Author Topic: Insurance during bus build  (Read 6664 times)

Offline Jcparmley

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2018, 05:37:06 PM »
Buswarrior

With all due respect, I haven't made anything up.  I was told today that if there is an accident and I don't have the correct insurance it's an immediate $400.00 fine.  If the authorities find out that I have insurance as a private "Motorhome" and it's actually still considered a commercial "bus" (which it still is by Wisconsin law) the insurance can and will go after me for insurance fraud.  I am a Lutheran pastor.  Think about what would happen to my career if I was charged with fraud.  Wisconsin dosen't mess around with insurance issues. 

I came to this board to simply ask a question. You all have much more experience with this then me considering I just purchased the bus in March.

GEEZUS... quit makin' $#!% up.

It is what it says it is on the ownership. The rest doesn't matter.

It is a motorhome, and to reinforce the issue, the seats are gone...

No more talking, MCI motorhome, liability please, it ain't worth anything, quote please.

Shut the freak up about whatever else. It is none of their business until they are exposed to replacing it.

Time needs to be spent on the conversion, not this...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
1989 MCI 102c3 6v92TA Mechanical

Offline luvrbus

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2018, 05:55:37 PM »
Laws vary from state to state, here Az if don't carry insurance and it is in a data base they void your registration and since all law agencies use the same software to check the plates. If you are pulled over they tow the vehicle and you get a big fine.So I just put mine on the disabled list till I get ready to move it but I always call my agent and she makes sure the state knows it is insured.Liability insurance should not be hard to get if your paper work is up to the standards again it varies from state to state         
Life is short drink the good wine first

Offline boxcarOkie

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2018, 02:52:02 AM »

Progressive would be my last choice,AZ is not a state that glass coverage is mandatory in a policy so you pay extra I had 100.00 deductible on glass. I broke both windshields in Texas at the same time on our Trek ( large windshields $500 bucks ea)they made me pay the  deductible on both windshields I did then found me another Insurance Co      

Do a search on Progressive and you will find page after page of very unsatisfied consumers.  It took six weeks to tag my out of state bus that was already insured in Oklahoma.

Jus Sayin'

Offline buswarrior

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2018, 04:09:28 AM »
Unfortunately, forums are going the way of social media.

Anyone just types what their next door neighbour said the cat's cousin's mouse said, just before being eaten...

Facts get in the way of expression?

Come close, new busnuts, and listen carefully...

The DMV - not a source of legal advice, they are taught to fill in forms. They are a hindrance to this hobby. The Boards are full of horror stories made by these clerks...

The Trooper and lesser law enforcement officers - not a source of legal advice, they are taught to write tickets, and if they write them wrong, and you correct it in court, there is no performance review... the only exception is an open minded commercial enforcement trained officer, and that one is only going to get you half way. No cop is going to tell you what you can do, they slap a ticket on it, when they THINK you can't. Up to you to point out they THUNK wrong...

On what grounds would your conversion be accused of being a "bus" if you have a registration that says motorhome? You've said the seats are out, you aren't carrying people around in it.. so, how is it a bus, and what have you done wrong?

I spent my career correcting the messes that DMV and cops made who make $#!% up. These civil servants are not trained to have "opinions" nor are they paid to have any... but they sure do like giving them out...

Unfortunately, our hobby is too small and obscure for there to be much help, perhaps a good thing?

Back to the vehicle being converted, the use and registration is the principle, and it sounds like you are already there.

So, to ease your mind, go to your state laws, find the definitions of bus and motorhome, find that you indeed are fine, print it off so you can show the enthusiastic new trooper at the side of the road, then...

Go get some liability insurance, as described earlier in the thread.

Or let unqualified people empty your wallet, jump you thru hoops and talk you out of this silly idea of converting a coach?

Make it happen, pastor, I'm rooting for you!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior




Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
new project: 1995 MCI 102D3, Cat 3176b, Eaton Autoshift

Offline richard5933

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2018, 05:14:35 AM »
Don't disagree with what you said. My main point with regard to insurance is that just because a vehicle is tagged as a motor home doesn't mean the insurance company will agree. Push come to shove, if/when there is a claim on the policy they will look for any reason to deny the claim.

It's not the DMV that is of biggest concern, it's underwriting and the claims dept at the insurance company.

According to Wisconsin statutes, here are the requirements for having a vehicle classified as a motor home:


(6) "Motor home" means a motor vehicle designed to provide temporary living quarters built into as an integral part of,  or permanently attached to a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis or van. In addition to sleeping and dining facilities, the vehicle must contain permanently installed independent life support systems that provide at least 4 of the following facilities:
     (a) A potable water supply system including plumbing, a faucet and a sink, designed as either self-contained or to    be connected with an external water supply, or both;
     (b) Permanently installed cooking facilities;
     (c) A permanently installed ice box or refrigeration unit;
     (d) A permanently installed self-contained toilet;
     (e) A permanently installed 110-125 volt electrical power supply or L.P. gas supply or both; and
     (f) A permanently installed heating or air conditioning system, or both.


