Waterwetter for diesel coolant [Chasing MCI engine heat]

[plyonsMC9]

Hello bus folks!

A friend mentioned to me that they use Red Line Waterwetter in their race to lower temps.  Something about reducing water surface tension, etc.,    I had mentioned cooling is still an issue.  And I checked and saw Red Line has the same for heavy duty diesel engines. 

Has anyone tried this product?  I don't want to throw stuff in the engine which ends up harming it.  We do a lot to make the system run per spec.  But - if there is a benefit w/o causing problems, I'd certainly be interested.

Any thoughts?  Thank you!,

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-80213-Diesel-Wetter/dp/B000T9MRAI?th=1

[luvrbus]

When a diesel engine is overheating nothing you throw at will solve the problem till you find the source of the problem, what are calling warm on the series 60-11.1,190F to 210F is normal 

[plyonsMC9]

Thanks Cliff, yes Exactly!  Running out of things to throw at it!  At least I now have a solid temp gauge and sending unit, to where they exactly match the mechanical gauge & heat gun.  But after that temp gauge fix (yay!!  & thank you J&R Diesel) and replacing shutterstat ( tests good) & related seals, re-coring radiator, swapping out thermostats, water pump, monitoring trans temp, Bendix air valve replaced.  It still hit 230 going up from Fontana CA to Wrightwood, at night.  Steep grades, pulling the jeep, but that seems excessive. 

Looking for something to stave off some heat (Waterwetter or dry ice  )  while traveling.  I'm going to try the engine bay exhaust fans that the bus converter ( Vantare ) had installed back there - for whatever that's worth.

Whatever is left is the radiator fan clutch?  Going bonkers. Looked at it late last night, didn't seem the fan was running at full speed.  When the fan is at full / high speed the engine cools.  J&R also constructed a shutterstat bypass to keep the louvres open, and used in conjunction w/ the radiator fan test mode for maximum cooling.  That will be tested next as we go through California  - Desert Center in a couple of days at 114 deg.  Pulling the Wrangler. 

Thanks all, Kind Regards Phil

[luvrbus]

What is the turbo boost under a load ? if it is not getting enough boost a series 60 will warm up, and backpressure on the exhaust from the stupid muffler MCI used will heat one  it takes so little buildup in the muffler they used, the fan should be on high at 210F buy you a hand held non contact tachometer from Amazon with the strips and check the speed when it is cool and when it is 210F that will tell you if the fan is on high or low a fairly decent tachometer in from Amazon is under 30 bucks. On mine when it 1st started it would start on high fan and cycle to low in a few seconds with the Lining fan clutch but you may have a different fan clutch   

[plyonsMC9]

Good information - thank you Cliff.  I will look into these or ask for an assist to check these.  The muffler on our MC9 had only tiny slots to let the exhuast through - speaking of building up backpressure. Sounds like the DL3 may be of a similar construction.  Love the idea of the tachometer.  Going to work on that first.   

Best Regards, Phil

[Van]

What is the turbo boost under a load ? if it is not getting enough boost a series 60 will warm up, and backpressure on the exhaust from the stupid muffler MCI used will heat one  it takes so little buildup in the muffler they used, the fan should be on high at 210F buy you a hand held non contact tachometer from Amazon with the strips and check the speed when it is cool and when it is 210F that will tell you if the fan is on high or low a fairly decent tachometer in from Amazon is under 30 bucks. On mine when it 1st started it would start on high fan and cycle to low in a few seconds with the Lining fan clutch but you may have a different fan clutch   

 I would ditch that muffler to let it breathe and elliminate alot of heat in the engine compartment, add a resonator if you have to. Not trying to break any records while climbing the grades in the extremme heat out here also helps, watch your speed/rpm's and gear selection.

