questions

[mikelutestanski]

Hello : 
  Having completed an engine swap MCI 7 Cummins L10/ Allison B400R ; I agreed to do a show and tell at Jacks rally. I am wondering what information to impart to any who are interested. It would be advantageous to me to know beforehand what you would like to know about this project. That would help me gather my thoughts and concentrate on what is important to you the listener.
    My questions are as follows:
       What is important for you to know?
       Some examples are as follows
       Are the nuts and bolts important ie what had to be done and why?
             1: tooling and work areas required  for example
             2: How much help is needed ?
             3: Books; manuals; and required reading.               
       Money matters:   What costs were incurred?
       Perserverence and patience
       What goals are achieveable?
  These are a few of my questions but I really want to make this enlightening and interesting experience; so that one can come away with enough information to make an informed decision (if any are interested in this adventure).

   Another project that we finished along with the interior of the bus is the dash air system.  I wonder if there is enough interest to do a show and tell about that?
   I am not the best in oratorial and presentation skills so keep that in mind but I do care to do the best I can  to make this time worthwhile.
     
   Regards   and happy bussin   Mike
       

[TomC]

Especially with an MCI and its' marginal cooling system.  Since you used a L10, you didn't need an air to air intercooler.  But now most engines have an air to air intercooler (I have one on my 8V-71 turbo).  I've seen one where the owner installed two intercoolers-one in front of each radiator.  And I've seen where Grayhound converted some to Series 50's and just plainly took out one of the radiators and replaced it with the air to air intercooler.  I'd like to know what you did with the cooling system and how well it cools now.  My guess is that with the standard radiators, the L10 would cool better than the 6V-92TA.  Good Luck, TomC

[rv_safetyman]

Hi Mike.  As you may recall, Sonnie Gray and I did an engine conversion "seminar"/round table twice at Jack and Paula's great rally.

We had a ton of fun with it and it generated great audience participation.  Sonnie and I get into a friendly battle over mechanical vs electronic engines (can't help it if he is wrong ).

I put together a Power Point slide show for the presentation that included a bunch of "unusual" engine conversions and lots of photos of different approaches to installing engines.  Also addressed the many issues such as 2 vs 4 stoke, gearing, etc.

Drop me a snail mail address at jim at rvsafetysystems dot com and I will send the presentation on a CD

Jim

[bobofthenorth]

I'll be in the audience.  I'd be more interested in a high level discussion than the nuts and bolts of what bracket needs to be modified to put what engine in the hole.  Anybody who is competent to do the conversion will figure that stuff out.  The bigger issues as far as I am concerned are what engine works with what transmission/rear end, what the cooling considerations are, where to get resource information.  If I get lined up with an engine/trans combo that will work and will fit I can flat out guarantee you we'll figure out the rest - the challenge is getting to the point where you plunk down some coin for the new powerplant.

IMNTBHO

[rv_safetyman]

Hi Bob.  I wrote to Mike off line and suggested the same thing. 

That is the approach we took with our seminars a couple of years ago.  We also divided the program into a presentation of major considerations and then had a great round table with the folks attending.  Many of the folks there had done engine conversions and that really added to the content.  I think one, maybe both years, we did a tour of the coaches with engine conversions and let people look at various conversions.

We talked about all of us staring at the back of a bus with an engine conversion (indeed, many) and not having a clue of what is involved. 

We did quite a bit of "tips" on doing the conversion.  For example we showed a simple tool for rolling beads on tubing for the water and air connections (really important!!!!).  We discussed mounting philosophy; dolly installation vs fork lift installation (makes a difference).  While we discussed 2 vs 4 stoke a bit, we mostly concentrated on 4 stroke installations and some of the challenges that brings (mostly gearing and air to air on most engines)

Lots of overview things need to be covered

Jim

[bobofthenorth]

The other thing I'd like to know is "what are the gotcha moments?"  The times when everything appears to be going well until you discover that the driveshaft has to be negative 6" long to fit or the alternator needs a cutaway into the frame rail or ..... you get the idea.  I doubt that I will ever do a swap but it doesn't cost much to dream.  Today, looking at the snow out the window, I'm dreaming of palm trees and counting the days until we leave - 25 to be exact.