It is very easy to register a vehicle in Wisconsin without these things in place. However, the vehicle would not meet the statute's definition of a motor home. If/when there is a claim, there is a possibility that the insurance company would see that the vehicle does not meet the definition of motor home, claim insurance fraud, and deny the claim.

If the vehicle has these things in place, however crudely or preliminarily, that would be a different situation. Then it would just be up to underwriting to determine if they want to issue the policy at the onset. I was asked for photos for underwriting - they want to know beforehand what they are insuring. Makes sense to me given the quality of some DIY conversions out there.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108a-125 Custom Coach "Land Cruiser" (Sold)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (Former Bus)
1994 Airstream Excella 25-ft w/ 1999 Suburban 2500
Located in beautiful Wisconsin

Offline Oonrahnjay

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2018, 09:00:53 AM »
  windshield deductible from my insurance co $ 500.00

from my glass guy $ 375 installed

dave

       Don't tell 'em.  Just don't.
Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)

Offline Geoff

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 05:16:06 PM »
Okay, I agree that the minister should obey the law .  Until his bus meets State requirements for a non-commercial bus conversion, he must pay for commercial insurance.  If he plans on using the bus for his clergy after it is converted, he again must pay for a commercial vehicle tags and insurance.
Geoff
'82 RTS AZ

Offline buswarrior

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2018, 06:45:16 PM »
There is a God...

Some actual legislation quoted on BCM!! Thank you for this.

"Permanent" get a screw driver, a few screws and angle brackets. Just some little Old Testament rule observances. Remember, these are tax collectors evaluating your efforts, not religious authorities... fulfil the letter of the law, job done.

Insurance company would have to prove a direct connection between the motorhome inadequacies and the imagined disaster, in order to deny a claim. As best as it has been described so far, the disaster would be a driving error, where the administrative detail of registration is irrelevant.

There are far more stories of insurance companies abandoning their insureds than really happens, and remember, peeps who screw around and get caught, don't tell the truth in their story telling after the fact either...

Ever hear a guy brag he got caught by the IRS..., but you've heard lots of the opposite... unbalanced reporting...

I hope the parishioners are not going for a ride... your personal use only?

Otherwise, this is the wrong direction to be going.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior



 
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
new project: 1995 MCI 102D3, Cat 3176b, Eaton Autoshift

Offline Jcparmley

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2018, 07:37:44 PM »
This bus is for personal use only.  I'm not quite following why this forum or thread is like social media nor am I sure how anyone can be called out on making stuff up.  The reality is I could easily purchase insurance and drive the bus.  The problem is what happens if I was in an accident and the insurance company won't have my back.  Or worse yet they get sued and they come after me for not meeting the criteria of "Motorhome".   Progressive does suck, from my limited experience.  That's why I came onto this forum to ask your opinion.  I will keep working on finding a policy that will work.  Too bad other people don't understand what we are trying to do.  Too bad we all don't have half a million of disposable income to put down on a coach motor home.  Even if I did have the money I would still want to build it my way. 
1989 MCI 102c3 6v92TA Mechanical

Offline Jim Blackwood

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2018, 11:41:14 AM »
Sounds like meeting the statutory requirements would be pretty easy. It is a "laundry list". Take it item by item and determine the minimum requirement.

a) and d) are satisfied by the original bathroom (and please give me a good reason why not. Read what the statute says in plain English.)
The rest are satisfied as BusNut said, by angle brackets and screws. Hot plate, dorm fridge, ceramic heater, and a very rudimentary shore line. "Permanent" in the eyes of the law, means, a "Fixture", defined as being attached in such a way as to not be normally expected to be removed, or in other words screwed together in no more complex fashion than the simplest attachment in any S&S. Screws and angle brackets are perfectly appropriate for this and case law supports it.

Now, there is no standard that I am aware of that says what can and cannot be a permanent fixture. Therefore a ceramic heater and a hot plate does satisfy the letter of the law if it is properly "fixed" to the vehicle. A ceramic heater is a "heating system". Absent a definition of what constitutes an acceptable heating system, any device which heats and can be said to comprise a system satisfies the legal requirement. As the ceramic heater is composed of more than one element, it is a system. Same for the hot plate. Same for the sink, faucet, toilet, potable water system, and refrigerator or ice box. Note, an igloo cooler with a bag of ice bolted to the floor does comprise an ice box. The law does not address the sufficiency or the adequacy of the system. That is entirely the owner's concern as long as it does not impinge upon the public. As for the insurance company, they are required by law to comply with the statutory requirements. Otherwise they would pick and choose what individuals of the public they would insure and who they would not, so they must find other methods of achieving those goals than those covered by the statutes. Often they are able to do this, and they will try to do more than they are allowed by law to do. Unless you can back them into a corner. A cooperative agent goes a long way towards making that unnecessary, it's best to pick your fights carefully.

