Bus vs Super C

[chessie4905]

1/4" The brain automatically calculates the rise experienced and translates to the legs/feet.
Everyone has experienced catching a foot on stair tread edge at one time or the other. In majority of the time, a measurement check will show risers out of allowance range. Those other times, it is just being clumsy or old:)

[chessie4905]

I've seen several super C's in our travels this summer, one bus conversion and Quite a few Prevost conversions. hundreds of travel trailers 50-50 conventional vs 5th wheels, and several hundred class A's, half ou them huge, top of the line, Plus one semi pulling a large travel trailer. 6 to 10 skoolies. The booming rv market has really brought out a variety.

[windtrader]

When deciding to do a bus conversion, you can start right away with a OTR bus, pull the seats, and you have a immediate starting point for the conversion. It seems Super C is nearly always a box shell needs to be custom built first. Is there other ways to jump start building a Super C?


If a custom shell is needed, it seems the cost for building a Super C is more than starting with a bus. From my looking around, Super C conversions have less space and cost quite a bit more than DIY bus conversion.


Super C may be easier to maintain and keep dependable and reliable for frequent use but other than ease of service, bus conversions seem more attractive due to lower costs, easier conversion, and greater usable space. Main downsides are harder to find old parts and old mechanics to work on them. Since many are older too, probably less reliable.

[richard5933]

I have thought that a moving van would be great starting point. They have a box which is already as low as can be on the floor, usually have a granny attic over the cab, and often have side doors. Many are already air ride.

[chessie4905]

Nobody should consider a bus conversion, if they have to rely on others for drivetrain repairs. Should be at least able to pull trans or engine. Like Cliff says $30,000+  on a full rebuild. That includes labor of removing and installing engine, all fluids. Rebuilt Blower, replacement fuel and water pumps, oil pump, all bearings, rebuilt heads, gaskets, etc, etc. Remember at $130 + per hour, it adds up quickly.
 Sure, you can do it yourself for far less, only replace a few of the main components, your own labor, but does it come with a warranty if something fails?
Most younger persons don't  have the skills required unless trained in the military.
The newer electronic engines- you better have the scan tool or access to one and have the diagnostic skills and understand the workings of electronic engine control.
You start paying for servicing these issues will quickly empty your wallet.

[richard5933]

Nobody should consider a bus conversion, if they have to rely on others for drivetrain repairs. Should be at least able to pull trans or engine. ...

So you have just eliminated 99.99% of the population from owning a bus conversion.

This really seems like a stretch thinking that a bus conversion owner should have the ability to pull a trans or engine. What makes it any different than owning any other type of heavy vehicle, whether it be a semi or a motor home.

Repairs are expensive. Period. Sure, it's cheaper if you can do them yourself, but they are still not cheap. If having the ability to pull an engine were a necessity for owning a heavy vehicle there'd be far fewer people driving all sorts of things used as motor homes.

I realize that many enjoy doing the work themselves, but not all of us have the ability or desire to pull an engine (or do other heavy engine work) and are fine with paying to have it done. I'll do what I can handle safely and properly, and the rest will be done by the folks that have the training and equipment to get it done for me. True, not all can afford it but there are plenty that can.

Not being able to pull a trans or engine has not diminished my enjoyment of a bus conversion one bit.

[dtcerrato]

What Richard said...
Let's not forget our roots.
We all started somewhere.
Besides that is a haunting post for a forum & magazine named Bus Conversion Magazine. IMO

[chessie4905]

1% of 300,000,000. Lot less than that. The mechanical ability to do it if necessary and have at least the tools and can obtain equipment
Well then, have a lot of money for unexpected repairs. What will you do Richard if your engine requires a major rebuild? Say the 50dn gear fails and takes out the engine?
You are fortunate to find a low mile factory conversion. Most aren't  that fortunate. and use well worn chassis.
Sure it eliminates most, but thats why their aren't so many conversions done anymore.

[Jim Blackwood]

The real key is definitely finding that low mileage engine. Low miles on the entire bus is a plus but even if it's just the engine that has been replaced it's a big plus. The series 60 is good for about 300k miles before the bull gear must be checked for end play and if you catch it in time the repair is costly but not devastating. So based on what should be an initial inspection of any purchase of a S60 engine at least within 100k of acquiring it, who here is going to be really likely to put 300K on their RV? A few, but not really that many I would think, and if so not for several years. So it's possible to budget for those new bearings and the labor to install them. Then if the rest is in good shape you have a decent chance of going another 300k and that should just about do it. This is a million mile engine after all. Along the way there will be other maintenance items but no real surprises unless/until the tranny gives out. Or an axle. And both of those are pretty standard repairs.

So right there is a really big reason to start with a 4 stroke bus instead of an older one. You really can't compare a 2 stroke bus to a Super C and expect it to be a valid comparison unless your Super C also has the 2 stroke engine. Apples to Oranges. Besides, where are you going to find a 2 stroke bus these days that doesn't cost just about the same as a newer MCI with the S60? They've both exited the depreciation curve and are worth scrap value plus perception of worth. So the valid comparison is the 4 stroke bus against the Super C, both in the same price bracket, and if you do that I don't see any way that the bus doesn't come out on top.

But, I do like the 5th wheel moving van (Mayflower/United?) idea. That has potential. Like a box already built on a lowboy trailer. I would think it is an idea worth exploring. I think a conversion of one would take longer and cost more, but I expect you could garage your toad in the rear if you really wanted to.

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Jim

[luvrbus]

All 4 stroke engines in buses CAt,Cummins,Volvo and Detroit are called million mile engines but it cost the hell out of to reach the million mile mark,the bull gear is not the only thing on a series 60 that needs attention,they eat injectors like one would Rolaids,you are always dealing with fuel in the oil,they are a better engine though than the old 2 strokes by far   

[richard5933]

I guess my main observation recently on this forum is that it's truly amazing anyone would choose to enter the hobby and buy a bus conversion after reading some of the recent comments on the various threads.