[makemineatwostroke]

That should be a very interesting seminar for MCI folks the Eagle and Prevost is like a walk in the park compaired to a MCI engine swap, the model 20 Eagle is a bit more of a challenge   have a great day

[rv_safetyman]

I am not an expert on MCI engine conversions, but they are out there.  One of the best documented is Brian Diehl's:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ediehls0792_1/BusSection10.html

That is a great website that if fun to read even if you don't have an MCI or plan on an engine conversion.

Jim

[lostagain]

Jim, can you tell or show what tool you use to roll a bead on tubing?

JC

[luvrbus]

Looking at some of the engine swaps even by the so called pros they did not take in any consideration for servicing the engine with out removing the engine.I know of a 60s in a Eagle that the guy can not remove the valve cover to adjust valves   good luck

[mikelutestanski]

Hello;
    The point about service after installation is a very good one.  I have some tales to tell about that one . 
    One of the gotchtas in my project concerns the removal of a fitting; if  and I say if that ever needed to be done.
      THe problem and the solution will be a part of the seminar.   HAH   A little sales plug there.  Seriously   how many new right out of the factory engineered products (especially cars) have you worked on that were easy to perform planned maintenance tasks?    Sometimes there is an abundance of blue smoke when the new models come out and the mechanics are trying to figure out how to change the oil filter for example or a spark plug or water pump.
    The service topic is one that should be considered as part of the design effort to insure it gets done correctly.
     Regards and Happy bussin  Mike
     

[rv_safetyman]

JC, I show the bead roller on the following page of my project pages:

http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject5.htm

I also give the source and show some pictures (the pictures are thumbnail, so click on them so that you can see the detail).

I had to build a small guide on the bead roller, but once I got that in place, it was fun to roll the beads.  In fact, I rolled a few extra on scrap tubing .

I used exhaust tubing for all of the plumbing.  Without the beads, I am sure I would have had problems.  Indeed, I blew the air-to-air hoses a few times in the early trips, even with the beads.  Silicone hose is great, but it is hard to seal and keep on.  I have quite a few silicone "hump" hoses on this plumbing.  I used spring clamps, but that still did not keep them from blowing off.  I think I finally resorted to double clamping most of them.  I have not had any problems in the last 30K miles.  I think they finally "bond" to the paint/metal after a while.

BTW, if you do the calculations, a 4 inch pipe has about 12 square inches of area and at 25 psi boost, that amounts to about 300 pounds of separation force!!!  No wonder the hose is hard to keep on .

Jim

[Dallas]

Jim,
An old timer taught me a little trick when using silicone hose and stopping blow-offs, cold water leaks, etc....

Buy a tube of 3M Super Weatherstrip Adhesive, Yellow and put a bead on both the pipe and the hose. let it cure for about 15 minutes and then tighten the clamp down.... you'll seldom ever have another blow off or cold water leak.

Dallas

JC, I show the bead roller on the following page of my project pages:

http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject5.htm

I also give the source and show some pictures (the pictures are thumbnail, so click on them so that you can see the detail).

I had to build a small guide on the bead roller, but once I got that in place, it was fun to roll the beads.  In fact, I rolled a few extra on scrap tubing .

I used exhaust tubing for all of the plumbing.  Without the beads, I am sure I would have had problems.  Indeed, I blew the air-to-air hoses a few times in the early trips, even with the beads.  Silicone hose is great, but it is hard to seal and keep on.  I have quite a few silicone "hump" hoses on this plumbing.  I used spring clamps, but that still did not keep them from blowing off.  I think I finally resorted to double clamping most of them.  I have not had any problems in the last 30K miles.  I think they finally "bond" to the paint/metal after a while.

BTW, if you do the calculations, a 4 inch pipe has about 12 square inches of area and at 25 psi boost, that amounts to about 300 pounds of separation force!!!  No wonder the hose is hard to keep on .

Jim

[lostagain]

Thank you Jim, the charge air tubing I built between the turbo and the blower pops off sometimes. I have it tied with baling wire for now to keep it together, but I would like to roll some beads on the tubing so it stays together. Maybe I can find a shop with a roller and have it done. Take care,

JC 

[rv_safetyman]

Hi JC. Most any street rod shop will have a bead roller.  Commonly used to roll beads on floor panels to stiffen them up

If you can't find something, I can ship you mine for a few days.  Not sure if there are any issues getting it into a foreign country  .

I normally ship via UPS (have daily pickup), but not sure if I need a special certification.  If you need me to send it to you, I will find a way.  It is pretty heavy (at least 20 pounds).

Jim