Jim
I saw it on the Internet. It MUST be true...

Offline buswarrior

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2018, 12:16:28 PM »
Old Testament, all the way.

Letter of the law, no more, no less.

Put on yer jewish cap, Jesus hasn't arrived at the party yet...

This is the gubbermint.

There's always a work-around, completely legal, completely fulfilling.

Pastor, you are fine, carry on.

The world of bus boards has changed a lot over the last 20 years, answers used to have a degree of literary discipline, footnote, reference and fact.

errors were corrected, and posts moderated.

Not no more.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
new project: 1995 MCI 102D3, Cat 3176b, Eaton Autoshift

Offline Branderson

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 12:57:59 PM »
Sounds like meeting the statutory requirements would be pretty easy. It is a "laundry list". Take it item by item and determine the minimum requirement.

a) and d) are satisfied by the original bathroom (and please give me a good reason why not. Read what the statute says in plain English.)
The rest are satisfied as BusNut said, by angle brackets and screws. Hot plate, dorm fridge, ceramic heater, and a very rudimentary shore line. "Permanent" in the eyes of the law, means, a "Fixture", defined as being attached in such a way as to not be normally expected to be removed, or in other words screwed together in no more complex fashion than the simplest attachment in any S&S. Screws and angle brackets are perfectly appropriate for this and case law supports it.

Now, there is no standard that I am aware of that says what can and cannot be a permanent fixture. Therefore a ceramic heater and a hot plate does satisfy the letter of the law if it is properly "fixed" to the vehicle. A ceramic heater is a "heating system". Absent a definition of what constitutes an acceptable heating system, any device which heats and can be said to comprise a system satisfies the legal requirement. As the ceramic heater is composed of more than one element, it is a system. Same for the hot plate. Same for the sink, faucet, toilet, potable water system, and refrigerator or ice box. Note, an igloo cooler with a bag of ice bolted to the floor does comprise an ice box. The law does not address the sufficiency or the adequacy of the system. That is entirely the owner's concern as long as it does not impinge upon the public. As for the insurance company, they are required by law to comply with the statutory requirements. Otherwise they would pick and choose what individuals of the public they would insure and who they would not, so they must find other methods of achieving those goals than those covered by the statutes. Often they are able to do this, and they will try to do more than they are allowed by law to do. Unless you can back them into a corner. A cooperative agent goes a long way towards making that unnecessary, it's best to pick your fights carefully.

Jim

 Agreed with everything in the bold.  The power would be my hardest thing I think to pass the test but I'm sure a lot of people in here would know how to help you.  Shoot, maybe a generator on hand would suffice.

p.s. I think buswarrior was just trying to say less is more when dealing with the DMV or Insurances. I don't think he was saying you are making things up.  Hard to tell tone over the net but he's helped a ton of people in here and I don't think he was trying to offend you.
- Brad

Offline Jcparmley

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 02:53:57 PM »
No worries. Bus warrior is a great help on these forums.  I spoke with Richards agent and she got me some basic liability.  I guess she only told them what they need to hear, so you all were correct when it comes with dealing with underwriting.  The more you explaine the more they get nervous.  Thanks for all the help.

1989 MCI 102c3 6v92TA Mechanical

Offline windtrader

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2018, 10:28:35 PM »
Just to offer some balance about what to divulge whist applying for a policy. Just be aware all for profit insurance companies are going to minimize payouts as they directly affect the bottom line. Just be careful that in the event of a claim that discrepancies between what is actually insured and what is on the policy pass the reasonably accurate test. For these old buses, there is likely less stringent review as these old beasts are so different and unique. Just be cautious so you don't get left with a claim denial letter.
Don F
1976 MCI/TMC MC-8 #1286
Fully converted
Bought 2017

Offline Wayne Lemmon

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Re: Insurance during bus build
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2019, 04:35:25 PM »
I am moving so I need to move my bus to my new home 300 miles away. I am still converting it so it does not qualify as a motor home yes. In the past I had progressive as my insurance so I called them. They said they that they no-longer insure converted buses. (The may sill continue with what is already insured).

I called many others with out any luck. One I called that handles high risk said that once a bus is modified, there is not an underwriter that will touch it.

I don't want to spend more money and time on something I will not be able to use.

Can I get just reliability insurance. I need help so I don't have to junk my hard work and money.

Any help would be appreciated.


 

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