Between the comments talking down the value of a bus conversion, the extreme cost of owning one, and now the extremely high technical skills some feel required to own a bus conversion it seems like we're doing a better job of scaring off would-be enthusiasts rather than honestly encouraging them.

I'm not trying to paint a false picture here - it's expensive to own and operate a bus conversion, without doubt. It takes a lot of maintenance, regardless of whether the owner does it all him/herself or farms it out. And, all the money put into the bus will likely not be recovered on the other end. I get all this.

But, there are MANY ways possible to accomplish what needs to be done to safely and enjoyably own a bus conversion. There is not just one way to do things.

True, my current bus is very low mileage and avoids many of the typical problems, but it still has problems. My first bus was one which saw at least half a million miles in its life, but it was well cared for and was quite reliable once we got some initial bugs worked out. There are good buses out there, and they don't all require a winning lottery ticket and a complete bus garage to own/operate.

[someguy]

A 6V92 overhaul kit is $2000.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/220423672040?hash=item33524650e8:g:LJgAAOSwszZa2f1f

I know it isn't a top of the line name brand kit, but let's face it - most of you are driving your buses less than 10,000 miles per year.  At that rate, this kit would last at least 10 years.

2 stroke GM diesels have been around for 70+ years now.  There are no big secrets to rebuilding them.  The shop manuals are readily available as are the tools.   There is no reason to spend $30K on a rebuilt engine.   That is just lunacy.   

The other side of this is that I doubt anyone doing a Super C is going to buy a new truck.   It too will have 500,000 - 1 million miles on it.  Modern 4 stroke diesel engines are miles and miles more reliable than a Jimmy, but there is a good chance the truck engine will still need a rebuild at some point. 

So then the conversation comes down to how difficult is it to rebuild a 3406 or S60 compared to a Jimmy.  And the answer is that there probably isn't a lot of difference.  The difference is that the Jimmy will need a rebuild every 150,000 miles versus a modern 4 stroke that will last at least 500K.   

And the other side of the coin is that no modern diesel engine is inexpensive to rebuild.  A Cummins ISB is probably the cheapest.  You can't even get parts for Ford 6.0 and 6.4s anymore.   A Ford 6.7 is worn out in 250,000 miles if you are working it and they are very expensive (for a pickup truck) to rebuild - $15K and up.

I stand by my statement that the best RV conversion platform is a modern coach with a Series 60.   

[someguy]

The real key is definitely finding that low mileage engine. Low miles on the entire bus is a plus but even if it's just the engine that has been replaced it's a big plus. The series 60 is good for about 300k miles before the bull gear must be checked for end play and if you catch it in time the repair is costly but not devastating. So based on what should be an initial inspection of any purchase of a S60 engine at least within 100k of acquiring it, who here is going to be really likely to put 300K on their RV?

I totally agree.

A few, but not really that many I would think, and if so not for several years. So it's possible to budget for those new bearings and the labor to install them. Then if the rest is in good shape you have a decent chance of going another 300k and that should just about do it. This is a million mile engine after all. Along the way there will be other maintenance items but no real surprises unless/until the tranny gives out. Or an axle. And both of those are pretty standard repairs.

Buses use truck differentials.   You can buy a new differential carrier (pumpkin) for a couple thousand dollars.   And get one with an air operated diff lock at the same time.

So right there is a really big reason to start with a 4 stroke bus instead of an older one. You really can't compare a 2 stroke bus to a Super C and expect it to be a valid comparison unless your Super C also has the 2 stroke engine. Apples to Oranges. Besides, where are you going to find a 2 stroke bus these days that doesn't cost just about the same as a newer MCI with the S60?

BINGO !

They've both exited the depreciation curve and are worth scrap value plus perception of worth. So the valid comparison is the 4 stroke bus against the Super C, both in the same price bracket, and if you do that I don't see any way that the bus doesn't come out on top.

I agree.

But, I do like the 5th wheel moving van (Mayflower/United?) idea. That has potential. Like a box already built on a lowboy trailer. I would think it is an idea worth exploring. I think a conversion of one would take longer and cost more, but I expect you could garage your toad in the rear if you really wanted to.

Good luck parking a long wheel base 5th wheel trailer in a modern RV park.   You'd have to slide the axles way forward or the trailer wheels won't make the radius of the turns in most parks.   Most 5th wheel RVs are 20-25 feet from the pin to the axles and the longer ones have trouble negotiating corners in older parks. 

Most stock moving vans are more like 35 feet from pin to axle.   And you can add a tractor with a bumper to pin of at least 20 feet to that.  That makes a bus look downright nimble. 

[someguy]

All 4 stroke engines in buses CAt,Cummins,Volvo and Detroit are called million mile engines but it cost the hell out of to reach the million mile mark,the bull gear is not the only thing on a series 60 that needs attention,they eat injectors like one would Rolaids,you are always dealing with fuel in the oil,they are a better engine though than the old 2 strokes by far

This has not been the experience in the trucking industry with pre emission engines.

[muldoonman]

1% of 300,000,000. Lot less than that. The mechanical ability to do it if necessary and have at least the tools and can obtain equipment
Well then, have a lot of money for unexpected repairs. What will you do Richard if your engine requires a major rebuild? Say the 50dn gear fails and takes out the engine?
You are fortunate to find a low mile factory conversion. Most aren't  that fortunate. and use well worn chassis.
Sure it eliminates most, but thats why their aren't so many conversions done anymore.

All it takes to run any bus is this. Wheather you can work on it or not.