[Iceni John]

Years ago my bus overheated at the slightest provocation, so I replaced the entire cooling system (new high-efficiency core, new hydraulic fan motor and PS/hyd pump, new 9-blade fan, new solenoid directional control valve, new thermostats etc, installed a trans cooler to reduce the heatload into the coolant, moved the hyd cooler out of the rad's airflow, etc etc), but it made little difference.   What did help the most was having my engine completely rebuilt last year, when Dustin and I hot-tanked it to remove decades of scale and crud from the inside of the block.   Without that insulating layer between the coolant and block it now runs noticeably cooler than in the fifteen years I've owned it.   Removing the muffler, even though it was a low-restriction Donaldson with only 8dB of attenuation, also allows the engine to breath better than ever.   Obviously hot-tanking a block isn't a practical way to make an engine run cooler, but it made me realize that there's a limit to what can result after attending to the entire cooling system, such as I previously did.

I think that adding water wetters will give very minimal gains, if any at all.   In theory they may work slightly, but in practice I think any benefit is completely masked by the myriad other factors that contribute to engines inevitably running hotter when they get older.   I would also be wary of adding something to the coolant:  what if it causes the silicates to drop out of suspension, or worse?   You could then end up worse off than before.

I have a hand-held optical tachometer bought from our friends at Harbor Fright, and it works great to know exactly how fast the fan is turning.   Well worth it, even though I've actually used it very little.   It's like my new articulating borescope:  I've used it only twice, but it's the only way to do some rarely-needed jobs.

John     

[freds]

That will be tested next as we go through California  - Desert Center in a couple of days at 114 deg.  Pulling the Wrangler. 

Thanks all, Kind Regards Phil

Maybe you should go at 1AM?

[plyonsMC9]

Hi John, wow!  Great information. I've been slowly going through some of those steps, so I appreciate your recap for sure.  And the engine would have decades of buildup, but the coach  was never on a commercial route, coming straight from the factory to Vantare.  So IIRC it has around 150K miles.  Something for me to consider re rebuild- -

And I'm convinced - no watterwetter!  Spent too much time & $$ to get the setup to spec.  Thank you!

Will try the tach out in a couple of days.  And travel with it as well.  I'm thinking if the fan clutch isn't fully working then it may not help to downshift - but that's some wild guesswork on my part.  More info soon..

Yes Fred - 1a not a bad idea.  I just need to convince the spouse about that one.   

Take care all! Phil

[luvrbus]

There won't be scale build up on a series 60 @ 150,000 miles they are just getting into their stride, a total different design than a 2 cycle DD those are wet sleeves from the top to the bottom not just the 2 inches on top, you will find the problem, if it wasn't for the 3 year backlog I would help you

[Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM]

I guess there is the remote possibility that you have what we call the "Billy Van Hagen" effect, where somewhere in your cooling system, the system is plugged up either totally or partially in the engine itself or in the cooling system.  There could be leftover rags, or debris stuck someplace in the system that is impeding the flow of coolant.  I personally know no way to test for this, short of removing the engine and dismantling everything. But someone out there may know of a way to force coolant or water thru your radiator system to see if the full flow is completely flowing thru your system because any blockage could be causing an overheating system.  Right?

I think you already replaced the water pump if I remember, but if not, is there a possibility that the impella is slipping on the woodruff key or whatever locks it into place and is slipping so it is not pushing the total volume of water through there to cool the entire system?

Also, someone once told me that if your transmission is overheating, it could cause your engine to overheat too.  So maybe also consider that?

Just tossing out ideas, as I know you have tried a lot of tests already.

[luvrbus]

For the life of me I cannot find the automatic shutdown high temperature for a 111 my series 60-12.7 DDEC IV in the truck it would shut down at 228F and reduce power @224F and he is reading 230F.

If you need to add coolant on a regular basis with no visible leaks, then a compression leak into the cooling system comes into play,those engine had a service bulletin issued for new head bolts to stop that

[Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM]

Here you go Phil.  Maybe this is what you need in your bus. 

[Van]

Here you go Phil.  Maybe this is what you need in your bus. 

 Uhhhh! Care to share the price with him Gary? Better be sitting down Phil when he tells ya!🤣😆

[chessie4905]

In my dads 4104, he used Nalcool, as long as he had it. And that was about 150,000 miles worth.